Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Endrism]

Scarf Lando-T is definitely a thing of the past. I think Pult had a big part in SpDef Lando becoming meta with it able to tank shadow balls and knock off in return.

On another topic, I wanna talk about an item war I've seen lately and I wanna gauge peoples thoughts about it.

vs
For the longest time Leftovers reigned supreme as a reliable way to recover just a little bit of HP every turn. Recently however, I've seen an uptick in Shell Bell over Leftovers. Leftovers recovering a flat 1/16th of your HP every turn, but Shell Bell varies based off what you hit and how hard you hit. It seems that some people are using it over Leftovers when its a pokemon like Hydreigon who uses its bulk to check things, but also hits hard with a 3 Attacks + Roost Shell Bell set that can actually outheal leftovers!

There are some crazy shell bell calcs, my favorite being the fact that Mienshao OHKOing a Blissey with CC recovers 1/3rd of its HP, THATS CRAZY. A free regenerator for slapping a blissey could be amazing for some pokemon. Even Hydreigon with Dark Pulse will hit Blissey hard enough to recover 4-5% which is almost a leftovers amount, and does recover more than leftovers with Earth Power on Pex, and 12% against Tran! So my question:

Do you think Shell Bell has a good enough niche to justify using over Leftovers?
also,
Do you have any other items you use that you think are highly underrated?

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Yeah, being slower than scarf lele isn't exactly fun. What makes it good is definitely the surprise factor, though. I run SR on my scarf lando, so I can set up rocks early and bluff defensive, but then surprise them with a scarf lando.
Double Dance Lando seems cool, I might try that out. Defensive investment to avoid a 2HKO from Pult shadow ball would be a good benchmark, plus enough to not die to sd weavile ice shard.

Fwiw while scarf lando is on the lower end of viable scarfers and not really a serious thing anymore I do think that no matter what set there's always gonna be a "hmm I wonder what set Lando is running" even if defensive is just rocks vs defog or toxic vs knock off, so while the surprise factor may only be a 1 turn kind of thing if that 1 turn really counts it can put things in your favor since being even just slightly less exploitable than other scarfers temporarily can be nice. However, yeah, being a scarfer that's outsped by Lele, Kartana, and Blacephalon isn't exactly great. If I wanted a "slower" scarfer I'd run modest scarf Lele cause it's really funny. I like SD offensive Lando a lot as a surprise factor because the stone edge actually catches a lot of people off guard (if you edge before SD ofc, setting up usually gives a hint that it's running edge lol). Gen 8 almost had me forgetting that Lando has edgequake coverage

Spdef Lando is in a really interesting place right now for me. Now that specs pult isn't as much the "big" thing as it used to be I wonder what's next for Lando or if spdef is gonna continue to allow it to blanket check so much that it just sticks around for the rest of the generation.

 

[blooclipse]

Spdef Lando is in a really interesting place right now for me. Now that specs pult isn't as much the "big" thing as it used to be I wonder what's next for Lando or if spdef is gonna continue to allow it to blanket check so much that it just sticks around for the rest of the generation.

I think SpD lando will stick around because it has really good utility checking the electrics along with Pult. It also can work as an interim switch to a lot of special attackers. I think both PDef and SpDef will be good depending on the team, along with offensive variants.

 

[blooclipse]

Scarf Lando-T is definitely a thing of the past. I think Pult had a big part in SpDef Lando becoming meta with it able to tank shadow balls and knock off in return.

On another topic, I wanna talk about an item war I've seen lately and I wanna gauge peoples thoughts about it.

vs
For the longest time Leftovers reigned supreme as a reliable way to recover just a little bit of HP every turn. Recently however, I've seen an uptick in Shell Bell over Leftovers. Leftovers recovering a flat 1/16th of your HP every turn, but Shell Bell varies based off what you hit and how hard you hit. It seems that some people are using it over Leftovers when its a pokemon like Hydreigon who uses its bulk to check things, but also hits hard with a 3 Attacks + Roost Shell Bell set that can actually outheal leftovers!

There are some crazy shell bell calcs, my favorite being the fact that Mienshao OHKOing a Blissey with CC recovers 1/3rd of its HP, THATS CRAZY. A free regenerator for slapping a blissey could be amazing for some pokemon. Even Hydreigon with Dark Pulse will hit Blissey hard enough to recover 4-5% which is almost a leftovers amount, and does recover more than leftovers with Earth Power on Pex, and 12% against Tran! So my question:

Do you think Shell Bell has a good enough niche to justify using over Leftovers?
also,
Do you have any other items you use that you think are highly underrated?

