Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

[Detective Barricade]

Did Golett handle the subsequent Plasma Grunts fine?

To some extent. It completely walls their Watchog, and Magnitude can wreck Trubbish, but the rest carry Dark moves it doesn't enjoy taking. (and Sandile/Krokorok Intimidate hampers things)

I admit, I got it caught up to my party via the Nimbasa stadium rematches, and didn't use it through the Relic Castle part as I'd already evolved it into Golurk then and a ~10 level difference would DEFINITELY color the experience. It'd probably do about as well, but again I'm probably not the best to ask given I did get it caught up first.

 

[Stellar]

I can definitely test out Panpour. Turdterra (great name...) said he'd test out the others. Anything else?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I can definitely test out Panpour. Turdterra (great name...) said he'd test out the others. Anything else?

Axew, Gothita, Klink, Maractus, and Patrat

 

[Magnus0]

I can definitely test out Panpour. Turdterra (great name...) said he'd test out the others. Anything else?

You might as well keep the Snivy if you are going with Panpour because opinons on Snivy are quite divided. Some interesting matchups to test are Skyla and Marshall. See if you can set up coil against Swoobat and Throh for a sweep

Do note that if you test something, it has to remain in your party the whole game.

That means none of this dropping/trading and judging.

Yeah sorry, I was a bit hard on Emolga earlier by judging it despite dropping it from my team. I just really think it is bad, but I could have at least tried to make it work in the E4...

I´m currently doing a run with Oshawott, Munna, Deerling and Karrablast and I´ll catch a Litwick soon. Dewott is doing fine. It´s kinda boring but it works. Matchup against Elesas was really bad though, like worse than I expected. I evolved Munna as soon as possible and Musharna is doing great. It is extremely bulky, even taking super effective crunches with ease and healing it off with moonlight. It beat up Burghs Leavanny and soloed Elesa with just yawn, moonlight and psybeam. No item support was needed on it so far. I´ll have to see how psybeam holds up as STAB in the lategame to see if evolving right away is better than waiting for psychic. Though, even if psybeam doesn´t hold up well I think it´s still optimal to evolve right away because carrying Munna to level 37 would be awful.

I just caught Deerling and Karrablast, so they didn´t do any fighting yet. I do want to point out that Deerling comes with a great movepool right out of the box, with take down and jump kick being very powerful attacks and faint attack being perfect coverage for dark types. Leech seed is always useful for hard fights, even if Deerling itself isn´t very useful in the matchup otherwise.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Axew, Gothita, Klink, Maractus, and Patrat

nobody should test Patrat like ever

i respect my fellow tiering members' sanity

Anyway, I tested Gothita a while back. It is okay but just there. C tier really, nothing really sets it apart and its ability is pretty useless unlike Magic Guard on Solosis/Sigilyph, or Munna or Elgyem's (don't reccomend the latter) Syncronize. At least you can give it Grass Knot and Screens off the bat, and it has decent-ish Speed to use them. Its special bulk doesn't really come in handy most of the time anyway.

 

[Stellar]

Update One
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​

Gym 1: Didn't even attempt to have my level 11 Panpour take on Lillipup, but it easily handled Pansear. Incinerate is just so weak that it isn't going to be doing much even if boosted by multiple Work Ups. Snivy got Growth right before the battle and was able to Growth and take out Lillipup pretty easily with Vine Whip.

Snivy has essentially just been filling bad matchups between gyms. It evolved into Servine before Lenora, but is still weak as hell.

----

Gym 2: I picked up Throh before Lenora and used it throughout the gym. Its bulk allowed it to survive some first turn attacks and set up Work Up to gather the experience it needed from the gym trainers. I splurged on a couple X Defends before the fight, which allowed Throh to set up a couple Work Ups against Lenora's Herdier. It OKHOed Herdier at +1 and 2HKOed Watchog with Rock Smash.

I picked up Mystic Water for Panpour by answering "Oshawott" in one of the houses before leaving for Pinwheel Forest. I cleared out the remaining Plasma grunts and other trainers and ended up with Lv21 Panpour. One fight in the Battle Company upon reaching Castlelia allowed it to learn Scald. Using the Water Stone from the kind scientist nearby, I was able to evolve into Simipour almost immediately upon reaching Castelia.

I also picked up Miracle Seed for Servine on the way out of Pinwheel.

----

Gym 3: My team before this gym was Servine (22), Throh (22), and Simipour (23). I decided, since none of these Pokémon really curbstomp the gym, I would test each of them out to see how they fare. Simipour is easily able to set up Work Up against Whirlipede and dispatch of it, but can't really do much against Leavanny unless you get lucky with Bite flinch and are at +3 or +4. Throh can actually tank and set up Work Up against Leavanny and then hit it decently hard with boosted Revenge (120 BP), but can't really touch Whirlipede outside of Retaliate. Servine, as expected, was absolutely useless.

