Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

[Ryota Mitarai]

Update on my run:

My mons were around level 36 when I faced Skyla due to Lucky Egg. I took it off for now since I would overlevel and make my results inaccurate.

I caught Litwick. It's got a -Spa nature, but it's dealing solid damage nonethless. I also use WoW + Hex which is sometimes efficient.


My matchup against Skyla:

-Sawk: This one was surprisingly good. With Bulk Up + Rock Tomb, you can OHKO Swoobat (mine did at least). It also beats Unfezant. Mine was outsped and KOed by Swanna, so I say this matchup is rather good, but not the best.

-Litwick: Was able to beat Swoobat by burning it and being basically untouched (it helped me that I was really slow so I undersped and took less damage from Assurance), Swanna is obvious lose and lost to Unfezant. Matchup is meh, at least not completely dead weight

-Gigalith: Soloed the whole gym. Also learnt Stealth Rock after battle, which I am planning on actually using.

-Cinccino: Also soloed the whole gym. Swoobat needed 2 Rock Blasts, everything else 3 to be OHKOed.

-Gothorita: Really good matchup here. I taught it Charge Beam and gave it Magnet. I was able to accumulate many boosts with Charge Beam, which allowed me to OHKO Swanna and 2HKO Unfezant (I think I had 2 boosts, Swoobat had used Amnesia and got 3HKOed). Even with no boosts, Gothorita beats them.


So far, all mons have shown really good results, while being on par with the Gyms' ace mons.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Update on my run:

My mons were around level 36 when I faced Skyla due to Lucky Egg. I took it off for now since I would overlevel and make my results inaccurate.

I caught Litwick. It's got a -Spa nature, but it's dealing solid damage nonethless. I also use WoW + Hex which is sometimes efficient.


My matchup against Skyla:

-Sawk: This one was surprisingly good. With Bulk Up + Rock Tomb, you can OHKO Swoobat (mine did at least). It also beats Unfezant. Mine was outsped and KOed by Swanna, so I say this matchup is rather good, but not the best.

-Litwick: Was able to beat Swoobat by burning it and being basically untouched (it helped me that I was really slow so I undersped and took less damage from Assurance), Swanna is obvious lose and lost to Unfezant. Matchup is meh, at least not completely dead weight

-Gigalith: Soloed the whole gym. Also learnt Stealth Rock after battle, which I am planning on actually using.

-Cinccino: Also soloed the whole gym. Swoobat needed 2 Rock Blasts, everything else 3 to be OHKOed.

-Gothorita: Really good matchup here. I taught it Charge Beam and gave it Magnet. I was able to accumulate many boosts with Charge Beam, which allowed me to OHKO Swanna and 2HKO Unfezant (I think I had 2 boosts, Swoobat had used Amnesia and got 3HKOed). Even with no boosts, Gothorita beats them.


So far, all mons have shown really good results, while being on par with the Gyms' ace mons.

Am liking your succinct yet informative updates, keep them up!
Discussion Slate: Basculin, Dwebble, Litwick, Vanillite (C tier or bust).

 

[Yoshi]

As a massive fan of BW, I feel that some parts of this list (and this thread lol) are a bit off.

Good Teams

As you can see in that image, those are general good teams from BW, all of which I collected from a thread elsewhere (can't remember the exact website). Each team is from a different user, and you'll notice a lot of different trends (in case you are curious, each team is ordered by when you get each Pokemon). Based on that image, there are quite a few things that the thread gets right. Archeops at S rank is definitely a correct choice. Nearly all of those teams have Archeops, for very obvious reasons. However, one S rank that I am a bit confused about is Darmanitan.

To talk about Darmanitan a bit, I think it is definitely being overrated by a ton. I think most people enjoy it because of its early access, as well as having really good stats for that point of the game, but really, there are a lot of flaws to Darumaka and Darmanitan. Darumaka evolves at level 35, which seems like it isn't that bad of an evolution level, but remember where you get this Pokemon in the game: Desert Resort. At this point in the game, your Pokemon are going to be somewhere in the level 22-24 range. By the time you get to the 35 range, you'll probably be a bit after Skyla. This means that these shiny stats, which are good for the point of the game in which Darumaka is found, slowly wears off overtime, and won't pay off until you get to Brycen, which I suppose is good timing.

Speaking of Brycen, that is the only gym Darmanitan has a truly good match up in. Elesa will definitely cause trouble for Darumaka due to all the Volt Switch pivoting, especially since Darumaka is slow and not the bulkiest Pokemon in the world. Clay has Palpitoad, and Krokorok and Excadrill are more than likely going to be faster. Once you get to Skyla, your stats don't really mean much, and Swanna, as well as her other Pokemon (although mostly Swanna) are going to give Darumaka a run for its money. It isn't until you get to Brycen that Darmanitan is going to do something, and then you hit a Dragon-type gym right after, which Darmanitan is fairly useless in.

Perhaps this wouldn't matter too much if Darumaka got some good coverage. However, it generally only gets Fire- and Normal-type moves, with Rollout being the only exception early on. It isn't until level 35 (when Darumaka evolves) that it gets Hammer Arm, a move that lowers your Speed. at level 47 rather (39 for Darumaka), you can also pick up Superpower, another coverage move with some massive negatives. There are quite a few TMs you can teach them like Bulldoze, so it does make up for the struggle a bit (for Bulldoze in particular, Darmanitan won't use it for any super effective coverage in any major way, especially since he tears through Chargestone Cave regardless).

I guess Darmanitan's best positive for the late game is its incredible stats. It has a huge Attack stat, and fairly decent Speed as well. However, what it has in those fields, it lacks in bulk. Darmanitan runs the risk of dying to a lot of attacks, and will probably not be able to take any super effective hit. This means that Darmanitan either has to OHKO the opposing Pokemon before taking a heavy hit, or it might as well just die. It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.

This isn't to say Darmanitan isn't a good Pokemon to use in this game, that is. Being strong is obviously a crazy good thing, and will tear through a lot of teams. The early availability of Darumaka is also extremely helpful, giving you another relatively strong Pokemon right after the third gym. However, as discussed, that strength wears off until just after the 6th gym. There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.

I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage. While it is found a bit after the 5th gym, I don't see how availability is ever an issue in this way. If a Pokemon is found in the late game, I definitely don't think that should affect their rank, considering you don't get six Pokemon right off the bat. Pokemon is designed to plan your team out widespread, rather than filling your team before half way through the game. Most people go with that route (not saying that is the wrong way to play the game, but it isn't the way it was intended to be done) and end up not being able to pick up some cooler late game Pokemon like Druddigon and Pawniard. On top of that, most people still have room for Galvantula by the time they get to that point of the game, especially shown in the picture of teams above.

Since someone is going to bring up Galvantula vs. Eelektross, let's talk about that. Both Pokemon get some nice coverage, although Eelektross probably succeeds on that front. It also succeeds on the damage front as well, carrying a much higher Special Attack stat. However, what makes Galvantula so much better than Eelektross is Galvantula's Speed. Galvantula is extremely fast. This allows Galvantula to be on the weaker side, as it can simply just 2HKO through out speeds. Galvantula also has some good utility moves as well, including Thunder Wave and Electro Web. That's really what I think makes Galvantula better than Eelektross, I guess it is more team dependent if anything, but I think most people want a Pokemon like Galvantula, especially in a casual setting, when most people want fast-paced game play.

================

Those aren't the only issues I have with this tier list, but these are my thoughts at a first glance. I might make another post at some point this week, but we'll see how this plays out.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

As a massive fan of BW, I feel that some parts of this list (and this thread lol) are a bit off.

Good Teams

As you can see in that image, those are general good teams from BW, all of which I collected from a thread elsewhere (can't remember the exact website). Each team is from a different user, and you'll notice a lot of different trends (in case you are curious, each team is ordered by when you get each Pokemon). Based on that image, there are quite a few things that the thread gets right. Archeops at S rank is definitely a correct choice. Nearly all of those teams have Archeops, for very obvious reasons. However, one S rank that I am a bit confused about is Darmanitan.

To talk about Darmanitan a bit, I think it is definitely being overrated by a ton. I think most people enjoy it because of its early access, as well as having really good stats for that point of the game, but really, there are a lot of flaws to Darumaka and Darmanitan. Darumaka evolves at level 35, which seems like it isn't that bad of an evolution level, but remember where you get this Pokemon in the game: Desert Resort. At this point in the game, your Pokemon are going to be somewhere in the level 22-24 range. By the time you get to the 35 range, you'll probably be a bit after Skyla. This means that these shiny stats, which are good for the point of the game in which Darumaka is found, slowly wears off overtime, and won't pay off until you get to Brycen, which I suppose is good timing.

Speaking of Brycen, that is the only gym Darmanitan has a truly good match up in. Elesa will definitely cause trouble for Darumaka due to all the Volt Switch pivoting, especially since Darumaka is slow and not the bulkiest Pokemon in the world. Clay has Palpitoad, and Krokorok and Excadrill are more than likely going to be faster. Once you get to Skyla, your stats don't really mean much, and Swanna, as well as her other Pokemon (although mostly Swanna) are going to give Darumaka a run for its money. It isn't until you get to Brycen that Darmanitan is going to do something, and then you hit a Dragon-type gym right after, which Darmanitan is fairly useless in.

