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Hello I am here to help the Eggy Hype Train with some sun:
Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 16 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Why Timid over Modest?
Well, the EVs look bizarre but they are actually optimized. Timid with 236 EVs lets Eggy hit 224 speed, which allows it to outrun Timid Scarf Rotom F, Modest Scarf Chatot, and Adamant Ninjask while in the sun...which Modest cannot do at all. Also, neutral nature max Sp. A is still stronger than Modest Victreebel so the drop in power isn't critical. There are a couple clean ohkoes you miss on things like Stoutland, but the difference is made up enough by Stealth Rocks. The drop in Speed EVs also allows Eggy to hit 335 HP to max HP without making it divisible by 4 for entry hazards, and the rest is dumped into Defense lazily to buffer some priority.
Alternatively, you can run a 32 HP / 36 Def / 252 Sp A / 188 Spd with Timid to outspeed all of the listed except Scarf Frost. This gives you more bulk, but at the obvious cost of being revenge killed by Rotom Frost's Blizzard.
I will post replays when I'm able, but I can promise that this set is a godsend to sun. It also fits fairly well into Dundies Sun :^)
Ok, so now that I've had a bunch of test games in this new metagame since the tier shift, testing the new Pokemon's various sets and also some cool underrated Pokemon that have discovered new viability, I actually really enjoy this metagame. Before the tier shift I felt like Primeape, Gorebyss, and Pawniard would be the biggest issues to the tier, all being potentially ban-worthy. Once I found out what we actually gained in the tier shift, on one hand I was really pleased with the Pokemon we got, by a long shot (5 drops, all really different in role? Yes please), but I was also weary of Gorebyss, Pawniard, and also Exeggutor being potentially too much for the tier to handle, and interfering with the stability of the tier being played in the PU Seasonal. After many test games however, I feel differently, and I think I even prefer this metagame to the previous one. I'll start by saying that I don't think any Pokemon that were viable before the tier shift have become unviable now, so all that has really happened is that diversity has increased. Yes, stall teams and defensive teams don't have an easy time with Gorebyss and Exeggutor, but both of these Pokemon do have defensive counterplay for sure, and I was always an advocate of defensive teams having a fast Pokemon to cover significant threats that they can't just outspeed and KO normally, so this slot is able to be something that can beat Gorebyss for example (Electrode springs to mind here, Timid Electrode outspeeds +2 Modest Gorebyss while also being able to OHKO Exeggutor with Signal Beam). I even think that PU's options against Vigoroth are more plentiful now, so at the moment I am really hesitant on a call to suspect test or ban anything immediately, as I honestly think this meta is a good meta at the moment, and that each of the threats that have been introduced have the ability to be prepared for. Maybe it will be established that these Pokemon will become broken in time, but at the moment I don't think there is significant cause for alarm.
Now for the actual Pokemon themself. I'm going to start by talking about Gothitelle because it was the first one that I decided to build around. The reason I tried to build around Gothitelle is because once the Pokemon were dropped in the tier shift, everyone was talking about how amazing and defining Gorebyss, Pawniard, Exeggutor, and Bouffalant would be, but the majority's consensus was that Gothitelle was simply outclassed by its fellow Psychic-types, Kadabra, Grumpig, and Mr. Mime. After testing it, it has honestly performed pretty exceptionally. I'm just going to say that while the Gothitelle set I used is the one that HJAD posted about, I built this team before I even saw that post >_>. I'm not just trying to steal your creation HJAD! Anyway, the idea behind Gothitelle was that its advantages over other Psychic-types were: better bulk, especially specially, Competitive, and Gothitelle's pretty nifty support movepool. There are heaps of cool moves in there actually, but I decided to use Mean Look. Given Gothitelle's great special bulk and access to Calm Mind, a Mean Look + CM set seemed really cool, and devastating to those unaware of it, because if Gothitelle manages to set up a Mean Look on something unsuspecting like a Stunfisk setting up rocks, a weakened Roselia expecting to be sacced, or a Politoed for example, it can simply set up to +6 / +6 and take down at least two members of the opposing team. Against slower, more defensive teams, this set can often 6-0, but it can still get at least 2 kills against offensive teams thanks to its bulk (I used 248 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD Bold, and I actually can't remember what it specifically does but from testing this thing has survived a hell of a lot from an Acrobatics Jumpluff at like 25%, it takes like 65% from Stoutland, Murkrow's Brave Bird was only doing around half, etc. Obviously once it has set up it can't be revenged by special attackers bar crits, but its physical bulk is definitely really nice. Competitive is also really helpful, you're effectively a Beeheyem against a Sticky Web team, can switch into Defog (and don't care about Scald burns!), and random things like Stunfisk EP SpD drops only benefit you. Obviously though, this set has some problems, and the major one is that it can't touch Dark-types. However, the team you should be using this set on is one that aims to lure and get rod of Dark-types so it can sweep, for example I used gasquakee's Colbur HP Fighting Exeggutor and it worked marvelously to lure Pawniard and Mightyena. The problem is Vullaby, which Gothitelle can only PP stall with the correct set, as anything with Taunt, Whirlwind, or U-turn is going to be troublesome. However, this set has performed pretty exceptionally for me in test games so far, especially in one against blarajan where he had no idea what Gothitelle did and stayed in to set up Stealth Rocks so I won. I would definitely recommend giving Gothitelle a try as it is a pretty decent Pokemon, not a really exceptional one worthy of a high VR rank, but still decent and valuable on a team. You can also test out the rest of Gothitelle's support movepool, as well as something like CM / Psychic / Thunderbolt or HP Fighting / Rest, but outside of the bulk and Competive, this faces significant competition with Grumpig, which boasts more resistances. Try Gothitelle though, it's pretty cool!
Now obviously I've written a lot already so I'm not going to go into too much detail about the other four Pokemon but basically a few things to touch upon in discussion: Pawniard has a bunch of checks like Stunfisk, Vullaby, Monferno, the fact that it dies to Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump, etc, Exeggutor is really tough to switch into especially if you get Ancient Power boosts, but it suffers its own problems, just always bring a Pokemon that OHKOes it when using a defensive team, and the Colbur set is really really cool, but there's plenty of room to be creative, think Specs, Sunny Day, SubSitrus even. Gorebyss is insane but remember it is really easy to revenge kill, anything above Scarf Timid Rotom-F and including it will outspeed even Timid +2 Gorebyss, I'm talking scarfed Rotom-F, Sawsbuck, Simipour, Modest Floatzel, Modest Raichu, Chatot, and most will be Modest Gorebyss anyway, opening it up to things like Electrode and Modest scarfers. Defensive teams are in a bit of trouble but something like SpD Clefairy with Thunder Wave + something to OHKO it means it's beating 1 Pokemon maximum, maybe 0 even. Bouffalant is really mad bulky, if the SubSD set gets a Sub you are saccing something so be careful, I have been loving Assault Vest because you can EV it to survive 2 Specs Exeggutor Psychics, lol, its bulk is amazing and it is really strong too, with two great abilities. Other good Pokemon right now include Vullaby, Monferno, Life Orb Floatzel as always, Electrode, and Murkrow, which is supremely underrated. I am really looking forward to see how this meta adapts, if you want some teams for seasonal this + next round PM me, chall me on PS if you want a game, and get innovating!
Yay PawnEgg is a thing now! Time to break the meta!
In all seriousness tho, Gothitelle could have a little viability here (although prolly C or B- rank at best) courtesy of Competitive, which allows it to act as a special Pawniard albeit with worse typing) that isn't called Wigglytuff. They key problem with Wigglytuff comes from its crappy movepool and stat spread, and Gothitelle has at least the former covered, having the very psychic-type-like amazing special movepool, of which good moves include Psychic, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Taunt, Trick, Heal Bell, Future Sight and Thunder Wave. It is nice as a kinda supportive take on Pawniard, and it'll be interesting to see if its any good. Here are some potential sets:
Gothitelle @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature (only use modest on specs)
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Signal Beam
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Trick / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball
Other options: Future Sight (fucks with offense)
Signal Beam nets a much harder hit on Exeggutor, but Shadow Ball nets a harder hit on Missy. Thunderbolt v.s. Energy Ball depends on if u wanna hit Pelliper or Pawniard for SE damage.