I have literally not seen anything running shed shell personally, but I may start running shed shell hydrei!
I was running lefties hydrei w/only draco meteor as its attacking move, I think considering how much damage that draco does, it probably outheals lefties. You even get a couple HP every time you u-turn

 

[Ruft]

I think Shell Bell is virtually never worth using. You never see anyone use it, and for good reason. It only restores 1/8 of the holder's damage dealt, so in order to be comparable to Leftovers, which heals 1/16 of the holder's total HP each turn, the Shell Bell holder would need to deal around 50% of the average foe's health in damage each turn. Even in this unrealistic scenario (you don't think people have Hydreigon switch-ins, like Fairy-types?), Leftovers is still better, since it, unlike Shell Bell, also restores the holder's health when it switches in or uses a non-attacking move. Not to mention that the only Pokemon that deal that much damage every turn (which realistically does not include Hydreigon) are most likely better off running an offensively oriented item (or Boots) anyway (or, more likely, require such an item to do that much damage in the first place).

The only possible cases where Shell Bell would ever seem worth using to me are FEAR strategies (unviable gimmick) or to specifically counterteam a Blissey (which isn't incredibly common, and even then).

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

I think Shell Bell is virtually never worth using. You never see anyone use it, and for good reason. It only restores 1/8 of the holder's damage dealt, so in order to be comparable to Leftovers, which heals 1/16 of the holder's total HP each turn, the Shell Bell holder would need to deal around 50% of the average foe's health in damage each turn. Even in this unrealistic scenario (you don't think people have Hydreigon switch-ins, like Fairy-types?), Leftovers is still better, since it, unlike Shell Bell, also restores the holder's health when it switches in or uses a non-attacking move. Not to mention that the only Pokemon that deal that much damage every turn (which realistically does not include Hydreigon) are most likely better off running an offensively oriented item (or Boots) anyway (or, more likely, require such an item to do that much damage in the first place).

The only possible cases where Shell Bell would ever seem worth using to me are FEAR strategies (unviable gimmick) or to specifically counterteam a Blissey (which isn't incredibly common, and even then).

Actually theres one user of it that might be worth it, Blaziken, dude kills itself if it clicks an attack while ohkoing something most of the time and with shell bell it outheals its recoil basically making Flare Blitz the same as Glacial Lance and making most teams counter play (making it kill itself with helmet or pure recoil) into setup fodder and free kills. Is it better than lorb or balloon? ehh... mehh.. not really but it is definetly something to look at with some screens team

 

[blooclipse]

I think Shell Bell is virtually never worth using. You never see anyone use it, and for good reason. It only restores 1/8 of the holder's damage dealt, so in order to be comparable to Leftovers, which heals 1/16 of the holder's total HP each turn, the Shell Bell holder would need to deal around 50% of the average foe's health in damage each turn. Even in this unrealistic scenario (you don't think people have Hydreigon switch-ins, like Fairy-types?), Leftovers is still better, since it, unlike Shell Bell, also restores the holder's health when it switches in or uses a non-attacking move. Not to mention that the only Pokemon that deal that much damage every turn (which realistically does not include Hydreigon) are most likely better off running an offensively oriented item (or Boots) anyway (or, more likely, require such an item to do that much damage in the first place).

The only possible cases where Shell Bell would ever seem worth using to me are FEAR strategies (unviable gimmick) or to specifically counterteam a Blissey (which isn't incredibly common, and even then).

Shell bell could be possibly usable. I was just saying how i felt like it would be fun to try out!
There's a few specific scenarios that it could be useful in depending on team.

 

[odt]

Low HP mons which can switch in to some moves but don't like to show leftovers can benefit from Shell Bell over leftovers. I've tried some stuff in OU but honestly found it pretty limiting in most situations, even when given a lot of forethought to the set and team. The most success I've had with it with a RestTalk Urshifu of all things. It did enough to keep him healthy for switching in repeatedly on Weavile and made him surprisingly difficult to get rid of without a super effective hit.
Still a pretty trash item though, 1/5 of the HP recovered wouldn't even be enough to make it widely viable imo, especially in this Bulky Offense metagame.

 

[blooclipse]

Low HP mons which can switch in to some moves but don't like to show leftovers can benefit from Shell Bell over leftovers. I've tried some stuff in OU but honestly found it pretty limiting in most situations, even when given a lot of forethought to the set and team. The most success I've had with it with a RestTalk Urshifu of all things. It did enough to keep him healthy for switching in repeatedly on Weavile and made him surprisingly difficult to get rid of without a super effective hit.
Still a pretty trash item though, 1/5 of the HP recovered wouldn't even be enough to make it widely viable imo, especially in this Bulky Offense metagame.

Yeah, it seems like a waste of an itemslot. Unless youre just OHKOing everything, I doubt that its extremely useful as much as lefties are.

 

[Smashburn]

Low HP mons which can switch in to some moves but don't like to show leftovers can benefit from Shell Bell over leftovers. I've tried some stuff in OU but honestly found it pretty limiting in most situations, even when given a lot of forethought to the set and team. The most success I've had with it with a RestTalk Urshifu of all things. It did enough to keep him healthy for switching in repeatedly on Weavile and made him surprisingly difficult to get rid of without a super effective hit.
Still a pretty trash item though, 1/5 of the HP recovered wouldn't even be enough to make it widely viable imo, especially in this Bulky Offense metagame.