Perhaps this wouldn't matter too much if Darumaka got some good coverage. However, it generally only gets Fire- and Normal-type moves, with Rollout being the only exception early on. It isn't until level 35 (when Darumaka evolves) that it gets Hammer Arm, a move that lowers your Speed. at level 47 rather (39 for Darumaka), you can also pick up Superpower, another coverage move with some massive negatives. There are quite a few TMs you can teach them like Bulldoze, so it does make up for the struggle a bit (for Bulldoze in particular, Darmanitan won't use it for any super effective coverage in any major way, especially since he tears through Chargestone Cave regardless).

I guess Darmanitan's best positive for the late game is its incredible stats. It has a huge Attack stat, and fairly decent Speed as well. However, what it has in those fields, it lacks in bulk. Darmanitan runs the risk of dying to a lot of attacks, and will probably not be able to take any super effective hit. This means that Darmanitan either has to OHKO the opposing Pokemon before taking a heavy hit, or it might as well just die. It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.

This isn't to say Darmanitan isn't a good Pokemon to use in this game, that is. Being strong is obviously a crazy good thing, and will tear through a lot of teams. The early availability of Darumaka is also extremely helpful, giving you another relatively strong Pokemon right after the third gym. However, as discussed, that strength wears off until just after the 6th gym. There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.

I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage. While it is found a bit after the 5th gym, I don't see how availability is ever an issue in this way. If a Pokemon is found in the late game, I definitely don't think that should affect their rank, considering you don't get six Pokemon right off the bat. Pokemon is designed to plan your team out widespread, rather than filling your team before half way through the game. Most people go with that route (not saying that is the wrong way to play the game, but it isn't the way it was intended to be done) and end up not being able to pick up some cooler late game Pokemon like Druddigon and Pawniard. On top of that, most people still have room for Galvantula by the time they get to that point of the game, especially shown in the picture of teams above.

Since someone is going to bring up Galvantula vs. Eelektross, let's talk about that. Both Pokemon get some nice coverage, although Eelektross probably succeeds on that front. It also succeeds on the damage front as well, carrying a much higher Special Attack stat. However, what makes Galvantula so much better than Eelektross is Galvantula's Speed. Galvantula is extremely fast. This allows Galvantula to be on the weaker side, as it can simply just 2HKO through out speeds. Galvantula also has some good utility moves as well, including Thunder Wave and Electro Web. That's really what I think makes Galvantula better than Eelektross, I guess it is more team dependent if anything, but I think most people want a Pokemon like Galvantula, especially in a casual setting, when most people want fast-paced game play.

================

Those aren't the only issues I have with this tier list, but these are my thoughts at a first glance. I might make another post at some point this week, but we'll see how this plays out.

I want to say before talking about these that this is a great post overall. However, I'm going to make my opinion known. I have soloed the game with Darumaka with only 2 whiteouts and used it in other runs, so I have plenty of experience with it. I have used Joltik slightly less, but still have experience with it.

To talk about Darmanitan a bit, I think it is definitely being overrated by a ton. I think most people enjoy it because of its early access, as well as having really good stats for that point of the game, but really, there are a lot of flaws to Darumaka and Darmanitan. Darumaka evolves at level 35, which seems like it isn't that bad of an evolution level, but remember where you get this Pokemon in the game: Desert Resort. At this point in the game, your Pokemon are going to be somewhere in the level 22-24 range.

What does this prove? Scrafty reaches Scrafty at level 39. Archen reaches Archeops at level 37. Of the four S tiers, only Drilbur (which has the most rough time getting off the ground imo) reaches earlier than Darumaka at level 31. Speaking of Drilbur, Darumaka actually has marginally higher bulk than Drilbur, and 5 points higher in Attack. What Scraggy falls behind in stats, it more than makes up for in moves. You can even catch one at level 20 in the inner Desert Resort ready to go with Brick Break, though it misses out on a couple rival fights. And Scraggy sweeps Clay, Brycen, likely Drayden, Shauntal, Caitlin (save Sigilyph), and N and Ghetsis if you are smart. Archen is unquestionably best in both stats and matchups.

By the time you get to the 35 range, you'll probably be a bit after Skyla. This means that these shiny stats, which are good for the point of the game in which Darumaka is found, slowly wears off overtime, and won't pay off until you get to Brycen, which I suppose is good timing.

This is untrue. Most have been about level 36-38 around here. Skyla's ace is 35, and Darmanitan can easily tank through Swoobat and Unfezant.
With a six mon team, it's still doable if you prepare in advance.

Perhaps this wouldn't matter too much if Darumaka got some good coverage. However, it generally only gets Fire- and Normal-type moves, with Rollout being the only exception early on. It isn't until level 35 (when Darumaka evolves) that it gets Hammer Arm, a move that lowers your Speed. at level 47 rather (39 for Darumaka), you can also pick up Superpower, another coverage move with some massive negatives. There are quite a few TMs you can teach them like Bulldoze, so it does make up for the struggle a bit (for Bulldoze in particular, Darmanitan won't use it for any super effective coverage in any major way, especially since he tears through Chargestone Cave regardless).

Darumaka can be equipped with Dig and Rock Tomb almost immediately, with Rock Slide and Brick Break later. What do you mean it doesn't get good coverage?
Of all the bosses, here's what resists Fire STAB:
Rivals: Monkey and starter depending on team choices.
Burgh: Dwebble
N 3: None.
Elesa: None. You can probably kill Zebstrika if you make it the last mon standing if you have Eviolite.
Clay: Palpitoad, but this is a matchup you probably shouldn't partake in.
N 4: Boldore (and it rips the others apart)
Skyla: Swanna
Brycen: None
Drayden/Iris: All. Though you can probably sweep this too. Belly Drum while they DD.
Shauntal: Jellicent
Grimsley: None
Caitlin: None
Marshall: None.
N Final: Both dragons, Archeops, and Carracosta. You still rip through half the team, and you can smash Carracosta with a Fighting move.
Ghetsis: Hydreigon, Seismitoad
On average, you kill two mons a team at least.

I guess Darmanitan's best positive for the late game is its incredible stats. It has a huge Attack stat, and fairly decent Speed as well. However, what it has in those fields, it lacks in bulk. Darmanitan runs the risk of dying to a lot of attacks, and will probably not be able to take any super effective hit. This means that Darmanitan either has to OHKO the opposing Pokemon before taking a heavy hit, or it might as well just die. It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.

Uh, it's not quite as frail as you make it out to be. You have 105 HP as Darmanitan, which is enough to take a hit, though 55 defenses aren't optimal.

It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.

Fire Punch as a STAB move is OHKOing a lot of things. Even as Darumaka:
75 power*1.5=112.5*1.5=112.5+33.75=168.75 damage.
As Darmanitan:
75 power*1.5=112.5*0.30=112.5+33.75=146.25 damage.
Note I'm not the best with damage calcs, but seriously. Only Scrafty HJK, Archeops Acrobatics, or Excadrill EQ is this strong.
And Flare Blitz obviously destroys everything. 3 uses per major battle doesn't really matter when Fire Punch laughs at most, and most leaders have 3 mons. Let's not forget Darmanitan doesn't really have to setup.

This isn't to say Darmanitan isn't a good Pokemon to use in this game, that is. Being strong is obviously a crazy good thing, and will tear through a lot of teams. The early availability of Darumaka is also extremely helpful, giving you another relatively strong Pokemon right after the third gym. However, as discussed, that strength wears off until just after the 6th gym. There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.

Um, you get it pre-Burgh, actually. It's not even that bad of a walk, and you can pick up Amulet Coin and Eviolite on the way, both helpful.
How does base 90 Attack wear off? Only Archen overpowers it. Add in the fact most don't reach final form until mid 30s and nothing really compares to it's power aside from Sigilyph or Sawk (both A tiers).

There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.

Objection, Your Honor, relevance? We are not considering opportunity cost unless it is something like a starter or a fossil.

I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage. While it is found a bit after the 5th gym, I don't see how availability is ever an issue in this way. If a Pokemon is found in the late game, I definitely don't think that should affect their rank, considering you don't get six Pokemon right off the bat. Pokemon is designed to plan your team out widespread, rather than filling your team before half way through the game. Most people go with that route (not saying that is the wrong way to play the game, but it isn't the way it was intended to be done) and end up not being able to pick up some cooler late game Pokemon like Druddigon and Pawniard. On top of that, most people still have room for Galvantula by the time they get to that point of the game, especially shown in the picture of teams above.

S tier? Are you for real?

Look, I'm not trying to discredit your opinion, but it has been established repeatedly that Joltik is an A. Personally, I even have issues with A, because while Compound Eyes Thunder is great, you don't get the option until Iccirus. Sure, you have Skyla but any mon with an attack smashes Skyla so it's not an accomplishment. It's also not as good in matchups as it seems on paper.

Let's not forget Bug STAB (the one that matters more in endgame) will be Signal Beam as it gets Bug Buzz at 60, which is by and large never happening before postgame. 75 power is good, but Galvantula doesn't have the stats to really use it without issue. 97 Sp. Atk is serviceable with Thunder, but I can definitely see it missing OHKOs in the E4 with Signal Beam.