Gothitelle @ Life Orb / Colbur Berry
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunder Wave / Substitute
- Taunt / Signal Beam / Substitute
Other options: Heal Bell
Takes advantage of its good movepool. HP Fighting beats Pawn, and Thunder Wave/Substitute allows you to play around its Sucker Punch. Taunt allows you to stallbreak, and Signal Beam stops Egg from completely walling you.
In terms of raw stats, Boufalant is a worse Stoutland (its slower, identical attack stat and only minutely bulkier). However, with its access to Sap Sipper to act as a stop to Roselia, Exeggutor and the like, as well as access to Swords Dance and Head Charge, it has a niche as a sort of middle ground between Stoutland, Gogoat and Sawsbuck. It is definitely very good, and as such you should prepare for it when possible. SubSD could be pretty threatening given the raw power it has and its good bulk, and with access to Megahorn to net an OHKO on max/max Exeggutor unboosted it has potential as a pretty scary webs attacker. The sets I see being the best are SubSD and Choice Band:
Megahorn bops Exeggutor, Earthquake bops Stunfisk and Superpower bops tank Regice. EVs prevent uninvested Stunfisk's Earth Power from breaking Bouf's sub and outpace uninvested Gogoat, allowing you to hit it with Megahorn before it Quakes or Superpowers (the latter could see a little use now Bouf is there to wall it).
Bouffalant @ Choice Band
Ability: Sap Sipper / Reckless
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Charge
- Megahorn
- Superpower
- Earthquake
Do I even need to tell you what this does?
Gorebyss isn't that good, and really it will do the same kind of thing that it does in NU (Shell Smash). Without Smash'n'pass, this thing doesn't have much of a niche over the more consistent Floatzel and Simipour tbh.
Meowstic-F's movepool is so 2-dimensional tho. Gothitelle has a lot of good options that Meowstic-F simply lacks, and it actually has the bulk to take some of the less powerful hits in the metagame (which Meowstic can't).
>Exeggutor in PU
Oh, boy. Time for me to start experimenting with these overlooked pokes. I've used Harvest Petaya Sub Exeggutor for a very long time in OU with great success.
If you wanna try this hype out look at this -
Exeggutor @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- Psyshock
Pretty sure better EV Spreads exist since I'm not the best Pokemon Player (I live in VGC), but I highly suggest experimenting with it. Just keep chopping away the HP whilst staying alive, put the opponent to sleep and rek it. One interesting venture would be Leech Seed over Giga Drain, but Giga is better for getting HP quicker rather than hoping they'll stay asleep. I wouldn't go for protect over Giga/Psyshock since you've got nothing to gain.
Gorebyss: Before the drops, I thought if this dropped, well, it would break the tier with Shell Smash. But, in reality, it isn't too great. It needs team support thanks to it's low speed and average defenses, and stuff like Lord Electrode can still outspeed it! It can still be very powerful with team support, but it isn't too great over the other Waters, like Floatzel or Simipour.
Bouffalant: Sap Sipper. OMG THIS IS AMAZING!!!! It is a stop to stuff like Tangela and Roselia, and it hits like a truck! SubSD is my favorite set by far, while Choice Band is also great. While it may be a tad outclassed by Stout, it is still going to be a pretty good mon thanks to Sap Sipper.
Pawniard: Doesn't look too bad. Defiant is pretty nice, and it can hit pretty damn hard, but it's pretty damn frail tho, urrgh.
EGGY: EGGY IN PU OML LET'S GO! But, in all seriousness, Eggy is powerful. With good STAB for PU at least and a monstorous 125 special attack, it hits like a truck, and it has enough speed to outspeed some threats. It's typing hurts it a bit, but Eggy is gonna be a big threat.
Gothitelle: eh, sort of outclassed, but it's bulky and it has Competitive. It's okay, but not that great. (Why u no get Focus Blast)
None of the drops seem too overwhelming or broken, so I'm definetely liking this new meta! Celebration!
Pawniard, Eggy, and Bouffalant are really the only relevant drops, but my favorite by far is Eggy. I've always loved him as a Pokemon but he sucks competitively, now that he's dropped to PU maybe he'll finally see some love. Here's the set I'm currently using with him.
I've tried out this set a handful of times so far and I like it. Rest + Lum Berry + Harvest is silly at times, and Giga Drain + Psychic do massive damage off Eggy's frankly stupid Sp. Attack stat. I feel like the only things really holding him back is Bouffalant and Zebstrika sipping up that sap, his low speed, and how his weird defensive typing leaves him taking more than half damage to U-Turn from pokes like Monferno.
Exeggutor - The most unexpected drop we got with hype of possible Cryogonal and Primeape no one ever thought Exeggutor would drop instead. Already in a short amount of time Exeggutor has turned into a top tier threat with many already innovating sets such as Gasquakees Colbur/Harvest. Its typical sets tend to be a Sun Abuser/Self setter or Speggs (Specs). Many in fear of its potential power have already looked and discovered reliable Checks and even Counters in SpD Vullaby and Zweilous needless to say however Exeggutor is definitely a very loved and dangerous drop many should prepare for.
Pawniard - Many shouted broken from the rooftops as soon as they saw Pawniard drop to Pu again with its biggest counter, Poliwrath, no longer dwelling alongside it. Few believed anything could stop but yet again already stops have been discovered in Stunfisk, Relicanth, Monferno and more. However despite common stops to Pawniard being found it still hasn't derailed the chess piece pokemon with its deadly SD set and Dark spam teams being very threatening and Hazard Stack teams gaining a new way of deterring Defog it has shown to be even more troublesome. As with Exeggutor a new set in Choice Band has been discovered (Tect) providing skilled players a new way of using Pawniard.
Gorebyss - Something the Pu community has been 50/50 on for a while now Gorebyss is our newest Water-Type and another set-up sweeper with Shell Smash which automatically makes it quite threatening. However its speed allow common scarfers to outspeed it but if there taken out Gorebyss automatically can devastate teams. Nothing too innovative for Pu comes with this other then Hp electric over Hp grass i haven't had a lot of experience with it yet but it has the makings of an interesting threat.
Gothitelle/Bouffalant - i haven't touched on these as of yet so no input i have heard good things with Bouf and Goth is being heavily tested by others so hopefully it has something worthwhile.
Another notable thing for the tier is that nothing has changed for the worse in viability from the looks of things which is awesome some pokemon have also gotten a lot better.
Zweilous - This for me has become so much better countering Exeggutor (and Pawniard to an extent) is huge right now
Alongside Heal Bell Grumpig it has been very fun to use and forms a nice mixed offensive core with Monferno. (Will edit evs when optimal spread has been found) Overall Zweilous has gotten quite the boost in terms of viability.
Monferno - Checking Exeggutor/Boufallant and being Pawniards bane Monferno has benefited quite a bit this shift with each set slightly benefiting in one way or another.
Dark-Spam/Hazard Stack - two offensive play styles have also benefited with the new additions. Hazard Stack has two new toys, The return of Pawniard who deters Defog and provides Priority and Exeggutor providing a powerful wall breaker to destroy common cores.
Dark-Spam received Pawniard who works well alongside Yena/Krow but also the addition of Exeggutor allows heavy pressure.
Weather Offence/Balance - Weather may of hit actual war in Pu with Egg/Pawn/Gore boosting Sun/Sand/Rain respectively.