Defensive RestShifu new meta

I'm curious, though. Could you really get away with a bulky Urshifu in this meta, and is the opportunity cost worth it? It's immediate speculation but 100 / 100 bulk is surprisingly usable, even with middling SpD.

 

[RaikouLover]

Storm Zone and I, Pinkacross are declaring war on Stall. Stall has seen a massive increase in usage recently, in all levels of play. Edrala, the current ladder Stall king, reached 200 ELO above #2 mere days ago. Stall utilizes Protect on a variety of pokemon to counter Future Sight, making it unbeatable for many teams. Stall fishes for good matchups, removes almost all thinking and planning from the game, and takes forever. I beseech you all to join us in this battle to put Stall back where it belongs: an inconsistent, crappy, not-worth-it playstyle that will no longer plague the OU ladderers. To do this, we need to start anti-stalling our teams. This thread will tell you how to play against Stall, what cores destroy Stall, and give some anti-Stall teams as a reference. Together, we can kill Stall. When Stall players decide to match up fish after today, their line will get caught up on a log.

Anti-Stall Cores:
These are some cores that are great for beating Stall, but also good in general and threatening against a wide variety of playstyles. Note that there are other cores that break Stall, but these are some of the most applicable.

1. Future Sight + Setup

+

Future Sight + Swords Dance Kartana / Swords Dance Bisharp / Swords Dance Weavile / Swords Dance Landours-Therian, and others. Many stalls rely on Protect to manage Future Sight, but often can’t take on certain types of setup unless they are dealt with immediately. This is a fatal flaw in all Stall teams. Future Sight + Teleport users are ideal, but Galarian Slowking can also work. Note that Future Sight + Choice Band Kartana can also be quite effective.

2. Victini + Tapu Koko

+

Heavy Duty Boots Victini with Will-O-Wisp, Bolt Strike, U-Turn, and V-Create is a very strong pokemon in general but this core also decimates many Stalls. Particularly when paired with Future Sight, this core has no walls whatsoever.

3. Crawdaunt and Volcanion Rain

/

+

Choice Band Crabhammer in the Rain ruins everything. Crunch, Knock Off, and Aqua Jet work well for the next 3 slots so even no-item or previously knocked Toxapex drops. This super powered Aqua Jet is also a nightmare for more offensive teams to deal with. Choice Specs Volcanion on Rain is also near unwallable.

4. Tapu Lele

Many Tapu Lele sets threaten Stall. Life Orb with Calm Mind, Psyshock, Moonblast / Draining Kiss and Focus Blast notably ruins many Stall teams. Heavy Duty Boots or Assault Vest sets with Future Sight and Thunderbolt are also very threatening to many Stalls. Choice Specs is also great, though all Tapu Lele sets are walled by Shedinja (other than Specs Shadow Ball, which also gets Jirachi).

5. Choice Band Tyranitar

Choice Band Tyranitar with Stone Edge, Crunch, Ice Punch, and a filler move like Assurance, Heavy Slam, or Fire Punch runs through 100% of Stall teams. It also auto kills Shedinja, which is nice. Tyranitar is also a great Ghost resist that invalidates Blacephalon and helps against Zapdos, so it’s not too hard to fit onto a team.

6. Future Sight + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

+

Urshifu can’t be Protected on due to Unseen Fist, making this pair very strong. Choice Band even lets Urshifu OHKO many usual Protect pokemon. This core is vulnerable to Shedinja, although you can run Flamethrower over Slack Off on Slowbro/Slowking to catch Shedinja on the switch.

7. Beat Up

/

Choice Banded Weavile and Bisharp with Beat Up are extremely threatening, able to 2HKO Toxapex and threaten walls like Buzzwole and Tapu Fini with Iron Head from Bisharp and Poison Jab and Triple Axel from Weavile. If these are played well and the team you’re using has a strong Beat Up, these two can be devastating. Stall, and every other team, really has no answer.

8. Alakazam

+

Nasty Plot Alakazam with Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Expanding Force absolutely runs through Stall. Most Stalls just lose to the pressure it puts on. I recommend Focus Sash, which helps Alakazam be more consistent against other playstyles, but Life Orb can be used to pack an extra punch against bulkier teams.

9. Galarian Zapdos

Choice Band and Protective Pads Taunt both work well, Choice Band a bit more so. Galarian Zapdos is a great pokemon in general, but the way it forces Stall teams to either deal with having hazards up or taking on a +2 Choice Band Galarian Zapdos puts on immense pressure. Rocks, Spikes, and Galarian Zapdos is a recipe to defeat many Stalls.

10. Taunt Tornadus

Both Taunt with Nasty Plot and Taunt Knock Off sets are very threatening against Stall teams. Just make sure to run 8 HP on Nasty Plot Taunt sets so they reliably beat Blissey.

11. Guts

/

Conkeldurr and Heracross are difficult to fit onto a team, but they both shred Balance and Stall. Close Combat Conkeldurr in particular ruins Stall when used alongside Facade and Knock Off. There is simply no wall. Conkeldurr’s Mach Punch provides very useful priority, making it a bit easier to fit onto a team than Heracross.