Skyla is easy, but I never see you sweeping Brycen. Cryogonal has the bulk to live Thunder, and there's a decent chance it may be faster (105 vs. 108 Speed isn't super guaranteed depending on level). I also doubt you OHKO Beartic, who has Rock Slide to laugh at you.

What is it doing versus Drayden again? Signal Beam? His mons are bulky enough to live it-I doubt you sweep here.

Rivals are fine save for Simisear and Emboar, though I doubt you OHKO Musharna. Stoutland probably lives and hits you hard. Cheren is a joke really so he's not notable.

League time.
Shauntal: Uh, I doubt it beats anything besides Jellicent. You can Thunder things but there's a decent chance Cursed Body may disable it. I also doubt you OHKO anything, as 97 Special Attack falls a little here.
Grimsley: You can maybe sweep here, but it's shaky. Scrafty lives and fires back with Crunch, Liepard uses Fake Out, and Bisharp can probably live a Thunder (65/70 bulk makes it possible to survive, albeit unlikely, especially if underleveled).
Caitlin: Her mons are too bulky to kill with Signal Beam. All will fire back with STAB Psychic. You'll be lucky to kill two.
Marshall: Too bulky and Stone Edge everywhere.
N: Dragon is bad, Carracosta lives and one-shots back, Archeops likely outspeeds and OHKOs, Zoroark might outspeed and Flamethrower...Vanilluxe and Klinklang are neutral.
Ghetsis: Yeah, I don't see Galvantula doing much at all here. You aren't outspeeding Hydreigon nor one-shotting it, my Stoutland of 120 Speed failed to outspeed, and Hydreigon's 92/90/90 bulk can take a hit fine. At best you hit something hard then die.

Since someone is going to bring up Galvantula vs. Eelektross, let's talk about that. Both Pokemon get some nice coverage, although Eelektross probably succeeds on that front. It also succeeds on the damage front as well, carrying a much higher Special Attack stat. However, what makes Galvantula so much better than Eelektross is Galvantula's Speed. Galvantula is extremely fast. This allows Galvantula to be on the weaker side, as it can simply just 2HKO through out speeds. Galvantula also has some good utility moves as well, including Thunder Wave and Electro Web. That's really what I think makes Galvantula better than Eelektross, I guess it is more team dependent if anything, but I think most people want a Pokemon like Galvantula, especially in a casual setting, when most people want fast-paced game play.

Eelektross is awful, and nobody should use it. Look at Tynamo's stats:
HP: 35
Attack: 55
Defense: 40
Sp. Atk: 45
Sp. Def: 40
Speed: 60
This is what you have to put up with for 12 levels, and you still have to find the thing in the first place. This is not anywhere near the best Electric, and no matter the coverage or lack of weaknesses, Eelektross is slow and overhyped. At best it's D tier, simply because Tynamo is gutter trash and Eelektross doesn't roll over E4 like it should for all the effort invested.

Electroweb and T-Wave? Why would I use these on a frail mon when I could be using Thunder? Most mons you'll outspeed.

Joltik and Galvantula are not S tier. If they are, then Axew should be S tier instantly, because it dumpsters endgame.

By all means, great post, and I respect your opinion. You are very well-informed. I could maybe see Darumaka dropping to A. But Joltik to S is not something I will ever be comfortable with-I can see it in B.

As for Darumaka to S, look at how many support it:

-Darumaka, even with Hustle, is still an S-rank mon imo. It can miss a move or two, but in most good matchups (Ice, Steel, Bug, and Grass), it isn't too threatened anyways. Has a high encounter rate, gets ridiculous moves, and is obtained relatively early. Evolving it into Darmanitan makes it a beast. Clearly something an S rank mon would have.

In my last Black playthrough, Darumaka was a continuous nuke button, from the moment I caught it, up until the very end. It learns hard hitting moves early on, has great coverage throughout the game, and hits hard enough to take down most foes with just neutral damage.

Indeed, missing with Hustle sucks. But for me personally, it was never a major issue. I don't remember it costing me an important match. It's like paralysis, sometimes it won't happen for several battles, sometimes it'll happen 3 times in a row. You kind of "suffer through it", and you're rewarded with Sheer Force, which just DESTROYS.

I also agree about the recoil on Flare Blitz. That's why I just kept using Fire Punch all through the Elite Four. Darmanitan rarely had any issue 1-shotting things. I only used Flare Blitz when I needed the extra power to secure a kill against a foe that wasn't weak to Fire or the other coverage moves.

I personally agree with describing Darumaka as one of the best Pokemon in the game, deserving of a S-rank.

Took a quick look at some stuff in my old black file to remind what I used, some quick thoughts:

Archen: probably the biggest S in any gen
Darumaka: pretty close behind
Joltik: I remember this being A worthy now, I had Modest Compundeyes with Thunder / Thunderbolt / Charge Beam / Signal Beam and not having any issues at all

So yeah, I don't see why Darumaka should drop.

 

[Merritt]

We are not considering opportunity cost unless it is something like a starter or a fossil.

No, do not consider opportunity cost period. Don't rank down Snivy because it prevents you from using Oshawott for example, or Tirtouga because it prevents you from using Archen.

Assume the Pokemon is being used and rank it according to that.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

No, do not consider opportunity cost period. Don't rank down Snivy because it prevents you from using Oshawott for example, or Tirtouga because it prevents you from using Archen.

Assume the Pokemon is being used and rank it according to that.

Okay, I will not consider opportunity cost.

That said I don't see Snivy as A. It has performance issues lategame, and although you can set up with Coil, its matchups are so inconsistent I just can't see A tier. B tier is fairly generous as is.

I mean you have one turn for Leech Seed and like two for Coil at least. The final three gyms (as well as Gyms 3 and 4) really don't like the thing-the only one it can sweep is Skyla, and if she crits you die. You also have to be 36 or it falls flat. And it doesn't really have many choices for move diversity.

I will be using it soon and this has been argued to death and I'm sick of it. Even if it was the best set-up sweeper of all time, I'd have issues ranking it highly, simply because mono-Grass is bad offensively and so many major battles are stacked against it.

 

[Giratina93]

Did Pansage really suck enough to be E? If anything the most E-worthy Grass is Foongus.

It was bad. Really, REALLY bad. Let's go over the matchups it has in the game:

Gym 1: If I had started off with Tepig, it would have been invaluable here. Alas, I had Oshawott, so I only picked up the grass monkey afterward.

Lenora: Even if I had Tepig, Ahahahahaha-no. Literally death fodder.

Burgh: AHAHAHAHAHAHA- NO.

N (Nimbasa, because it's the only fight hard enough for me to consider a major battle until the endgame): Sigilyph eats it alive.

Elesa: Emolga used Aerial Ace/Zebstrika used Flame Charge!

Clay: Okay, it can kill the Palpitoad and Krokorork with Seed Bomb... and then Excadrill rips it apart.

Skyla: ... you serious? Really?

Brycen: LOLNOPE. Rock Slide CAN put in work, but if you fail to one shot or flinch... the monkey ain't living.

Drayden: Outmuscled, outbulked.... it's a bad day to be a monkey.

Marshal: Did jack all there. Meishao has U-turn, and all four of its mons hit like dumptrucks

Shauntal: Jellicent can take a Seed Bomb and fire back with Shadow Ball, Golurk can as well, and lol Cofag and Chandelure.

Grimsley: LOLNOPE

Caitlyn: Again, Sigilyph eats it alive, and her mons are pretty tanky.

N: ... the Carracoasta dies, at least.

Ghetsis: ... Seismitoad dies, at least.

I'm sorry, but Pansage just doesn't work in this game. I have tried, and it performed really, REALLY badly outside of a couple of fringe cases that were literally stacked in its favor. It's rotting in either D or E tier, and in my eyes, it's going in E if your not using Tepig.

 

[Yoshi]

What does this prove? Scrafty reaches Scrafty at level 39. Archen reaches Archeops at level 37. Of the four S tiers, only Drilbur (which has the most rough time getting off the ground imo) reaches earlier than Darumaka at level 31. Speaking of Drilbur, Darumaka actually has marginally higher bulk than Drilbur, and 5 points higher in Attack. What Scraggy falls behind in stats, it more than makes up for in moves. You can even catch one at level 20 in the inner Desert Resort ready to go with Brick Break, though it misses out on a couple rival fights. And Scraggy sweeps Clay, Brycen, likely Drayden, Shauntal, Caitlin (save Sigilyph), and N and Ghetsis if you are smart. Archen is unquestionably best in both stats and matchups.

Perhaps I should elaborate more. This point ties in more with one of my future points, that Darumaka becomes fairly weak. More on that later though, as you did respond to that portion.

This is untrue. Most have been about level 36-38 around here. Skyla's ace is 35, and Darmanitan can easily tank through Swoobat and Unfezant.
With a six mon team, it's still doable if you prepare in advance.

Nah if you are playing casually and not grinding, you won't be around that range. I have played through Black and White several times and I have had to grind to get to that point at that point in the game several times, even with spreading my team out in terms of where and when I pick up mons, as well as with previous grinding. I am not saying that with a six mon team you can't beat Skyla, that's not super relevant to the Darmanitan argument. The point wasn't that Darmanitan couldn't beat some of Skyla's Pokemon, it was really just to say that it might struggle against certain gym leaders and important fights.