 

[Turdterra]

Magnus0 You can't set up on Throh with Coil. Storm Throw ALWAYS Crits, meaning the defense buff doesn't do jack. I found in my recently finished run that Serperior was stupidly reliant on items and/or Leech Seed. In fact, most of its kills came AFTER it was killed already via Leech Seed damage (Matching level too) Serperior isn't great at all. The fact that you need to Coil several times to do ANY KOs is not good for it in B Tier. Further testing may be needed to find Snivy a home it can fit in. As it stands from my experience is this: C Tier (leaning more towards)/B Tier (Maybe if other testers find a reason for it to be in B).

Name: Regality
Nature: Docile
Gender: Male
Level: 58
Item: Miracle Seed
Moveset: Leech Seed, Giga Drain, Leaf Blade, Coil

E4 Matchups (This was an extremely old file, so I do not remember my Gym Matchups. I will do another retest in the future)

Grimsley: Wasn't used. Used Conkeldurr for the Sweep

Marshal: Was used against Throh. Attempted to set up by using Leech Seed first. He used Bulldoze. Started using Coil. He used Bulldoze again. Serperior at this point is: +1 Attack, Defense, accuracy and -2 Speed. I go for another Coil. He starts using Storm Throw. I'm dropped to half health and the Leech Seed cannot keep up with recovery. I use a Full Restore. (Item Reliance: 1). He uses another Storm Throw dropping me to yellow, Seed gets me back up to green (barely). I use Coil again. At this point: +3 Attack, Defense, accuracy and -2 Speed. Storm Throw again. I am now in red. Seed unfortunately brings me back up to low yellow. Use Full Restore (Item Reliance: 2). I start my attack. Use Leaf Blade, drop him to low yellow. (I will add here that the leech seeds only took off about a fourth). Throh uses Throw (yay redundancy). I'm back to half health. Seed brings me back to low green and drops Throh to red. I use Leaf Blade for the Full Restore (which of course happens). No Crit. Seed happens again. No major health changes. I finally beat it with Leaf Blade (of course I get the pointless crit too). Conkeldurr comes out. I use Full Restore in an attempt to sweep (Item Reliance: 3). He crits me with Stone Edge dropping me to Overgrow range. I use Leech hoping that Stones will miss. They do not.

Outcome: Unable to Sweep. Item usage at 3. Coil defense buff completely useless. Sent in clean up grew for both bodies.

Shauntel: Wasn't used. Sent out Krook for Moxie sweep. Worked like a charm.

Caitlin: Was used to set up on Reuniculus. Due to Magic Guard. Seeds are pointless, start going for Coils as I have faith in my Special Defense. Only got as far as +1. Niculus got lucky with special defense drop off Psychic. Proceed to end Serperior after I hit with a Leaf Blade (did not crit. Gotta love high crit rate moves and their amazing ability to NOT CRIT). Sent in Krook for Moxie Sweep....again.

Alder: No team was used. I did not do the E4 Rematches.

 

[Stellar]

Update Two
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​

Servine and Simipour proved adept at clearing out the desert routes. Eviolite Servine was able to set up against Herdier and take out the rest of Bianca's Pokémon with Leaf Tornado. It learned Mega Drain soon afterward, which gave it precious healing with the constant sandstorm. Simipour actually OHKOed all of Cheren's Pokémon due to a Bite crit against Pansage. Definitely a powerhouse at this point in the game.

While in Desert Resort, I picked up a Dwebble. It's starting moveset is pretty awesome (Smack Down / Faint Attack / Rock Polish) and you will likely have picked up the Dig TM on the way here. In the same area, you get Rock Tomb, which is a welcome upgrade (if not BP-wise, effect-wise) to Smack Down. Bug Bite also comes one level after capture. Desert Resort is actually the perfect training ground for Dwebble too. It handles every single trainer in the area by itself except for the Sigilyph, depending on the AI trainer's choice of moves. It was easily able to catch up to my team's current average level of 26 before returning to Nimbasa.

Before heading elsewhere, I also purchased the Return TM to give Servine a decent second attack.

Gym 4: Dwebble and Throh both proved equally great at handling the trainers in the gym. Throh was awesome due to its having Guts, especially with all the Thunder Waves and Sparks being thrown around. Here's a look at my current team prior to fighting Elesa.