Due to Hippopotas' Sand Steam weather balance is a playstyle that can be accomplished with ease in Pu, Pawniard, effectively works well on Balance/Offence with the pre-mentioned capabilities it has.
Rain is much more deadly and turns Gorebyss into an extreme threat fixing its biggest issue in speed and further boosting Hydro Pumps power this is definitely a game changer in terms of weather.
Lastly, Sun has definitely made is return from the vic ban thanks to Exeggutor. Although it doesn't have Weather Ball and the speed stat of Vic higher SpA and Psychic/Psyshock allows its presence to be felt, Luckily its just very good in sun not broken allowing a great member for weather for its time in Pu.
I have been enjoying the current meta quite a lot and its sure to be exciting with all the possibilities brought with it.
Becoming Official and this massive tier shift definitely has turned heads and made Pu extremely popular well done Lads and Ladies :) Lets keep it up
Ok, few more thoughts. Pawn is pawn, kinda obnoxious but like a thing. Gore can be checked by some fast scarfer which has basically become mandatory, havent tried goth yet. Bouff and Eggy are what I've focused on so far, so here's some stuff.
Bouffalant @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof / Sap Sipper
Happiness: 0
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Frustration
Sub SD Bouff is an improved Lickilicky and the extra power really shows, I know other people have posted on it but I wanted to point out that Soundproof is p cool as chatot is everywhere and 128 speed is a great benchmark imo for beating uninvested toed/solrock and vibrava
Bouffalant @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Frustration
I won't reveal my speed creep right now, but AV bouff is terrifying. This thing can switch into LO Kaddy and pursuit. With SR up. Great at living random hits and fucking over opponents, reminds me of Piloswine a lot in that it'd take 3 hits to kill and have nice offensive presence.
Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 16 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I tried this core on the advice of Teddeh who was saying something about a dual weather core rather than a single weather sweeper or full weather team. I find auto sun Eggy a bit underwhelming, the issue is that, like Gorebyss, it's just going to be forced out by something fast/kadabra/a scarfer. Definitely a solid mon, but not sweeping teams without support. Enter Sawsbuck then. The 4 attacks set graduated into a really solid wallbreaker that's a pain for somewhat more offensive teams thanks to its coverage (and honestly, stall/BO sorta blows rn), but you run it over Dodrio or something because once Eggy's revenged by the scarfer/you sack something else, that's 3 turns of free Buck mayhem. Leafeon likely works as well, I wanted Jump Kick personally but the idea is you sorta get two mons together that fit well. Might try Golduck+Gorebyss or something ooo. Oh and that's Al'Akir's eggy spread since I didn't quite know what to run.
Really fun meta so far imo, bulkier playstyles have suffered a lot but it's rather solid and I'm looking forward to how this plays out. Not the shitted up seasonal meta I expected.
I think enough people have gone into detail about the new drops and their sets (like a million eggy ones, though i havent seen a custap berry one yet, sigh), so this post is mainly going to focus on the metagame. As most people have noticed, the drops have caused the metagame to become a lot more offensive; exeggutor has very few switch ins, and though there are many grass and psychic resists, not many would like to switch in on the other STAB/coverage, subsd bouffalant is also incredibly threatening, bulky teams pretty much have to run ghost type + steel type/relicanth as otherwise a different coverage move can screw them, and though pawniard/gorebyess have more common counters, bulky mons hate taking knock off and with spikes gorebyess can break its way through counters (sub sets also threaten politoed assuming psychic coverage). Offensive teams have less of an issue with some of the drops, as eggy and bouff aren't too hard to hard to revenge kill due to them being slow and the former having 7 weaknesses (though bouff behind a sub is scary), pawn can be played around with things like will-o dash, however gorebyess is very threatening to teams lacking a choice scarf user.
As people have been saying, sun and sticky web are also both better. Personally i dont think webs got a huge gain, as eggy/bouff are still revenge killable, though goreb becomes a big issue to scarf reliant teams (if you are using webs bring a sturdy flying resist ffs). I havent tried sun yet but i can imagine its on levels similar to victreebel meta as exeggutor is even stronger, though it struggles with choice scarf users and more priority. Rain also has a new tool with gorebyess, though i dont think that will make much of a change as we have plenty of special water types, and though sand has ever so slightly improved as although it hasn't directly benefitted, but stout can easily break offensive teams, and both bouff can bait and cripple rock/steel (eggy is also great at pressuring them).
Jumpluff is a pokemon i have been enjoying more now. Fast encore is really helpful for bouffalant, vigoroth and many others, and sleep powder is nice for it to check pawniard (though you cannot do much back), and it also provides memento support for gorebyess, which makes me more willing to use life orb. Monferno is another great mon atm as it can OHKO bouffalant while also being a switch in to pawniard, and priority mach punch is always helpful. Murkrow is another mon which was been hyped before the shift and only gotten better as it can trap eggy (even resists its dual stab, though it cant take a non-psychic hit) and unlike dodrio, it can run hidden power/heat wave to damage steels and rocks. Lastly Regice was amazing even before the tier shifts, as it is so overlooked meaning many offensive teams have nothing to take it on after it has boosted. Ofc there are many other amazing mons and a lot more to write about each of these, but i'm still testing stuff.
Also another nice thing about the shifts, they all threaten vigoroth (though linoone seems to be even more of a threat).
and before trc mentions something about him sweeping me in 2 more turns that is lies
e: after more testing i cant see linoone lasting here for much longer
Ok so I promised some replays to push my assertion of Timid over Modest on SunEggy, but I decided instead to make an entire post of Exeggutor and its role in sun...along with the current state of sun in the PU metagame as I have found it.
Keep in mind that I will not be commenting on any other set or any other playstyle. Just Eggy in sun.
Timid or Modest Chlorophyll Exeggutor?
Well that is actually a rather complex question that goes into what you are trying to accomplish with your Exeggutor. 90% of the time, I firmly believe that Timid is better due to the significant list of things you now outspeed. Modest can only hit 418 speed and that is barely enough to outspeed base 140 (which is the entire unboosted tier), while Timid hits 458, which can outspeed up to +nature Scarf base 89. It should also be noted that neutral nature max Sp. A on Exeggutor is 2-3 points higher than Modest max Sp. A Victreebel, so your revamped sun team won't be missing out on any power for the Solar Beam for running Timid.
There is more in-depth information here:
What's in that list that Timid outspeeds that Modest doesn't? Adamant Ninjask, Scarf Monferno, Modest Scarf Chatot, Scarf Rotom-Frost, Scarf Stoutland (yes I know it's not really relevant but it's still noteworthy), and Scarf Gabite. Most of that list can revenge kill Modest easily, and those that can't get the clean KO can cripple. In turn, Egg has a good chance to ohko all of those with the appropriate move. This simple change from Modest to Timid can decide matches alone as people have to play much more carefully around the Exeggutor since may not be able to revenge kill, or in best case scenario: unintentionally sack their revenge killer/wincon. This actually makes Exeggutor an even better midgame for sun, as your opponent will either have to weaken their counters earlier in the game or get residual damage on their faster revenge killers...either way helps a later sweep by another sun abuser.
There is the obvious drop in power from Timid, however. Most of the roles that change go from clean ohkoes to very favorable rolls to ohkoes with Stealth Rock. For example:
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 296-348 (95.1 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 270-320 (86.8 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 231-273 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 211-250 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 188-224 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 173-204 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recoveryHonestly this is the biggest difference and is important to consider.
The list goes on like this. There is also one more important factor to think about when dealing with Modest vs. Timid, but I will get to that in a second.
Should I run Hidden Power Fire or AncientPower?
