Hi everyone. I've made it no secret that I'm very positive that a ban is the right course of action on Vanilluxe. It's an incredibly strong breaker, one capable of dealing more damage than our current defensive Pokemon can handle. I've in the past made the argument that teams aren't able to run Togedemaru or Aggron because of Vanilluxe, and Gigalith's usage has skyrocketed because of it. Even if this is remarkably true, I don't really see this as an adequate ban argument anymore. Whether Gigalith being used on the majority of teams is healthy for the metagame or not is not something I really want to argue going forward, especially because we have no hard proof Vanilluxe's departure would cause this to decline.
I am incredibly passionate about my belief that Vanilluxe is too much for the tier, and I'm willing to spend hours trying to convince you of this. The reason for a suspect test is not to "shake up the metagame" or to establish change for a tier we don't really enjoy (I actually enjoy SS PU quite a fair bit right now for the most part), it is to deal with potentially broken threats. Vanilluxe is one I believe fits this criteria.
Vanilluxe is an insanely powerful breaker capable of dealing insane damage to anything that switches in. It is faster than the majority of our defensive glue Pokemon and is substantially more powerful and more difficult to wall than any other Pokemon we have in the tier. This should for the most part go without saying. If we are unironically considering Pokemon like Flareon (a completely unviable Pokemon I will elaborate on further later) and Walrein just to deal with Vanilluxe, then that should alone speak so much as to how potent it really is.
But regardless of the Flareon arguments and posts, and the people who will compare it to Gallade, there are significant counter-arguments to be made. I do find them to pale in comparison to all the pro-ban arguments I've seen however. I hope I don't come off as a broken record in this post, but Vanilluxe is just an insanely powerful breaker. One that is too much for the tier to handle. Gigalith deals with it to an extent, but even this can be overwhelmed fairly easily.
Of course, it's really easy to make these claims and I hope for the most part they have been established through the previous pro-ban posts. This post alone will be focused on specifically refuting points made by DNB arguments that I just simply don't agree with. I hear the same talking points repeated a lot and it's not too difficult to debunk a lot of them. I hope you'll find my arguments compelling and I hope for the best outcome for the tier to occur.
"The prevalence of Steel-types and offensive checks to Vanilluxe on ladder didn't allow it to be overwhelming from my experience"
Ktütverde post: 9298769
Ktütverde post: 9299542
This isn't sound logic for a few reasons. We've established repeatedly that PU's array of Steel-types cannot adequately hard check Vanilluxe. This is important because it provides us with a basis for offensive breakers into our balance-oriented metagame. Every other Pokemon in the tier has much more sufficient defensive counterplay. Whether it be Substitute Scrafty, Specially Offensive Charizard, Wallbreaker Jellicent, any variant of Gallade; our tier has options in terms of defensive Pokemon you can repeatedly switch in. Whether or not a team has a Charizard in the back is irrelevant of this fact, as Vanilluxe is a wallbreaker not a cleaner. We are not of the assumption that this Pokemon cannot be revenged, when it very clearly can. Charizard can't even switch in once because it gets clean OHKOd by Blizzard, and most other offensive Pokemon with a type advantage, capable of forcing Vanilluxe after switching in out, get 2HKOd at least.
Whether we have offensive checks to it is not anywhere near as important here, unless you are suggesting we run offense. However, our tier is mostly balance-centric and Vanilluxe should not be allowed to warp the meta to a point where you are forced to run offense to deal with it. It isn't even useless versus offense, and your point revolves around the assumption that you're revenging it with these Pokemon entailing it always gets a kill at least. Unless you build your team to a point where nothing allows Vanilluxe in, just to limit Vanilluxe's offensive prowess. This kind of effect on the teambuilder seems unhealthy to me personally. This is the definition of an unhealthy Pokemon.
