SPOILERS! Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon News & Discussion

[Worldie]

Yes, back when the National Dex was actually in the games.
It isn't anymore.

As I mentioned, the issue isn't that.
The issue is that with entire pokedex allowed in 2018 VGC (minus mythicals/covers), it means you *need* to be able to obtain legal legendaryes in the generation. Every other Pokemon you can just catch in another and breed down, expecially if as expected Tutors will reappear as usual in USUM, but Legendaryes you can only obtain in other games right now.

If they meant to exclude all legendaryes, the post with the rules would have said "excluding non alolan legendaryes", it only says "excluding some legendaryes" however, which highly hints at the presence of all others catchable.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

Can we please talk about VGC in the thread about it, and leave here for news about USUM?

I created it already, xD

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-18-rules-announced.3617184

 

[Siggu]

Yes, back when the National Dex was actually in the games.
It isn't anymore.

But the symbol mechanic is the one that pushes for being able to get all Pokemon in the current generation now.

 

[Zowayix]

it's been more-or-less official policy to make sure a player can complete the National Dex within a single generation.

A single system, not generation. B2W2 didn't have all the previous starters and legendaries, but HGSS and ORAS did. I'm betting USUM won't.

 

[Project_Mars]

A single system, not generation. B2W2 didn't have all the previous starters and legendaries, but HGSS and ORAS did. I'm betting USUM won't.

Yeah, but if the intent is for them to make it all legal for VGC, then we should expect them in USUM unless they have plans to make gen 4 remakes as part of gen 7

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I kind of doubt they will make remakes for Gen 4 this generation. They only do remakes for every console that comes, not every generation, as proven previously by the last three remakes (FRLG was on GBA, HGSS on DS, ORAS on 3DS). Plus DPP is technically playable on 3DS backwards compatibility and DPP mons can be transferred to the 3DS games and BW so there's not much of a reason to make them atm. Unless they do something wildly different I'm expecting DP remakes to come at earliest in two years and on the Switch, after Pokemon Switch comes out (presumably next year at earliest, possibly later). I don't imagine they'll come any earlier than 2019, however.

Anyways, onto Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon...they're looking more interesting the more they reveal. It looks like some sort of alternate story or something related to the original SM, but it's looking to take a darker direction story wise kind of like Gen 5 did. We'll see more of the Ultra Space universe, and Necrozma looks like it'll take on a sort of antagonist role in the story. And the Ultra Space seems to have several environments where various Ultra Beasts come from, which looks interesting. The Ultra Recon squad and the idea of people living in Ultra Space seems...really weird but I'm interested in seeing how it pans out in practice. The new UBs look interesting too.

UB Burst and Assembly look interesting, I do wonder how they'll fare in the competitive scene. Assembly's typing looks meh but Burst looks to be something. Hopefully we'll see more of those two later on (and what their real names are).

Oh and also the game looks to have a lot more of some fun features. Riding Solgaleo/Lunala through Ultra Space looks like a lot of fun to do, and riding Mantine also looks awesome.

Anyways, just a few thoughts. USUM is looking more and more interesting along the way...can't wait for it to release.

 

[TenshouYoku]

Maybe, a BIG maybe, they might not actually add all legendaries into USUM (although Ultra Space strongly hints so due to potential), because
1. The symbol system is only a measurement to counteract the numerous hacked pokemon that has absurdly broken stats (full 255 on everything),
2. We all know how horrible VGC17 went when legendaries are allowed, so it's not like they will bring out the same stuff this time (and honestly legends are good for nothing if you can't use them),
3. The lack of national dex in SM is to a. limit the amount of pokemon new players needed to catch and fill up the pokedex, and b. provide a more restricted play on certain pokemon to promote the use of new pokemons. Especially when they decided to add more old pokes to increase the amount of pokes available for greater variety, I'm more inclined that they will introduce a larger Alola dex but not a national dex (such that they can play the same "Alola dex only" trick this year), so more builds are allowed and made possible but no more old metas like CHALK and especially the broken-as-fuck Xerneas/Don meta.

 

[R_N]

Maybe, a BIG maybe, they might not actually add all legendaries into USUM (although Ultra Space strongly hints so due to potential), because
1. The symbol system is only a measurement to counteract the numerous hacked pokemon that has absurdly broken stats (full 255 on everything),
2. We all know how horrible VGC17 went when legendaries are allowed, so it's not like they will bring out the same stuff this time (and honestly legends are good for nothing if you can't use them),
3. The lack of national dex in SM is to a. limit the amount of pokemon new players needed to catch and fill up the pokedex, and b. provide a more restricted play on certain pokemon to promote the use of new pokemons. Especially when they decided to add more old pokes to increase the amount of pokes available for greater variety, I'm more inclined that they will introduce a larger Alola dex but not a national dex (such that they can play the same "Alola dex only" trick this year), so more builds are allowed and made possible but no more old metas like CHALK and especially the broken-as-fuck Xerneas/Don meta.

