np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[KurashiDragon]

@Mishra

Pretty much my thought process right there. The weather metagame is a joke really. It's boring and overcentralizing. I mean, if you think about it 10% of all the pokemon are supposed to be in ou. It's been that way for the last 4 generations. In some way they always wound up with 10% of the current number of pokemon in that generation. This gen there are 649 so we should have 64/65 pokemon in this ou. Instead we get 53. 11 less that what we were supposed to get. That's one piece of solid proof that 5th gen ou is just way to centralizing.

However, I've pretty much given up that ou will ever get better so I'm going down to uu where hopefully things are better when some broken pokes leave. There's no hope for ou to get any better.

That's my thought process anyway. I'm pretty sure some people who hated weather just up and gave up the same and either gave up playing the game completely or are still trying to adjust to the weather metagame. It's just to bad my 2 most favorite non-legendary pokemon are in ou. (Dragonite and Reuniclus.) However, they're not worth the aggrivation of battling in this pathetic weather metagame.

 

[Thorhammer]

@Mishra

Pretty much my thought process right there. The weather metagame is a joke really. It's boring and overcentralizing. I mean, if you think about it 10% of all the pokemon are supposed to be in ou. It's been that way for the last 4 generations. In some way they always wound up with 10% of the current number of pokemon in that generation. This gen there are 649 so we should have 64/65 pokemon in this ou. Instead we get 53. 11 less that what we were supposed to get. That's one piece of solid proof that 5th gen ou is just way to centralizing.

However, I've pretty much given up that ou will ever get better so I'm going down to uu where hopefully things are better when some broken pokes leave. There's no hope for ou to get any better.

That's my thought process anyway. I'm pretty sure some people who hated weather just up and gave up the same and either gave up playing the game completely or are still trying to adjust to the weather metagame. It's just to bad my 2 most favorite non-legendary pokemon are in ou. (Dragonite and Reuniclus.) However, they're not worth the aggrivation of battling in this pathetic weather metagame.

If there were 10,000 Pokemon, would it be reasonable to expect 1,000 Pokemon to be OU? No, it would not.

In each generation, the size and diversity of OU increases. it can't be expected to keep up with a permanent 10% for each new generation as the numbers get bigger and bigger. It's more diverse than any previous generation, and that's enough.

 

[KurashiDragon]

If there were 10,000 Pokemon, would it be reasonable to expect 1,000 Pokemon to be OU? No, it would not.

In each generation, the size and diversity of OU increases. it can't be expected to keep up with a permanent 10% for each new generation as the numbers get bigger and bigger. It's more diverse than any previous generation, and that's enough.

Last gen we had 48 ous and now we have 53. 1st gen we had 14 then we had 24 then 35 then 48. Each gen had gone up exponentially from the last. Most went up by 10 then the 3rd to 4th went up by 13. This gen we go up by 5. That's half as much when we should actually have 64 or near there. We should have 10-16 more. There's something very wrong with the ou metagame where we have half as much as we should be getting.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you on something I don't really care about anymore. This is pretty much my thought process when I saw the usage stats. How low ou is compared to the other gens is sickening but there's no point in me stating it anymore. The pro weather bans and I will likely just stick to uu and let you guys have your weather game.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

@Mishra

Pretty much my thought process right there. The weather metagame is a joke really. It's boring and overcentralizing. I mean, if you think about it 10% of all the pokemon are supposed to be in ou. It's been that way for the last 4 generations. In some way they always wound up with 10% of the current number of pokemon in that generation. This gen there are 649 so we should have 64/65 pokemon in this ou. Instead we get 53. 11 less that what we were supposed to get. That's one piece of solid proof that 5th gen ou is just way to centralizing.

However, I've pretty much given up that ou will ever get better so I'm going down to uu where hopefully things are better when some broken pokes leave. There's no hope for ou to get any better.

That's my thought process anyway. I'm pretty sure some people who hated weather just up and gave up the same and either gave up playing the game completely or are still trying to adjust to the weather metagame. It's just to bad my 2 most favorite non-legendary pokemon are in ou. (Dragonite and Reuniclus.) However, they're not worth the aggrivation of battling in this pathetic weather metagame.

