Project oras ru research week #4 (researching hariyama, mega banette, and torterra , see post #49)

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i do what i want
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credit to brightobject for the dope banner, be sure to check out his his thread

introduction

the overlying goal of this project is to encourage users to escape their useful 'comfort zones' as builders by utilizing pokemon less often seen or utilized effectively, perhaps due to perceived competition in its role, lower-tier status, or something else entirely. in doing so, one might hope for users to escape their respective 'comfort zones' as builders, making use of pokemon of lesser use, as well as perhaps introducing a pokemon that deserves more usage than it receives.

while i don't have any intention of pandering to anyone here, b.c frankly nobody wants to deal with that, i would like to lay down a basic idea of what one should be honing in on for this project:
  • what significant niche(s) do the pokemon in question fill?
  • what kind of competition do these pokemon face in their particular role (if any), and if yes, then what traits allow them to distinguish themselves?
  • does the current metagame tend to favour these pokemon? if not, what ways can these pokemon adapt such that these issues can be mitigated?

generally speaking, each round will be posted around sunday evening and subsequently end in the following sunday, but to kick things off, i decided to add an extra day on. theorymonning is definitely welcome, but let's strive to keep things grounded, and whenever possible, supporting your ideas via calcs, replays, and so forth are very much appreciated. again, i don't want to patronize anybody here, and it'll be that much easier to avoid it when everybody's remaining cool n collected.

as with previous iterations of this project, a laddering challenge will be incorporated here, with the prize being sorted at this time (usually half-ops in #rarelyused is the safe bet here), and your name and findings being stored in the ever-so-prestigious hall of fame. simply post the alt and pokemon you willing be using, along with at least one post at the end of the week documenting your experiences with it / them (though, of course, we actively encourage you to post additional information), and based off the standings at the end of the week, you could win. also, for the badge fiends out there, the ru mod team does indeed take notice to the active posters in threads such as these, so participation in this can play a role in netting a pre-contributor, or eventually full community contributor badges.

happy posting


week #1: Lord Death Manpost
 
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week #1




trevenant ⎮ druddigon ⎮ rotom-n

while canned by many, the following pokemon exhibit several unique traits that we of the 'research week team' felt notable to the point of being well worth exploring right off the bat. discuss!
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
name: life orb skymin
mon: druddigon

when do we discuss
i want to tell everyone that hone claws druddigon is bad
 
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since i've been asked, i won't be saying at some point during the week "now discuss!", or something to that; perhaps a stretch, but i feel confident folks will have the common sense to not post about things if they don't actually have the experience necessary to do so properly. feel free to post thoughts at whatever point you feel inclined to share, ask how others have been utilizing their research 'mons, etc. it should be more than a point a -> point b ladder challenge, after all.
 

DKFirelord

Back this time I swear!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Alright then I've mostly find my my self always teaming Rotom-N with Durant or even Kabutops. I think it's mostly because Rotom-N can stall break thing like Alo or Quag for Durant with The Sub Wili Discharge set that has become popular. Kabutops is also an interesting mon for Rotom-N Prooviding RP support and Rotom can switch into Fighting it Griund types for Kabutops. The main thing I really find I dislike about Rotom-N is the lack of power I don't know it just seems really weak I'll try to post my team and some replays today with Rotom-N later today

EDiT:
Made two pretty food teams with Rotom-N the top mons I like using with Rotom is moslty Exploud,Durant, Rhyperior, and Virizion all of these either aprriates Rotom ability of walking steel types like Steelix or Flying Types and resist common weakened for Rotom-N EX: Dark Typs
Also as I edit this not got to 1520 with these teams so pretty happy with them
Rotom @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Surf
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

Meloetta @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Calm Mind

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Houndoom @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Waterfall
- Wish
- Protect
Rotom @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 88 HP / 40 Def / 132 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Substitute
- Discharge

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Iron Head
- Thunder Fang
- X-Scissor

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Waterfall
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Atk / 188 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Megahorn

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

Sigilyph @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Thunder Wave

Tries Colbur Defensive Rotom just to see how'll its do moslty wanted to be able to T-Wave Dooms that think can switch into Rotom lefties is better over all though.
 