"Teams that are Gigalith in addition to five slow Pokemon that get OHKOd or 2HKOd by Vanilluxe are naturally going to struggle against it"
gum post: 9300555
The natural problem with this is that Vanilluxe is really not that slow. The majority of the Pokemon we commonly see in the metagame are outpaced by it. The other blatant issue with this is that Vanilluxe OHKOs or 2HKOs every Pokemon in the metagame bar a few niche ones. Vanilluxe, a single breaker, is somehow forcing us to run Gigalith, its best check, in tandem with faster Pokemon that aren't substantially weak to Vanilluxe. I want to stress how little a pool of Pokemon this is.
But first it's paramount to explain why this isn't an apt solution. Once Gigalith is taken out here, you are continuing to wallbreak, much easier than before. These Pokemon don't stop you, they don't make your life much more difficult. If you're willing to make your whole team outspeed Vanilluxe then maybe then it'd help but otherwise I'm not really sure how you intend to accomplish this. You cannot build a viable team using these parameters. Your matchup is still not great if you run Gigalith + Magmortar. Even so then, this is unhealthy. Why are we forced to run multiple slots just to keep a single Pokemon in check.
Anyway since you insisted, here are Pokemon that outspeed Vanilluxe on the VR, from S to B rank.
Charizard - OHKOd on switchin. A roll to kill Vanilluxe with Flamethrower if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Ribombee - OHKOd on switchin. A roll to 2HKO Vanilluxe with Moonblast if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Archeops - OHKOd on switchin. Kills Vanilluxe with Stone Edge if it hits, if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Gallade - OHKOd on switchin after Hail. Kills Vanilluxe with Close Combat, if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Scyther - OHKOd on switchin. Can 2HKO Vanilluxe with Dual Wingbeat if it hits both, if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Articuno-Galar - OHKOd on switchin. Kills Vanilluxe with Choice Specs Hurricane if it hits, if it attempts to revenge after a teammate has been sacked.
Sneasel - 2HKOd on switchin if Vanilluxe doesn't click Flash Cannon. 2HKOs back with Low Kick if it runs it, Vanilluxe will not stay in however.
Gourgeist-S OHKOd on switchin. Roll to OHKO back if it is Choice Band Power Whip. This is an 85% accuracy move on a set that doesn't even see extensive play. Nothing else OHKOs.
Lycanroc - OHKOd on switchin. Can OHKO back with Close Combat, if it attempts to revenge...
Mesprit - OHKOd on switchin after Hail. No set, at all, can OHKO back if it attempts to revenge...
Silvally-Fairy - Roll to be OHKOd on switchin after Hail. Cannot OHKO back with anything other than Explosion if it attempts to revenge.
Magmortar - Consistently 2HKOd after Hail. OHKOs back with Fire Blast if it hits. Can only switch in once obviously.
These Pokemon are all OHKOd with ease. They cannot do much back if they attempt to revenge...
These are for the most part, breakers. They are not glue Pokemon. Most teams will not run more than two of these Pokemon, and will be forced to run several Pokemon slower than Vanilluxe. That is just how it is.
Excuse my abrasiveness here, but I really detest how arguments have devolved into this. Why are we trying this hard to keep an obviously broken Pokemon in the metagame. "An incredibly strong wallbreaker capable of easily overwhelming its best check" should be enough of a reason. You repeatedly state here that this is how any breaker is, and that we have many similar Pokemon that can achieve a similar output. This is just not true. Choice Specs Articuno-Galar, arguably its best comparison, has to contend with its primary clickable STAB having an immunity and its strongest attack missing a lot of the time and having major resistances.
The Pokemon you mention:
Choice Specs Magneton: has this issue too, primary STAB has an immunity and its secondary STAB is easily walled. It requires precise prediction to wallbreak effectively. There's also the minor case that I'd at least like the opportunity to check it with Togedemaru, Lanturn, Quagsire, whatever Pokemon; but obviously I can't afford that opportunity right now. Being forced to run Gigalith is just ass and exacerbates Magneton's potency. Either way, not comparable to Vanilluxe.