• Simipour (27): Scald / Bite / Dig / Work Up @ Mystic Water
  • Simipour survives whatever Emolga throws at it and can set up Work Up and proceed to OHKO both Emolga. Sadly, you are outsped by Zebstrika and OHKOed by Spark.
• Throh (27): Revenge / Dig / Storm Throw / Work Up @ Quick Claw
  • Throh actually sets up Work Up and tanks three Aerial Aces from Emolga. Rock Tomb OHKOs both Emolga at +1. You will have to use a Hyper Potion when Elesa sends in Zebstrika, but Zebstrika gets OHKOed by Dig. Throh was definitely the most effective from my team.
• Dwebble (27): Rock Tomb / Bug Bite / Dig / Rock Polish @ Soft Sand
  • Dwebble was pretty useless in this fight, because it takes so much damage from Volt Switch...
• Servine (27): Leaf Tornado / Return / Leech Seed / Growth @ Eviolite
  • You can KO one Emolga with a combination of Leech Seed + Growth + Return and a bit of luck with rolls, but overall this matchup is pretty terrible. You have better luck just relying on other Pokémon for the Emolga and then using Servine for Zebstrika.

----

It was really around this time that I started noticing Servine's PP issues. With the huge number of trainers between Elesa and Clay, Leaf Tornado's 10 PP just wasn't cutting it. Everything else on the team is definitely holding it's own though. I mistakenly went to Chargestone Cave and cleared the trainers out along the way, so I got an extra level or two before Clay. Dwebble picked up Rock Slide, which is miles better than everything else it has so far.

----

Gym 5: Servine, Throh, and Simipour were all excellent at dispatching the gym trainers. This was my team prior to facing off against Clay:

• Simipour (30 ⟶ 31): Scald / Bite / Grass Knot / Work Up @ Expert Belt
  • Scald OHKOs Krookodile and Excadrill and Grass Knot OHKOs Palpitoad with Expert Belt. (Otherwise, it lives, barely.)
• Throh (31): Revenge / Dig / Storm Throw / Work Up @ Rocky Helmet
  • First go-around, Krookodile Swaggered Throh first turn as I used Work Up, which resulted in a +3 Throh that OHKOed everything Clay had without taking any damage. I reset until Swagger missed and still only took one hit for about 25% before wiping everything out.
• Dwebble (31): Rock Slide / Bug Bite / Dig / Rock Polish @ Soft Sand
  • I thought this was a lost cause... until it wasn't. If you are lucky, you can Rock Polish and take Krokorok's Swagger for +2 Attack and +2 Speed. You OHKO Krokorok with Bug Bite, you 2HKO Palpitoad with Bug Bite and survive Muddy Water with Sturdy, and with Soft Sand, you OHKO Excadrill with Dig. Of course, this all relies on not hitting yourself in confusion and/or breaking out of confusion early.
• Servine (31 ⟶ 32): Leaf Tornado (Leaf Blade) / Return / Leech Seed / Growth @ Eviolite
  • With the combination of Eviolite, Growth, and Leech Seed, Servine was able to barely solo all three Pokémon without any additional healing. It learned Leaf Blade halfway through the fight, which was useful with Krokorok's Swagger boosting Attack.

 

[Turdterra]

Stellar Why'd you take ma boi Dweeble?

 

[Stellar]

He's cute.

 

[Turdterra]

Guess we are both testing it then.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Guess we are both testing it then.

The more tests the better. Easier to confirm or challenge the Pokemon's performance in-game that way, and hopefully ensure an "in-game tier list 3.0" isn't needed.

 

[Turdterra]

Beginning my tests of Pansear, Maractus (Changing Deerling for this), Dweeble, and Tirtouga. Will post an update at every two gyms.

 

[Stellar]

Update Three
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​

I picked up a Klink upon entering Chargestone Cave. It comes with Gear Grind and can be taught Return and Volt Switch immediately for a bit more utility. Klink actually gets decent usage against all the Plasma grunts in the cave. You just have to be wary of Sandile. This section is a bit Potion-heavy due to being underleveled and relying on resistances to take hits though.

Klink continued to catch up as the rest of my party slowly leveled as we headed to Celestial Tower. On the way, we picked up the X-Scissor TM, and Dwebble got another incremental boost. Immediately upon teaching it X-Scissor, it gained another level and evolved... for a major boost.

----

Gym 6: The trainer Pokémon weren't much of an issue. I used a Rare Candy picked up recently to bump Servine up to 36 and evolve/gain Coil.