Darumaka can be equipped with Dig and Rock Tomb almost immediately, with Rock Slide and Brick Break later. What do you mean it doesn't get good coverage?

That's still not really good coverage, lol. That's nothing additional to what I noted in my post. Rock + Fighting + Fire doesn't exactly cover too much, it still leaves you vulnerable to Water-types, as well some of the bulkier Dragon-types of Unova (more specifically Druddigon). I am not saying that Darmanitan doesn't have coverage, but it is certainly far from perfect.

Fire Punch as a STAB move is OHKOing a lot of things. Even as Darumaka:
75 power*1.5=112.5*1.5=112.5+33.75=168.75 damage.
As Darmanitan:
75 power*1.5=112.5*0.30=112.5+33.75=146.25 damage.
Note I'm not the best with damage calcs, but seriously. Only Scrafty HJK, Archeops Acrobatics, or Excadrill EQ is this strong.
And Flare Blitz obviously destroys everything. 3 uses per major battle doesn't really matter when Fire Punch laughs at most, and most leaders have 3 mons. Let's not forget Darmanitan doesn't really have to setup.

Okay I'll give you this, but if you're going through the game without frequently stopping and grinding, you're going to be underleveld. With that in mind, you either have to OHKO, or you run the risk of taking an extremely heavy hit. Of course, you can always stop and grind, but that wastes a lot of time, and some people would prefer just to play the game. "Setup" is irrelevant to the argument to be honest, sure it is strong by itself, but so are a bunch of other Pokemon, even in the A ranks.

Um, you get it pre-Burgh, actually. It's not even that bad of a walk, and you can pick up Amulet Coin and Eviolite on the way, both helpful.
How does base 90 Attack wear off? Only Archen overpowers it. Add in the fact most don't reach final form until mid 30s and nothing really compares to it's power aside from Sigilyph or Sawk (both A tiers).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I definitely don't think you can get it pre-Burgh. I am fairly certain that the desert is blocked off until you beat Burgh, and if it isn't, that is a great opportunity to get Darumaka, I will give you that. Eviolite is an extremely helpful item too yeah, forgot about that admittedly. In terms of the 90 Attack wearing off, by the time you get near Skyla, you're going to have Pokemon with a strong Attack / Special Attack stat than base 90. I think you missed my point there, there are dozens of other Pokemon that are strong than base 90 that you are over sighting will have access to by that point in the game.

S tier? Are you for real?

Look, I'm not trying to discredit your opinion, but it has been established repeatedly that Joltik is an A. Personally, I even have issues with A, because while Compound Eyes Thunder is great, you don't get the option until Iccirus. Sure, you have Skyla but any mon with an attack smashes Skyla so it's not an accomplishment. It's also not as good in matchups as it seems on paper.

Let's not forget Bug STAB (the one that matters more in endgame) will be Signal Beam as it gets Bug Buzz at 60, which is by and large never happening before postgame. 75 power is good, but Galvantula doesn't have the stats to really use it without issue. 97 Sp. Atk is serviceable with Thunder, but I can definitely see it missing OHKOs in the E4 with Signal Beam.

Skyla is easy, but I never see you sweeping Brycen. Cryogonal has the bulk to live Thunder, and there's a decent chance it may be faster (105 vs. 108 Speed isn't super guaranteed depending on level). I also doubt you OHKO Beartic, who has Rock Slide to laugh at you.

What is it doing versus Drayden again? Signal Beam? His mons are bulky enough to live it-I doubt you sweep here.

Rivals are fine save for Simisear and Emboar, though I doubt you OHKO Musharna. Stoutland probably lives and hits you hard. Cheren is a joke really so he's not notable.

I don't really know what to say here to be honest, your points are just kind of off. Fun fact: You can get the TM for Thunderbolt the second you get Surf, so waiting for Thunder isn't a massive problem. Sure, the Bug STAB is Signal Beam, but that gets the job done versus a team like Draiden's. You're going to bring up that I discredited Fire Punch earlier, but the reason I say that about Darumaka and not Joltik is that Darumaka doesn't really have an option that doesn't already take down it's frailness (which btw, 105 HP doesn't mean much with its shit defenses). Galvantula on the other hand eventually does get a better Bug STAB, albeit level 60 is fairly late on my part.

There's other things I could've brought up but I by no means want to start any sort of drama, or go into anything that doesn't add to my argument.

 

[Magnus0]

Nah if you are playing casually and not grinding, you won't be around that range. I have played through Black and White several times and I have had to grind to get to that point at that point in the game several times, even with spreading my team out in terms of where and when I pick up mons, as well as with previous grinding. I am not saying that with a six mon team you can't beat Skyla, that's not super relevant to the Darmanitan argument. The point wasn't that Darmanitan couldn't beat some of Skyla's Pokemon, it was really just to say that it might struggle against certain gym leaders and important fights.

It is very reasonable to reach level 35 before Skyla. You get the lucky egg in chargestone cave and there´s a lot of exp in Celestial tower.

That's still not really good coverage, lol. That's nothing additional to what I noted in my post. Rock + Fighting + Fire doesn't exactly cover too much, it still leaves you vulnerable to Water-types, as well some of the bulkier Dragon-types of Unova (more specifically Druddigon). I am not saying that Darmanitan doesn't have coverage, but it is certainly far from perfect.

Rock + Fighting + fire is solid coverage, hits a lot of stuff super effectively. Sure it doesn't cover water types, but not every pokemon is perfect. Dragon is rare, and so is water really, plus you wouldn't want to use a fire type against those types anyway. There is almost no pokemon with absolutely perfect coverage, so I don't get why Darmanitans coverage, which for the record is really not bad compared to a lot of other good pokemon, is not good enough.

Okay I'll give you this, but if you're going through the game without frequently stopping and grinding, you're going to be underleveld. With that in mind, you either have to OHKO, or you run the risk of taking an extremely heavy hit. Of course, you can always stop and grind, but that wastes a lot of time, and some people would prefer just to play the game. "Setup" is irrelevant to the argument to be honest, sure it is strong by itself, but so are a bunch of other Pokemon, even in the A ranks.

I really don't get what you do to have your pokemon underleveled without grinding. I always use five pokemon and I'm always either on level or overleveled (compared to the gym leaders' aces) from just beating all trainers in the game. The only time in the game where you are underleveled is at the E4, where there is a sudden spike of like five levels. Do you not use the lucky egg perhaps?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I definitely don't think you can get it pre-Burgh. I am fairly certain that the desert is blocked off until you beat Burgh, and if it isn't, that is a great opportunity to get Darumaka, I will give you that. Eviolite is an extremely helpful item too yeah, forgot about that admittedly. In terms of the 90 Attack wearing off, by the time you get near Skyla, you're going to have Pokemon with a strong Attack / Special Attack stat than base 90. I think you missed my point there, there are dozens of other Pokemon that are strong than base 90 that you are over sighting will have access to by that point in the game.

You can catch darmanitan on route 4. You don't need to go to the desert resort at all, which means that you get it before Burgh. 90 base attack isn't bad at all and I'm certain it won't fall off at any point in the game. Hell, Scrafty has 90 base attack and he is in S, even evolving later than Darumaka too. I don't think there are 'dozens of other pokemon that are stronger than base 90 attack' at around Skyla, because EVERYTHING evolves late in this gen and 90 base power is stronger than a lot of other pre-evolutions. Not to mention hustle boost. And again, it's very possible to evolve Darumaka before Skyla, and let me tell you that there are definitely not dozens of pokemon with stronger than 140 base attack.

I don't really know what to say here to be honest, your points are just kind of off. Fun fact: You can get the TM for Thunderbolt the second you get Surf, so waiting for Thunder isn't a massive problem. Sure, the Bug STAB is Signal Beam, but that gets the job done versus a team like Draiden's. You're going to bring up that I discredited Fire Punch earlier, but the reason I say that about Darumaka and not Joltik is that Darumaka doesn't really have an option that doesn't already take down it's frailness (which btw, 105 HP doesn't mean much with its shit defenses). Galvantula on the other hand eventually does get a better Bug STAB, albeit level 60 is fairly late on my part.

There's other things I could've brought up but I by no means want to start any sort of drama, or go into anything that doesn't add to my argument.

You get surf at the entrence of Mistralton cave, and you can get thunder in Icirrus city which is at the exit of Mistralton cave essentialy. This means that the only part of the game where you can make use of thunderbolt before thunder is available is Mistralton cave itself. That's definitely not worth the detour that thunderbolt requires. The argument that using signal beam is okay because Galvantula does eventually get a better move is absolutely absurd. Level 60 is not 'fairly late', it's unreachable, 100% out of the question. You can do the entire post game and still not reach level 60. Sheer force fire punch from 140 attack >>>> signal beam from 97 special attack, shouldn't be hard to understand.

A lot of these points are really unfounded or straight up misinformation. Give us some matchup to prove your point. I'm actually not opposed to Darumaka dropping to A, but I want to see some proof first. Joltik in S is not going to happen. It already struggles to keep in A.