Vikavolt: Substantially weaker and slower, as it is forced to run boots, its attacks can be capitalised off of with ease, and actually requires prediction to wallbreak a substantial amount of the time. It is required to click Agility to gain any momentum here, whereas Vanilluxe just clicks Blizzard as soon as it comes in.
Grass/Ghost-types: Their STABs are nowhere near as clickable as Blizzard. Overreliance on Poltergeist means you have to be extremely careful when pairing it with Knock Off, they're both on paper very strong threats; however, we're yet to see them do anything substantial in tournament play, I agree though that they could potentially take off post-Vanilluxe.
You make a valid point that something may come and take Vanilluxe's place once it's gone, if it goes, but this is
not how tiering works. If Vanilluxe is broken, then we should ban it. That is all there is to it. That being said, as I've tried to explain here there is no other breaker that has this easy a time getting through its checks. This Pokemon is just too strong.
"The fact that PU has come down to Gigalith or lose is flat-out incorrect"
sensei axew post: 9300805
You're absolutely right here, and me and others have definitely exaggerated how required Gigalith is at points; however, the cold hard truth of the matter is you will have an extremely poor matchup versus Vanilluxe if you do not run Gigalith or one of the more niche checks. I have an incredibly hard time understanding your following point though.
in fact, in week 5 of PUPL we see Gigalith used 17 times and it won… 5 times. Thats not even a third of the games. This is not to say that Gigalith is bad or that it can’t win games, I’m simply just using this as an example to explain how the narrative of either use gigalith or lose is flawed as teams without gigalith can easily pick up wins vs vani or no vani builds.
I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere if this is an argument being made? You don't need to have a Gigalith on your team to win in this tier obviously, the argument we have been making is that without it you are going to struggle horrendously against Vanilluxe. That is obvious enough? I'm not really getting why this was even brought up here.
Gigalith is easily abusable. And the teamstyles people run, especially the common cores people had levitated towards in the earlier rounds of PUPL are falling apart due to people being prepared. Gigalith is facing the brunt of this. "Gigalith was used 17 times and it won 5 times". Okay? How does this say anything about Vanilluxe. All it says is people are running it a very large portion of the time, which while I don't think supports a ban argument necessarily, doesn't aid your point of view whatsoever.
Here are the four times Vanilluxe was used in Week 5:
1. Vanilluxe forces Gigalith Rest by Turn 5 and powers through it later on.
2. Vanilluxe player doesn't run adequate Sneasel counterplay and uses Vanilluxe as a sack to remove Sneasel.
3&4. Vanilluxe vs Vanilluxe; zS's Vanilluxe would have gone in, had he not been forced to use it as fodder once he had gotten poor Rock Blast rolls vs Archeops or had he played that sequence better.
While Vanilluxe didn't have an excessively prominent performance this week, it is only from a sample size of four games. All over PUPL, we have seen the effect it has had on the teambuilder and how strong it has been in games. You go on to mention Flareon as a potential decent Pokemon which I definitely disagree with. Even the person who built the team tlenit used, Shane, believes Flareon isn't a good Pokemon, and I tend to agree with that sentiment. Flareon walls Ribombee and Vanilluxe yes, but beyond that it is borderline useless. It requires Toxic and Heal Bell to adequately check Charizard, but it can't afford to run that with Wish and Protect taking up its remaining moveslots. It needs an attack or it becomes incredibly passive and remains set up bait for Doublade. A Pokemon checking Ice-types and Fairy-types sure sounds like something our Steel-types should and could be doing if not for the fact they are overwhelmed power wise by Vanilluxe. They would retain this ability if Vanilluxe was gone.
A lot of this is because the main reasons I think Vanilluxe isn’t banworthy is because of how little defensive utility it brings to a team. Vanilluxe checks absolutely 0 Pokemon due to its egregiously bad defensive typing and therefore it is a dead slot if it runs into a bad mu. Its moveset is also completely useless since the only utility it offers is freezes unless youre running boots taunt toxic which is an overall mid set.
