Oh, you mean the bargain bin water type which really doesn't have anything to differentiate itself from every other water out there? Yeah, it looks real great.
Also, he has his own thread here.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79290
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Also, he has his own thread here.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79290
Exactly my thoughts. I've heard from a lot of people that it only NEGATES stat losses. If that's true, then spamming Leaf Storm is still a good idea, but you'd need Growth to compensate for that low Base 75 Special Attack.
I still think that the Sub-Seeder is the way to go. Jaroda just doesn't seem like it can set up and sweep, or muscle its way through a few opponents as well as it could just stall out. Let alone it's a Grass-type, and is open to x2 weaknesses from almost everything, this generation.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79340
Confirmed Contrarian: All stat change effects are reversed; a stat-lowering move used against the Pokemon will actually raise the respective stat, and a move used by the user (such as Leaf Storm) that lowers the users stats will actually raise them. (howabe)
it has been confirmed
Confirmed Contrarian: All stat change effects are reversed; a stat-lowering move used against the Pokemon will actually raise the respective stat, and a move used by the user (such as Leaf Storm) that lowers the users stats will actually raise them. (howabe)
it has been confirmed
I'm not saying this isn't true, but the link you posted as the source of your supposed confirmation had nothing to do with self-induced stat drops.
Wait a minute. Contrarian allows you to spam Leaf Storm without a -2SpA drop, instead you gain a free NP (+2SpA) boost? Sounds great, even with Jaroda's small SpA base stat (75) and Herbivore (all Pokémon with this ability seem not to be good or have better abilities).
I remember I used Specs Shaymin in the Latias/Mence era and it was awesome to hax down stuff like Blissey / Scizor / Mence just with Seed Flare. Contrarian Jaroda just reminds me of Specs Shaymin, it is just more reliable and it outspeeds several Pokémon with it's 113 base speed.
Anyway, here are just some calcs:
Specs 252SpA Timid Jaroda using Leaf Storm vs
These are just some of the most common switch-ins (subjective during Latias/Mence era) into Shaymin and I included several 4x resisters. As you can see it's not completely overwhelming, but it can still hit some holes into your opponent's teams.
PS: I know that 252/252 Calm Blissey is impracticle and ScarfTran will allow me only to hit once, when it switches in, but is is only for comparison.
The main question is:
Is Contrarian working like we (or at least I) imagine, or is it only hype for a wrong translated ability? The B/W Research Thread confirms that it is working like I imagine (I still have my doubts).
@ Jaroda as a SubSeeder
Meh. Jaroda may look good as a sub seeder at the first moment, as it is faster than Jumpluff and bulkier than Sceptile and Jumpluff and with Glare it can paralyze stuff, but look at that:
Erufuun - Pure Grass
60/67/85/77/75/116
Mischievous Heart
(Not confirmed yet: Gives non-damaging moves priority)
Lv8: Leech Seed
Lv10: Stun Spore
Egg moves:
Encore
GrassWhistle
Memento
Switcheroo
TMs:
TM06 - Toxic
TM12 - Taunt
TM17 - Protect
TM89 - U-Turn
TM90 - Substitute
Quite hard competition. Am I right? Mischievous Heart is just godly and it gets Encore, Switcheroo and U-Turn. It is very good even not as a sub seeder, it can stop sweepers, gets awesome priority Encore, 116 troll speed and go on. It's less bulky that Jaroda, but bulk isn't the most important thing for a sub seeder. Encore and the fact that it is not forced to run max speed, because of MH (it can invest it into bulk) makes it an awesome Leech Seed abuser. Simply said it is Jumpluff on steroids.
-0²
I remember I used Specs Shaymin in the Latias/Mence era and it was awesome to hax down stuff like Blissey / Scizor / Mence just with Seed Flare. Contrarian Jaroda just reminds me of Specs Shaymin, it is just more reliable and it outspeeds several Pokémon with it's 113 base speed.