12. Mold Breaker

/

Mold Breaker setup pokemon can’t be stopped by Unaware walls, and they also ignore Shedinja’s Wonder Guard. This makes them very threatening to Stall. SD Excadrill can work pretty well on a Hazard Stack, it gives dual utility of Rapid Spin and being an Electric immunity, very solidly answering Tapu Koko and Regieleki. Haxorus is harder to fit but it ruins many bulky teams with Life Orb and a Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Poison Jab, and Scale Shot.

13. Trick

/

+

Tricking, specifically Choice Scarf (although Choice Specs, Choice Band, Tricky Barb, and Black Sludge can all be effective) can threaten Stall immensely. However, Sticky Hold Gastrodon shuts down almost every Trick user, making this a somewhat inconsistent way of countering Stall.

There are many other ways to beat Stall than the ones mentioned here, these are simply some of the most common and easily implemented. Feel free to be creative when crushing Stall! Weird stuff like Taunt Jellicent and Nasty Plot Alolan Raichu also ruins Stall.

Anti-Stall Teams:
I recommend trying to build your own anti-Stall teams using the cores above-- more variation of anti-Stall teams will make it impossible for Stall to prepare for-- but this can help you get started! These teams all ruin most Stalls.

- Beat Up Bisharp Offense: https://pokepast.es/7d52906dcd563138

- Future Sight + SD Bisharp: https://pokepast.es/4ee4f39edee5c578

- Alakazam Psyspam: https://pokepast.es/e822de67c9b3de96

- Taunt NP Tornadus Rain: https://pokepast.es/17c46e18102c09c8

- Regieleki Rain: https://pokepast.es/33cdf94c2813cb1f

- Galarian Zapdos Hazard Stack: https://pokepast.es/4ded35a1948b16a9

- Crawdaunt Rain: https://pokepast.es/c54cef3af3edaf0e

- Magnezone + Kartana: https://pokepast.es/9d0a1b51a58fc6d5

- Blaziken HO: https://pokepast.es/fb752976d084784f

How to Play Against Stall: written by Storm Zone

“ok so vs stall teams they will make whatever risks and sacrifices to defeat your breaker so that they can wall the rest of your team, preserving the threats to their team is important, remember when there is a stallbreaker alive that threatens their defensive core, make sure it only comes in on a teleport or a u-turn, because more often than not they can be aggressive and hit you on the switch”

Put this emblem in your signature to show support! Our goal is to educate ladder players on how to build anti-Stall teams to hold back the rise of Stall play and return to a more competitive, thoughtful metagame. Insert this on your signature through this link “http://zupimages.net/up/22/13/8gag.jpg” I recommend using 120 px size. Click "insert image," then insert that http link in the URL box that comes up. To resize the photo, click on it and the size adjustment will come up.

I approve and support everything in this message. Thank you Pinkacross !!!

I have noticed more thick teams on the ladder recently. Even if not full stall I do see a lot of double and triple regen cores or 4 walls + 1 breaker + 1 sweeper kind of teams.

What always helps me is I personally design my teams with double breaking cores in mind. Sometimes even 3. I am an older player so I don’t have time for 100+ turn battles. I’d rather just go nuclear on fat teams and try to figure out how to beat offense than vice versa.

For rain, I have extensively used cores such as

Genie (NP Tornadus-T / NP Thundurus-T) + Crawdaunt
Togekiss + Crawdaunt
Volcanion + Crawdaunt
Tapu LeLe + Barraskewda + Volcanion

So much fun !!!

 

[odt]

Defensive RestShifu new meta

I'm curious, though. Could you really get away with a bulky Urshifu in this meta, and is the opportunity cost worth it? It's immediate speculation but 100 / 100 bulk is surprisingly usable, even with middling SpD.

It's incredibly specific, but if you have a huge Weavile/Bisharp/Melmetal weak but still want some offensive presence it's well work checking out. He also tends to stomp on random lower tiers too. Urshifu does RestTalk pretty well because of his 2 brutal stab options, decent stats/resistances on the physical side and decent speed tier with some investment. Not something you'd build a team around, but he's definitely a more versatile mon than we generally give him credit for.

On the topic of underused items, how do people here feel about Metronome? I used it quite a lot on status/pivot heavy teams paired with HexPult and I was quite surprised how quickly it could gain momentum.

 

[Xenocide88]

On the topic of underused items, how do people here feel about Metronome? I used it quite a lot on status/pivot heavy teams paired with HexPult and I was quite surprised how quickly it could gain momentum.

I think it's a cool item for sure, but it feels like a) you really need to construct your team around the set to see it succeed, and b) the candidates in OU definitely need more exploring. Dragapult, Lele, Blacephalon, and Volcanion all stand out as decent possibilities (although the Hex Draga needs the most support in status from teammates).

Edit: Important to note that basically all the potential metronome users I listed don't like swapping in and out of hazards, so good hazard support also feels like a must.