I really don't want it to seem like I'm singling out your post because I do really appreciate the amount of effort put in to posting in this thread. But I fail to see how any of this is relevant? It's a breaker, its job is to wallbreak, not have defensive utility. It doesn't need to defensively check anything and the fact that this is being brough up as a DNB argument is very silly in my eyes. Its moveset is not useless. It is a breaker. It breaks things. It is very good at doing this with the movepool it has actually. Blizzard is insanely powerful and Freeze-Dry hits defensive Water-types. There's not really a semblance of prediction needed beyond this. You are not required to be skilful to use this Pokemon. You just click Blizzard and break through the entire tier.
You mention later that it requires an extensive amount of support to bring it in, but we've seen plenty of examples where this isn't the case. There are so many times and opportunities for you to force your opponents Ground- or Grass-type in. A lot of DNB voters exaggerate how difficult Vanilluxe is to get in, but with virtually minimal support you can position it in with ease. The majority of the tier folds to Vanilluxe, and our defensive structures all get overwhelmed by it. You also mention its bulk being appalling here, but I don't think this is the case whatsoever. It has pretty decent bulk all things considered. 71/85/95 is pretty good by PU standards.
I brought up earlier, that it is impossible to build a competent balance team using Pokemon solely faster than Vanilluxe. This is reiterated here. There will always be Pokemon Vanilluxe can benefit off of. You mention that teams with five Pokemon that lose to Vanilluxe cannot be mended by slotting a Gigalith on your team, yes I agree; however, most Pokemon lose to Vanilluxe. It has more than ample opportunity to wallbreak thanks to the vast majority of the tier being OHKOd by Specs Blizzard. How is this any fair? Yea, you bring up Gallade as a similar example but that Pokemon doesn't have anywhere near as prominent breaking power. Most Pokemon can at least live an attack from Gallade. Gallade also has substantial defensive counterplay on top of this. You are not forced to run a single Pokemon and then consider your whole team on top of that.
I also would like to mention how the like between powerful and broken breaker has been completely muddied somehow. Vanilluxe is NOT a broken breaker. A broken breaker has no checks, limited offensive counterplay, and plows through defensive structures. Vanilluxe does not satisfy any of those requirements.
I disagree. I think you're being way too lenient here as to what we should consider a healthy breaker in the tier. A broken breaker does not require ZERO checks that would be outlandish. Let us unban Sceptile right now then, because Weezing checks it? Vanilluxe does have limited offensive counterplay as I've gone into earlier, but regardless this shouldn't matter too much. If a Pokemon has very very little defensive counterplay, that it can overwhelm very regularly, I would consider that broken. I also have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Vanilluxe doesn't plow through defensive structures? Is it the fact that people are running Gigalith + Doublade extensively now and you're yet to see it break through those cores? I have posted counter-examples.
As for defensive measures, I agree they are slightly lacking but once again, they are there. While Gigalith obviously is the best and most meta-orientated defensive check, there are numerous unexplored options that have already seen some success such as Flareon, Coalassol, and Frosmoth. Others include Miltank, Piloswine, Arctovish, and Cryogonal. This is also assuming that Vanilluxe is running Specs because if its not or its knocked pokemon like Togedemaru, Audino, and SpDef Wishi also check it as well. In other words, Vanilluxe does not have much set variability because outside of Specs, it is hardwalled by way too much. This is especially illustrated in the TJ vs crying PU Slam game that happened recently where a scarf vanilluxe did absolutely nothing all game and got hardwalled by three separate pokemon.
I don't think we should be forced to result to Pokemon that barely accomplish anything other than checking Vanilluxe, just to check Vanilluxe. It's astounding to me that this is repeatedly suggested when people were for a long time complaining about Scrafty's impact on the teambuilder or Charizard's impact. Now you want us to run another Pokemon just to check Vanilluxe? Say Flareon, for example. You say it's a defensive answer to Vanilluxe and Ribombee, which I'll give to you. But you are still forced to run a Steel-type or Gigalith on top of this to deal with Psychic-types. You are still forced to run a Charizard check on top of this due to the aforementioned need to run a Fire-type attack on Flareon. You are not compiling any teamslots here, you are not saving space, you have not solved any issue by running Flareon. Piloswine, Arctovish, Cryogonal. When did we get to this point? A wallbreaker should not be forcing you to run this off-meta of answers. Especially because these are incredibly hard to justify over Gigalith at all. If I don't run into Vanilluxe, there was no purpose to running any of these Pokemon in the first place.