1. The symbol system isn't just for the hacking thing (like you can just hack in the symbol, or hack a symboled pokemon), it's for specifically limiting the pokemon you can use to *this generation*. It means you are forced to discard old tutors, tms, etc. For some pokemon they discard abilities.
2. That VGC, iirc, allowed *all* legendary pokemon, which was the problem. It included the 680 legendaries. They clearly have no problem having lower level legends
3b. This is completely irrelevant? Nat Dex pokemon wouldn't be available (beyond the island scans) until post game so the main game reasoning doesn't stick. The symbol limiter would ignore it in the first place in competitive play (see also: XY). But also we know they're allowing the national dex for next year so...

 

[TenshouYoku]

1. The symbol system isn't just for the hacking thing (like you can just hack in the symbol, or hack a symboled pokemon), it's for specifically limiting the pokemon you can use to *this generation*. It means you are forced to discard old tutors, tms, etc. For some pokemon they discard abilities.
2. That VGC, iirc, allowed *all* legendary pokemon, which was the problem. It included the 680 legendaries. They clearly have no problem having lower level legends
3b. This is completely irrelevant? Nat Dex pokemon wouldn't be available (beyond the island scans) until post game so the main game reasoning doesn't stick. The symbol limiter would ignore it in the first place in competitive play (see also: XY). But also we know they're allowing the national dex for next year so...

1. Yes, that's true in some way (I don't recall which pokemon is heavily nerfed by tutor moves cross-gen tho, except Gengar which is the only notable nerfed poke in SM which is the first time apart from the Kanto doggos), but in Gen 4 and Gen 5 hacking into the game is essentially as easy as a cakewalk because the anti-hack of DS games sucked - Woe betide BW2 which is cracked almost day-one and hacks are readily available. There are still toys for you to gen pokes in Gen 6 onwards, except it is made much more complicated because of firmware updates even tho some bad players still did that.
(Still, when all you can do is hack normal pokes, why would anyone still hack pokes apart from getting a "legit" shiny and save time SR-ing the game?)

2. The thing is some of the legendaries have a lot of BST in their belt which grants them a lot of power/spare EVs. Though yes most of them aren't super game breaking, so it's probably good if they don't allow big guys to ruin the game.

3. Whoops, I did not know they are allowing National Dex in 2018 lol. Then yeah b is totally irrelevant now, thought they were sticking to the Alola rule.
Still it seems counter-productive if they aren't including a national dex when they are allowing every old poke to be in the game (bar some of the legendaries which they are probably mum about it until December), so maybe they will have a national dex but they will lower the qualifications needed to obtain the charms, say they only need to fill the USUM Alola dex?

 

[ToadBrigade]

Yeah, but if the intent is for them to make it all legal for VGC, then we should expect them in USUM unless they have plans to make gen 4 remakes as part of gen 7

With XY, ORAS, SM, and USUM as well as RBY and GS all being available to instantly access on the same system, I don't see why they would need to do so for just this gen. Every Pokemon is currently available on the 3DS at the moment and GF would love you to go back and buy ORAS at full price if you haven't already. And throw in a Pokebank subscription while you're at it.

Just for reference (not including mythicals): I believe you needed RBY to complete gen II's National dex, gen III could be completed standalone (might need XD, can't remember), you needed HGSS and DPP to complete gen V without events, and gen VI could be completed standalone. So there's not much precedent for having every Pokemon available in a single generation.

 

[TenshouYoku]

With XY, ORAS, SM, and USUM as well as RBY and GS all being available to instantly access on the same system, I don't see why they would need to do so for just this gen. Every Pokemon is currently available on the 3DS at the moment and GF would love you to go back and buy ORAS at full price if you haven't already. And throw in a Pokebank subscription while you're at it.

Just for reference (not including mythicals): I believe you needed RBY to complete gen II's National dex, gen III could be completed standalone (might need XD, can't remember), you needed HGSS and DPP to complete gen V without events, and gen VI could be completed standalone. So there's not much precedent for having every Pokemon available in a single generation.

Yes, if the idea is just for Pokedex collection, then it makes sense because Gen 6 or not it doesn't matter a ton, if at all.
However we are talking about "legal in VGC18", and afaik it requires the black clover thing for a pokemon to be legitimate for VGC this year just like every other VGC games respectively, then if they are going to allow the old big guys to get into play (unless this is an another way GF to ban them without hurting the normal breedables), then there's gotta be a way for you to obtain them in USUM should that be not GF's intent.

 

[ToadBrigade]

Yes, if the idea is just for Pokedex collection, then it makes sense because Gen 6 or not it doesn't matter a ton, if at all.
However we are talking about "legal in VGC18", and afaik it requires the black clover thing for a pokemon to be legitimate for VGC this year just like every other VGC games respectively, then if they are going to allow the old big guys to get into play (unless this is an another way GF to ban them without hurting the normal breedables), then there's gotta be a way for you to obtain them in USUM should that be not GF's intent.

"All Pokémon in the National Pokédex are allowed, with the following restrictions:

• Pokémon must have the Alola symbol showing they were caught in the Alola region
• Mythical Pokémon, some Legendary Pokémon, and Ash-Greninja are not allowed"

All normal breedables are currently obtainable with an Alola symbol. Going by this, if a legendary isn't available with an Alola symbol, it's not eligible whether or not it's in the National Dex. Unless something new is revealed between now and USUM release or VGC18 details in December, it's only speculation whether these legendaries will be included or not.