 

[Endrism]

Chapter 1: The Fire and the Flames



Welcome back to the Silvally Files. A smogon chain where I look through every Silvally form to see if any of them could have OU Viability.
To see the Prologue where I discussed my thoughts before experimentation, go here:
Yay this isn't dead! Took me a while to truly get the ball rolling, but through random draw up first is Silvally-Fire!

Disclaimer: I am not a high ladder player, so my opinions may not be 100% correct and are just my observations from usage. If you like the project, I welcome anyone to experimenting and report your own findings!

When tasked with using Silvally-Fire, theres really only 1 archetype where I felt it had a place, Sun!
So in combination with Torkoal and some sun mons I used this moveset:

Silvally-Fire @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Flame Charge / Parting Shot

Now I know it seems weird to use Flame Charge AND Multi Attack, seeing how I could use this slot for another offensive move like Crunch, or utility like Thunder Wave, and while those options worked perfectly fine, I went with Flame Charge due to the sweep potential once set up in Sun. Parting Shot is obvious and can swap around when Tran comes in. For a review of what I thought before the test:

"Pyro Ball before Pyro Ball, Silvally gets access to a very powerful fire STAB able to wipe the floor with things like Corviknight and even can OHKO Clef at +2! If it's Unaware Clef it gets 2HKOd after rocks. It CAN 2HKO Pex with Adamant +2 Thunder Fangs, but thats a high roll so watch out for Pex. As always Lando's Intimidate can cause some issues for you, but SpDef Lando can still be 2HKOd by Ice Fang. This was almost a yes, but just a few checks that worry me that pretty much require an SD to handle."

So when writing that, my moron brain forgot that it got Psychic Fangs, so the Thunder Fang point with Pex is irrelevant due to Psychic Fangs just being better. With +2 Psychic Fangs the 2HKO is no longer a high roll needed, and is a clean and easy 2HKO even with Black Sludge. Otherwise this ended up being on the nose. See the big problem with Silvally-Fire is even though it puts huge pressure on the opponent with literally Pyro Ball, it suffers from the complete lack of Heatran coverage. Unless you wanted to use Reversal which... no, Silvally has to use Psychic Fangs to do a solid 14% to Heatran. Parting Shot can help with this, but on a Sun team it was more about utilizing Lando or any others to weaken it enough to be in range of Psychic Fangs.

Sun boosted Multi Attacks are deadly, even at +0 it applies such incredible offensive pressure, making up for its lackluster 95 Attack with Sun Boosts and literally Pyro Ball to 2HKO a lot more than you think you can, and whatever you can't 2HKO usually can be set up on like Slowking. Once Silvally is +2 ATK +1 SPE its over. It shread everything barring Heatran in the sun like its nothing. Resisted Multi Attacks still OHKO Pult at +2, and even if you don't get to +2, just coming in on Ferrothorns applies huge pressure the same way Victini can, forcing progress in the game with strong Multi Attacks. Overall Silvally is a decent sun user.

Its magnum opus is being a extremely good blanket check to Weavile. As Knock Off is its strongest move and it is a roll to 3HKO. Flame Charge in the Sun is an easy OHKO and it uses it to gain momentum to weaken another mon or maybe KO something. Banded Weavile CAN be a problem, but 100% vs 100%, Silvally wins every time without fail.

REPLAYS

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572664547 Silvally cleans up against Demon Registeel and Rillaboom
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572670354 Gusty predictions nets 2 kills for Silvally
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572710600 Silvally uses Slowking to setup and OHKOs Pult.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572722085 Only 62% from Lele Psyshock.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572725964 Big Offensive pressure, although Thundo was 100% MVP :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572735617 Silvally clutches.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1572741429-4fx0mg1iyu1dkfjgl9tkl8r98noy3bupw Multi-Attack spam + gutsy predictions wins the game

Overall, it has its faults, but as a Sun user Silvally runs a really strong Sun Boosted Pyro Ball able to apply massive offensive pressure over the course of a game and claim a few kills. Since no other Silvally has been reviewed, obviously this takes the top spot with a solid B tier, fun niche, probably not worth ranking in the full viability rankings.
(The tiering will be in relative to each other, not the overall metagame)

(will post viability chart later, but its kinda worthless to do it with just 1 mon lol.)

EXTRA UNUSED SET

I had thought about using a defensive set kind of like how people run Arcanine sometimes, but without good recovery and Intimidate, it just feels lackluster looking at the calcs other than the Weavile calcs and I ended up not going through with it. If you're interested I'll put the set here and you can see if you can prove me wrong.

Silvally-Fire @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Defog / Thunder Wave
- Parting Shot
- Rest / Thunder Wave / Defog

As a fun treat, I'll post the RNG and show what to expect in Chapter 2:

Thanks for reading this installment of The Silvally Files!​

 

[Jean-Actimel]

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport?
It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time.

All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters.
Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport?
It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time.