Lol no. Gen I to III's OU wasn't defined by usage alone, but also by power (as we didn't have any usage stats back then); 4th Gen's OU cutoff was based on the first three Gen's OU-to-Pokédex ratio. B/W OU not having the same proportion means nothing; if anything, it means we should have a different OU cutoff.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Lol no. Gen I to III's OU wasn't defined by usage alone, but also by power (as we didn't have any usage stats back then); 4th Gen's OU cutoff was based on the first three Gen's OU-to-Pokédex ratio. B/W OU not having the same proportion means nothing; if anything, it means we should have a different OU cutoff.

1-3 didn't have usage. That was actually kinda lucky that they ended up with 10% of the metagame then :P. Anyway, now that I have that knowledge it makes my previous post concerning the 10% thing a bit of a false statement.

Lowering the OU cutoff won't actually solve anything except putting pokemon in the tier. It won't increase their usage stats at all. It'll just be banning them from a tier where they belong based on their stats. Instead we should be looking at what's causing such a low amount of pokemon in the first place. Even if my 10% argument was wrong it doesn't change the fact that between gens so many more pokemon are going into ou. Then when we get to 5th gen, barely anymore are. Am I really the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this picture?

 

[jas61292]

Lowering the OU cutoff won't actually solve anything except putting pokemon in the tier. It won't increase their usage stats at all. It'll just be banning them from a tier where they belong based on their stats. Instead we should be looking at what's causing such a low amount of pokemon in the first place. Even if my 10% argument was wrong it doesn't change the fact that between gens so many more pokemon are going into ou. Then when we get to 5th gen, barely anymore are. Am I really the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this picture?

But there isn't a low number of Pokemon. There is nothing wrong with the number of Pokemon in OU. As Thorhammer pointed out, the numbers can't just rise at a specific rate indefinitely. A metagame can't sustain itself if there are too many things to prepare for, so only the top one are used. If anything we should be expecting the number of OU Pokemon to plateau as the generations go on. When you really think about it, fact that it went up as much as it did should be seen as a success for variety.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I found it if anyone's interested.

1-3 didn't have usage. That was actually kinda lucky that they ended up with 10% of the metagame then :P. Anyway, now that I have that knowledge it makes my previous post concerning the 10% thing a bit of a false statement.

Lowering the OU cutoff won't actually solve anything except putting pokemon in the tier. It won't increase their usage stats at all. It'll just be banning them from a tier where they belong based on their stats. Instead we should be looking at what's causing such a low amount of pokemon in the first place. Even if my 10% argument was wrong it doesn't change the fact that between gens so many more pokemon are going into ou. Then when we get to 5th gen, barely anymore are. Am I really the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this picture?

Again, what made Gen IV have ~10% was exactly the other gens having roughly the same amount; back then, usage did define them (as people knew Luvdisc was no where near OU), but it was more subjective as we also had power. You say lowering the cutoff wouldn't solve the problem because it would only ban them from the lower tier, and it has been discussed already.

I've been briefly on mIRC lately and people there suggested T=20. Seemingly, the people there wanted around 50 OU Pokemon

The only reason this matters as far as I'm concerned is that UU may be considering some 15-30 less pokemon than it should be, but I think that besides the fact that it's too late, we're making great strides to finally fix UU, and that 50 may be a fine number anyway.

If we didn't want OU to have ~50 pokémon, we wouldn't have had. But we went with it. If you feel OU nowadays is too small, then it's the Gen IV cutoff to blame, not necessarily weather. Again, DPPt OU had a clearly defined (even if "confusing" for some) formula; the older gens' had nothing close to that. Who's to say RBY OU wouldn't be even smaller if we applied the current cutoff to it, or that BW OU wouldn't have like 70 OUs if we went with the old method? I'm looking at the ADV OU list and I'm sure I believed them all were OU, but not shit like Dusknoir in DPPt OU... Just like I see Chandelure, Whimsicott and Scrafty higher than Latias, Landorus, Xatu, Terrakion. If we were in the old method, I'd put Cloyster BL and Sigilyph OU, but what we have is exactly the opposite.

One could also argue Gen V is what we thought Gen IV would be, so we are in a turning point of sorts where "OU" will cease being comprised of the top 10% pokémon, but that's another matter...

EDIT -- I lost track of the post already, but X-Act said somewhere the standard pokémon usage function made a curve which made #n-1's usage be 96% of #n's usage until some point where it would vary slightly and aaahhh I forgot the details already BUT what matters is that you can't have 1000 pokémon and expect 100 of them will be OU using a 3.41% or whatever cutoff, because the usage stats wouldn't even add up. If you really want OU to be comprised of the top 10% pokémon, then you have to use another cutoff (taking only this month into account, it would be 2.60% so Espeon, Azumarill, Jolteon, Zapdos, Chansey, Zoroark, Togekiss, Sigilyph, Slowbro, Electivire, Donphan and Hitmontop would be OU), but not trying to tack on a generation-old one and hope you'll get the same proportion of pokémon, because the Gen IV OU cutoff was made for Gen IV.