 

[Yoshi]

It is very reasonable to reach level 35 before Skyla. You get the lucky egg in chargestone cave and there´s a lot of exp in Celestial tower.

Eh in my experience this has almost never been this case. I admittedly don't use the Lucky Egg, but I do a thorough search of Celestial Tower.

Rock + Fighting + fire is solid coverage, hits a lot of stuff super effectively. Sure it doesn't cover water types, but not every pokemon is perfect. Dragon is rare, and so is water really, plus you wouldn't want to use a fire type against those types anyway. There is almost no pokemon with absolutely perfect coverage, so I don't get why Darmanitans coverage, which for the record is really not bad compared to a lot of other good pokemon, is not good enough.

I would agree with your "but not every Pokemon is perfect" statement if this were the only point I was making about Darumaka. It is the combination of points that makes me believe Darumaka should drop, and there's definitely more than the Water weakness. Dragon-types being uncommon would be true if it weren't the 8th gym leader, and several trainers from Iccirus city onward packing Pokemon like Druddigon, they do become more common than you think. The reason I point out Darmanitan's not-so-perfect coverage is to just add on to the list of issues with it. I'm not saying that the other S rank Pokemon don't have issues with coverage (Drilburr certainly does), but I am saying that it is part of the problem with Darumaka.

You can catch darmanitan on route 4. You don't need to go to the desert resort at all, which means that you get it before Burgh. 90 base attack isn't bad at all and I'm certain it won't fall off at any point in the game. Hell, Scrafty has 90 base attack and he is in S, even evolving later than Darumaka too. I don't think there are 'dozens of other pokemon that are stronger than base 90 attack' at around Skyla, because EVERYTHING evolves late in this gen and 90 base power is stronger than a lot of other pre-evolutions. Not to mention hustle boost. And again, it's very possible to evolve Darumaka before Skyla, and let me tell you that there are definitely not dozens of pokemon with stronger than 140 base attack.

Yeah that's fair, I talked to some people on Discord and I realized you can find Darumaka before Desert Resort, that's my mistake. I don't think your other points on all Pokemon evolving late isn't fair at all because that simply isn't the case. The reason Scrafty is S rank is because of its bulk and fantastic typing moreso than the Attack stat, and is still very effective throughout all the game. Darmanitan is a lategame monster, but while it is Darumaka, it just doesn't perform well until after Skyla. This is from my personal experience as well, as I have done several play throughs with Darmanitan myself. My point isn't to decimate Darmanitan entirely, I still think it is a fantastic Pokemon to use in-game, but I do feel that it is the weakest S-rank by a margin. Since you're talking about Hustle, Hustle actually works against Darumaka, and is something I hadn't brought up before. Multiplying accuracy by .8% (I believe that is the number, correct me if I'm wrong) really sucks, and while it is strong, if you get unlucky and miss, you're going to be taking a hard hit and potentially getting KOd if the circumstances are even a little bit in the opponent's favor. Perhaps you can argue that this is an exaggeration and perhaps it is, but there's no denying that Hustle is a double edged sword. Yeah you can evolve Darumaka before Skyla, but that's still not the point. You'd have to travel all the way to Celestial Tower to do that realistically (in my experience), but I digress (it is still required, but it is additional time spent grinding depending on how you progress). Additionally, there are not dozens of Pokemon stronger than 140 Base Attack, I was referring to the 90.

You get surf at the entrence of Mistralton cave, and you can get thunder in Icirrus city which is at the exit of Mistralton cave essentialy. This means that the only part of the game where you can make use of thunderbolt before thunder is available is Mistralton cave itself. That's definitely not worth the detour that thunderbolt requires. The argument that using signal beam is okay because Galvantula does eventually get a better move is absolutely absurd. Level 60 is not 'fairly late', it's unreachable, 100% out of the question. You can do the entire post game and still not reach level 60. Sheer force fire punch from 140 attack >>>> signal beam from 97 special attack, shouldn't be hard to understand.

Woah, I never compared Darmanitan to Galvantula at all, and even if I were to in some connection, I made it clear what type of positives Galvantula might have over Darmanitan without directly mentioning it. There's more Pokemon than just raw strength. Perhaps my Signal Beam and Bug Buzz point is absurd, but I definitely disagree that a lot of my points are misinformed or baseless. Perhaps you have a different experience than me playing in-game, I am really just going off of what I found. Darmanitan is not a Pokemon that I would consistently put on one of my teams, like the other three S rank Pokemon. Also, just to note on the Thunderbolt thing, yeah you're right about that. I guess if you didn't manage to pick up Compound Eyes you might want to just grab it instead? The journey is not out of the way at all, it's just a simple Fly back to Route 1.

 

[Altissimo]

Two things:

Overall, this is saddening me.

Oh boy...

Are you kidding me?

Vanillite: Not budging either. Literally everyone else that has commented on the mon but you has said C.

What does this prove?

Objection, Your Honor, relevance?

S tier? Are you for real?

Please stop being a jerk.

I'm not saying it's not effective, what I'm saying is before I bump something up to A tier I want to use it first. Like with Lillipup and Throh.

I want to say before talking about these that this is a great post overall. However, I'm going to make my opinion known. I have soloed the game with Darumaka with only 2 whiteouts and used it in other runs, so I have plenty of experience with it. I have used Joltik slightly less, but still have experience with it.

Look, I'm not trying to discredit your opinion, but it has been established repeatedly that Joltik is an A.

I will be using [Snivy] soon and this has been argued to death and I'm sick of it.

And please stop discouraging other people from contributing their own opinions.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Two things:















Please stop being a jerk.









And please stop discouraging other people from contributing their own opinions.

And I can't voice my own opinions because? I'm sorry I'm trying to list Joltk isn't S tier worthy? A tier is fine. I responded with a rational argument of my opinion. I was a little incredulous, sure, but I didn't insult anyone's opinion. I think S tier is a huge jump and thorough testing will need to be done if it's tiering should rise or stay.

I apologize for insulting anyone in the past. I will try to be much nicer in the future.

 

[Magnus0]

I would agree with your "but not every Pokemon is perfect" statement if this were the only point I was making about Darumaka. It is the combination of points that makes me believe Darumaka should drop, and there's definitely more than the Water weakness. Dragon-types being uncommon would be true if it weren't the 8th gym leader, and several trainers from Iccirus city onward packing Pokemon like Druddigon, they do become more common than you think. The reason I point out Darmanitan's not-so-perfect coverage is to just add on to the list of issues with it. I'm not saying that the other S rank Pokemon don't have issues with coverage (Drilburr certainly does), but I am saying that it is part of the problem with Darumaka.

I´m not trying to discredit ALL of your points at once by saying not every pokemon is perfect either.

There is a grand total of ONE trainer using a dragon type from Icirrus on, an ace trainer on route 10 with a fraxure. This is without counting Drayden of course. Please show me the several trainers with a Druddigon. Edit: there's a guy with a Fraxure at moor of Icirrus as well. Still not enough to make dragons common though.

You also just kinda gloss over the fact that I said that Darmanitan doesn´t have bad coverage at all. It´s coverage isn´t part of the problem, it´s really not a problem to begin with.

Yeah that's fair, I talked to some people on Discord and I realized you can find Darumaka before Desert Resort, that's my mistake. I don't think your other points on all Pokemon evolving late isn't fair at all because that simply isn't the case. The reason Scrafty is S rank is because of its bulk and fantastic typing moreso than the Attack stat, and is still very effective throughout all the game. Darmanitan is a lategame monster, but while it is Darumaka, it just doesn't perform well until after Skyla. This is from my personal experience as well, as I have done several play throughs with Darmanitan myself. My point isn't to decimate Darmanitan entirely, I still think it is a fantastic Pokemon to use in-game, but I do feel that it is the weakest S-rank by a margin. Since you're talking about Hustle, Hustle actually works against Darumaka, and is something I hadn't brought up before. Multiplying accuracy by .8% (I believe that is the number, correct me if I'm wrong) really sucks, and while it is strong, if you get unlucky and miss, you're going to be taking a hard hit and potentially getting KOd if the circumstances are even a little bit in the opponent's favor. Perhaps you can argue that this is an exaggeration and perhaps it is, but there's no denying that Hustle is a double edged sword. Yeah you can evolve Darumaka before Skyla, but that's still not the point. You'd have to travel all the way to Celestial Tower to do that realistically (in my experience), but I digress. Additionally, there are not dozens of Pokemon stronger than 140 Base Attack, I was referring to the 90.

Darmanitan is not strictly a late game pokemon. 90 base power as Darumaka is STRONG, especially during the mid game when enemies still don´t use particularly powerful pokemon.

I know hustle has its downside. However, it does make Darumaka´s moves stronger on top of its far from bad attack stat. I brought it up, because you apparently weren´t satisfied with Darumaka´s power before Skyla even though it is literally one of the most powerful pokemon exactly because of hustle.

Celestial tower is MANDATORY. You have to ring the bell before you can fight Skyla. Honestly, I really doubt if you´ve even played the game recently mainly because of your comment on ´traveling all the way to Celestial tower´. I don´t want to be rude, but if your experience wasn´t at least somewhat recent, it´s probably not as accurate as it could be. I don't want to accuse you or anything.