• Simipour (35): Scald / Bite / Grass Knot / Work Up @ Mystic Water
  • Simipour can Work Up x2 against Swoobat and then OHKO Swoobat with Bite, 2HKO Swanna with Bite, and OHKO Unfezant with Scald.
• Throh (35): Revenge / Rock Tomb / Storm Throw / Bulk Up @ Rocky Helmet
  • Throh can Bulk Up against Swoobat and then KO Swoobat and Unfezant depending on the AI. It loses to Swanna though.
• Crustle (35): Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Dig / Rock Polish @ Expert Belt
  • Crustle can Rock Polish the first turn and OHKO all three of Skyla's Pokémon. Swoobat did still outspeed after Rock Polish though. Upon further inspection, I could have gotten Shell Smash via Heart Scale before this fight. It would not have made a difference here though.
• Serperior (36): Leaf Blade / Return / Leech Seed / Coil @ Shell Bell / Oran Berry / Miracle Seed
  • Serperior can sweep without Potion spam, but it requires a specific item or specific AI moves (or being overleveled...). Swoobat either has to use Amnesia twice while you set up to at least +5 with Coil, or you have to use Oran Berry and hope it uses Amnesia on the first turn. Miracle Seed is okay for the Amnesia x2 route, because you end up in Overgrow range. Regardless, it is possible to sweep, especially with Potions.
• Klink (36): Gear Grind / Charge Beam / Autotomize / Volt Switch @ Eviolite
  • You can easily set up Autotomize x2 and Charge Beam +6 against Amnesia Swoobat, KO it with Gear Grind, and then sweep the other two with Charge Beam (finishing off Unfezant with Volt Switch to prevent a miss). Eviolite means Swoobat isn't really doing anything at all to you. Super reliable answer to Skyla.

----

Upon leaving the gym, I taught Simipour Acrobatics so it would have something better to hit Grass-types with. Simipour sweeps all of the pre-Twist Mountain Cheren fight at +1. Klink evolved into Klang part way through Twist Mountain as well. Eviolite Klank is gonna be FUN. Nothing of note really happened on the Moor routes.

---

Gym 7: Everything on my team except Serperior was pretty adept at removing the gym trainers.

• Simipour (39): Surf / Acrobatics / Grass Knot / Work Up @ Mystic Water
  • Work Up as many times as you want because Vanillish can't do a single thing and then wreck with Surf.
• Throh (39): Revenge / Rock Tomb / Storm Throw / Bulk Up @ Rocky Helmet
  • Throh can spam either Revenge or Storm throw and OHKO all of Brycen's Pokémon.
• Crustle (39): Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Dig / Rock Polish @ Expert Belt
  • Rock Polish and the Rock Slide spam wins. You don't OHKO Vanillish after Acid Armor or Beartic, but neither can KO you back. Upon further inspection, I could have gotten Shell Smash via Heart Scale before this fight and made it a 100% easy sweep.
• Serperior (39): Leaf Blade / Return / Leech Seed / Coil @ Miracle Seed
  • You can use the Yache Berry Iris gives you in Castelia to easily set up +3 with Coil and Sweep. Acid Armor makes things a little tricky.
• Klang (39): Gear Grind / Charge Beam / Autotomize / Flash Cannon @ Eviolite
  • Autotomize + Gear Grind demolishes. You can also Charge Beam + Flash Cannon for style points.

---

Caught an Iron Fist Golett in Dragonspiral Tower. Was able to train it a bit against the Plasma Grunts, especially their Watchog, which cannot touch it. The AI is so bad that I was able to beat every trainer in the area with just Golett, leveling it up to 35. By the time I finished Desert Resort, Golett was essentially caught up at 38. I will admit I got a little too risky with Liepard/Krokorok and had to use some Revives, but more often than not they will use Hone Claws or some other attack.

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Gym 8: Eventually, I tackled the really tough trainers in Iris's gym. Everything sort of contributed, except Simipour who is just terribly outmatched in this gym due to type disadvantage. Golett evolved, so I taught it Fly and made a quick detour to pick up Shadow Punch and Shell Smash for two of my Pokémon and Blizzard for Simipour. I really should have done Shell Smash / Blizzard the first time through the areas. I did the route above Opelucid before doing the gym.