 

[alphatron]

Oddly enough, didn't fourth gen UU have less viable pokemon than fourth gen OU?

From the games I've played, weather is pretty common in UU as well, and also more effective as well as easier to get away with. If you guys want to enjoy a weatherless metagame by going to UU, then it looks like you're jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan.

If anything, the usage statistics have disproved ALL claims of weather dominating the tier. Politoed isn't even in the top 10. Ninetales is...what? Number 26? Tyranitar5 is #1 in unrated BW, while #2 in rated. The top 10 is sand, not weather. Just sand. While politoed may be pretty high up, the abusers who accompany him aren't, aside from Rotom-W (who is used on sand teams MORE!)

The people who are saying, "Ban weather!" at this point may as well be saying, "Ban Tyranitar and sand!"

Edit: Then again, the arguement behind banning weather has nothing to do with weather being broken at all. The no weather crowd wants weather gone because they're sick and tired of playing against it every other match. While UU won't be much better in that regard, I guess I can understand this. Being tired of seeing the same thing is something we can all reason with. However, that by itself is no reason to ban something. If it was, then I would have stormed up the ladder simply to nominate Kevin Garett and ban him from posting teams in the RMT section ever again. If I see one more, "Solum's Core"...

Basically, when something is popular, you don't ban it. You play against it. And the arguements for banning weather beyond those reasons at this point are not ground shaking at all.

 

[Grimm70]

There is one or two month ago, I was thinking that Reuniclus should be Uber as many players because of his bulk and power. But now you are able to see many teams with Tyra, Ciza or Jirachi ( para + iron head) who are able to take care of him ( kill or a good amont of damage) and now Reuniclus is more absent than before because of those threat. ( I didn't take a look to statistic but I saw him less than before on the ladder.) That's why I don't think this thing is ready to go in the Uber Tiers even it is still a good threat for many team.

I still don't see what the Trick Room set does that any other Trick Room pokemon doesn't that makes it leagues ahead of other TR pokemon.

I am a full TR team player ( lol ) and it is not easy to take down a GOOD stall team. The fact is that Reuniclus has magic guard which helps too much with entry hazards and moves like Toxic or wow. He is a TR user who is able to survive to a Crunch Ttar and most of the biggest attack in the Game whith still 252 Ev's in SpAtk plus he is able to hold LO without losing HP = It is simple to place TR and to sweep with a good amont of damage. It is not the case with most of the other TR pokémon.

Jirachi is still one of the best counter to him because Scizor is one shot after 2 or 3 passage on stealth roc with focus blast and Tyra is OHKO whereas Jirachi haxx with para and regenerate himself.

 

[Thorhammer]

Last gen we had 48 ous and now we have 53. 1st gen we had 14 then we had 24 then 35 then 48. Each gen had gone up exponentially from the last. Most went up by 10 then the 3rd to 4th went up by 13. This gen we go up by 5. That's half as much when we should actually have 64 or near there. We should have 10-16 more. There's something very wrong with the ou metagame where we have half as much as we should be getting.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you on something I don't really care about anymore. This is pretty much my thought process when I saw the usage stats. How low ou is compared to the other gens is sickening but there's no point in me stating it anymore. The pro weather bans and I will likely just stick to uu and let you guys have your weather game.

53 is more than 48.

It's not lower, dammit. It's bigger. This is not a matter of opinion; there's nothing to argue. You're just wrong. If 100 Pokemon added in Gen 5 with no competitive usefulness hadn't been included, would you be complaining? On the contrary, if those Pokemon had been added in Gen 4, would you be complaining about Gen 4? Those Pokemon have nothing to do with OU; their existence has nothing to do with how diverse OU actually is.

 

[yee]

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon
Last gen we had 48 ous and now we have 53. 1st gen we had 14 then we had 24 then 35 then 48. Each gen had gone up exponentially from the last. Most went up by 10 then the 3rd to 4th went up by 13. This gen we go up by 5. That's half as much when we should actually have 64 or near there. We should have 10-16 more. There's something very wrong with the ou metagame where we have half as much as we should be getting.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you on something I don't really care about anymore. This is pretty much my thought process when I saw the usage stats. How low ou is compared to the other gens is sickening but there's no point in me stating it anymore. The pro weather bans and I will likely just stick to uu and let you guys have your weather game.