Anyway, here are just some calcs:
Specs 252SpA Timid Jaroda using Leaf Storm vs
+0 LS - 0/4 Timid Heatran - 19.2% - 22.6%
+2 LS - 0/4 Timid Heatran - 38.7% - 45.5%
+0 LS - 0/4 Timid Latias - 20.9% - 24.9%
+2 LS - 0/4 Timid Latias - 41.9% - 49.5%
+0 LS - 248/0 Adamant Scizor - 20.7% - 24.5%
+2 LS - 248/0 Adamant Scizor - 41.7% - 49%
+0 LS - 0/0 Naive Salamence - 23.9% - 28.4%
+2 LS - 0/0 Naive Salamence - 48% - 56.5%
+0 LS - 252/252 Impish Skarmory - 17.4% - 20.7%
+2 LS - 252/252 Impish Skarmory - 35% - 41.3%
+0 LS - 252/252 Calm Blissey - 19.5% - 23.1%
+2 LS - 252/252 Calm Blissey - 38.8% - 45.8%
+2 LS - 0/4 Timid Heatran - 38.7% - 45.5%
+0 LS - 0/4 Timid Latias - 20.9% - 24.9%
+2 LS - 0/4 Timid Latias - 41.9% - 49.5%
+0 LS - 248/0 Adamant Scizor - 20.7% - 24.5%
+2 LS - 248/0 Adamant Scizor - 41.7% - 49%
+0 LS - 0/0 Naive Salamence - 23.9% - 28.4%
+2 LS - 0/0 Naive Salamence - 48% - 56.5%
+0 LS - 252/252 Impish Skarmory - 17.4% - 20.7%
+2 LS - 252/252 Impish Skarmory - 35% - 41.3%
+0 LS - 252/252 Calm Blissey - 19.5% - 23.1%
+2 LS - 252/252 Calm Blissey - 38.8% - 45.8%
These are just some of the most common switch-ins (subjective during Latias/Mence era) into Shaymin and I included several 4x resisters. As you can see it's not completely overwhelming, but it can still hit some holes into your opponent's teams.
PS: I know that 252/252 Calm Blissey is impracticle and ScarfTran will allow me only to hit once, when it switches in, but is is only for comparison.
The main question is:
Is Contrarian working like we (or at least I) imagine, or is it only hype for a wrong translated ability? The B/W Research Thread confirms that it is working like I imagine (I still have my doubts).
@ Jaroda as a SubSeeder
Meh. Jaroda may look good as a sub seeder at the first moment, as it is faster than Jumpluff and bulkier than Sceptile and Jumpluff and with Glare it can paralyze stuff, but look at that:
Erufuun - Pure Grass
60/67/85/77/75/116
Mischievous Heart
(Not confirmed yet: Gives non-damaging moves priority)
Lv8: Leech Seed
Lv10: Stun Spore
Egg moves:
Encore
GrassWhistle
Memento
Switcheroo
TMs:
TM06 - Toxic
TM12 - Taunt
TM17 - Protect
TM89 - U-Turn
TM90 - Substitute
Quite hard competition. Am I right? Mischievous Heart is just godly and it gets Encore, Switcheroo and U-Turn. It is very good even not as a sub seeder, it can stop sweepers, gets awesome priority Encore, 116 troll speed and go on. It's less bulky that Jaroda, but bulk isn't the most important thing for a sub seeder. Encore and the fact that it is not forced to run max speed, because of MH (it can invest it into bulk) makes it an awesome Leech Seed abuser. Simply said it is Jumpluff on steroids.
-0²
Erufuun doesn't get Mean Look.
With swimming goggles he DOES have a never missing megahorn...
Better than Seaking. XD
Sweet Jesus, I sure hope not.
Otherwise Jaroda will be even more broken than it's already sounding out to be.
Perverse Smuglord
Jolly Jaroda @ Leftovers
Perversity (Serebii calls Contradiction this, and personally I like this name better ;P)
~ Swagger
~ Leaf Storm
~ Dragon Tail
~ Pursuit
80 Hp / 178 Atk / 252 Spe
Swagger will not only confuse the foe, but thanks to Perversity, lower his Atk two stage. Say hello to crippling almost every Physical Attacker out there. Dragon Tail acts as a damaging Roar, while Pursuit can catch some damage on those fleeing cripples. Leaf Storm is self explanatory, easily getting Smuglord a +2 boost every turn. Thanks to this investing in SpAtk is unessecary.