This point is pretty interesting and ties into the above debate of Timid over Modest. HP Fire gives Exeggutor the ability to have an answer to Steel-types and also gives a better answer to Grass-types as well..and also benefits from the sun boost. AncientPower on the other hand gives a better answer to Vullaby and Houndour, who can run the Specially Defensive set to completely counter Exeggutor but loses to AncientPower if the Vullaby is Physically Defensive instead. Most of the time you should run HP Fire so that you aren't setup fodder for Klang and can KO things like Tangela in 1 turn of sun instead of wasting 2 turns, but I wouldn't consider baiting in and killing Physically Defensive Vullaby to clear the way for a Sawsbuck/Leafeon sweep later to be a bad thing. If you do run AncientPower, you might as well run Modest to do as much damage to Vullaby as possible.
Alright so now we have Exeggutor figured out. How does it do in the sun? Is it the NEW VICTREEBEL?!
Short answer: It's very good, but I don't think it's the new Victreebel. Long answer:
Exeggutor is a fantastic boon for sun. Sun has been wanting a new powerful abuser of Chlorophyll ever since the Victreebel ban and now it has that abuser. Exeggutor has a dual-STAB option of Grass and Psychic, which lets it decimate with Solar Beam and then Psyshock if Eggy needs to KO a Poison-type resist or needs around a Specially Defensive wall. The amount of the tier that TIMID Exeggutor can OHKO is honestly incredible, and with actual bulk Eggy can be difficult to revenge kill. Exeggutor also has Sleep Powder to disable would-be counters like Pawniard and then proceed to KO them as well.
However, Exeggutor is not the new Victreebel. Victreebel hit a considerably better speed tier of 478 in the sun with a neutral nature, making Victreebel much harder to outspeed and revenge kill. Modest Exeggutor does have more power than Victreebel, but then loses to a lot of very common revenge killers...otherwise they are about the same when it comes to Solar Beam power. The access to Weather Ball that Victreebel has that Exeggutor is also HUGE, as HP Fire is significantly weaker than Weather Ball and comes into play a lot. Regice can actually take any hit from Exeggutor and then revenge kill with Ice Beam, whereas Victreebel had a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. There are also pokes like Metang that can take the HP Fire and respond with damage, but cannot take the Weather Ball. Sludge Bomb is also notably handier for damage than Psyshock, as Psyshock can only get around things like Roselia and Lickilicky while Sludge Bomb gave Victreebel a much better way to beat Fire Types and high damage on Grass resists in general.
In conclusion, Exeggutor is not the new Victreebel. It's notably slower and ironically less powerful. Exeggutor is, however, still VERY GOOD...just not as broken as Victreebel.
That is a lot about Exeggutor, but how is Sun in general?
The metagame has changed a lot since Dundies introduced his borked sun, but I have been using a variant of that team that is slightly updated for the times. Overall, the metagame has a large amount of bulky setup mons and a lot of fast attackers with few defensive teams running around. Now that sun has another good Chlorophyll mon, sun is back up to being a legitimate strategy with a new twist: it is not overpowered anymore. The drop in Speed and secondary option power really does make a difference and makes Exeggutor much more manageable. Offensive teams have plenty of options to revenge kill and check Exeggutor, and without that overpowering midgame that sun had with Victreebel sun has a notable harder time pulling out the victory. Defensive teams now also have options to beat sun that they didn't have with Victreebel. Sun is much more manageable now.
But don't think Sun is anything less than a powerhouse. A metagame that is based around mons that rely on speed is a metagame that Sun can blast right open. Normal Spam teams can be outsped and beaten by Sun, and Voltturn teams that rely on offensive pressure find themselves overwhelmed by the speed and power of the combination of Exeggutor and Leafeon/Sawsbuck. Teams that also use bulky setup, such as Vigoroth and Klang, also can be handled by Sun. Volbeat (a staple that should be on every Sun team ever) has access to Encore to shut down all of the bulky setup sweepers this tier has, and has access to Thunder Wave to neuter them as well. Teams are also relying more and more on slow hazard stack...which Lead Onix can Taunt and stop entirely. Also, the most popular hazard stack cores in PU at the moment are blown to pieces by Exeggutor...and with the sheer amount of offensive pressure Sun has, Sun can limit any strategy your opponent has. Sun has plenty of options to take on the variety of teams that PU has to offer, and is still a threat. Be careful how you play.
So how do I beat Sun Exeggutor?
Well, I mention that Exeggutor can be checked and countered, and that is 100% true! I will post examples under spoilers.
There is another way to really beat SunEgg though: Deny your opponent Stealth Rocks. If you look at a lot of the calculations for Exeggutor (like the ones above in a spoiler), Exeggutor relies almost entirely on Stealth Rocks to get a large portion of KOs in this tier. If Exeggutor is unable to KO your poke, then Exeggutor is already considerably weaker for it...not only does the Sun team lose a Sun turn, but you get to respond to the attack. No rocks = no KOs in a lot of cases.
Specially Defensive Vullaby beats Sun Exeggutor all day and all night, and can even handle switching in on to rocks. Vullaby even has the ability to switch in, take the AncientPower, watch Eggy get DEM STAT BOOSTS, and still be able to cripple Exeggutor with Foul Play if not KILL.
Defensive Misdreavus can also check by taking 1 hit and then smacking really hard with Shadow Ball or Foul Play. Neutral Nature max Sp. A Misdreavus using Shadow Ball even has a chance to OHKO with rocks.
Lickilicky can tank Timid variants just fine, but can struggle with Modest (but Protect Spam can stall out the Sun and let Licki live).
Grumpig can take a Solar Beam and Thunder Wave to cripple Exeggutor as well.
Tank Regice can also switch in on Stealth Rock and still have enough bulk to take any hit from Exeggutor and respond with the OHKO with Ice Beam.
Sp. Def Zweilous can also take anything SunEgg has to offer, can even Sleep Talk on the Sleep Powder, and then respond with Crunch. Thanks to 2xTheTap for pointing this out!
Note: These are just the ones I have found thus far. There are probably more.
ANY +SPEED NATURE SCARFER BASE 90 SPEED AND UP CAN OUTSPEED AND REVENGE KILL ALL VARIANTS OF SUNEGG. It should be noted that a certain amount of residual damage is probably needed for most, but not all.
If the SunEgg is missing HP Fire, then Klang can actually use SunEgg for setup fodder. That is sad...
Jolly Ninjask can also outspeed and kill all variants of SunEgg. A free U-Turn is hard to argue with.
Chlorophyll Jumpluff can return from obscurity to revenge kill SunEgg, but can only do about 85% max.
Murkrow can Thunder Wave SunEgg and possibly take 1 hit if holding Eviolite. Also has Sucker Punch to do about 2/3 to SunEgg. Murkrow can't take AncientPower though.
Edit: How did I forget Pawniard? Pawniard has the clean OHKO with Sucker Punch, 100% of the time with or without rocks. Just be careful of Sleep Powder, and know that HP Fire is always an OHKO.
Note: These are just examples and are just the ones I have found thus far. There are probably more.
The End
This is my longest forum post ever. Ugh.
The tl;dr is this: SunEgg is a fantastic addition to Sun and is able to make Sun viable again without breaking the tier in half.
Here is a replay I have against esteemed user/good friend ShuckleDeath:
This battle is a pretty decent example of what modern Sun looks like. ShuckleDeath had 3 stops to Exeggutor: Pawniard, Misdreavus, and Vullaby. I used Exeggutor to lure those out and weaken/KO them for my Leafeon to sweep later. Note that Exeggutor is indeed powerful, but is not so powerful that I didn't have to play it safe.
I have some more replays, but that one is the best one imo. Thanks for reading! I hope this post helps you better know what SunEgg and Sun has to offer, and what the tier has to offer SunEgg and Sun.
Disclaimer: My opinion on SunEgg's role in the metagame can change over time, and the metagame can change as well. This is merely an informed first impression.
You could also use SpDef Zweilous for a defensive answer to Egg in sun there, Al'Akir (especially given you can Sleep Talk on a predicted Sleep Powder). That post is huge! You probably don't have to write that much, but you've done people here a service by teaching them about sun generally speaking and how Exeggutor functions in it.