Woah, I never compared Darmanitan to Galvantula at all, and even if I were to in some connection, I made it clear what type of positives Galvantula might have over Darmanitan without directly mentioning it. There's more Pokemon than just raw strength. Perhaps my Signal Beam and Bug Buzz point is absurd, but I definitely disagree that a lot of my points are misinformed or baseless. Perhaps you have a different experience than me playing in-game, I am really just going off of what I found. Darmanitan is not a Pokemon that I would consistently put on one of my teams, like the other three S rank Pokemon. Also, just to note on the Thunderbolt thing, yeah you're right about that. I guess if you didn't manage to pick up Compound Eyes you might want to just grab it instead? The journey is not out of the way at all, it's just a simple Fly back to Route 1.

Okay, this is what I got from your posts. First you pointed out that fire punch is not really a serviceble STAB because it doesn´t get OHKO´s somehow. Then you said that signal beam probably gets the job done for Galvantula. This makes no sense because of this ´Sheer force fire punch from 140 attack >>>> signal beam from 97 special attack´. Then you parried your own comment about signal beam by saying that Galvantula eventually gets bug buzz, but this is a non-argument because you will never ever get bug buzz even with extensive grinding. Tell me if I read something wrong, but if this is what you were trying to say then it makes little sense. Even though flare blitz is not ideal for Darmanitan, it's still better for it than bug buzz is for Galvantula because flare blitz is acually an available option you can use if you want to.

A detour is still a detour. I personally wouldn't mind flying back to route 1 because I'm a casual player, but this is a tier list about effeciency. Having to make a detour, how short that detour might be, is going to affect tier placement for the pokemon that needs the detour. Then again, Joltik really doesn't need thunderbolt in the first place because it gets compoundeyes thunder. Like, why would you even use it if you're not going for thunder?

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Started a new run with Snivy, Panpour and Throh. At Lenora.

Got Lax Snivy first try. It's been decent, mostly 3HKOing things with Vine Whip. Once a Servine with Leaf Tornado, it's okay. You 2HKO or 3HKO most things.

I resetted for a decent Panpour 3 times until Mild with great IVs. Even then, I still roughly 3HKO most of the earlygame. Good, but not the best start.

Throh I got a great Relaxed Guts one first try. Been amazing and takes nothing from anything.

Snivy's matchups are average to good for the early-game, with it handling most mooks and the Normals fine. A pretty okay start, like Panpour.

Throh is a bit hard to judge since I just got it. Lenora is a slightly shaky matchup unless you let something die to Intimidate. You 2HKO her mons, but they hit hard enough to threaten you, though Throh should survive a boosted Retalitate taking about half from it.

Servine is solid against Lenora. Can beat Herdier pretty easily and outspeed and roughly 2HKO Watchog with Miracle Seed.

Panpour is pretty bad against Lenora. Her mons are too bulky and hit too hard to reliably take on (Herdier can even OHKO you with Take Down).
You do minimal damage in return.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I want to say I again apologize to anyone I have been snidely dismissing based on their opinions of certain Pokemon. Sometimes I don't think through the implications of my words properly, and I actually feel really bad about this...I am new to leading a thread like this, but I want to make things right.

Kurai_Seishen, Altissimo, VagueKatti, Magnus0, Yoshi, Stellar...I apologize for my rude remarks in the past, and everyone has the right to call me out on these mean statements. I let things get to my head and was wrong for it. Your opinions are all valid and I'm truly sorry for responding to them in a rude way. I hope you can forgive me for my brash statements and I can take a more nuanced neutral opinion to tiering in the future.

I'm going to try to be posting less and less from now on despite keeping an eye on the tier list. Going to let things play out a bit more.

Thanks for all your testing and your patience - you guys are the best.

 

[earl]

Swept Burgh with Eviolite Roggenrola, after 1 Iron Defense on his whirlipede it's basically over. Rola is A so far, Sawk is S

Currently running with Boldore and Sawk. Gonna pick up a Maractus and I want to use Accelgor, so I think that's my full team.

 

[Turdterra]

First off, I would like to apologize for the discord I caused in the thread. Was never my intent on doing so. Second, I would like to apologize to Stellar for the way I acted. Moving on from this now, I have another update to do.

Tales of the Horrible Pansear (But with Excellent Friends): Chapter 2
***************************************************
​

Gym 3: Simisear (24->26) Bite/Work Up/Yawn/Flame Burst w/Charcoal
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, the level is high due to it being my only mon up to this point. Dewott was never used in this gym. Second, I had stated in the last post it had been grinded from 19 to 22 to get Flame Burst for Lenora. I have not grinded since nor will I be. (Incinerate is garbage. Get Flame Burst ASAP) Moving on, not much to say in this fight after 4+ tests. Outcome was always the same. Work Up +1 and Flame Burst OHKOs Burgh.

In between these gyms I finally caught the remaining members of my team. Dweeble, Tirtouga, and Maractus. Like I say first impressions I take seriously and Maractus is currently the least leveled at 22. Due to its starting movepool it cannot really take on many Pokemon where you catch it. Darumaka, Sigiyph, and Yamask wall it or outright kill it. It was primarily used on Psychic types for its Pin Missile. Hence the low Level. I do have high hopes for it in Driftveil though. Tirtouga has not been used much. I focused more on Dweeble to get it off its feet. Titouga has Crunch and Aqua Jet, two very good starting moves for a Pokemon that involves back tracking and being post Gym 3. Not to mention comes in at a nice level 25.

Gym 4: Simisear (29 -> 30) Bite/Work Up/Yawn/Flame Burst @ Charcoal
Dweeble (26) Bug Bite/Stealth Rock/Rock Tomb/Rock Polish @ Eviolite, Bold
Tirtouga (25 ->26) Aqua Jet/Crunch/Ancient Power/Wide Guard, Adamant
Maractus (22) Pin Missle/Mega Drain/Synthesis/Cotton Spore w/Miracle Seed, Naive
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dweeble set up Stealth Rock first turn for Volt Switch gimmicks. It did take a Volt Switch to the face though. Next turn I used Rock Polish and took another Switch. The Rocks begin to start doing their job. (BE TICKLED FOUL CREATURES). I heal this turn and take another Switch. More tickling rocks of doom ensue. At this point, I go for another polish to look snazzy and outspeed anything. Another Switch and another heal. More tickles. I go on the offensive and use Rock Tomb dropping one of the Emolgas to low red. Unfortunately, Dweeble is crit and defeated by a switch. I would have reset the game at this point but I forgot to save. But I believe the general consensus is that Dweeble can handle the Emoglas, but not the Zeb without a decent use of items. Tirtouga comes in and a Emolga (that has been tickled to yellow) comes out. I hit with Aqua Jet dropping it to red and it hits me with a Switch. Tirtouga survives with 9 HP thanks to Solid Rock. The tickles finally end one of these foul creatures and Tirtouga lives to fight another.....fight. Yet another creature of the skies succumbs to the power of the tickling stones. Tirtouga levels to 26. Zeb comes out and after being tickled, is hit with Aqua Jet dealing a good amount but not enough to drop to Yellow. Tirtouga falls to the horse. I send in Maractus full well knowing that it has Flame Charge. (Was wishing I had Leech Seed rn). I start to attack with Mega Drain hoping to heal the damage off of Quick Attack. Eventually Maractus succumbs to a combination of Flame Charge and Quick Attack. Simisear comes out much to my chagrin (I honestly did not want to use Simisear here. It was level 29 at this point and I knew it would hit 30). Alas, after 2HKO with Flame Burst, I beat Elesa.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outside of the whoopsie on Elesa testing, the team is okay. Dweeble does for sure have offensive issues. Rock Tomb was just kept for the Super effective damage of the gym and will be replaced for Dig. (Yes I know Slide is in 3 Levels). Maractus will be raised in the upcoming trainer fights as will Tirtouga. Sear is now in that awkward phase where I can already foresee it falling off a bit until Iccirus.

Also I would like to ask what is considered backtracking? Is it getting TMs that would help a Pokemon? (need clarification here as Solarbeam is back tracking and this could be used for Maractus instead of waiting late 30s), obtaining another Pokemon (Much like Axew), or getting items in general that could help you down the line.

 

[Detective Barricade]

First off, I would like to apologize for the discord I caused in the thread. Was never my intent on doing so. Second, I would like to apologize to Stellar for the way I acted. Moving on from this now, I have another update to do.

Tales of the Horrible Pansear (But with Excellent Friends): Chapter 2
***************************************************
​

Gym 3: Simisear (24->26) Bite/Work Up/Yawn/Flame Burst w/Charcoal
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, the level is high due to it being my only mon up to this point. Dewott was never used in this gym. Second, I had stated in the last post it had been grinded from 19 to 22 to get Flame Burst for Lenora. I have not grinded since nor will I be. (Incinerate is garbage. Get Flame Burst ASAP) Moving on, not much to say in this fight after 4+ tests. Outcome was always the same. Work Up +1 and Flame Burst OHKOs Burgh.