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fran17

(1999)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I laddered a bit with Trevenant and I got over 1400 although luck wasn't in my favor :( The team I run was a semi trick room with hazards, with Trevenant acting as a spinblocker, a strong wallbreaker and TR setter. Natural Cure is a really cool trait which allowed me to use Trevenant as a status absorber and I could send him on Alomomola without the risk of getting a burned mon for all the match, which is nice :)
As a spinblocker, Trevenant is really nice, it puts a lot of pressure on spinners, and to defoggers to a lesser extent. I've found setting up the TR with Trev relatively easy, because it can get free turns on many pokémon in the tier. Also I've Sigilyph a very cool partner for him, although it doesn't really benefit of the trick room, with a colbur berry it can lure dark types which threatens Trev.
I'll leave the team I used here if someone wants to try it:
LEGNICORNO (Trevenant) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Horn Leech
- Shadow Claw
- Rock Slide

GEOFORZA (Camerupt) (M) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def / 1 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]

VELENPUNTURA (Qwilfish) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe
Impish Nature
- Waterfall
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

ETERELAMA (Sigilyph) (M) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Energy Ball
- Heat Wave

ONDABOATO (Exploud) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Sleep Talk

CALCINVOLO (Hitmonlee) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Mach Punch

I have a question to people who used CB Trev, do you think it is better of TR Trev or it has more flaws?
Also I tried Druddigon some time ago with not much profit, can one of the Druddigon user explain me how it worked for they =o ?
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I wanted to ladder up a bit before posting and I used Drudd as a stealth rock lead both Def and SpD. Drudd with rocky helmet sounds good on paper but it didn't really fit my playstyle, so I went with a SpD set and really enjoyed it as a nice phazer/ pivot glalie sucks It does have a niche as a phazer with popular mons such as doom/phox etc. and can cripple mons with glare. Most rockers tend to be bulkier overshadowing Drudd (Mlix + Mola) but Drudd supports the team more instead of set up rocks click eq / heavy slam / scald etc. It can status important mons and wear down teams by phazing.
Druddigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Glare
- Roar
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I've used several Druddigon sets in the past, but only really Rocky Helmet felt all that great me. Druddigon's 4 resistances *seem* to help it fit in a lot of cores I've tried, but I never really felt like it was all that reliable on balance and was absolutely terrible on stall. However, it offered a huge amount of support on offense over other offensive stealth rockers, so I've been using it off and on in teams for a while (cool check to Scarf Emboar, Jolteon, can help keep rocks up against spinners). Paralysis is huge to offensive teams, rocks are cool, druddigon does stuff as it dies, etc. It has some clear, obvious problems, but I fit it on Glalie teams all the time with minimal issues, because I hate Uxie, can't put Mesprit on every team, and never saw the use of Seismitoad.

This time, however, I opted to use an offensive set - I went with Hone Claws because it seemed cool and also because I really feel that dragon stab is kind of useless 99% of the time because every relevant dragon is faster. My moveset was Gunk Shot/Fire Punch/Sucker Punch/Hone Claws, and I went with like Mola creep + 32 speed or something. At first, it felt useless because people wouldn't use protect to scout on their molas at all. Regularly, people would take a gunk shot and use scald, or more bizarrely Toxic, even if the second gunk shot would KO, which led to me feeling like people have no idea how to use Mola as a whole (ie were willing to throw away their mola for essentially no benefit). As I moved up through the ladder, I got more and more chances to use hone claws, and a +1 Druddigon is surprisingly dangerous. Often, I'd get the +1, they'd switch to the steel and lose it to fire punch, and then go to their revenge killer and take a massive chunk from a +1 sucker punch and be open to being swept. At the same time, it was such an inconsistent set (borderline useless against most offense builds, lacking the coverage to do anything against most stall teams that carried Top, Golbat or Flygon) that I don't think I'd use it much in the future.