All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters.
Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

Honestly.... maybe? Like if this were the pre DLC Clefable meta I'd be potentially inclined to agree with you about teleport but I don't really think it's a huge thing to have to play around, especially now that FuturePort stabilized and it's not as OP as it was once thought to be. The fact that you can get taunted out of teleporting is I think a pretty good thing and the only mons that can really afford to use it struggle to generate momentum in other ways, so I don't feel that it's overpowered or unhealthy for the meta. When I see the best users of teleport like stuff like Slowbro I never feel like it poses an advantage for the user that's unfair per se

I think that the pre-tundra metas were pretty bad and I think it's given gen 8 OU a pretty bad reputation since there's still a lot of the sentiment that the entire meta is just fat pivots and teleport and "boots spam" or whatever and I honestly think that a lot of it was new toy syndrome now that things have really begun to stabilize. I wouldn't be opposed to teleport just being standard priority since even drypassing is really strong in stuff like ADV OU. I also think regenerator is a bit overtuned of an ability but maybe that's neither here nor there

 

[Lord Xen III]

i like spdef lando because in a pinch it could wall

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport?
It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time.

All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters.
Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

teleport itself has the cost of forcing you to take a hit just like slow u turn does, and unlike u turn doesn't afford you any chip damage on the enemy.

With teleport's practical distribution , you are only running it on very slow and bulky pivots/walls which , if they learned u turn instead , would pretty consistently have slow u turns anyway.

However the negative priority on teleport means that opposing walls of comparable speeds will lose initiative in the pivoting battle, but in practice this means mostly slowtwin mirror matches as they are both slower than the other two main teleport users in blissey/chansey and clefable.


Now what's the benefit of a consistently slow teleport , it means you can bring your breakers in safely without risking a double switch where if predicted incorrectly, your breakers eats a knock off, a crippling status move , or chip damage.

The pivot takes that damage or status instead , which is normally balancing because most pivots normally don't like being statused or chipped because after a while they are forced to heal and sacrifice momentum.


However slowbro is the biggest abuser of this as while chansey and most clefable can manage status due to natural cure and magic guard , they need to waste turns and give up momentum to heal once they take too much chip, while slowbro doesn't have that issue , due to regenerator , nearly as much. So useful is regenerator is that many slowtwins can afford not to run slack off even if not completely ideal.

So slowbro is an ideal pivot since it can switch into lots of attacks , almost always slow u turn , and make almost any chip it takes irrelevant. And this is exacerbated in a metagame and generation that introduced heavy duty boots to boot. Thus slowbro and slowking are the ultimate momentum generators for bulky offensive and balance teams, and when combining this with their future sight support it's no surprise they are menacing and have at several points been considered a serious issue , having enabled lots of the trouble makers banned earlier in the generation, such as Zamazenta and Urshifu Dark .


So is it really a teleport issue, or a slowtin issue ? As blissey and chansey have seen better days due to their general passivity and teleport clef can't run softboiled this gen.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

i like spdef lando because in a pinch it could wall

teleport itself has the cost of forcing you to take a hit just like slow u turn does, and unlike u turn doesn't afford you any chip damage on the enemy.

With teleport's practical distribution , you are only running it on very slow and bulky pivots/walls which , if they learned u turn instead , would pretty consistently have slow u turns anyway.

However the negative priority on teleport means that opposing walls of comparable speeds will lose initiative in the pivoting battle, but in practice this means mostly slowtwin mirror matches as they are both slower than the other two main teleport users in blissey/chansey and clefable.


Now what's the benefit of a consistently slow teleport , it means you can bring your breakers in safely without risking a double switch where if predicted incorrectly, your breakers eats a knock off, a crippling status move , or chip damage.

The pivot takes that damage or status instead , which is normally balancing because most pivots normally don't like being statused or chipped because after a while they are forced to heal and sacrifice momentum.


However slowbro is the biggest abuser of this as while chansey and most clefable can manage status due to natural cure and magic guard , they need to waste turns and give up momentum to heal once they take too much chip, while slowbro doesn't have that issue , due to regenerator , nearly as much. So useful is regenerator is that many slowtwins can afford not to run slack off even if not completely ideal.

So slowbro is an ideal pivot since it can switch into lots of attacks , almost always slow u turn , and make almost any chip it takes irrelevant. And this is exacerbated in a metagame and generation that introduced heavy duty boots to boot. Thus slowbro and slowking are the ultimate momentum generators for bulky offensive and balance teams, and when combining this with their future sight support it's no surprise they are menacing and have at several points been considered a serious issue , having enabled lots of the trouble makers banned earlier in the generation, such as Zamazenta and Urshifu Dark .


So is it really a teleport issue, or a slowtin issue ? As blissey and chansey have seen better days due to their general passivity and teleport clef can't run softboiled this gen.