• Simipour (41): Surf / Blizzard / Grass Knot / Work Up @ NeverMeltIce
  • Work Up on the first turn and then you OHKO everything with Blizzard, assuming you hit.
• Throh (42): Revenge / Rock Tomb / Storm Throw / Bulk Up @ Rocky Helmet
  • You can always get to +3 with Bulk Up because Fraxure always DDs x3 before using Dragon Tail. On the fourth turn, Throh used Storm Throw and OHKOed Fraxure. It barely missed OHKOs against Druddigon/Haxorus, but both of them died to Rocky Helmet damage upon trying to Dragon Tail me, meaning I did not get phased out and could continue my sweep.
• Crustle (41): Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Dig / Shell Smash @ Shell Bell
  • Shell Smash x2 against Fraxure seems to be safe. It either DDs twice or DDs and uses Assurance, which does not OHKO. Fraxure and Druddigon then get OHKOed. Haxorus survived, but then could not finish me off after a DD and died in return.
• Serperior (42): Leaf Blade / Return / Leech Seed / Coil @ BrightPowder
  • Serperior can 100% sweep... but you need to deposit your entire team for it to work, otherwise you get Dragon Tailed while Coiling.
• Klang (42): Gear Grind / Charge Beam / Autotomize / Flash Cannon @ Eviolite
  • Klang can also 100% sweep... but you also need it to be the only Pokémon in your party. You set up +6 SpA with Charge Beam and then one shot everything with Flash Cannon. The most consistent full-party result I got was +3, KOing Fraxure, and severely denting Druddigon. Obviously, Klang can come back in again and attempt to finish off Druddigon, but it likely isn't getting a full sweep without flying solo.
• Golurk (43): Magnitude / Shadow Punch / DynamicPunch / Fly @ Soft Sand
  • If you can somehow hit DynamicPunch against all three opponents and have at least two of them hit themselves in confusion... you solo. Issue is, that took me like thirty attempts to pull off. It did consistently beat Fraxure/Druddigon though.

---

I will do the Elite 4 later!

 

[Turdterra]

Tales of the Horrible Pansear (but with Excellent Friends) Chapter 1
*********************************************​

First 2 Gyms are done. Hoo boy. Why is Pansear B-Tier exactly? Full disclaimer: I did SR the Pansear. This and Tirtouga will be the only ones to have this done to them. Tirtouga for the ability and Pansear got SRd due to the IVs (I checked as I was curious. You REALLY do not want 0 IVs in your Attack and Special Attack, which I got several times). The Pansear I have has perfect speed and special attack, however I have zilch in attack and special defense and almost none in HP. Fair trade off until I realized the movepool is more Physical.) Originally I placed the limit of 3 SR on the Pansear as not to abuse and have a horribly skewed testing. But the game kept giving me 0 IVs in things I needed and I reset. I didn't want perfect mind you, I just wanted it to be usable in the early parts.

Gym 1: I did pretty much the same as Stellar. I had Oshawott handle Pups. Now I would like to say Pansear cleaned up. But that would be me being nice to it. I have no intention of showing bias in any regard and all mons will be treated neutrally. I feel like this is the best way to test a Pokemon and land them in the tiers they should be in. HOWEVER, Pansear is a dumpster fire and will be excluded from this. You'd think STAB and Type Matchup could take care of Pansage in two hits at best. It became a 4HKO.

• Oshawott (12 ->13): Tackle, Tail Whip, Water Gun, Water Sport
  • Handled Lillipup with STAB Water Gun. Not much to say other than wet dog smell is nasty smell.
• Pansear (13->14): Scratch, Lick, Leer, Incinerate (UGH SO BAAAAAD)
  • "Handled" Pansage. Incinerate 4HKOd Pansage and even knowing how bad Pansear is due to this move, I was still astounded by the sheer killing potential of this move. BEGONE BERRIES! NONE OF YOUR ILK SHALL DARE HEAL YOUR HOLDER! *ahem*

Gym 2: I'll be honest. I lost twice. My levels were flush going in. So i went a trained to get Flame Burst. A VERY welcome STAB. After a Work Up, I 2HKOed the Watchog. I had Dewott handle Herdier to take the Take Downs. I DID use X Defends for this fight so we do have Item Reliance but then again, who doesn't against Lenora.

• Dewott (18 ->19): Rock Smash, Cut, Water Gun, Razor Shell
  • Took the Take Downs from Herdier at -1 Defense. I wasted about 2 X Defends while she kept Leering and I just went for the Razor Shells. (I got sick of it wasting my money) Got my Defense Drop and managed to 2HKO once dropped into red for Torrent buff. Fell to Watchog as job was done and wanted to see if I could outspeed in some way.
• Pansear (22): Bite, Work Up, Yawn, Flame Burst @ Charcoal (HOLY UPGRADES BATMAN (but not really)).
  • Pansear got a massive upgrade and has become a bit better, but nothing has really changed. It still needs a Work Up to effectively dent ANYTHING. Without the Work Up, Watchog would have been a 3/4HKO and it was already smacking me with its ugly BST and face. I had used 2 X Defends to take a Retaliate but could have been fine at 1. Wish I could say Pansear is gonna get better, but I know it;s not.

As it currently stands. I am not at all impressed with Pansear and first impressions I do take seriously. Time will tell if it should remain in B-Tier or fall into C-Tier. D-Tier is too low for it as it DOES have decent stats as Simisear. I'll have more updates tomorrow evening.