In between these gyms I finally caught the remaining members of my team. Dweeble, Tirtouga, and Maractus. Like I say first impressions I take seriously and Maractus is currently the least leveled at 22. Due to its starting movepool it cannot really take on many Pokemon where you catch it. Darumaka, Sigiyph, and Yamask wall it or outright kill it. It was primarily used on Psychic types for its Pin Missile. Hence the low Level. I do have high hopes for it in Driftveil though. Tirtouga has not been used much. I focused more on Dweeble to get it off its feet. Titouga has Crunch and Aqua Jet, two very good starting moves for a Pokemon that involves back tracking and being post Gym 3. Not to mention comes in at a nice level 25.

Gym 4: Simisear (29 -> 30) Bite/Work Up/Yawn/Flame Burst @ Charcoal
Dweeble (26) Bug Bite/Stealth Rock/Rock Tomb/Rock Polish @ Eviolite, Bold
Tirtouga (25 ->26) Aqua Jet/Crunch/Ancient Power/Wide Guard, Adamant
Maractus (22) Pin Missle/Mega Drain/Synthesis/Cotton Spore w/Miracle Seed, Naive
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dweeble set up Stealth Rock first turn for Volt Switch gimmicks. It did take a Volt Switch to the face though. Next turn I used Rock Polish and took another Switch. The Rocks begin to start doing their job. (BE TICKLED FOUL CREATURES). I heal this turn and take another Switch. More tickling rocks of doom ensue. At this point, I go for another polish to look snazzy and outspeed anything. Another Switch and another heal. More tickles. I go on the offensive and use Rock Tomb dropping one of the Emolgas to low red. Unfortunately, Dweeble is crit and defeated by a switch. I would have reset the game at this point but I forgot to save. But I believe the general consensus is that Dweeble can handle the Emoglas, but not the Zeb without a decent use of items. Tirtouga comes in and a Emolga (that has been tickled to yellow) comes out. I hit with Aqua Jet dropping it to red and it hits me with a Switch. Tirtouga survives with 9 HP thanks to Solid Rock. The tickles finally end one of these foul creatures and Tirtouga lives to fight another.....fight. Yet another creature of the skies succumbs to the power of the tickling stones. Tirtouga levels to 26. Zeb comes out and after being tickled, is hit with Aqua Jet dealing a good amount but not enough to drop to Yellow. Tirtouga falls to the horse. I send in Maractus full well knowing that it has Flame Charge. (Was wishing I had Leech Seed rn). I start to attack with Mega Drain hoping to heal the damage off of Quick Attack. Eventually Maractus succumbs to a combination of Flame Charge and Quick Attack. Simisear comes out much to my chagrin (I honestly did not want to use Simisear here. It was level 29 at this point and I knew it would hit 30). Alas, after 2HKO with Flame Burst, I beat Elesa.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outside of the whoopsie on Elesa testing, the team is okay. Dweeble does for sure have offensive issues. Rock Tomb was just kept for the Super effective damage of the gym and will be replaced for Dig. (Yes I know Slide is in 3 Levels). Maractus will be raised in the upcoming trainer fights as will Tirtouga. Sear is now in that awkward phase where I can already foresee it falling off a bit until Iccirus.

Also I would like to ask what is considered backtracking? Is it getting TMs that would help a Pokemon? (need clarification here as Solarbeam is back tracking and this could be used for Maractus instead of waiting late 30s), obtaining another Pokemon (Much like Axew), or getting items in general that could help you down the line.

If you have to go back to a previously explored area outside of the story requiring you to, for whatever reason, I believe that is backtracking. Like, you have to backtrack to revive Tirtouga or Archen from their respective fossils, or going back to Route 1 once you have Surf to access Route 17 and 18 and obtain the Larvesta egg.

 

[Turdterra]

If you have to go back to a previously explored area outside of the story requiring you to, for whatever reason, I believe that is backtracking. Like, you have to backtrack to revive Tirtouga or Archen from their respective fossils, or going back to Route 1 once you have Surf to access Route 17 and 18 and obtain the Larvesta egg.

Ah okay. Well regardless, I'll be backtracking to get Solarbeam maybe. Otherwise I get it at 50 for Maractus as next STAB is Giga Drain and I don't see another till 38 and that's Petal Dance.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Swept Burgh with Eviolite Roggenrola, after 1 Iron Defense on his whirlipede it's basically over. Rola is A so far, Sawk is S

Currently running with Boldore and Sawk. Gonna pick up a Maractus and I want to use Accelgor, so I think that's my full team.

Agree with both atm, at least Sawk being S. I will see how it compares in the next fights, though I see it raising to S.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

S is a high bar y'all. Be certain of your belief

 

[DHR-107]

I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage.

Joltik isn't S Rank worthy. It comes too late to have any meaningful impact and it has mediocre matchups throughout the end of the game outside of pulping Skyla. CE Thunder gives it reasonable power in neutral matchups and it can put in work against a variety of trainers, but it struggles vs Gym 8 and is useful against a handful of mons in the E4. Honestly, I'd go for B rank, but I can see A. Other Pokemon like Sawk are more likely to jump up.

Backtracking isn't always a bad thing if the pay off is big enough. Archen requires a backtrack and its still one of the best Pokemon in the entire game. It usually only counts against if it is a severe detour.

On the topic of Snivy: Its by far the worst pick of the starter trio. Unova in BW1 is not exactly kind to Grass types (don't get me wrong they aren't terrible either). They just have a lot of neutral matchups and they fall off hard in the endgame with the last 3 gyms being Flying, Ice and Dragon. Snivy's level up movepool is pretty awful as well, being stuck with the pretty bad Leaf Tornado for so long.

I'll have a dig through my old stuff and see if I can remember the highs/lows for things. I played a lot of non native mons throughout BW because of the lack of HM requirements/easy access to one of the "Primary" Stones.

I am keeping a close eye on this thread however and will continue to monitor how people are posting. Let's keep it civil please.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Joltik isn't S Rank worthy. It comes too late to have any meaningful impact and it has mediocre matchups throughout the end of the game outside of pulping Skyla. CE Thunder gives it reasonable power in neutral matchups and it can put in work against a variety of trainers, but it struggles vs Gym 8 and is useful against a handful of mons in the E4. Honestly, I'd go for B rank, but I can see A. Other Pokemon like Sawk are more likely to jump up.

Backtracking isn't always a bad thing if the pay off is big enough. Archen requires a backtrack and its still one of the best Pokemon in the entire game. It usually only counts against if it is a severe detour.

On the topic of Snivy: Its by far the worst pick of the starter trio. Unova in BW1 is not exactly kind to Grass types (don't get me wrong they aren't terrible either). They just have a lot of neutral matchups and they fall off hard in the endgame with the last 3 gyms being Flying, Ice and Dragon. Snivy's level up movepool is pretty awful as well, being stuck with the pretty bad Leaf Tornado for so long.

I'll have a dig through my old stuff and see if I can remember the highs/lows for things. I played a lot of non native mons throughout BW because of the lack of HM requirements/easy access to one of the "Primary" Stones.

I am keeping a close eye on this thread however and will continue to monitor how people are posting. Let's keep it civil please.

I couldn't have phrased it better, these echo my opinions on all of these facets perfectly.

Also I moved Escavelier up to B and Coballion down to B (after like forever).

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for Sawk, here's a summary of the pros and cons. I'm trying to keep it short for brevity's sake, but I have about a page and a quarter I can post if need be, with the only comparisons are to the other S ranks. I hope this post is fair and unbiased for the most part.

Pros:
-Comes early with strong stats: 75/75/75 bulk is enough to take a hit at this point and remember everything hasn't evolved on most mooks yet (and won't until about Chargestone Cave or so). Sawk also has a great 85 Speed, enough to outrun most of the game, including endgame which tends to favor slow, bulky attackers, and 125 Attack outmuscles all but the S tiers in raw power that you can use straight away.

-Starts with great moves and gets better: Level 17 Sawk starts with Low Sweep which is about the best early STAB you can ask for. Focus Energy can be okay with Karate Chop at 25 and Brick Break at 29. Bulk Up is great at 33, as is Close Combat at 49 and Reversal at 53 (300 BP at 1-4 HP against a neutral target). Sawk also has the usual Fighting type TM options (Dig/Tomb/Slide/Jab), Work Up and Retaliate.

-Sturdy is a good niche not any other naturally fast mons have.

-Sawk is on par with the other S tiers if not better against N and Ghetsis. Being able to take out Hydriegon reliably is huge, and it can easily take out half of either N or Ghetsis's team either way. I'd say it's better than Darmanitan and Archeops here (though you can set up with Darmanitan).

Cons:
-While we don't discount most mons on rarity, Sawk has a 10% rate (B) and a 5% rate (W, rustling)-relevant as some are unable to choose White. Disregarding version, rarity or rustling grass (see: Panpour for non-Snivy users, Sigilyph for rarity), Sawk is not the easiest thing to catch (45) when you only have a few Great Balls and only a few status options (Lick from monkeys, Yawn from Munna, Blitzle for Thunder Wave) as well as super effective options to know Sturdy from the offset. Hunting for a level 17 Sawk can also be problematic-I've had to run several times from Sawk/Throh in the past because they hit so hard early on. This is minor, sure, but even if it was easier to get I'm still not sure I could see it in S because...