Yeah I tend to think that teleport is balanced by the power level of the wallbreakers it can bring in and can only be as OP as what it enables. As of right now I don't think it's broken or unhealthy since the most unhealthy thing right now would be Weavile (which doesn't even necessarily need that much pivoting support to perform fwiw but it does like it). I like that teleport allows for me to get mileage out of Nidoking and Tyranitar wallbreaker sets since they're otherwise rather unwieldy. I think that it can act as both a strategy for fat teams but also as counterplay against them to bring in things to go all battering ram. There's also the fact that while Slowbro was arguably OP for a bit nowadays it attracts a lot of danger to itself and struggles with getting overwhelmed to where I think that as a mon it's fairly balanced (but that could change)

Also, it's funny to think back on SSOU's rough history and how much of it I really do blame on Urshifu lmao

 

[blooclipse]

Yeah I tend to think that teleport is balanced by the power level of the wallbreakers it can bring in and can only be as OP as what it enables. As of right now I don't think it's broken or unhealthy since the most unhealthy thing right now would be Weavile (which doesn't even necessarily need that much pivoting support to perform fwiw but it does like it). I like that teleport allows for me to get mileage out of Nidoking and Tyranitar wallbreaker sets since they're otherwise rather unwieldy. I think that it can act as both a strategy for fat teams but also as counterplay against them to bring in things to go all battering ram. There's also the fact that while Slowbro was arguably OP for a bit nowadays it attracts a lot of danger to itself and struggles with getting overwhelmed to where I think that as a mon it's fairly balanced (but that could change)

Also, it's funny to think back on SSOU's rough history and how much of it I really do blame on Urshifu lmao

i blame it all on punchy bear
everything.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Yeah I tend to think that teleport is balanced by the power level of the wallbreakers it can bring in and can only be as OP as what it enables. As of right now I don't think it's broken or unhealthy since the most unhealthy thing right now would be Weavile (which doesn't even necessarily need that much pivoting support to perform fwiw but it does like it). I like that teleport allows for me to get mileage out of Nidoking and Tyranitar wallbreaker sets since they're otherwise rather unwieldy. I think that it can act as both a strategy for fat teams but also as counterplay against them to bring in things to go all battering ram. There's also the fact that while Slowbro was arguably OP for a bit nowadays it attracts a lot of danger to itself and struggles with getting overwhelmed to where I think that as a mon it's fairly balanced (but that could change)

Also, it's funny to think back on SSOU's rough history and how much of it I really do blame on Urshifu lmao

Yeah it's like urshifu is op and was banworthy on its own, but it seemed twice as op when you couldn't consistently cripple it due to a slowtwin bringing in it for free and risk free a good portion of the time and then with toxapex , buzzwole, and many other of its very few answers not being a good pivot into it due to future sight.


But right now I don't think either slowtwin is broken especially with Weavile's rise to dominance among other metagame trends and people in general being more prepared for future sight nowadays

 

[Smashburn]

In my opinion, Teleport is generally a balanced move and is part of a whole tool; the move itself isn't the issue (although I like the idea of removing its negative priority). However, I doubt it would change much because the slowtwins are still the slowest Teleport pivots available. Future Sight in tandem with Teleport is the current set staple, while Slowbro and Slowking sport enough versatility to run other sets. The pair blank opposing progress while generating their own thanks to their ability to sponge hits, which safely facilitates breakers as they beam through defensive cores. A lot of these issues are bolstered by an overtuned regenerator, which to some is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Even so, I don't believe that at the moment either of the slowtwins are broken. They're certainly good, but they tend to get overwhelmed and there's significant enough counterplay for either here (at least with the ubiquity of Weavile). Outside of that, talking speculation, if Weavile is banned what would you predict would happen to the meta? Would we see anymore bans after the floodgates are opened, and how much would the tier shift?

As much as I would hate to see Weavile go because of how much I have loved it this generation, I'm not opposed to seeing it go.

 

[Lord Xen III]

In my opinion, Teleport is generally a balanced move and is part of a whole tool; the move itself isn't the issue (although I like the idea of removing its negative priority). However, I doubt it would change much because the slowtwins are still the slowest Teleport pivots available. Future Sight in tandem with Teleport is the current set staple, while Slowbro and Slowking sport enough versatility to run other sets. The pair blank opposing progress while generating their own thanks to their ability to sponge hits, which safely facilitates breakers as they beam through defensive cores.

Even so, I don't believe that at the moment either of the slowtwins are broken. They're certainly good, but they tend to get overwhelmed and there's significant enough counterplay for either here (at least with the ubiquity of Weavile). Outside of that, talking speculation, if Weavile is banned what would you predict would happen to the meta? Would we see anymore bans after the floodgates are opened, and how much would the tier shift?

Weavile ironically is why I run colbur berry. You can just barely avoid the ohko from most choice band beat ups with it in my experience and body press to remove the threat that is desperately needed to be gone on the enemy team. I find colbur is useful for the occasional bisharp as well. However if it's SD beat up weavile I have no hope lol.

But it would be nice to have more flexibility to run HDB on my slowbro again which allows it to be more obnoxious like it was during the zama Zenta c meta where weavile and bisharp saw much less usage


In the wake of a weavile ban I think the dragon's will be harder to revenge kill and we would see a rise in mamoswine to fill that void, and then a rise in metal birds and things of that sort . The psychic types of the tier would enjoy it alot too, promoting more bisharp usage as well too

 

[myself12]

The ghosts would probably rise in viability because the tier's primary ghost resist would be gone.