 

[Stellar]

Update Four
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​

I tested a few things out against Cheren in this Route 10 fight. If Crustle doesn't get taunted, it can Shell Smash x2 and sweep. Simipour can use Work Up and then OHKO Cheren's entire team with either Surf or Blizzard. The other Pokémon performed rather poorly here. Golurk gets stopped by Simisage, Klang gets stopped by Emboar, Serperior gets stopped by multiple things, and Throh can't set up against Air Slash Unfezant.

Victory Road was rather tame. Each Pokémon pulled their share of the weight. Coming into the Pokémon League... I feel severely underleveled.

• Crustle (45): Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Dig (Shadow Claw) / Shell Smash @ Expert Belt (Spell Tag)
• Simipour (45): Surf / Blizzard / Grass Knot / Work Up @ Mystic Water (Expert Belt)
• Serperior (44): Leaf Blade / Return / Leech Seed / Coil @ Shell Bell
• Golurk (44): Magnitude / Shadow Punch / DynamicPunch / Fly @ Soft Sand
• Klang (43): Gear Grind / Charge Beam / Autotomize / Flash Cannon @ Eviolite
• Throh (42): Revenge / Storm Throw / Dig / Bulk Up @ Rocky Helmet

---

CAITLIN
I tried using Klang here, but it gets OHKOed by Focus Blast even with Eviolite. Crustle is able to Shell Smash and hang on using Sturdy when Reuniclus uses Psychic. Afterward, it outsped everything and OHKOed with Expert Belt boosted attacks. Golurk can KO Reuniclus, Musharna, and Gothitelle in a 1-on-1 scenario, but can't exactly sweep. None of my other Pokémon stood a chance.

GRIMSLEY
First try was Throh. You can set up +6 Bulk Ups against his lead Scrafty, who attempts to piss you off with Sand Attack. If you manage to hit your other attacks and avoid Liepard's Attract shenanigans, this is an easy sweep. Crustle can actually Shell Smash 2/3 times against Scrafty if it tries to get cute with Sand Attack and sweep the rest of Grimsley's team.

SHAUNTAL
I attempted to teach Crustle Shadow Claw over Dig... which didn't really work. Cofagrigus and Jellicent tank even +2 Spell Tag Shadow Claw. Best bet for me in this fight was to weaken Cofagrigus with either Crustle or Golurk, sacrifice them, and then set up with Work Up Simipour @ Expert Belt. With Grass Knot and Surf, Simipour can handle Jellicent, Golurk, and Chandelure. Serperior is useless and so is Throh due to Mummy.

MARSHAL
Throh tends to use Bulldoze the first two turns, which allows you to set up Leech Seed and Coil with Serperior for free. Due to Throh's high base HP, you recover a ton of HP per turn, so you can easily set up to +6 with Coil. I opted for Shell Bell in this fight because you're going to be taking small amounts of damage from everything after being slowed down. Easy sweep with Serperior though. Throh also NEVER uses Storm Throw against Serperior until it runs out of Stone Edge PP because the game sees it as weaker than Stone Edge. If you remove or weaken Throh (Payback), Fly Shell Bell Golurk can sweep with an X Attack. The only thing that Golurk doesn't resist is Grass Knot, and the AI does not recognize the effectiveness of variable BP moves. Everything else on the team is dead weight in this matchup.

N
Reshiram is hellish. Crustle barely survives Fusion Flare, but doesn't even hit enough Speed after Shell Smash to be able to attack. My best bet here was to tank Fusion Flare with Crustle / Throh / Golurk and eventually KO Reshiram. Afterward, I was able to use Klang to wall N's Klang and get my team back up to speed with some Revives and Potions. After Klang goes down, N sends out Vanilluxe. Eviolite Klang walls this completely, and as long as you have enough healing at the ready, you can set up to +5/+6 with Charge Beam and +4 with Autotomize and OHKO the remainder of N's team. Nothing else was particularly noteworthy here.

GHETSIS
Simipour was in the lead for whatever reason. I was able to Work Up and 2HKO Cofagrigus and do 50% to Bouffalant before succumbing to attacks and Toxic damage. The combination of Head Charge damage and Rocky Helmet allowed me to set Throh up to +3 while Bouffalant killed itself to recoil. That didn't last very long, however, as Hydreigon crit OHKOed me with Dragon Pulse. Klang sacrificed itself to revive Throh while Crustle made use of Sturdy to get off one last hit. Throh finished off Hydreigon with Storm Throw. Golurk weakened Eelektross while Serperior knocked it and the subsequent Seismitoad out at +1. After seeding and dying to a crit, Serperior paved the way for a final Storm Throw from Throh against Ghetsis's Bisharp, ending the match.

