You missed the mighty cm psyshock BronzongBefore I see posts trying to scrounge up defensive counterplay with the likes of Calm Mind Cresselia, Unaware SDef Calm Mind Clefable, and Substitute + Protect Gliscor, let's remember that these are not standout Pokemon otherwise and forcing every team to rely on one of them is not a healthy mechanism for metagame development. This is the epitome of being unbalanced.
nah you forgot the goat cm bronzong can 1v1 it so obviously everybody’s just overreacting clearly smhFinch and CTC put it better than I ever will, but I’ll be voting BAN on Blood Moon. The counterplay just isn’t there and using unviable counters such as CM Cress, Corviknight, Blissey (have fun losing all momentum), AB Gholdengo (lol), or « getting the play right with Gliscor » is in no way healthy for the metagame. All Blood Moon does is promote cheese and brainless shenanigans. Also the it’s too early argument is stupid and uneducated, nothing will ever come out of nowhere and suddenly make it okay, this isn’t a « the metagame has not been explored enough » issue whatsoever.
Oh God what have you done?! BRB gonna fuck the tierJust got reqs by shamelessly and mindlessly using this set in terrain -
Ursa Warrior (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blood Moon
- Body Press
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
Close to 90% of my games, bear was a clear wincon from turn 1 with just a little bit of positioning and scouting for tricks/encores. It's ridiculously good against all forms of playstyles, be it HO/Balance or Stall. Sure, with time the meta will come up with more innovative checks and tools to deal with the bear to an extent, but the counterplay is just not good enough to even consider keeping this thing in the meta. Comparisions to Wake suspect are understandable, but unlike the Bear, Wake's checks/counters were still relevant and useful mons in the metagame in other matchups. When Spite+Sub Spdef Corviknights begin running around just to stand a chance at dealing with this mon, you know you are in outrageous territory. I will be voting Ban, and I strongly suspect this will be the most single sided test in Gen 9 till date.
On the tools there's this thing "..." and when you put your mouse above it, it says insert. Once clicked, it will give you options, click spoiler and will ask you for the name of the spoiler, and then you put the thing insideSorry dunno how to spoiler
Much better, no eyesore, 10/10 with the assistOn the tools there's this thing "..." and when you put your mouse above it, it says insert. Once clicked, it will give you options, click spoiler and will ask you for the name of the spoiler, and then you put the thing inside
Now that you know how to do this, give me likes because I need to farm
Yeah, no kidding. From my own experience, it being so criminally bulky was what sold me on it being potentially unhealthy, but it's been an echo chamber since before the suspect went live, I've seen like a grand total of 8 people who think BM isn't at least banworthy. That being said, if I manage to get the reqs:I will be voting Ban, and I strongly suspect this will be the most single sided test in Gen 9 till date.
he's rightMy point is that the initial reaction of Wake reminds me of the initial reaction to Boon. I understand the mon is insane, has almost no switch ins, and is most likely broken. Even if I think it's broken, which it most likely is, I'm saying we haven't had enough time. I used to think Specs Val was broken early meta, and then time passed. New mons dropped, new strategy, etc. I keep seeing Tera Psn mentioned, doesn't that just open it up to all our grounds? Tera Ground Moth can OHKO w TB. We finally have a vacuum wave user for Gambit that forces it to Tera or KO. There are interactions with Gold, Gliscor, weather, etc. that I would like to see played out. It would force fatter builds because offense has a hard time with it. The meta is overly geared towards offense. Maybe we need a mon that forces fat.
The point of a suspect isn't to discover if something is broken, it's to vote on it. We discover if it's broken by playing the game, and I'm saying that technically there is a field of counterplay that hasn't been explored. Let me Skill Swap it and wall with Balloon Dengo lol.
Although, like I said, GF loves busting mons and giving this thing Scrappy is def the nail in the coffin, I'm just confused why we are so ban happy when we literally haven't had enough time to explore all the counterplay.
For your 2nd point, there were many times we could have suspected Gambit, that's not even an argument. And yeah, I should have just said, "Voting NB on principle. This mons counterplay has not had proper time to be explored, regardless of how broken it seems right now." It will most likely get banned, but it will be off of initial reactions, and Tera, instead of giving us time to explore. There is counterplay, but when the ladder is filled with Veil and Webs HO, players are getting mad a mon isn't OHKO and their glass cannons can't switch in. Gambit is more unhealthy and broken than Blood Moon, same w the Ogers, but Gambit has been giving months of time and counterplay exists now. The ladder is also over prepped for Offense. We saw with the quick claw shit that the ladder does not take kindly to bulky offense. Was I sort of joking when I said Skill Swap the bear, yeah. But if you told me Dnite would have to run Encore some day I would have been perplexed lol.