Ok the metagame has settled mostly and apparently bitching to magnemite wont do anything so I am going to suggest a linoone (quick) suspect. Although the tier shift may not immediately looked nice to linoone (introducing a memento and +6 linoone check in pawniard), it was actually super kind in making the metagame more offensive, which decreased the viability of certain checks, such as tangela, which only really fit on bulkier teams, and also checks like fast missy and klang which have a much nicer matchup vs bulkier teams. Offensive teams are very limited with checks as the conventional are limitted to pawniard, metang, kadabra, probopass, scarf gourgeist, gourg-xl, fast missy, klang, and tangela (assuming stealth rocks are up). Some have gotten worse and aren't overly easy to fit on a team, like i said earlier tangela, gourg-xl, missy, and klang have dropped in viability (and the former 2 dont fit well on offense), and gourgeist is otherwise not a very good scarfer (lack of immediate secondary stab means sawsbuck is usually better). This leaves pawniard, kadabra, metang, and probopass as the best 4 checks. The three steel types have to be at high health, so due to their lack of recovery they cannot perform their normal rolls as easily (setting up rocks for the metang/probo will often lead to them being weakened), and all 3 of them can be trapped and weakened by probopass. Kadabra has to avoid pursuit which isnt too hard as it often doesnt have too many other rolls, however a second set up sweeper puts huge pressure on it, and if not running foul play you dont actually KO linoone. These counters are also disregarding possible coverage moves like dig and gunk shot, which can put the opponent in a situation where they have an almost forced loss despite not playing nor teambuilding poorly. And before someone mentions that i was focussing on offensive teams, that is because offense is the best playstyle rn. So to some up this paragraph, a lot of linoones check have dropped in viability, and some of the better ones cannot even reliably stop it each game.
The biggest issues with linoone which has to be addressed is support required and setting. Firstly the support isn't that much and shouldn't be a reason to no suspect it, as the only support it has to have is memento, and since jumpluff is an a+ pokemon that isn't much of an issue. Magnet pull, pursuit support, and dual screens are other common support, and although they severely help they are not crucial. Also often the primary goal of a linoone team will be to cave a path for linoone to sweep, so having half a team to do this isn't a huge problem, when these team mates also provide other support and can be used in conjunction with other frail set up sweepers. As for setting up, there are very few mons which do KO it at -2, and the two fighting types do not want to switch in on jumpluff anyway, and jumpluff even has access to sleep powder. Pawniard is the biggest problem for memento, but as soon as you switch into a jumpluff attack (if rocks are up), pawniard is put in +6 espeed range, and also unboosted adamant pawniard is set up fodder for linoone. With dual screens there is a much easier time setting up, and it can even stop revenge killers (def tang giga drain does 20% max through ls).
The only replay I could find is this one: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-290379997 - mags team is pretty anti-linoone, and even though he misplayed misdreavus, it shows that running kadabra isn't enough of a check, as you can still get swept or linoone can still KO half your team
Otherwise there is a game i had against HJAD, which required one smart double (iirc he was very pressured by my murkrow) for me to trap and KO his klang, allowing my linoone to sweep
Overall linoone is too much for the standard team to build around, and too easy to sweep. I would personally want a quick suspect due to how stupid it is (my preshift linoone team is like 10-1, only losing to fake out persian..) as the non-linoone player has to make better plays just to not get swept by it. This may seem hasty but i strongly doubt the metagame will settle down to a more balanced one due to the ts's pressuring defensive cores/builds.
Ok the metagame has settled mostly and apparently bitching to magnemite wont do anything so I am going to suggest a linoone (quick) suspect. Although the tier shift may not immediately looked nice to linoone (introducing a memento and +6 linoone check in pawniard), it was actually super kind in making the metagame more offensive, which decreased the viability of certain checks, such as tangela, which only really fit on bulkier teams, and also checks like fast missy and klang which have a much nicer matchup vs bulkier teams. Offensive teams are very limited with checks as the conventional are limitted to pawniard, metang, kadabra, probopass, scarf gourgeist, gourg-xl, fast missy, klang, and tangela (assuming stealth rocks are up). Some have gotten worse and aren't overly easy to fit on a team, like i said earlier tangela, gourg-xl, missy, and klang have dropped in viability (and the former 2 dont fit well on offense), and gourgeist is otherwise not a very good scarfer (lack of immediate secondary stab means sawsbuck is usually better). This leaves pawniard, kadabra, metang, and probopass as the best 4 checks. The three steel types have to be at high health, so due to their lack of recovery they cannot perform their normal rolls as easily (setting up rocks for the metang/probo will often lead to them being weakened), and all 3 of them can be trapped and weakened by probopass. Kadabra has to avoid pursuit which isnt too hard as it often doesnt have too many other rolls, however a second set up sweeper puts huge pressure on it, and if not running foul play you dont actually KO linoone. These counters are also disregarding possible coverage moves like dig and gunk shot, which can put the opponent in a situation where they have an almost forced loss despite not playing nor teambuilding poorly. And before someone mentions that i was focussing on offensive teams, that is because offense is the best playstyle rn. So to some up this paragraph, a lot of linoones check have dropped in viability, and some of the better ones cannot even reliably stop it each game.
The biggest issues with linoone which has to be addressed is support required and setting. Firstly the support isn't that much and shouldn't be a reason to no suspect it, as the only support it has to have is memento, and since jumpluff is an a+ pokemon that isn't much of an issue. Magnet pull, pursuit support, and dual screens are other common support, and although they severely help they are not crucial. Also often the primary goal of a linoone team will be to cave a path for linoone to sweep, so having half a team to do this isn't a huge problem, when these team mates also provide other support and can be used in conjunction with other frail set up sweepers. As for setting up, there are very few mons which do KO it at -2, and the two fighting types do not want to switch in on jumpluff anyway, and jumpluff even has access to sleep powder. Pawniard is the biggest problem for memento, but as soon as you switch into a jumpluff attack (if rocks are up), pawniard is put in +6 espeed range, and also unboosted adamant pawniard is set up fodder for linoone. With dual screens there is a much easier time setting up, and it can even stop revenge killers (def tang giga drain does 20% max through ls).
The only replay I could find is this one: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-290379997 - mags team is pretty anti-linoone, and even though he misplayed misdreavus, it shows that running kadabra isn't enough of a check, as you can still get swept or linoone can still KO half your team
Otherwise there is a game i had against HJAD, which required one smart double (iirc he was very pressured by my murkrow) for me to trap and KO his klang, allowing my linoone to sweep
Overall linoone is too much for the standard team to build around, and too easy to sweep. I would personally want a quick suspect due to how stupid it is (my preshift linoone team is like 10-1, only losing to fake out persian..) as the non-linoone player has to make better plays just to not get swept by it. This may seem hasty but i strongly doubt the metagame will settle down to a more balanced one due to the ts's pressuring defensive cores/builds.
I agree, teams already having to prep for other common threats makes fitting a check to it/pressuring it effectively a huge burden on a builder and a player alike. Forcing a player to never be in with anything TOO passive makes it difficult to run an SR user that has much defensive capacity, as offensive presence doesn't really go hand in hand with most of our bulky setters. Also, its presence alone changes the overall tone of a match and Linoone has been shown to win games without ever using anything but unboosted E-Speed, as proven by the less used, yet still effective, CB set. I've been saying this for some time now and I'm glad it's being addressed.
I'm in 100% agreement with a Linoone suspect. With the meta currently leaning toward offensive builds, what you're really left with to beat Linoone are options like Pawniard, Kadabra, Metang, Probopass, Vullaby, Misdreavus, Klang, and occasionally, Gourgeist. And even then, teams built around Linoone have pretty simple ways of getting around these Pokemon.