You mention the lack of potency from HDB and Choice Scarf sets and I want to reiterate here that the only Vanilluxe set I consider broken is the Choice Specs one. There's of course the ability to outspeed and KO a lot of the suggested "offensive counterplay" with Choice Scarf sets but this isn't an argument I really care for. The Choice Specs set is the broken Vanilluxe.
You go on to conclude that Gigalith's usage spike is not proven to be because of Vanilluxe which I initially said in this post doesn't really matter. As I said earlier, Vanilluxe is not broken because it's caused a spike in Gigalith's usage, it's broken because it is an extremely powerful breaker with a myriad of redeeming features that is able to overwhelm its most "consistent" defensive check.
"Vanilluxe's wallbreaking is in-fact prediction reliant"
cyanize post: 9302003
Vanilluxe does have to click Freeze-Dry to break through Jellicent and Wishiwashi, but beyond this there is absolutely no prediction needed. This is far superior to any other breaker we have in the TIER. No other Pokemon can afford to click its main primary attack with as little drawback as Vanilluxe has. Once it clicks Freeze-Dry on these Pokemon, they can no longer switch into Blizzard anymore. You mention Centiskorch and Coalossal as Pokemon who require you to click Water Pulse, but both get whittled down sufficiently by Blizzard. Centiskorch specifically gets 2HKOd after Hail. In practice, this is rarely ever an issue due to how rarely you're stuck in a situation where Blizzard is not the optimal play.
we all know this already, but what ppl r ignoring fsr is the fact that vani requires specs to achieve its world-busting power - boots sets r lackluster in2 a lot of matchups & only somewhat decent in2 others. so by the very definition of a choiced breaker, it has 2 predict in order to make the progress that is so terrifying - and this often shows in actual matches, for example
bush v star, where star correctly guesses water pulse into aggron out of the 3 possible vani switchins on bush's side. (bush then proceeds 2 throw away his remaining ice resist by slow u-turning on eldegoss fnr, which is what allows vani to eventually click blizzard & pick up a single additional ko on the now weakened wishi. i have no idea why he did this when he has zard vs tricked specs gigalith... even if he were scared of say, seeds or stun spore, going hard whimsi would have worked just fine; the whimsi has shadow ball for doublade, & star's zard is at 40% with hail up. idk)
i feel by simply looking at the fact that a team w vani on it won at high level, instead of actually analyzing how it was used & how the match unfolded, ppl are painting an unfair picture of vanis effect on the meta.
I have previously stated that Water Pulse is not a requirement for Aggron which is absolutely the case here. It does 50% damage, with Blizzard. Blizzard is fundamentally as clickable a move as there is in this tier. For the most part, you do not miss out on much by clicking it. Once Wishiwashi comes in on Freeze-Dry once, Blizzard becomes the most spammable move in the game. You no longer have to predict a single thing. Aggron is currently not a good Pokemon, it does not check Vanilluxe well enough and has a hard time justifying itself over Gigalith. Bush was let down in the builder and it's nothing to do with the fact he made a misplay here. Eventually he would have been overwhelmed by Vanilluxe, his team does not have sufficient counterplay for it.
where the issue truly lies in vanis ability 2 spam uncontested blizzards is often, as gum pointed out, poor choices in building. i'll use
jon v thefranklin as an example here
I don't think jon would mind me saying that he didn't play this game that well, he obviously shouldn't have kept Vanilluxe in on Gigalith early and a lot of the plays following weren't amazing either; however, it isn't difficult to see how if this game were played well the Vanilluxe would have continuously come in and repeatedly click the donk move. None of this match says anything about Vanilluxe's potency being overstated. It shows how easily it could have gone in if played correctly. It also showcases Vanilluxe's solid natural bulk, with no investment whatsoever it's able to take a +2 Moonblast from Ribombee.