---

THE END
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Serperior (46) = C

Early availability, middling-to-weak strength, but has some decent matchups and set-up opportunities​

​

Simipour (47) = A

Early availability, strong middle-game with early evolution and Scald, decent late-game with coverage, curbstomps most important fights​

​

Throh (47) = A

Early availability, consistent set-up opportunities due to bulk, useful ability, strong sweeping capabilities and survivability​

​

Crustle (47) = B

Decent availability, good coverage for in-game, decently early access to Shell Smash, good set-up opportunities (Sturdy)​

​

Klang (44) = C

Decent availability, easy to set-up due to typing and bulk (Eviolite), unlikely to reach final evolution, let-alone Shift Gear​

​

Golurk (46) = D

Late availability, weak/inconsistent STABs, common weaknesses, but useful typing in some situations​

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

I currently have Sawk and Gigalith as guaranteed mons for final battle. I am planning on having Chandelure and Gothotielle as well. Rest of spots are flexible, so I can test anything that you might want me to. I can test Cinccino's performance.

(I'm at Nimbasa atm)

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I currently have Sawk and Gigalith as guaranteed mons for final battle. I am planning on having Chandelure and Gothotielle as well. Rest of spots are flexible, so I can test anything that you might want me to. I can test Cinccino's performance.

(I'm at Nimbasa atm)

Sure, test Cincinno, though I have a feeling it'll be C based on Magnus0s assesment. No matter how you play it it will be luck-dependent, but on the other hand its coverage as a Normal is only matched by Sawsbuck. Don't forget you can evolve pre-Clay via the Shiny Stone in the house on Route 6. Technican is vital to make it viable.

Also want to add this is some fantastic detailed discussion! I agree with all of Stellar's points, though I might have to retest Throh as A suprised me a little. While useful, it also depends on the version you play (as it is rarer in Black), and I think Sawk is easier to use in having the nice Sturdy and workable Speed. I've used both IIRC, but Sawk more extensively, and the latter rips through almost anything.

I would ask someone test Amoonguss, but I have a feeling that even from theorymonning it will stay D. Late level 39 evo, you don't get Spore until level 50 as Foongus or 62 as Amoonguss (whyyyy?), typical Grass gym matchups, and doesn't really have much coverage. I've used it a LONG time ago in a recorded playthrough but my memory is hazy. Heck, the best shot might be grabbing a level 40 Amoonguss on Route 10. On the other hand, everyone knows how good Eviolite Foongus is in Little Cup, so it might carve out a niche or something.

Moving Snivy down to C for now, Klink stays in C (I COULD see a user getting Shift Gear with Rare Candies though, which you could easily sweep Ghetsis with), Dweeble up to B, and Golurk will stay D (thought it wasn't E rank material, glad to know another user agrees, though Punchshroom's assesment wasn't really wrong either). Moved Throh (White) to A and Throh (Black) to B.

As for the inconsistent STABS on Golurk, Stellar, did you know Golett gets EQ if you hold off on evolving until 45? Golurk gets EQ at 50.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah Foonguss is meh; in fact I'd rate it as arguably the worst Grass-type in the game. It's godawful slow, evolves late, and doesn't even have the movepool to supplement its supposed bulky utility role, instead being relegated as a weak "tank" whose KOing efficiency is only really made apparent against bosses by using Toxic. STAB Giga Drain and later Sludge Bomb (by Route 8) aren't bad attacking options per se, but Amoonguss is definitely not built for route sweeping.

In terms of important matchups, Foonguss already lags behind as a Grass-type against Clay's Gym since it doesn't resist Ground and it will invariably be taking damage that it is unlikely to completely heal off due to how slow and weak it is, and unless you went out of your way to catch the lowest leveled Foonguss (which means it has Bide, but this also means it warrants excessive grinding), Foonguss has no consistent way of getting the upper hand on Excadrill, unlike any of the other Grass-types you can access. Probably Amoonguss's only real shining moment is vs Marshal, where it can kinda take hits from most of his team (though probably not all of them without the help of an X Defend or something). Otherwise, this is probably the only fight where Amoonguss can actually perform as a tank, though expect to still take like 45-55% from his stronger Fighting-types.

All in all, Amoonguss is pretty subpar, and as both a tank and a Grass-type, it lacks any neat tricks like boosting moves or helpful coverage to help augment itself (even Whimsicott has Light Screen and Shadow Ball to contribute vs Shauntal & Caitlin lol). Heck, I'd say Foonguss is probably on par with a couple of E Rank mons.

 

[Stellar]

Sure, test Cincinno, though I have a feeling it'll be C based on Magnus0s assesment. No matter how you play it it will be luck-dependent, but on the other hand its coverage as a Normal is only matched by Sawsbuck. Don't forget you can evolve pre-Clay via the Shiny Stone in the house on Route 6. Technican is vital to make it viable.