For example, teams built with another set up sweeper in addition to Linoone can simply overwhelm offensive teams, which are dependent on Kadabra as their blanket check to set up spam. Megazard showed this in one of his youtube videos back when Barbaracle was still around, and while it is somewhat older content from a previous meta, the same general idea still applies: the take-home message from this video was that all it takes to overload a Kadabra and open up the way for one sweeper is another set up sweeper. Fraxure and Gorebyss are current examples of this that are able to bring out the opposing Kadabra and use up its Sash so that Linoone can sweep late-game, or vice versa. There is also the option of Pursuit-trapping Kadabra, which makes Pokemon like Metang ideal partners to Linoone as well.
Similarly, options like Zebstrika and Jumpluff pair well with Linoone because they are able to pivot on and break Kadabra's Sash via their superior Speed tier. Additionally, Jumpluff is used in conjunction with Linoone for its ability to provide set up opportunities via Memento and Sleep Powder, while Zebstrika beats fat defensive answers to Linoone, such as Gourgeist-Super, Tangela, and Steel types, while also pressuring Vullaby. Vullaby is a one-time check to Linoone, but needs to remain extremely healthy (can't lose more than 10% HP if SR is up) in order to avoid the OHKO from Linoone's +6 252+ Extreme Speed:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 220-261 (64.1 - 76%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
What's more, the Steel-types mentioned above are all trapped by Probopass, which is a common partner to Linoone for its ability to set Rocks (which breaks Sturdy / Sash users other than Kadabra). A slightly faster Probopass with Magnet Pull traps and removes, or at the very least, weakens these options to the point that Linoone can beat them with Shadow Claw or Seed Bomb. Opposing Probopass need to be at above 60% in order to take a Seed Bomb, but even then, Probopass will be unable to take Linoone down (even after a Belly Drum) unless Linoone has taken prior damage:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone: 141-166 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as previously stated, Zebstrika's Overheat pressures Pawniard (if healthy), Metang, and Klang, which when removed, opens up the way for Linoone.
With just Misdreavus remaining from the above list, Linoone can actually just change its EV spread or nature slightly to creep max Speed stall breaker Misdreavus so that it can continue its sweep by beating Missy with Shadow Claw. All it would take to do this would be a Jolly Nature and 136 Speed EVs to be faster than Max Speed Misdreavus (or Adamant and 240 Speed EVs to maximize Attack).
Along this same line of thought, Linoone can make other micro-changes to its set or spread to beat its would-be checks. For example, Gunk Shot OHKOes defensive Tangela after a Belly Drum, while Rock Smash or Dig can be used to beat the Steel-types that are often problematic to Linoone:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Earthquake (DIG) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 740-872 (243.4 - 286.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Rock Smash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 372-440 (122.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Earthquake (DIG) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I've put all this into practice on the ladder and have built a Linoone-centric team for the purpose of testing whether or not Linoone was broken, because after all, it hadn't been mentioned as a suspect-worthy candidate until now, despite being in PU for so long. But, as Anty has said, the meta's paradigm has shifted in such a way that offensive teams are much superior to defensively oriented ones, and as such, current-meta teams do not have the room to fit defensive Pokemon such as Tangela as easily as they could in the past.
Here's the sample Linoone team that I made recently so you can actually test on the ladder what I am talking about and why I think Linoone is broken if I haven't convinced you yet:
Probopass @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
Gorebyss @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Shell Smash
Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
The team is, as you guessed, based on setting up either SS Gorebyss or BD Linoone via Screens, Paralysis, Sleep, and Memento. You basically use Probopass to trap Steel types that beat Linoone (other Probopass, Klang, Metang, Pawniard), and to set up Rocks so that Sturdy or Sashed mons other than Kadabra don't live through Linoone / Gorebyss. Zebstrika is here for an Electric immunity, a check to Floatzel and Jumpluff (which would be big threats otherwise), to provide enough Speed to be able to pivot on Kadabra's Sash and break it, and to beat defensive answers to Linoone like Tangela, Klang, Gourgeist, etc. via Overheat. Meowstic is running enough Speed to OHKO Monferno with Psychic, which removes some of the offensive pressure that would keep Linoone from setting up Belly Drum. Double setup and 2 Pokemon faster than Kadabra make it so Kadabra is more likely to use up its Sash so either Gorebyss or Linoone can sweep late-game. Linoone can be ran faster with a different EV spread to accommodate for fast Stallbreaker Misdreavus, but doing so can detract from its bulk and is therefore optional. This team also has 1 Chlorophyll user (Jumpluff) and 1 Swift Swim user (Gorebyss), so that you have options to beat each weather archetype.
I guess I'll add to 2x's post by adding evidence that Linoone is broken. This morning, after making several PU teams, only for all of them to be completely demolished in testing, I decided to build, in theory, the most powerful team in the meta. Unsurprisingly, 2x's squad shares 4 common Pokémon with mine, and its not because I copyed him. It was complete chance, and it shows how much the core of Linoone + Meowstic + Gorebyss + Jumpluff is really impacting the meta at the moment. The screens + memento / sleep support essentially means that Linoone will get an oppurtuinity to settup. Even in the face of Ursaring Close Combats, it can tank and proceed to settup a Belly Drum if Reflect is up, which shows that, contrary to popular opinion, that Linoone isnt difficult to settup.
Almost all my games today up until my last game where I peaked at the top of the PU ladder had this kind of story to it. Settup Rocks, Settup Screens, Settup sweep 1 to weaken Linoone check, Settup with Linoone, Sweep. It was legitimately autopilot at times, knowing that I had won a match at team preview before even clicking a button is an incredible feeling to have, and a feeling only possible by meta defining, meta restricting Mon such as Linoone.
But, what really makes Linoone broken you may ask? Nothing much has changed since the last meta, and the PU meta before that, and the PU meta before that.
I'll tell you what. Linoone thrives of playing one (not limited to one though) archetype, and that archetype is offense. It absolutely loves tearing offense teams apart with +6 Espeeds, its extremely effective. As previously mentioned, it will find a settup oppurtuinity, thanks to screens / memento support. The problem is, 90% of this new PU meta with drops is offense. You are forced to run offense because otherwise it would be impossible to carry checks for EVERYTHING on a balance team. You would end up with a team too bulky for its own good and unable to win matches. This was the problem when I tryed to approach this New PU Meta originally. Offense dominates this meta, because its the most viable way of beating 95% of this meta. Linoone dominates offense, so you have an immediate matchup advantage vs the preferred archetype, and matchup advantage vs stuff like balance / stall because its impossible for them to account for so many threats in the PU metagame, allowing for you to break their walls down for a lategame clean.
This offensive meta plays into Linoone hand perfectly, its an extremely restricting Mon, only letting you pick a handful of counters and even then you need to play too conservatively with those counters in game to make Linoone invalid. And even then, it could be running a quirky coverage move like Dig or Rock Smash to bop your counter, and then what?
In every single one of these replays, Linoone either breaks or cleans, it almost always got a BD up, due to screens support, and made in roads for either other mons, or just itself for a nice and clean sweep.
Overall, I felt that Linoone may have deserved to stay in this tier based on my opinion a week or so ago. However, battling with other respected players and my experience today demonstrated to me that Linoone is going to dominate this meta, its going to be unhealthy, and I don't wanna have to run Gastly on offense to counter the fucker.
Hey dude you look new to Smogon so I'll point a small thing out. It's cool you voiced your opinion! You shouldn't be afraid to do that; But while you're making an argument for a suspect test or why something is broken I'd read the thread first to look over the guidelines. Also, a Pokemon's ability to do well in the tier that you'd be banning it to isn't an argument for a test; Bans aren't related to the viability of the Pokemon in the next tier above. Bans should be for the healthiness of this metagame. Welcome to Smogon!
PS: You insert images with the button that looks like a sun and a mountain and just put in the URL.
Thanks mate!