Anyway, we could have easily waited for this suspect. We can agree to disagree but banning this thing won't save the meta. It just shows a lack of patience and trust in ourselves to overcome what could be a valuable S tier to our meta.
basedi like this guy
What splashable checks? Also Gambit is not something to cite in reference to adapting given that it's still viewed as majorly problematic and even people which voted no ban before have since come to regret it.I think we have just enough splashable checks and this is only within like a week of it being a problem, give it time and the meta will change. Similar to Gambit, Wake, and more.
This isn't really a compelling argument. They work, but the issue isn't not being splashable. They're just not really good in the overall metagame is the big issue. And yes, having to rely on overly specific counterplay that wouldn't see use without the Mon just to avoid losing to it, tends to be a sign of a problem. SimilarlyWhile CM Unaware Clefable and Substitute Gliscor aren't very splashable, they are proven reliable answers. These can fit on Stall/Semi-Stall which can't punish its switch ins as well. These will probably see more usage on the archetypes for a better answer to BMU and do just fine if you give the meta time. Having to run these for stall to even have a mu into it may seem unhealthy, however stall already gets fucked by a lot of breakers as it can not apply as much pressure, despise things like Ghold and Heatran a lot too. An archetype having to rely on certain pokemon to not have a Bad MU shouldn't be a reason it's banned On the opposite side of the spectrum.
Spdef Grass knot LandoT is as specific as it gets and... what is it checking beyond BM? This set as a whole is worse than spdef Gliscor anyways. Regarding positioning, it's really not hard for it given so many Pokemon are afraid of it and it gets to chase them out while it boosts. If it really was so difficult, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion let alone suspect as it'd be more manageable. But it isn't and once it boosts, it's very difficult to remove without encuring huge damage yourself.I really like the SpD Lando idea, as you hit it in and out of its Teras (Water and Poison). You surprisingly eat Blood Moon really well and can really chip it with Grass Knot/EQ.
Heatran is bad into BM. And BM is arguably pushing the meta more offensive to handle it so removing it would do wonders for the bulky teams of the tier.Heatran can often get away with running it and it's even more pleasing of a move for other pokemon to try out. Answering one of the biggest threats in OU. This is probably healthier for the tier as it is far too offensively dominated imo
It has a tiny bit of 4MSS sometimes but nowhere near enough to be a significant issue that holds it back. Especially because it really doesn't need most of those moves, Hyper Voice or Body Press. They're just tech people do for bypassing counterplay. Offensive CM sets drop Moonlight because they aren't aiming to stay all game and just blow huge holes in teams. Snow teams, or veil teams as they are actually, took a huge hit after Bax was banned and while still solid, aren't nearly as good as they used to be. While vs Rain teams, BM can still collect a couple kills as it doesn't need to boost and will just use its bulk to trade for kills instead. It is hardly dead weight.Also I'd like to say this has huge 4mss. While yes Hyper Voice, Body Press or Vacuum Wave can get past some of its checks, they remove something which makes Bloodmoon as scary as it is rn. If it's not using CM or Blood Moon, it's just a joke and not the same pokemon anymore. You really want Moonlight to have the longevity to muscle through all game, otherwise you're chipped down by hazards far too easily. I've seen a few drop Earth Power but it just makes you are really week into Steels. Body Press and Vacuum Wave being pathetic replacements, especially when you realise Super Effective Vacuum Wave is outputting less than 0.66% of neural Earth Power or Resisted Blood Moon. It is also probably worth mentioning how common Rain and Snow are rn, limiting its longelivity even with Moonlight.
BM has been around for a couple of weeks and given what we've seen people attempt to adapt to it with, using subpar sets on Pokemon, it's clear that it's a problem. Waiting more does nothing but let it keep bludgeoning the tier without letting it develop in a healthy way, and we also don't exactly have a ton of time between now and the next DLC. As for Moltres, it rose because it was discovered to have multiple excellent qualities that let it check a wide range of relevant metagame Pokemon. Sandy Shocks rose because it was found to be a good HO Pokemon, not because of sun (and has since declined in popularity). They were also seen occasionally prior to their increased popularity, and were just niche, not bad. We're not keeping a broken Pokemon around because some lower tier Mon may rise up to check it (lol won't happen).HOWEVER, as I've said, the meta is still very fresh. Give it time and strategies will develop, maybe some uu pokemon rising as answering BM was the push they needed. Similar to Moltress who rose after checking Gambit (I'm aware this isn't the only thing it does, but I do believe it's a big part on why it rose to OU) and Sandy Shocks who rose when Sun's viability increased, these are pokemon who were probably never thought of earlier. People will find answers as they are given time, and iot, It can always be retested or quickbanned, at least after the meta is familiar with it.