A nice thing was that even with the speed investment, it partnered well with Offensive Trick Room Cofagrigus against offense, which is the only reason I felt it regularly put in work. On a full TR team I'd rather use a more potent wallbreaker or something slow (preferably both), but in my team it really functioned well.
 
So, regarding Rotom... First I've decided to go for it in a sticky web team to try out a fast spinblocker. Sadly Mismagius happened to fit that role much better due to its superior special bulk, power, and speed plus some other things. Luckily, there was a balance team Expulso, PingPongAlong and I managed to make a while back (link is http://piratepad.net/VY4tH9Fyju) so I decided to start there. We had a consensus to go for a pretty standard sub rotom set consisting of Substitute / Will-o-Wisp / Hex / Discharge with Leftovers and 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 speed with a timid nature. This you can just accomplish so much tbh. Being able to check Steelix and Alomomola is amazing seeing as how they're quite prominent threats in the tier. That's not just to mention the fact that it gets 5 resistances and 3 immunities, giving it several opportunities to switch into stuff like some choice locked mons like flygon, durant, n tyrantrum, fighting types bar scrafty, and ground types, making it rather easy to put on a team if you need a check to any of those. Biggest issue with rotom as of now imo is the fact that is REALLY depends on its typing to wall stuff, so matchups are quite type-dependant. Also something that's iffy when it comes to it is its lack of power. Sure you'll dent stuff with a boosted Hex, but it really lacks any sort of power to punch holes, making it more of a status spreader. When it comes to specifics I'd say bulky special attackers like megarupt and exploud fare best against rotom due to the fact that they don't really mind the attack drop from WoW and usually have a real easy way to break through. Heck, I'd say most fast attackers that have a neutral move against rotom can take care of it. Mons that can recover stall rotom like aromatisse work well to deal with it too When it comes to partners, I'd mostly say anything that can beat said bulkier threats works nicely. Mostly been trying out Virizion, as it manages to handle electric and dark types that trouble rotom. Houndoom's been pretty cool too as it appreciates stuff like fighters and grounds getting checked. Since hex's a thing on rotom, tspikes support from the likes of drapion and qwilfish is pretty rad, so stuff that pressures hazard removers / poison-types is pretty much called for if you're tryna run that way.

tl;dr
  • Really faces competition from mismagius as a fast spinblocker due to higher special bulk, power, and other stuff like Nasty Plot and better overall coverage.
  • Rotom's saving grace happens to be its slew of resistances, making it rather easy to fit on teams if said resistances are warranted.
  • With just 88 HP EVs, rotom can easily handle both mola and megalix, pretty important walls
  • Also checks crud like fighting-types bar ss scrafty, ground types, and is a decent switch-in to choice locked attackers locked in the appropriate move.
  • Biggest flaws are typing and lack of power, usually having it struggle 'gainst other electric types, dark moves like knock off and pursuit, clerics that aren't weak to rotom's moves, bulky or faster attackers, etc
  • Partners come down to stuff that beats darks or anything that resists rotom's coverage in general and wallbreakers; pokemon that rely on ground and/or fighting types being checked work nicely too. Tspikes gets a mention as it gives a breathing space to fire off hexes to and fro


Here's a pretty standard team focusing on rotom to check fighters, steelix bc ru (a physical wall n stealth rocks + toxic to beat out bulky water switch ins in the case rotom's out), aromatisse providing wish for lix and cleric support, Virizion as a dark check, Samurott as a fire check, and flygon for hazard removal / cleaning. I've had moderate success with this team, managing to peak at mid 1400s. EVs in rotom allow it to live two scarf ant's iron heads / x-scissors and either burn or hex back.