Also want to add this is some fantastic detailed discussion! I agree with all of Stellar's points, though I might have to retest Throh as A suprised me a little. While useful, it also depends on the version you play (as it is rarer in Black), and I think Sawk is easier to use in having the nice Sturdy and workable Speed. I've used both IIRC, but Sawk more extensively, and the latter rips through almost anything.

I would ask someone test Amoonguss, but I have a feeling that even from theorymonning it will stay D. Late level 39 evo, you don't get Spore until level 50 as Foongus or 62 as Amoonguss (whyyyy?), typical Grass gym matchups, and doesn't really have much coverage. I've used it a LONG time ago in a recorded playthrough but my memory is hazy. Heck, the best shot might be grabbing a level 40 Amoonguss on Route 10. On the other hand, everyone knows how good Eviolite Foongus is in Little Cup, so it might carve out a niche or something.

Moving Snivy down to C for now, Klink stays in C (I COULD see a user getting Shift Gear with Rare Candies though, which you could easily sweep Ghetsis with), Dweeble up to B, and Golurk will stay D (thought it wasn't E rank material, glad to know another user agrees, though Punchshroom's assesment wasn't really wrong either). Moved Throh (White) to A and Throh (Black) to B.

As for the inconsistent STABS on Golurk, Stellar, did you know Golett gets EQ if you hold off on evolving until 45? Golurk gets EQ at 50.

Then Golurk would have a consistent STAB attack for one level and would also only be a Golurk for one level. It ended at 46. It realistically would have improved nothing and arguably made it worse, as you'd be stuck with Golett for longer.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Yeah Foonguss is meh; in fact I'd rate it as arguably the worst Grass-type in the game. It's godawful slow, evolves late, and doesn't even have the movepool to supplement its supposed bulky utility role, instead being relegated as a weak "tank" whose KOing efficiency is only really made apparent against bosses by using Toxic. STAB Giga Drain and later Sludge Bomb (by Route 8) aren't bad attacking options per se, but Amoonguss is definitely not built for route sweeping.

In terms of important matchups, Foonguss already lags behind as a Grass-type against Clay's Gym since it doesn't resist Ground and it will invariably be taking damage that it is unlikely to completely heal off due to how slow and weak it is, and unless you went out of your way to catch the lowest leveled Foonguss (which means it has Bide, but this also means it warrants excessive grinding), Foonguss has no consistent way of getting the upper hand on Excadrill, unlike any of the other Grass-types you can access. Probably Amoonguss's only real shining moment is vs Marshal, where it can kinda take hits from most of his team (though probably not all of them without the help of an X Defend or something). Otherwise, this is probably the only fight where Amoonguss can actually perform as a tank, though expect to still take like 45-55% from his stronger Fighting-types.

All in all, Amoonguss is pretty subpar, and as both a tank and a Grass-type, it lacks any neat tricks like boosting moves or helpful coverage to help augment itself (even Whimsicott has Light Screen and Shadow Ball to contribute vs Shauntal & Caitlin lol). Heck, I'd say Foonguss is probably on par with a couple of E Rank mons.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this assessment at all. You could argue for it to be E, as while it isn't garbage, it's the worst (and latest sans Virizion and tie with Deerling) Grass. The only tiny niche it has is using Protect (TM from Juniper after seeing 60 mons) and Toxic strats. Toxic at level 32 (notable as the TM requires a detour) is nice, at least, but since Venoshock TM is postgame, it isn't all that notable.

 

[Turdterra]

Stellar Why are your levels so low? You should be able to get Klinklang before the League. I will be retesting the Klink Line to see if I can reach Klinkland and Shift Gear. The ranking is fine, but I think a retest is order to make sure it's full potential is used.

 

[Stellar]

Stellar Why are your levels so low? You should be able to get Klinklang before the League. I will be retesting the Klink Line to see if I can reach Klinkland and Shift Gear. The ranking is fine, but I think a retest is order to make sure it's full potential is used.

I fought every trainer in the game except for the optional route to the left of Route 1 that requires Surf / immense backtracking and the sports arenas. I did not grind against wild Pokémon. My levels actually seem on par with other people who used 5-6 Pokémon in their playthrough.

 

[Turdterra]

Mine usually end up at 50s with 6. Maybe one on the cusp of 50. I dunno, seems like you may have missed some trainers here and there.

 

[Stellar]

sb879 watched the entire playthrough. I did not skip any trainers other than the ones mentioned in my previous post.

Look at other posts in the thread like this one for examples of comparable end-game levels.