Are you serious? We have former Ubers in UU and you're going to assume NOTHING will get banned?! From a logical statistics standpoint you shouldn't be too suprised that OU's growth would slow by a generation shift. With factors like new typing combinations on pokemon and new abilities some pokemon that were previously OU are now below standard. In fact, take a look at the #1 used pokemon in the OU metagame. Imagine how pokemon dissapeared from OU because all of a sudden generation 5 introduced us with the bulky Grass/Steel.

 

[JSND]

All nattrei really did is making Bulky Water metagame trend gone

AND face it we HATE bulky water metagame trend. And from myself the big reason Ttar is used more is since theres many(including me) who dont want to abuse weather's power and want to use more standard team. Ttar is the best go to guy choice for this kind of team since it dont gave power to the very strong rain team.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Last gen we had 48 ous and now we have 53. 1st gen we had 14 then we had 24 then 35 then 48. Each gen had gone up exponentially from the last. Most went up by 10 then the 3rd to 4th went up by 13. This gen we go up by 5. That's half as much when we should actually have 64 or near there. We should have 10-16 more. There's something very wrong with the ou metagame where we have half as much as we should be getting.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you on something I don't really care about anymore. This is pretty much my thought process when I saw the usage stats. How low ou is compared to the other gens is sickening but there's no point in me stating it anymore. The pro weather bans and I will likely just stick to uu and let you guys have your weather game.

Do you know what exponentially means? Not one gen made the number of Pokemon used in OU increase exponentially. The number of Pokemon used in OU is limited by the number of Pokemon used in a team: six. Although diversity might increase, due to the decrease in percentage the number of Pokemon in OU will at one point stagnate.

Furthermore, there is no such thing a desired number or expected number, for the number of Pokemon used is not dependent on the total number of Pokemon, but on the number of viable Pokemon.

 

[shrang]

Well, if we compare the number of Pokemon added in this gen compared to the number of additional OUs, the metagame should be slightly more diverse...

 

[SJCrew]

If anything, the usage statistics have disproved ALL claims of weather dominating the tier.

You and the five or so other people in this thread who made this completely absurd claim don't know how to interpret stats.

Tyranitar: 20.8139%
Politoed: 10.2935%
Ninetales: 6.2658%
Hippowdon: 4.7193%
Total: 42.0925%

42% of all teams last April were weather-based. "Oh, that's not a lot. It could be worse." Keep in mind that these stats are not weighted and do not interpret data for what the average to top players are using in opposition to the new and inexperienced players. The people who haven't picked up on what works in Gen 5 OU. The generally worse players (with few exceptions) are stuck in the 58% where it's 4th gen mode and we're all running Lucario, Infernape, and Swampert, all of whom have received surprisingly high results, especially considering how they've done little to prove themselves particularly relevant in this metagame.

I have to admit I would have expected this to be a given with Missingno clocking in at #82 (aka, one or several spots missing on a team from players who didn't bother to check and make sure all of their Pokemon had moves before starting the battle), but it appears the anti-ban crowd is getting so desperate that they now refuse to acknowledge something that is completely obvious to anyone who's played a lick of OU.

Now let's regroup. The argument is no longer “the entire metagame is centralized around weather.” With all of the surprises the usage statistics have shown us last month, we're now well aware that the handful of relevant players who consistently dominate the ladder, as well as take part in these discussions do not make up the entirety of the OU metagame.


If we were to rephrase that and say, “The entirety of the competitive metagame has become centralized around weather,” we would be 100% correct. Weather effects are absolutely the crux of Gen 5 OU, and it has made itself evident through the many discussions we hold regarding it, to the ladder matches we've played where every other team has a Tyranitar or Politoed. It's too late to recede into denial and say we play in a perfectly balanced metagame where non-weather strategies are viable because it's not true and every single player who's laddered their way to the top will disagree with you. If you're not running weather, you're running anti-weather (whatever the fuck that is). If you're not running either, you're not winning.

If you guys want to enjoy a weatherless metagame by going to UU, then it looks like you're jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan.