Edit: Assuming "some Legendary Pokemon" refers to box Legendaries

 

[TenshouYoku]

"All Pokémon in the National Pokédex are allowed, with the following restrictions:

• Pokémon must have the Alola symbol showing they were caught in the Alola region
• Mythical Pokémon, some Legendary Pokémon, and Ash-Greninja are not allowed"

All normal breedables are currently obtainable with an Alola symbol. Going by this, if a legendary isn't available with an Alola symbol, it's not eligible whether or not it's in the National Dex. Unless something new is revealed between now and USUM release or VGC18 details in December, it's only speculation whether these legendaries will be included or not.

Edit: Assuming "some Legendary Pokemon" refers to box Legendaries

Yep, pretty much what I am talking about. We can only guess what are they thinking ATM.

 

[Worldie]

I am quite confident they realized how bad right now it would be to allow cover legendaryes after 2016 VGC, so it's either going to mean only Alolan ones (UB/Tapus basically), or if the ultra-rift mechanic is included, all of them except mythicals and cover leges.

 

[Golden Aether]

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the previous gen legends fail to be catchable directly this gen just as an excuse to get things like Landorus-T and Heatran out of this year's VGC.

 

[Codraroll]

I am quite confident they realized...

I see your reasoning, but having been a fan of this franchise for almost 20 years, I've learned that you can't really count on TPC to realize anything.

 

[Worldie]

I see your reasoning, but having been a fan of this franchise for almost 20 years, I've learned that you can't really count on TPC to realize anything.

Touchè :P Can't argue with that

 

[Yveltal]

Semi wondering what they'll have for spoilers before the games come out. Other than extra news on the Recon squad, the names of the new UBs or a further explanation of when you get to start traveling through dimensions, they don't appear to have left much space with the existing information.

I would say maybe they'll reveal the types of Necrozma's new forms, but somewhere down the line they were confirmed to share the same types as Solgaleo and Lunala. So there's nothing else really going for the box legends...

Also UB Sticky looks like a tiny purple xenomorph mixed with a dragonfruit and I love it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Semi wondering what they'll have for spoilers before the games come out. Other than extra news on the Recon squad, the names of the new UBs or a further explanation of when you get to start traveling through dimensions, they don't appear to have left much space with the existing information.

I would say maybe they'll reveal the types of Necrozma's new forms, but somewhere down the line they were confirmed to share the same types as Solgaleo and Lunala. So there's nothing else really going for the box legends...

Also UB Sticky looks like a tiny purple xenomorph mixed with a dragonfruit and I love it.

They have all the changes they've done to Alola they can exposit on. Also we don't know why the new Z-Moves needs to be twisted to activate, as well as revealing more Z-Moves. If there's any new Alolan forms they can focus on them (also new Mega Evos, hopeful thinking). They can go indepth on any potential expansion o the Aether Foundation and Team Skull. Provide fanservice by revealing they're putting more past NPCs in the Battle Tree.

While all these new additions are nice, at the same time I would also like to see how much has the story actually changed. Will we still be following the same story beats but now with extra Ultra Recon Squad bits until the Alter?

 

[Worldie]

I think the next most realistic spoiler we could expect is new alolan forms (if such thing actually happens).

I'm also curious to see if Megas (who got confirmed that will be allowed in VGC) will be available during the story, potentially part of it, or simply a post-game thing again.

 

[13_luckynumber]

I'm also curious to see if Megas (who got confirmed that will be allowed in VGC) will be available during the story, potentially part of it, or simply a post-game thing again.

then next VGC will just be another mega kangashkhan spam-fest

I think next reveal could be as simple as typing reveal for the 2 necrozma forms (even though we already knew)

 

[IcyMan28]

Well they have now released all mega stones by code as is, so they may just rehash SM and leave them as Battle Tree prizes. Which is a shame since there are a fair bit of mega viable Pokémon in the Dex.

 

[Worldie]

It was pretty obvious from the first USUM trailer who shown the new Pokemon that all the megas would be available in alolan Dex.

Also no, it will not be another M-kangaskan fest, because both M-kanga got severely nerfed, and Z-moves exist.

Plus, Tapu Lele also exists, which severely dents M-Kanga's efficiency due to M-Kanga having a mediocre speed tier and relying on Priority to hit a lot of faster threats.

 

[Meliodafu7]

VGC18 would be the M-Metagross meta, it can check the other top tier pick, M-Salamence, also benefits from all terrains

 

[Siggu]

It was pretty obvious from the first USUM trailer who shown the new Pokemon that all the megas would be available in alolan Dex.

Also no, it will not be another M-kangaskan fest, because both M-kanga got severely nerfed, and Z-moves exist.

Plus, Tapu Lele also exists, which severely dents M-Kanga's efficiency due to M-Kanga having a mediocre speed tier and relying on Priority to hit a lot of faster threats.

Mega Kangaskhan got banned in Doubles OU in this generation and not in XY, when it was technically stronger in the latter.

While VGC is obviously different, don't be so quick to dismiss it.