Jolly Jaroda @ Leftovers
Perversity (Serebii calls Contradiction this, and personally I like this name better ;P)
~ Swagger
~ Leaf Storm
~ Dragon Tail
~ Pursuit
80 Hp / 178 Atk / 252 Spe
Swagger will not only confuse the foe, but thanks to Perversity, lower his Atk two stage. Say hello to crippling almost every Physical Attacker out there. Dragon Tail acts as a damaging Roar, while Pursuit can catch some damage on those fleeing cripples. Leaf Storm is self explanatory, easily getting Smuglord a +2 boost every turn. Thanks to this investing in SpAtk is unessecary.
With so many ways to play with Jaroda I'm looking forward to its offensive and supporting potential. +2 from Leaf Storm and a single type with moderately developed stats, I look forward to seeing what kind tactics to play with ;)
Contrarian doesn't affect the opponent. Also, why would you use Jolly when using Leaf Storm o_0
Holy shit someone test this
"Perverse Smuglord" I think only pokemon with Contratrian's ability get the reversed stats, not pokemon that aren't him and have different abilities. It would work on another Jaroda though!
I'm looking forward to spamming Specs Leaf Storm behind double screens. This Gen is going to be insane
Perversity does not work on stat changes inflicted upon the opponent.
Maybe a SubCM set?
252 HP/ 40 Def / 212 Speed
Timid Nature @ Leftovers
Substitute
Calm Mind
Energy Ball
Hidden Power Ice/Fire/Rock/Ground (your choice lol)
It hits 351 Speed outspeeding gengar, and after a Calm Mind, not a lot of things can break the substitute (from the special side other than STAB Fire/Ice moves). I'm pretty sure you can take unboosted/unstabbed SE attacks and Calm Mind up until you will be able to finish them off.
You can go with Torment instead of substitute if you aren't worried about status and stuff. Toxic spikes support helps it a lot (esp with hp fire hitting the steels) if you torment the move that will do a lot of damage to you they will do crap damage to you while you stall their hp with your own attacks and poison. This seems promising but I dunno if it will be.
Consider moving the speed EV's to defense since you can easily outspeed neutral 100 base speeds with timid and minimum speed investment. I think like 24 speed EVs hits 300?
252 HP/ 40 Def / 212 Speed
Timid Nature @ Leftovers
Substitute
Calm Mind
Energy Ball
Hidden Power Ice/Fire/Rock/Ground (your choice lol)
It hits 351 Speed outspeeding gengar, and after a Calm Mind, not a lot of things can break the substitute (from the special side other than STAB Fire/Ice moves). I'm pretty sure you can take unboosted/unstabbed SE attacks and Calm Mind up until you will be able to finish them off.
You can go with Torment instead of substitute if you aren't worried about status and stuff. Toxic spikes support helps it a lot (esp with hp fire hitting the steels) if you torment the move that will do a lot of damage to you they will do crap damage to you while you stall their hp with your own attacks and poison. This seems promising but I dunno if it will be.
Consider moving the speed EV's to defense since you can easily outspeed neutral 100 base speeds with timid and minimum speed investment. I think like 24 speed EVs hits 300?
I personally think there are just too many physical threats that require a Hidden Power to not-die-to. It can't just muscle it's way past everything like the Contrarian set can. Plus, Shanderaa, existing, y'know. If you don't have HP Rock you get set up on :/
link? Serebii says "All stat changes"
What's the point in Calm Minding when perversity gives you a +2 boost whenever you use Leafstorm? Sub+LS gives you two more move slots. Too bad Smuglord doesn't get Shadow Ball (or... does it? I didn't see it in my first pass through.)
Draco Meteor's restricted to Dragon types. And a few event Pokemon, I suppose.
But man, imagine if Jaroda had been Grass/Dragon like some people speculated...