For a start I've been playing pokemon for around 10 years and showdown/smogon for 4... However I only joined the forums very recently
Also thanks for inserting pokemon :P
I'm relatively new to the banning process so thanks for explaining. Although there are many viable reasons to use floatzel leavanny and leafeon. You see them in pretty much every team and they can be really annoying (choiced/life orb leavanny anyone?) and with using them in NU they are a lot more balanced. Now that PU is an official tier, it needs to evolve into something better
Thanks again
So I feel I want to talk about some Pokemon, certain playstyles, and PU in general.
Pokemon.
Linoone
Linoone is the Pokemon I fear the most at team preview. Like others have pointed out it chews through teams with relative ease, and really makes me not only keep my checks healthy but really focus on how I can keep it from setting up in general. I have made some risky plays trying to keep both Linoone and Meowstic off the field, because I knew if they came in it would be an instant game over.
Now there is debate on rather it is broken and deserving of a suspect test. My opinion on this is quite frankly, yes it should be suspected. I completely agree with Anty, 2xTheTap and HJAD on this matter but why?
1.Do I feel it allows players of a lower skill level to easily beat players of a higher skill level?-
Yes, even if you play perfectly it is not hard for a player with a sub-par team, and skill level to get the win. we've all had it happen a player will get up screens and because linoone sets up on A LOT of Mons behind screens.
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone through Reflect: 214-253 (62.9 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone through Reflect: 183-216 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone through Light Screen: 186-220 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Relicanth Head Smash vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone through Reflect: 190-224 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone through Reflect: 209-246 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2. Do I feel hindered during teambuilding?-
Um Yes and no to be honest. I feel like some checks for Linoone just happen to fall into teambuilding, such as Vullaby, but Linoone is a Pokemon I always have to look at my team and adjust to, I have edited Pokemon into my teams, for the sole purpose of checking Linoone. Even then it is very hard from bringing these Pokemon out in battle, but I am absolutely forced to, and even than if screens are still up its not even a guaranteed revenge kill.
3. How easy is a revenge kill?-
Um I think we can all agree it is a very very hard thing to do, The only things that can are fast ghost types, Defensive Pokemon/Steel Types in good heath and other faster E-Speed users.
For these reasons, and reason others went into more detail on I feel it is time to finally give this Beast a suspect.
Monferno
Monferno is quickly becoming one of my favorite pokemon to use in the teir. It's stab is incredible(hitting Dark, Steel, NORMAL, Rock, Ice, Grass, and Bug super effectively the rest are neutral when dealing with non dual type Pokemon) It's priority comes in cluch for me in more games than i can count. But Monferno is more than a one-trick-pony, It has great coverage options, such as an Iron Fist boosted Thunder Punch, Poison Jab, Shadow Claw and my favorite U-turn. It Fits into so many teams in the current meta, as it counters Pawnaird and can revenge kill a lot of things such as Stoutland, Bouffalant, Rock Polish Regice, ScarfRotom, Zweilous, Metang, and so on. just a great Pokemon to use at the moment.
Exeggutor
So I posted early thought on what Eggy would do for PU. As it turns out I believe it did in fact change the Metagame to an extent with Mons such as Vullaby, and Zweilous becoming ever more common. At first the shock of Eggy lead to thought of possible suspect testing, but after only a short time of testing God Egg I realized that while in fact being one of the hardest hitters we've ever had its speed and defensive typing hold it back from being absolutely broken. We have plenty of Pokemon in the teir that check/counter it, that also bring more to teams than Checking Eggy. Some of these pokemon include, (counters) Vullaby and Zweilious (Checks) Ninjask, Monferno, Articuno, Dodrio, ect. So these flaws I really think hinder what Eggy could be on the PU teir but still a very strong Mon and a threat that always should be accounted for.
Pawnaird
We all feared the drop of Pawnaird, and it came back with a vengeance as it was coming back to PU with its main Counter, Poliwarth, being moved out of the teir a few Teir Shifts back. So is it unstoppable now? No, much to are relief other Pokemon such as Monferno, and Stunfisk have done a really good job in keeping Pawnaird in check. Pawnaird I feel, has been a heathy addition to the Metagame helping to keep pokemon such as Floatzel, Jumpluff, Dodrio, and Vigoroth in check, it also is a big boost to hazard Stack, Hyper Offense is in my opinion one of the best playstyle in PU at the moment, and Hazard stacking, Hyper Offense and Pawnaird go hand in hand. Defiant is with out a doubt one of the best ability's in the game, giving it a free Swords Dance when ever a stat is lowered, Meaning your opponent will always have to think twice before Defogging your precious hazards away.
Rotom-Frost
Rotom is another Pokemon that is really grabbing at my heart this Meta. Rotom just pairs so well with alot of the Pokemon being used right now, such as Monferno, Boffalant, Relicanth, and Linoone to name a few. Its Dual Stab is just unbelievably good hitting every Pokemon in the teir, except for the rare Seaking, for at least neutral damage. The momentum it provides with its STAB Volt Switch is so unarguably usefull, and if a ground type dare try switching in it will have to risk eating a STAB Blizzard. it just hits so many top treats for super effective damage that it is always very hard to pass this Pokemon up during teambuilding. It hits 12/33 of the S and A rank pokemon for super effective damage and ALL for at least neutral, it also can run great utility moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, making even easy switch in's afraid to come in.
Playstyles
Hazard Stack
Hazard Stack offense got a huge buff with he return of Pawnaird. Pawnairds Priority alone along with hazards already keep other fast pace, frail Pokemon in check that that alone is a big boon to use it, but when you combine Pawnaird with pokemon such as Roselia and Relicanth it covers alot of the threats making for easier teambuilding. I feel hazard stack will rise in use just because it is already such an easy and effective strategy, and with Offense dominating the meta hazards really help with breaking and cleaning other teams. PU is full of fast pokemon with average to poor offensive stats ( Zebstrika, Jumpluff, Electrode, Floatzel, ect.) that hazards can really help with the breaking and cleaning process that Hazard Stack teams will and continue to be a threat to look out for and a strategy to abuse.
Momentum(Volt-Turn)
Momentum teams are the teams i have been using the most lately, I'll just get that out of the way. Momentum is very effective right now in my opinion, Fast Momentum is really exploitable at the moment with the increase use of viable users, such as Rotom, Monferno, Ninjask, Jumpluff and Zebstika. Also slow Momentom with users such as Vullaby and Probopass being used right now. The draw back to Momentum is that it will bring up alot of 50-50s and you have to predict right, but if you get use to the feel of the playstyle it is one of the most effective in use. With RMT's from the likes of established and respected PU Players such as Dundies and Megazard you can see this is a playstyle being used, and I find i am not sure if others do, it just happens that my team ends up having a Momentum feel due to the effective pokemon being used in this meta.
linoone is literally free wins: the pokemon unless u run bullshit like vullaby on every team (in combination with at least one thing that doesn't die to gorebyss at +2/a fast scarfer) and we all know bulky playstyles are not viable at all in this meta so linoone has a field day vs 90% of everything and is the cancer that is killing the meta. it clearly fucks the meta up to such a degree that you either are immensely hindered in teambuilding or you just lose on team preview. thats not a good thing. honestly who even needs a suspect test we can all see this thing adds nothing positive to the meta while restricting teambuilding to such a degree that it just isn't fun, in addition to that i think we already know everything about linoone that we need to know about linoone so why bother suspecting, just let the council vote ban so we can move on to a playable meta asap or at least make it a quicksuspect.