I assumed splashibility was the issue, my bad then. They are admittedly not the best sets rn but I wouldn't say they are bad, CM Clef can work similar to CM Bliss while also being a wincon. Can also keep the support its usual sets have (Wish Protect, Rocks, Knock or whatever). Sub Gliscor I imagine is viable enough, gives it more opportunities to spread toxic or set hazards with Poison Heal midgating the damage. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but has stall not in general needed specific counterplay for a lot of pokemon so far?This isn't really a compelling argument. They work, but the issue isn't not being splashable. They're just not really good in the overall metagame is the big issue. And yes, having to rely on overly specific counterplay that wouldn't see use without the Mon just to avoid losing to it, tends to be a sign of a problem. Similarly
Isn't it checking special attackers in general fine enough? Without being passive or weak to physicals because of Intimidate, feels like it can belong on certain teams who can't afford dedicated walls. I believe this was also a set ran in past generations for a bit?Spdef Grass knot LandoT is as specific as it gets and... what is it checking beyond BM? This set as a whole is worse than spdef Gliscor anyways. Regarding positioning, it's really not hard for it given so many Pokemon are afraid of it and it gets to chase them out while it boosts. If it really was so difficult, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion let alone suspect as it'd be more manageable. But it isn't and once it boosts, it's very difficult to remove without encuring huge damage yourself.
I'm aware, sorry I didn't clarify. Meant it as a general thing to see other pokemon follow and start running protect, used it since its an example of a mon who has gotten away with protect. Also, how come BMU is doing that? From what it seems like, it gives a check to certain offensive mons while having limited switch ins. The checks previously mentioned (CM Cress/Clefable, SpD Lando/Glisc, Sub Glisc, CM Bliss (aware its not v good at it), Slow Corv) are all defensive instead of offensive counterplayHeatran is bad into BM. And BM is arguably pushing the meta more offensive to handle it so removing it would do wonders for the bulky teams of the tier.
I was trying to say that it wants those 4 moves yh, and if it sticks with those the counterplay stays consistent. I assume Defensive CM sets are the big issue rn? If not, my mistake then. Should still be fine as I believe they run Vaccum Wave in the last slot? Snow teams did indeed take a huge hit but I would say they're still great rn, Screens was already good pre DLC and led to the overreaction of a light clay ban from some. I don't believe it can reliably switch into rain, pretty much ever? When it does it can be a threat but it really has a hard time getting in.It has a tiny bit of 4MSS sometimes but nowhere near enough to be a significant issue that holds it back. Especially because it really doesn't need most of those moves, Hyper Voice or Body Press. They're just tech people do for bypassing counterplay. Offensive CM sets drop Moonlight because they aren't aiming to stay all game and just blow huge holes in teams. Snow teams, or veil teams as they are actually, took a huge hit after Bax was banned and while still solid, aren't nearly as good as they used to be. While vs Rain teams, BM can still collect a couple kills as it doesn't need to boost and will just use its bulk to trade for kills instead. It is hardly dead weight.
I believe its been out for about 2? Where the majority of the focus was on Bax and Hearthflame, now that they are gone it gets to shine. I think it's better to give it some more time and watch how the meta adapts. The pokemon were discovered to be good in response to other really good stuff yeah, the meta can adapt and I'm sure it can adapt to BMU, I don't think giving it another week or so would be outrageous? You're prob right though, know this stuff more at least.BM has been around for a couple of weeks and given what we've seen people attempt to adapt to it with, using subpar sets on Pokemon, it's clear that it's a problem. Waiting more does nothing but let it keep bludgeoning the tier without letting it develop in a healthy way, and we also don't exactly have a ton of time between now and the next DLC. As for Moltres, it rose because it was discovered to have multiple excellent qualities that let it check a wide range of relevant metagame Pokemon. Sandy Shocks rose because it was found to be a good HO Pokemon, not because of sun (and has since declined in popularity). They were also seen occasionally prior to their increased popularity, and were just niche, not bad. We're not keeping a broken Pokemon around because some lower tier Mon may rise up to check it (lol won't happen).
it probably has what, ~50% usage so far in SCL week 1? That's pretty insane. Also like 99% of high ladder games (actually high ladder games, not 1700) are hidden so I doubt your anecdotal opinion on what it's doing on high ladder is even something resembling accurate. Also no pokemon, no matter how broken they are, is some autowin button. That doesn't mean they aren't broken or anything remotely healthy for competitive play.
That's a fair point. I'm mainly basing my take on my own laddering experiences (not that I'm running super anti-bear teams), and many games I've watched in the 1500-1700 ranges on showdown as well as the charity tournament and champion league matches.It has nothing to do with whether you're 1700s or 1900s, you can't just can extrapolate it's high ladder success based on just your own games, especially if you're using structures/certain mons that are overcompensating for the fact that the bear is so oppressive in the builder and centralizing in game.