-...The one big issue I have with Sawk is its midgame and endgame. Sawk doesn’t have the best matchups midgame save for rivals, though I can easily see it sweeping Clay as well as having a strong mook showing in general. Endgame wise, I find it hard so see Sawk dominating like most of the S tiers. Shauntal is immune to STAB, Caitlin resists, Marshall is neutral, and Grimsley is an obvious win. Compare this to the other S tiers, who generally only have one matchup they struggle with (Marshall for Excadrill or Scrafty) or can otherwise contribute with solid damage everywhere (Darmanitan, Archeops). Normally I wouldn't compare mons, but since the S tier merits have been comparatively judged before this has precedent.

Don't get me wrong, Sawk is easily one of the best mons in the game. I just can't quite see S when it's matchups aren't quite smooth sailing the whole way through, and Fighting STAB can be resisted quite frequently. I can maybe move it to S but I want some strong detailed arguments for it.

Minor thoughts on the other S tiers are in this post from early on in this tier list.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm not saying anyone's opinions are invalid anymore for wanting to move stuff to S. Even though I wasn't supportive of Joltk to S earlier, Yoshi provided good reasoning (not a jab at other users), with the only parts I really disagree with being mons should be S regardless of availability (when the various tiers dock points for coming late) and the matchups not being as great in practice.. He is not wrong for wanting to move Joltik to S, but I have similar feelings to DHR and could see it in B or staying in A. I could see A for Darumaka, but 3 people supported S, so it may not happen.
Ryota Mitarai and leonard (from big bang theory) are not wrong for wanting to move anything to S.

I tried to keep my paragraphs and thoughts concise in this post. I hope it was more focused than my past ones have been. I was going to post later than this, but I wanted to echo DHR's thoughts. As for the view on moving things to S, I only emphasized things so my intentions are clear.

Have a great day everyone, and feel free to challenge my points if you want to contest them!

 

[Detective Barricade]

I couldn't have phrased it better, these echo my opinions on all of these facets perfectly.

Also I moved Escavelier up to B and Coballion down to B (after like forever).

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for Sawk, here's a summary of the pros and cons. I'm trying to keep it short for brevity's sake, but I have about a page and a quarter I can post if need be, with the only comparisons are to the other S ranks. I hope this post is fair and unbiased for the most part.

Pros:
-Comes early with strong stats: 75/75/75 bulk is enough to take a hit at this point and remember everything hasn't evolved on most mooks yet (and won't until about Chargestone Cave or so). Sawk also has a great 85 Speed, enough to outrun most of the game, including endgame which tends to favor slow, bulky attackers, and 125 Attack outmuscles all but the S tiers in raw power that you can use straight away.

-Starts with great moves and gets better: Level 17 Sawk starts with Low Sweep which is about the best early STAB you can ask for. Focus Energy can be okay with Karate Chop at 25 and Brick Break at 29. Bulk Up is great at 33, as is Close Combat at 49 and Reversal at 53 (300 BP at 1-4 HP against a neutral target. Sawk also has the usual Fighting type TM options (Dig/Tomb/Slide/Jab), Work Up and Retaliate.

-Sturdy is a good niche not any other naturally fast mons have.

-Sawk is on par with the other S tiers if not better against N and Ghetsis. Being able to take out Hydriegon reliably is huge, and it can easily take out half of either N or Ghetsis's team either way. I'd say it's better than Darmanitan and Archeops here (though you can set up with Darmanitan).

Cons:
-While we don't discount most mons on rarity, Sawk has a 10% rate (B) and a 5% rate (W, rustling)-relevant as some are unable to choose White. Disregarding version, rarity or rustling grass (see: Panpour for non-Snivy users, Sigilyph for rarity), Sawk is not the easiest thing to catch (45) when you only have a few Great Balls and only a few status options (Lick from monkeys, Yawn from Munna, Blitzle for Thunder Wave) as well as super effective options to know Sturdy from the offset. Hunting for a level 17 Sawk can also be problematic-I've had to run several times from Sawk/Throh in the past because they hit so hard early on. This is minor, sure, but even if it was easier to get I'm still not sure I could see it in S because...

-...The one big issue I have with Sawk is it’s midgame and endgame. Sawk doesn’t have the best matchups midgame save for rivals, though I can easily see it sweeping Clay as well as having a strong mook showing in general. Endgame wise, I find it hard so see Sawk dominating like most of the S tiers. Shauntal is immune to STAB, Caitlin resists, Marshall is neutral, and Grimsley is an obvious win. Compare this to the other S tiers, who generally only have one matchup they struggle with (Marshall for Excadrill or Scrafty) or can otherwise contribute with solid damage everywhere (Darmanitan, Archeops). Normally I wouldn't compare mons, but since the S tier merits have been comparatively judged before this has precedent.

Don't get me wrong, Sawk is easily one of the best mons in the game. I just can't quite see S when it's matchups aren't quite smooth sailing the whole way through, and Fighting STAB can be resisted quite frequently. I can maybe move it to S but I want some strong detailed arguments for it.

Minor thoughts on the other S tiers are in this post from early on in this tier list.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm not saying anyone's opinions are invalid anymore for wanting to move stuff to S. Even though I wasn't supportive of Joltk to S earlier, Yoshi provided good reasoning (not a jab at other users), with the only parts I really disagree with being mons should be S regardless of availability (when the various tiers dock points for coming late) and the matchups not being as great in practice.. He is not wrong for wanting to move Joltik to S, but I have similar feelings to DHR and could see it in B or staying in A. I could see A for Darumaka, but 3 people supported S, so it may not happen.
Ryota Mitarai and leonard (from big bang theory) are not wrong for wanting to move anything to S.

I tried to keep my paragraphs and thoughts concise in this post. I hope it was more focused than my past ones have been. I was going to post later than this, but I wanted to echo DHR's thoughts. As for the view on moving things to S, I only emphasized things so my intentions are clear.

Have a great day everyone, and feel free to challenge my points if you want to contest them!

Honestly, I'd eliminate the distinction between Sawk and Throh between the games. (i.e. no separate entries for Black and White) Like Merritt said, we're assuming that the Pokemon in question is being used when tiering them. At most, it's something to bring up in availability, but otherwise shouldn't affect their placement.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Honestly, I'd eliminate the distinction between Sawk and Throh between the games. (i.e. no separate entries for Black and White) Like Merritt said, we're assuming that the Pokemon in question is being used when tiering them. At most, it's something to bring up in availability, but otherwise shouldn't affect their placement.

Will merge BW Sawk and Throh. Throh is going to B for now. But I did address this briefly (not a insult or attempt to be condescending):

This is minor, sure, but even if it was easier to get I'm still not sure I could see it in S because...

Thus, it doesn't really affect its placement in my eyes too.

Edit: I think the only thing saving Snivy from C is availability. The general consensus seems to be B though if it drops to C it wouldn't be out of place imo. It's not bad but its setup is too variable, and 75 offenses won't really be killing anything neutrally pre-boosts. One unlucky crit (6.25% chance) and it's likely all over. You can't even boost with Growth 9/10 times because the major battles are unkind to it unless you really go out of your way.

Aside from the brief shining moment at Clay, it only starts picking up around Skyla, but the major battles still dump on it. Even in the mostly neutral E4, there are several things that can stop a sweep unless you heal excessively. Grass/Normal coverage is minimal for mook covering, and it shouldn't be ranked for its ability to use Reflect and Light Screen, because that only really enables other members of the team to set up more capably instead of truly buffing itself, and Snivy is already overclocked on setup turns with Leech Seed and Coil anyway.

I'm not saying people who say Snivy is usable are wrong, but it has problems the whole game even when it gets its most valuable assets.

Also, regardless of the whole availability thing, I think Sawk and Throh should be merged for consistency. Accounting for rarity, I don't think either will see S for the most part, as the influx of Bugs until the desert dampers your Fighting spam. Throh Revenge is kinda hilarious though - it was roughly 2HKOing Sewaddle even resisted.

Discussion Slate: Snivy, Golett, Sawk, Throh, Tirtouga

 

[Dargad]

Not sure if Snivy is still up for discussion, but I'll add my experience.

During my last White playthrough, I did not enjoy playing with little Stephen. My issue with Snivy was that it often felt very passive. Its attacks were rather weak, and a lot of its damage was coming from Leech Seed. That meant that training, clearing route trainers and beating random wild Pokemon was a chore, and required a lot more time than most things I could have been using instead.

The few times it did shine was against trainers who were weak to grass (I did not find them to be that common), or the ones with a team big enough to allow you to set up enough Coils to do enough damage to kill/sweep (I did not find this very efficient, time and PP-wise). So, granted, it can decimate important battles, but it takes a long time to properly set up.

Personally, I think that long setups shouldn't be qualified as a good strategy. But maybe that's just me.

---

On a different note, I doubt that's what Merritt was saying about availability... I took it as: if you're using a Pokemon, don't consider "what could have been instead."

Should the two versions of Sawk/Throh really be combined? Availability does have an incidence on efficiency. Something you have to hunt for a while to catch makes you lose a lot of time, compared to something more widely available. For example, that's one of the reasons Cryogonal is so low in this tier list. Its stats and moves are decent enough, but a 1% spawn rate (5% in Winter) with a catch rate of 25? Nopetty nope.

IMHO, 10% in any patch of grass in that area vs 5% in rustling grass patches only, is a pretty big difference.