You go on to compare it to other "slow breakers" and how you don't think they differ all that much from Vanilluxe, despite many relying on prediction, despite many being incredibly less powerful, or much slower, or having substantially more reliable defensive counterplay. I could harp on about this all day but Vanilluxe is an exception here. Vanilluxe is incredibly potent and does not have this adequate defensive counterplay. You link
TJ vs crying as an example. This replay shows why Choice Scarf Vanilluxe is not an adequate wallbreaker, but nobody stated it was. You cannot go on to suggest running Gigalith + Togedemaru unironically. This is incredibly unfair from a teambuilding standpoint. We cannot afford to run both, just to deal with the pressure from Vanilluxe. We don't have enough team slots to justify this.
You continue by mentioning Flareon, I've gone on extensively as to why this Pokemon is hot garbage, but just to reiterate. Flareon is being run over a Steel-type/Giga, but you are still required to run a Steel/Giga. It cannot do enough.
despite vanilluxe's flaws, i think u can still make a decent argument for it being "not healthy" as hera said - it's a breaker with absolutely no defensive value or "purpose" other than 2 explode the enemy team, it does force pretty predictable gameplay when it hits the field, & its defensive counterplay is very slim indeed. at the end of the day, i wouldnt be particularly miffed were it 2 leave the tier... but i also find it very odd that a mon that has gigalith as its sole true answer is suddenly problematic when another mon has had the same status for almost a year now? anyways, if u actually read all this instead of skippin 2 the tl;dr ty :)
Which other Pokemon has had the same status for a year now violet? Charizard has so much more viable counterplay that I would much rather run over Gigalith a lot of the time, and in general just a lot more options. It also actually has defensive utility, it is one of our best Defog users and it is, in my opinion, not putting the excessive crippling pressure on teams that you seem to allude to. In terms of breakers though, Vanilluxe is very special. It is incredibly strong, it 3HKOs the Rest Gigalith that it is forcing to become a staple. It destroys the balance teams that have been throughout the meta for ages. People want to go to insane lengths just to keep it in the tier. For what? It is unhealthy as shit.
On a silly side note, I do find it funny that most DNB posts have this one line about not really caring if it left the tier, while most ban voters are incredibly adamant about wanting it to leave the tier. It's just a little funny statement that comes up and up and up that doesn't really mean anything but it is humorous at the very least.
tl;dr vani's ability to punish slow teams is not unique & it doesn't excessively outperform the other numerous breakers we have. it is very strong, but exploitable, and is primarily held back by a non existent defensive profile. its presence is actively causing healthy metagame shifts - offense being good now is not a bad thing. vani is simply riding the wave of ppl having been far 2 focused on other impossible 2 handle threat(s). stop using defog zard, it's ass, 2/3 atks zard is the actual chokehold on this meta - test espeon and/or drampa if we need hazard control that bad. also we might need 2 start looking at scyther harder that mon is a little crazy
Your post doesn't prove this though. Your post doesn't really say anything about Choice Specs Vanilluxe's potency really. It focuses on calling it prediction reliant initially which is easily disproven. Then you comment on jon's game which shows just how easily Vanilluxe can go into teams. Then you go on to mention its inability to break through balances with a Choice Scarf set, which we've established is not the problematic element of this Pokemon. You compare it to much less oppressive breakers, and then you finally compare it to Charizard which does not serve that similar a role. I appreciate the post, and I love the fact you're contributing especially because you are a friend, but this post does unfortunately leave a lot to be desired from a standpoint of content focused on whether Vanilluxe is overwhelming and oppressive or not. I also have a problem with you suggesting three attacks Charizard over running Toxic, something it clearly cannot and should not do, and the mention of "offense being good now thanks to Vanilluxe" but that's a topic for another day.