I agree with the fact that Linoone is broken and I feel many others do as well. The ease at which it can set up is insane and while people say it requires a lot of support, it honestly doesn't lol. You can really just stick Linoone on some offensive team and with the help of something by the likes of Machoke with Knock Off to cripple things like Vullaby, Linoone does a great job of taking advantage of things like Zebstrika, spdef Roselia, and missed attacks. It sorta causes the meta to become somewhat similar to Carracosta and Barbaracle meta, where you can run your Kadabra and all to check it, but then you just add on a Gorebyss and what's stopping that once Linoone has broken Kadabra's sash and taken out all of the faster RKers? I think either a quickban or a council vote would suffice, as I really dont think we need a suspect to see that Linoone is broken.
After a few days of discussion, the council settled on having a quickvote on Linoone in the next few days.
The main reason this won't be directly open to the public is because its presence in the metagame right now is quite unhealthy, given there are very few options for reliable counterplay, and it is just a cheesy strat that has been abused a lot, especially in tournaments to get free wins against unprepared teams.
The problem is that preparing for Linoone is very difficult in the PU metagame because its main STAB move, Extreme Speed has +2 priority, meaning speed control isn't an effective method of revenge killing anymore, and the enormous power the ferret can gather in one turn also renders natural bulk inefficient as a defensive measure (apart from rare cases like Tangela and Vullaby, who can take the hit without a resistance). Its decent coverage options in Seed Bomb, Dig, and Shadow Claw let it break past the few Normal resists in the tier,which limits the number of reliable revenge killers to just Kadabra, whose Focus Sash is easily broken by pursuit-trappers like Metang, and Scarf Ghost-types that, since Haunter left, are less effective options in the metagame overall (Gourgeist-Small is the only answer and relies on Explosion to take out nearly max HP Linoone, the most common variant).
Its main flaw in the lack of setup opportunities is easily fixed by partnering Linoone with Memento users such as Jumpluff, which lets Linoone set up on nearly anything without Clear Body or Defiant. Moreover, pairing Linoone with dual screen users such as Meowstic allows Linoone to setup with ease, while simultaneously protecting it from being revenge killed.
Feel free to try and sway the council's opinion on the matter with posts in the thread.
And don't worry, non-council members will get a chance to directly contribute to tiering soon!
Linoone was a potential candidate for a suspect test already but we decided to wait for the tiering update to start a suspect test on it to see if the metagame changes would have affected it at all. It turned out that Linoone is actually way more threatening in the more offensive meta PU atm is (its not really gorebyss more than Exeggutor really that makes slow Pokemon quite bad) so yeah we went through with this. I will provide an extensive number of Linoone replays if someone wont beat me at that :)
I don't think it's arrogance just misinformation. I know the posts were deleted but it's a fair point nevertheless. This is an old rmt back from the costa and barb meta that still gets wins with the updated version in the seasonal (at least 2 this ongoing winner's bracket so far). Linoone has always been disgusting and complained about, but the recent shift to a way more offensive meta with things like eggy and bouff and gore capitalizing on defensive teams made it even worse. This in no way reflects the opinion of the "noob" masses, it's a council only suspect for a reason. I'll edit the seasonal replays in here in a bit actually no I won't we already have plenty of replays in the thread
I'm still torn on whether Linoone is broken or not, but it definitely deserves a suspect.
When you look at the advantages of Linoone, the primary one is its ability to easily sweep offensive teams in one turn. Offense is the dominant playstyle in PU, and many teams rely on simple offensive pressure to keep Linoone from setting up. Linoone is threatening even without ANY team support, as it can still set up on severasl scarfers, or weak pokemon like Zebstrika. However, most teams can keep a Linoone by itself in check. The situation becomes far more complicated when you add a Jumpluff with Memento and Sleep Powder to the mix, as at -2 -2 almost every offensive pokemon turns into setup bait. Jumpluff could be played around more easily if it only had Memento, meaning you could switch into a Taunt/Encore/Yawn user easily, but these pokemon can simply be slept. Lategame it is almost impossible to stop a Jumpluff + Linoone combination. Meowstic is another huge threat as screens last for a while and cannot be played around by the opponent as easily as Memento. Once screens are up, any team without Defog is under immense pressure to play carefully. While Meowstic can be somewhat of a momentum sap because of its inability to get safely out of the way without causing pokemon on its team to get damaged, this is only a minor concern when you can always sack something less important than Linoone. But Memento and Screens are not the only easy support Linoone can get to facilitate a sweep- Yawn is a hugely underrated move that forces the opponent into all kinds of risky plays. Yawn Relicanth is a great pokemon to use for advantage on Linoone teams, as you can Yawn to a switch-in (say Tangela), and then force them to switch out to avoid Linoone set-up, giving you a beautiful Head Smash score on a different pokemon.
Another major advantage that Linoone has nothing to do with an actual sweep, but the mental aspect it exerts on the battle. Because Linoone feeds on weak pokemon to set up, opponents may come under all sorts of pressure not to use these pokemon. For example, say you have a Gorebyss setup, and the only pokemon on your opponent's team that can stop it is a Scarf Rotom-F. The opponent can revenge kill it, but Scarf Rotom-F is weak enough to allow Linoone to set up on it, immediately putting them at another disadvantage. What if the opponent's only switch in to your Simisage is Zebstrika? Linoone on your team allows your Simisage to spam Grass STAB for free because Zebstrika can't switch in properly or even revenge kill it for fear of Linoone. Or for example, there only Exeggutor switch-in is Vullaby, which can be lured with Sleep Powder or Ancient Power. Another aspect of Linoone's mental advantage with Linoone is the term I like to call a Pseudo-Pursuit. Linoone basically "traps" certain low-health offensive pokemon that can be revenge-killed by extreme speed, because if they switch out, there's the chance that the Linoone user takes the opportunity to set up and just win. With Linoone, it's nearly always a win-win situation.
Now let's look at the aspects of counterplay to Linoone after it has set up. Tangela, Probopass, full-health Armaldo, full health Vullaby, max speed Timid Missy and other fast ghosts (this is a coin flip as Linoone could or could not run speed), Rocky Helmet users, Rough Skin Gabite, Avalugg, Kadabra, Purugly, full health Pawniard. Can most teams fit one of these pokemon on their teams? I think so, yes. That's a lot of pokemon. Balance/Semi-stall can easily run Tangela, Probo, Armaldo, Rocky Helmet users, or even several of the above. Hyper Offense, however, has far fewer choices in Purugly, Kadabra, or a fast ghost, but of course is only one playstyle. It is hard to say whether this is overcentralization or not. One on hand many of these can only revenge kill Linoone, not prevent it from getting any kills, but then again, the point of Linoone is to sweep the entire team. It is not so difficult for people to adapt to Linoone being the top threat in the meta, just as they would do for Roselia. In addition, there are a decent amount of pokemon that can learn underused moves like Encore, Roar, and Yawn, that can prevent Linoone from setting up in front of them even with screens or memento.
I laddered quite a bit yesterday before tilting. At first I was astonished at how easy it was to win with a Linoone-based team, then ladder started to counterteam Linoone a bunch with max health physdef Armaldo's, Taunt/Encore on every fast pokemon and the like, so it was difficult to gage anything.
This is a team entirely facilitated for a Linoone sweep. You have Taunt Grumpig to prevent status and wear down defensive mons, Yawn Relicanth to get up rocks and force even more set-up opportunities, Jumpluff of course, and then an Encore Machoke.
I used Scarf Diglett on this team as a secondary Memento user after Jumpluff. Jumpluff is no doubt the superior pokemon, but Diglett has one main advantage- you can choose which pokemon you want to memento on. For example, Jumpluff can be played around by the opponent by switching into the Mementos a pokemon like Encore Politoed or Pawniard. Diglett cannot- it traps whatever 4 attacks pokemon you can find, dies, and forces them to become set-up bait. This is huge, and I would like to see much more usage of Diglett by experienced users in this discussion because it is very relevant.
Overall, I am still undecided. Linoone is probably the most threatening set-up sweeper in this metagame, and clearly causes an unhealthy mindset in the battle . Then again, there are actually a decent amount of counterplay options available.