Rotom @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Discharge

Hawtie (Aromatisse) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy

Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 76 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- U-turn
- Defog
 
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Ping_Pong_Along

Bitches love underscores
I didn't get to play with Rotom-N as much as I would have liked to, though I did find it performed well in nearly all of my matches. I tried it on a couple different teams, but I found it was a bit awkward to build around, at least for me. Being a more defensive player, I eventually decided to see how it did on semi-stall, so I paired it with Houndoom and Spikes support. The team had some definite weaknesses, but exceeded my expectations overall. I had it on a team with Roselia, but I can see it going quite well with Qwilfish as well.

+ I found I had plenty of opportunities to set up a Substitute, particularly when I led with Rotom.
+ Discharge behind a Substitute is really great for the paralysis chance, especially since it seemed like people mostly brought out fast special attackers to deal with Rotom.
+ Substitute really helped mitigate its Pursuit and Knock Off weakness.
+ 130 base power Hexes are insane. Much has been said about how it breaks Mola+Lix, but what I really appreciated was how it checked Amoonguss, which is a surprising pain for a lot of stall teams.

- The paralysis chance on Discharge wouldn't have been a big deal if Rotom were a bit faster. 91 base speed isn't bad, but it's still outsped by a good portion of the tier.
- I had difficulty finding a time to switch it in, particularly against Fighting types since Knock Off on the switch is a pretty easy KO.
- Double switching into a faster pursuit trapper like Sneasel is a fairly easy way to KO Rotom.
- Not having Pain Split made this guy fairly easy to wear down. Its frailty meant that I could almost never get it in to receive a wish.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on this as I play with it more and maybe try out some different sets.
 
sorry for being slow on updating this guys, a few things ended up coming up for me. perhaps i'll extend this week, we shall see some great posts and whatnot though, really happy to see that from everyone. that said, Lord Death Man had the best rating by the end of the week, so congrats to him!


week #2



the following have been ru for a while, but due in large to competition for roles or even minimization of the relevance of previously significant roles, these pokemon have great drops in usage in 'high levels of play'. what ways can these pokemon take advantage of their positive traits to be effective in this metagame? what would you consider to be their best sets, and why? etc etc​
 
sorry if it seems that way to you. for reference, i did verify the positions at ~11 pm sunday, rather than now. if you do have some proof that you usurped him in rankings before the stroke of midnight that evening, then feel free to bring it up and i will present your deserved lack of determined prize. i hope for this project to be as transparent and drama-free as possible, so if i have acted in a fashion that might suggest anything different, lmk and i will attempt to remedy the issue as directly as possible.
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
the alt ldm is using is still at 1400s since "sunday" life orb skymin no biggie tho

e: why I said 'no biggie' although Sunday the laddering was already over by then me and Dk were both going at it then ldm passed us like once I believe on saturday. I just want the winner to be resolved and if you want the evidence you imply I'll leave this to LDM to decide if he rightfully wants to be claimed winner. (I had fun laddering with suspect mon as DK did I believe lol, we went on tilt trying to top each other almost breaking top 10) cheers!
 
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i would rather we did not delve into this kind of passive-agressive one-liners; i am attempting to solve what might be a mistake that i made, not antagonize you.if you think that there is a mistake, then please, i would very much appreciate any kind of information you might have that may correct it. to my understanding, his alt was (at the time i checked) circling about 1490, with the runner-up, whose alt i was to understand was yours, was slightly lower. while it is true that yours is currently higher, you can see from the op that i had every intention of closing the week off on sunday. to go back on that would be unfair to the other participants that might have noted this and not played further games as a result, potentially creating a gap into points from their decay and your continued efforts to play on that alt. so i will repeat, do you have any kind of substantial proof that might suggest that you were in fact higher on the ladder at the time the week officially ended? if so, then i will happily correct what was a mistake on my end. but if not, i would rather hope that you could cease this behavior; it is a casual little "just-for-fun" laddering challenge that, as of yet, does not even have any real rewards beyond bragging rights, so i see no real need to take this as harshly as you are. i'm sorry if there has been any miscommunications here.
 
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