"
The too-frequent assumption that the Vanilluxe player somehow has perfect hazard control."
Gl4ss post: 9302314
As previously mentioned, Vanilluxe is vulnerable to all forms of hazards. Players are under no obligation to simply allows Vanilluxe to switch in over, and over, and over again. One common issue that I've observed is that protecting Gigalith from undue chip prevents players from setting their Rocks in a timely fashion. If that is your problem, I don't particularly sympathize with you. You are perfectly within your rights to pick another Rock setter and take the burden off of Gigalith, who is frequently defensively overburdened even outside of the Vanilluxe threat. If you choose not to, that is a sacrifice that you are making in the name of role compression.
I wanted to address this point specifically in your post because I believe it's the one that holds the most weight and the other two were messily construed in my eyes, and also they've been somewhat addressed throughout my other responses. I appreciate the post though and it's always good to hear more points of view. I believe people kind of hype up how difficult it is to get Vanilluxe in against the team's common balances.
Because of how our meta is forced to be a slow shitfest of Quagsires and Sandacondas and Eldegosses and Weezings, due to balance and bulkier playstyles being the only overtly reliable playstyle, you will always find opportunities to force these Pokemon in. If you pair Vanilluxe with almost any other offensive Pokemon that forces in one of these bulky staples, you will find opportunities to bring it in. People continually exaggerate a little talking about how difficult it is to get this Pokemon in, but there are so many times in a game where your opponent is FORCED to switch into these passive defensive Pokemon. This is just how our meta is.
You make a solid point that Vanilluxe does require removal to repeatedly switch in again and again; however, that isn't so so difficult currently. With the increased prevalence of Sandslash, Charm Eldegoss, and other removal options, Doublade is no longer the behemoth blocker it was in the earlier rounds of PUPL. But even without considering the need for removal, it's also important to note that you're not really switching your Vanilluxe in on attacks. You're switching it in on forced switches, or pivoting it in via Scyther or Wishiwashi, or whatever other pivot you tend to run. It has several opportunities to come in here even with hazards up.
None of this is to assert that Vanilluxe requires some ungodly amount of skill to pilot, but moreso to draw attention to the fact that Vanilluxe punching holes in a team doesn't just 'happen' by sheer unbalanced might. If Vanilluxe thunderc*cks a slow team that is one Freeze away from being swept, I just don't think that's a problem of Vanilluxe as much as it is an indictment of the prevailing teambuilding philosophy currently common in the tier.
I understand this opinion but we have enough examples of Vanilluxe just plowing through teams. No Pokemon effortlessly sweeps through everything in a vacuum, but Vanilluxe, once in, can virtually effortlessly click Blizzard and rip holes through every Pokemon we have pretty much. You mention that we shouldn't dismiss Flareon as unviable, but I hope I have explained to you why it actually is this. There is a case to be made for meta adaptation whenever we're looking at a potentially broken threat but unfortunately Flareon is below mediocre regardless of this. I like being able to justify using new Pokemon to solve a problem I've had while building. Vanilluxe unfortunately extends beyond this. All these Pokemon people mention like Flareon, Lapras, Walrein, Choice Scarf Arctovish, or whatever is just meaningless and impossible to justify over running Gigalith. Vanilluxe is not seeing insane usage, I cannot afford to run these Pokemon just to check this one single threat.
I want to elaborate here but yea. I like using uncommon Pokemon a lot, I've done it ever since I started playing competitive Pokemon, ever since 2013. There's something really interesting about finding under the radar cool Pokemon I can justify running just to check certain metagame threats. I'm very aware of the need to adapt to certain meta threats in order to deal with Pokemon, but Vanilluxe's power level is above the threshhold for something where I can consider it healthy adaptation. When I'm being forced to run Articuno on balance (where max SpD isn't even a guarantee to survive the 2HKO from full) or being told to run Flareon on my team solely to have a better Vanilluxe matchup and nothing else, this is beyond the scope of what I'm prepared to do.
"I don't think Banning Vanilluxe will fix any of the issues with the metagame."