On the topic of Weavile's brokeness, I wouldn't be opposed to a test, but I think that most teams have enough answers to it. If you look at the samples, every team has a lot of weavile answers.

Substitute Arctozolt + Choice Specs Volcanion Hail by Ox the Fox:
Weavile can't really switch-in safely. Pretty much every mon except lando can live a hit and do significant damage back.

Eruption Heatran + Swords Dance Weavile Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Tran, Fini, and Ferro all check weavile. Again, it can't really switch in safely.

Meteor Beam Nihilego + Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Offense by Gefährlicher Random:
It can't switch in safely. kart can revenge kill, and fini checks it.

Offensive Zapdos + Swords Dance Garchomp Bulky Offense by Sirwings:
Fini, tran, and ferro answer it.

Future Sight Slowking + Rocky Helmet Buzzwole Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Buzzwole, zeraora, and tran all can check it.

Pivot Tapu Koko + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Koko can revenge kill it, urshifu and corviknight can switch in a few times.

Iron Defense Magnezone + Protect Toxic Melmetal Bulky Offense by Ruft:
Magnezone, melm, and fini all check it.

The mons in those teams are pretty viable, which I think shows that weavile has a good amount of answers

 

[Lord Xen III]

The ghosts would probably rise in viability because the tier's primary ghost resist would be gone.

On the topic of Weavile's brokeness, I wouldn't be opposed to a test, but I think that most teams have enough answers to it. If you look at the samples, every team has a lot of weavile answers.

Substitute Arctozolt + Choice Specs Volcanion Hail by Ox the Fox:
Weavile can't really switch-in safely. Pretty much every mon except lando can live a hit and do significant damage back.

Eruption Heatran + Swords Dance Weavile Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Tran, Fini, and Ferro all check weavile. Again, it can't really switch in safely.

Meteor Beam Nihilego + Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Offense by Gefährlicher Random:
It can't switch in safely. kart can revenge kill, and fini checks it.

Offensive Zapdos + Swords Dance Garchomp Bulky Offense by Sirwings:
Fini, tran, and ferro answer it.

Future Sight Slowking + Rocky Helmet Buzzwole Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Buzzwole, zeraora, and tran all can check it.

Pivot Tapu Koko + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Koko can revenge kill it, urshifu and corviknight can switch in a few times.

Iron Defense Magnezone + Protect Toxic Melmetal Bulky Offense by Ruft:
Magnezone, melm, and fini all check it.

The mons in those teams are pretty viable, which I think shows that weavile has a good amount of answers

i'dagree with you completely without any doubt or skepticism like two months ago, but i'd want to see how banded beat up weavile or SD LO sets would be handled by these teams, which have become more trendy lately

 

[Moyashi]

Substitute Arctozolt + Choice Specs Volcanion Hail by Ox the Fox:
Weavile can't really switch-in safely. Pretty much every mon except lando can live a hit and do significant damage back.

It doesn't have to switch in by itself. Slow pivot support is plenty enough to help it in this match up. And nothing on this team wants to switch into Weavile. Alola Tales is an emergency check but it's forced to lose icy rock and thus drastically hampering the focus of the team by limiting the hail turns immensely.

Eruption Heatran + Swords Dance Weavile Bulky Offense by Finchinator:
Tran, Fini, and Ferro all check weavile. Again, it can't really switch in safely.

Offensive Zapdos + Swords Dance Garchomp Bulky Offense by Sirwings:

Balloon Tran doesn't switch in unless being gutsy on a predicted triple axel. It's more a offensive check. Plus 4a weavile can drop it with low kick. Ferro and Fini can switch in but both are forced to lose their lefties/helmet. Fini itself is a poor Weavile check because of this problem.

The mons in those teams are pretty viable, which I think shows that weavile has a good amount of answers

Certainly so the mons themselves are fine. However nearly all of them (of the ones you listed) have no recovery and are often forced to lose their items and thus become much more exploitable. Fini, Melm, Heatran, Urshifu, Corv, and misc random one time switch ins all are forced to drop their item and many get chunked quite hard. Funnily enough there is no team here with Toxapex which is its best answer, but even Pex can be forced to lose its item, either helmet or shed shell. The latter making it very prone to trapping. Buzzwole meanwhile loses its helmet to knock and thus becomes much more shaky of a switch in without a back up switch in because it fears banded or SD boosted axels.

The kind of specific pokemon pairings Weavile forces onto teams has a nasty habit of making teams weak to big special threats. A lot of these BO teams here are vulnerable to Nidoking for example. Weavile knocking off so many recovery lacking mons also lets it seriously enable dangerous breakers and makes it easy to overload these defensive pokemon who lack recovery.

It's not that Weavile doesn't have answers. It's that you have to stack answers so you don't get overwhelmed by it and its teammates.

Also banded beat up invalidates a lot of the steels in these teams as switch ins.