This is also bullshit. UU is currently an unbalanced metagame, but not because of 'weather'. The only two popular weather playstyles are Hail and Sun. Hail usage is only a bi-product of balanced teams needing an easy out for handling Sun, and giving Kyurem a free 100% accuracy Blizzard. Sun gets Chlorophyll sweepers, Victini, and Charizard. Sand is a viable playstyle, but the only notable thing it gets is Stoutland, who isn't quite a sweeper, in the technical sense. I've faced just as many good teams running non-weather in UU as I have those with with it. There's no reason at all to assume "weather" as a collective is an issue in UU when just as many teams are winning with it as those without it

 

[alphatron]

I looked at the whole thing, and what I saw was that weather was less used less than 50% of the time. However, you are completely right in saying that we have not yet accounted for wieghted statistics, so I can't say with certainty that weather isn't the dominant playstyle.

I'll also have to disagree with your statement of, "If it's not weather, then it isn't winning." Haven't some of the voters made it to the high end of the ladder without playing weather at all? Correct me if I'm wrong.

As fgar as UU goes, my statements come from playing in the tier for only two days. All I fought were hail, sun, and zapdos on every team. However, this is just personal experience and three days of playing. So I'll just say you're right as I honestly can't argue for much.

You and I both know that there will always be a dominant strategy. Looping together sun offense, sand offense, rain offense, balanced rain, etc into one team archtype doesn't really seem fair to me.

 

[BKC]

I use the trick room one, I am fully ware of the calm mind Renunicles, and I still say its physical bulk is nothing to go crazy about.

Being able to take a super effective CB Crunch from Tyranitar isn't anything special at all!

 

[capefeather]

I have to admit I would have expected this to be a given with Missingno clocking in at #82 (aka, one or several spots missing on a team from players who didn't bother to check and make sure all of their Pokemon had moves before starting the battle), but it appears the anti-ban crowd is getting so desperate that they now refuse to acknowledge something that is completely obvious to anyone who's played a lick of OU.

Could you be more hypocritical? From here, it sounds like you're not only acting "desperate" enough to re-interpret usage stats in your favour (as you've basically accused your opponents of doing) but also making the bold claim that your opponents haven't "played a lick of OU". This kind of arrogance is what's preventing us from making needed changes to the process and/or the rating system and/or the site hierarchy that people want and could have been done long ago.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Being able to take a super effective CB Crunch from Tyranitar isn't anything special at all!

Actually only the calm mind version can take a CB Crunch from T-tar.

@The 10% thing.

I pretty much stopped talking about it yesterday when Mario explained it. (In such a way that made it nearly impossible to understand)

@alphaton

Imma put skill on the table with my argument of you being against the whole "If it isn't weather, it isn't winning thing." First off, don't get me wrong because I agree with you to some extent that you can succeed in the ou metagame with a non-weather team. However, how many people with limited skill do you think can actually do something like that with a non-weather team? I'll place myself as an example. Using a non-weather semi-stall team I managed to get to 1250. I was pretty acomplished with myself for having gotten so far considering that's the highest I've gotten. (I only really started getting competitive when 5th gen po came out) I was then soundly beaten by 3 weather teams in a row and forced back down into the 1100s.

I don't have as much skill with the metagame as many others so I'm about average. However, sense I got beaten by those weather teams I've never gotten back up to my 1250 score because facing a weather team with a non-weather team is extremely difficult. (Not impossible mind you. I got that 1250 score because I beat weather teams) To those people who had gotten up to the top with their non-weather teams, I congragulate them on being skilled enough to do so but how many average joes do you think can make it in the ladder to the point where they can actually vote? I would also like to know how many non-weather teams actually made it to the top sense this whole weather fiasco began.

 

[Nkululeko]

From here, it sounds like you're not only acting "desperate" enough to re-interpret usage stats in your favour (as you've basically accused your opponents of doing) but also making the bold claim that your opponents haven't "played a lick of OU". This kind of arrogance is what's preventing us from making needed changes to the process and/or the rating system and/or the site hierarchy that people want and could have been done long ago.

I'm gonna focus on the math part because the rest is none of my business, I just quoted it to keep it in context.

What's wrong with his calculations? They looked about right to me. Tyranitar was used in about 20% of matches(or is it teams) and Politoed clocked in at about 10%. If I'm interpreting those stats correctly that would mean almost 1 in three teams/matches were run around those two weather starters alone. That doesn't factor in the Hippo, Drought, Hail, weights,etc. But let's not get it twisted, I've already stated my stance on weather in OU and general but I'm asking what problem do you see with the calcs? They look fine in my biased opinion.

 

[SupremeDirt]

SJCrew, a lot of sand teams run both Tar and Hippo. So it's more somewhere between 37%-42%.