ManOfMany post: 9302764
The stale teambuilding with Gigalith/Bee and a rotation of Wishiwashi/Charizard/Doublade/Sandslash on every team doesn't really have to do too much with Vanilluxe. Gigalith is just really damn good and easy to fit on teams because it checks so many special attackers, most of which are more common than Vanilluxe. Ribombee's speed and utility is unmatched... although it can get quite passive as Ktut said. The fact that these types of teams get eaten alive by powerful wallbreakers isn't really too much of an issue, because otherwise there would be no drawbacks to running these teams at all. The best way to limit wallbreakers is with using Offense, and I think we are seeing that with upcoming weeks of PUPL. People are adapting to the meta a little bit, it's not all just predictable Gigalith balance but a mixture of offense, balance, and even stall. (Stall actually has a better matchup vs mons like Vanilluxe because they can afford dedicated counters). This is the signs of a healthier tier coming, and I am optimistic that people will be creative enough to experiment.
This is not the problem with Vanilluxe. Vanilluxe is a broken breaker, it breaks through the entire tier very easily. Gigalith is its only reliable check, and even that is easily overwhelmed. That is why it should be banned. It's nothing to do with "stale teambuilding" or if it will "fix the metagame". You mention people are adapting, but only a small part of this is healthy adaptation. People I've quoted above on the DNB side have mentioned running Gigalith + multiple faster breakers that can revenge Vanilluxe as an adequate tactic but then fail to see how Vanilluxe efficiently breaks through these teams regardless. People want to keep this Pokemon in the tier so bad for no good reason when it's proven time and time again how oppressive of a force it is.
If I were to suspect any one pokemon it would be Scrafty. Scrafty is incredibly limiting to teambuilding because of its various different sets, all of which are very viable. This includes DD with various items, Bulk Up (btw this can run Toxic for Quagsire if you like), Choice Band, even Substitute + 3 atks. It is one of the main why people are running Ribombee on every team, a pokemon that takes 75% + from poison jab ( I've been running DD Life Orb to straight up kill it). Scrafty finds its way into play very easily due to its bulk and typing unlike most of the wallbreakers we've talked about, and the ability to check it often devolves into a few coin flips. That being said, its initial power can often be lacking and all its sets have counterplay because it cannot possibly run both Dragon dance, heal Status, and be super bulky all in one.
Please just engage with the topic at hand. Vanilluxe is an oppressive powerhouse and has virtually no effective counterplay. It adds nothing to the tier on top of this. Compare this to Scrafty, which actually has substantial counterplay, which actually has redeeming features which would give us reason to keep it in the tier. Ribombee isn't as prevalent a check as you believe and genuinely we have a sufficient amount of counterplay in my eyes. Regardless of your opinions of Scrafty, can we please focus on the broken Pokemon at hand. I think the tier would benefit immensely from the departure of Vanilluxe. We can talk about Scrafty after the suspect test's conclusion; focusing on it right now does us no good. It's the same case with Guzzlord. I'd definitely like to resuspect it at some point, but right now my main focus is on Vanilluxe. I would love to have proactive discussions about this after the conclusion of the suspect test.
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Ktüt had an issue with my previous post where I stated my opinion and then said "I implore people to vote ban if they value metagame health". I'm sorry if this ruffled a few feathers but I am well within my rights to write a post showcasing my opinion as a tier leader. I'm sorry if you think it's influencing the general populace by telling people what I intend to vote. That being said, sorry if you had preferred I phrase that differently, I'll try better in future.
Regardless of my disagreement with a large portion of the posts in this thread, I am incredibly grateful for the responses and activity. I'm glad to see people share their voices instead of just sitting on the sideline and saying "nah not broken". I appreciate the time and effort all of you have gone to. I really hope you'll read through the pro-ban posts and come to a sound conclusion on your own. I am incredibly adamant that this Pokemon is broken. If people do choose to vote do not ban within the coming few days I will obviously do my duty as a tier leader and move on. Thank you for reading.