 

[November Blue]

No, that's not true. At best, all the Ubers can do is check each other, since they tend to be weak to each others' STAB moves, or just plain don't have the defenses to take the beating their fellow Uber buddies dish out. I mean, good luck countering Arceus and Mewtwo with anything in Ubers. You're probably going to lose a Pokemon every time they come out unless you predict extremely well. How does this apply to giratina? You can't compare it to arceus and mewtwo and speculate that it will destroy the OU metagame based on its uber status.

The only thing bringing more Ubers down would do would give us the delusion that the power scale is balanced because we're taking the lazy way out and trying to bag ourselves a catch-all check to everything. I don't think anyone who wants Giratina in OU seriously thinks it has any chance of being OU. They're just trying to rock the boat because of the stagnant discussion in this thread.

The bolded section. I disagree. If we bring down giratina and it settles into OU comfortably, that's not a delusion. Stop treating the 680BST ubers like a single overpowered entity that has to be locked away and forgotten. They can all be individualized and separated. Yes, arceus or kyogre are too powerful for OU. This has no bearing on the status of giratina because it's a wall. It may be a wall with STAB draco meteor, but it's not the same thing as rayquaza.

SJcrew, I'm aware that some people come to this thread to bitch and whine about their No. 1 most hated pokemon in the hope that everyone else will jump on the bandwagon, comfort them and all rally against the big bad evil broken uber pokemon terrorizing OU. I'm not one of these people. I don't think that anything should be banned from OU right now.

I'm not trying to rock the boat. I believe that certain pokemon in the uber tier have OU potential. If giratina could potentially stabilize OU and shut up the whiners because it's influence has a positive outcome, Why not? What if it does nothing? We test it, and it turns out to be about as useful as registeel. In this case, why should it be banished to ubers?

Everyone was up in arms about letting mew and deoxys-S into OU. Mew is UBER!!! It's too powerful for OU! It can baton pass anything! And where is mew now? UU. Deoxys-S too. Kyurem, the dragon type with twin base 130 offenses, draco meteor and an uber level 660 BST in in UU as well. How about the fabled V-Create Victini? UU too.

This is the uber banlist. Never, Ever question it.

Remember this quote everyone? There are some things you just can't theorymon. I'm saying we break the mold and suspect test an uber. None of you can say for certain that it will be bad, just like I can't say it will be good. The argument works both ways guys. And who says it's set in stone? We suspect it for a month or however long it goes for and if we don't like it, we kick it back to ubers.

And we do stop at giratina. Letting it onto OU isn't going to open any floodgates because it's not the same as all the offensive ubers. you can't say "well, we let an uber wall into OU and it was fine. We should be able to let a horrendously overpowered uber sweeper into OU, because it's an uber, just like the wall.

 

[capefeather]

One big problem is with interpreting a team containing Tyranitar as a "sand team". Depending on what you require a team to accomplish to be called a "weather team", this interpretation could be completely off, as Tyranitar is just an awesome Pokémon in general. Hell, shrang's argument hardly accounted for the team support brought about by sand at all. Another big problem is that the big thing being argued about is rain, whose usage now seems too low to warrant the attention that it had before the stats came out.

 

[BKC]

Actually only the calm mind version can take a CB Crunch from T-tar.

You were doubting the defense of the Calm Minder which is why I made that example.

@JT Swift: if Giratina was brought down to OU then the people who are opposed would bitch more and we'd have the Latias fiasco from gen 4 OU all over again. Giratina is not OU material.

 

[JSND]

One big problem is with interpreting a team containing Tyranitar as a "sand team". Depending on what you require a team to accomplish to be called a "weather team", this interpretation could be completely off, as Tyranitar is just an awesome Pokémon in general. Hell, shrang's argument hardly accounted for the team support brought about by sand at all. Another big problem is that the big thing being argued about is rain, whose usage now seems too low to warrant the attention that it had before the stats came out.

THIS time 9001.

This was why i said sand is more of supporting essence than playstyle. Unlike rain and sun which you directly abuse moves, some Ttar team is just a team with Ttar slapped yet most say its sand team even though i dont use any rock except for Tar itself, and no direct abuser.

Its like when you see Gen 4 team. A sand team there is just a general team that slap Ttar for its capability and we dont have sand abuser(since chompie is banned) except for Gliscor in OU tier. Theres still team like that like mine which dont abuse dory and friends. That is the biggest thing i have my mind on