np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[RotatingAtom]

Of course Gen 5 has more variety, goddamnit, they intruduced ~150 new
Pokémon, and some former Ubers were brought down to OU!

And yes, "fun to play" is subjective, but the characteristics of a desireable
Pokémon metagame that smogon created are not, or shouldn't be at least.

I'll say it again, in hopes of someone actually directly replying to me this time:
Playing OU at the moment is like playing Ubers. Balanced, but only because
~15 powerful Pokémon keep each other in check. Boring.

 

[haunter]

Cresselia can use flame orb, psycho shift and trick, two moves that giratina lacks, to deal with ttar and scizor. It can use reflect as well, and outspeeds both.

flame orb and psycho shift will only make her life shorter. Giratina doesn't need psycho shift so the fact that Cresslia gets it is quite irrelevant. I'll give you reflect but being able to set up screens is really Cresselia's only advantage over Giratina.

Lack of useful resistances? It resists psychic, fighting and ground and is immune to spikes.

Giratina is resistant to: water,fire,grass,electric,bug and poison and is immune to fighting and normal. That's quite impressive if you ask me.

Calm mind fixes it's lack of offensive power.

sadly it doesn't. 75 bse SpA is too low even with calm mind, not to mention that psychic is a terrible offensive typing. Giratina has great neutral coverage with just dragon pulse and hp fire\aura sphere.

I'm comparing the two because they're both extremely bulky physical walls. They ARE comparable.

As stated before, unlike Cresselia, Giratina has 100 Atk\SpA which means that it can also be played offensively. Go check its analysis, you'll see that Tina can also effectively run offensive sets.

Haunter, do you honestly believe that giratina is so bad that a suspect test would be a complete waste of time and upend the metagame?

Don't be so quick to judge the idea. (everyone, not directed at haunter.)

I don't know whether it's such a bad idea or not, but the arguments presented so far for its testing are not really persuading me atm.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

I don't understand everyone's push to shake things up. Ban Ferrothorn, Ban Tyranitar, Ban Sand Veil, Ban Garchomp, Ban Latios, Ban Deoxys-S, Bring down Giratina.

We have a perfectly balanced and diverse metagame as it is. Can't we just leave it alone?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I don't understand everyone's push to shake things up. Ban Ferrothorn, Ban Tyranitar, Ban Sand Veil, Ban Garchomp, Ban Latios, Ban Deoxys-S, Bring down Giratina.

We have a perfectly balanced and diverse metagame as it is. Can't we just leave it alone?

Well, there is UU now if people want a metagame where Pokemon move in and out every three months!! :D

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

We should probably drop down Rayquaza...Salamence isn't doing shit...so logically we should test Rayquaza. Let's test Rayquaza. It's fucking weak to SR, if it uses DM or Outrage, it's potentially set up bait, and it has that 4x Ice weakness. It's also really slow, it can't even outspeed Haxorous or Shaza so it should definitely be tested.

Deoxys-S also isn't bad, so let's try regular Deoxys again. No one even uses Deoxys-S to attack so they will use Deoxys to just set up hazards too.

I also want to test Ho-oh. It's not even as strong as Specs Charizard and Charizard is faster and is better for Sun teams. It's also 4x rock weak so SR will counter it and it has the same speed as Volcanora and people are fine with that so why not drop Ho-oh too?

If Giratina goes down I also want Lugia, because Giratina has problems with Dragons and Lugia can just take most of them thanks to awesome speed and stuff and it could be a good wall. It can't even OHKO Garchomp all it can do is like Reflect, and then Toxic, and then Dragon Tail or use Substitute or like Roost stall it, but it's weak as fuck if you ignore all those other moves.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

@Raikira (but other OU Giratina supporters as well) - so you're proposing a Giratina test if Ferrothorn isn't tested / banned. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe dropping "the" ultimate spinblocker to the metagame where a certain Grass/Steel spiker (which also happenes to have excellent synergy with Giratina) dominates the usage stats would at very least cause a massive shift to stall-based tactics?

Imagine Giratina running a Kyurem-esque set, and pair it with Ferrothorn. Something like...

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dragon Tail
- Will-O-Wisp / Hone Claws

+

Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball

I seriously can't think of anything that would counter this duo in the current OU. Spiking with Ferrothorn is incredibely easy as it is, but adding Giratina who craps at every avaliable spinner in OU is just plain mean. Trying to counter Giratina with Latios (the only Poke capable of outright OHKOing it) is not even an option because a) Giratina can scout your set with Protect, and if DM is coming, switch to Ferrothorn and add more Spikes, b) should Sub be up, another Sub and two Protects later it will have burned DM's PP, rendering Latios useless.

Sorry if this seems a bit chaotic but I simply cannot imagine Giratina in OU.

Sub-disable Gengar, SubDD Scrafty and Sazandora beat it. Basically anything bulky with a Sub beats it. I'd say Kyurem has a chance as long as it doesn't have a sub up. Sucks Shadow Tag Shandy isn't standard.

Also, GenV is way to offensive as a metagame to say one poke would make people switch to stall.

 

[Thorhammer]

Giratina would be an overpowering bulky sweeper if it were permitted. Ferrothorn is not.

That said, there might be merit in testing Rayquaza...

 

[Lucindril]

Giratina is enough of a pain in Ubers.

If you really want to bring it down, go ahead and test it. But don't start complaining again when you find you can't break through stall teams, and begin arguing that offense is no longer viable.

This happens all the time, actually; no matter what gets banned or brought down, there's always some unaccepting people that simply can't come to terms with the fact that something changed.

If you want to change something, then that's fine. If you don't want to deal with the consequences, that's another matter entirely.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

first of all i don't understand what you say...are you saying that with double team batton pass chains will become harder to beat or are you saying that clefable chandelure and blissey will be broken with these moves?


anyway does everyone in this thread undestastand and accept the fact that double team,minimize etc are not broken moves?
do we all understand that they were banned 'cause of uncompetitivenes(meaning introducing unecessary luck to the game)and not 'cause of brokeness?

what I meant was a basic example like a Ninjask doing Sub then DT for 2-3 turns before passing to a Mence and sweeping. or a Shadow Tag Chanedelure doing Minimize then proceeding to sweep or a Blissey using Mini, then sub, setting up Tox/WoW/TWave and Seismic tossing the target to death. these are examples of unfair and potentionally game breaking combinations which could be done with these 2 moves, which is why I'm behind this ban. but with Brightpowder and LI, it made everyone go "huh?"

a while back I made a topic about hax items like those 2, along with Quick Claw and the others. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82596 as you can see, the majority felt that all of these items had little to no effect on the metagame. yet I pop on the library computer yesterday and see 2 of them banned and I go, HUH????everyone was just talking about how they had no effect, and yet they got banned practically over night!!! and now you want to get rid of SV and SC, which if recall are the last evasion effecting techs left(in increase, anyway) not for brokeness, but becuse they set up hax combos.

the problem is that would open a huge gap to other borderline luck based techs-Static could be up to debate due to having a 30% chance of afflicting paralysis and going through typing and abilities. effect Spore as well, for the same reasons, but can also set up poison or sleep as well. Attract as well since it sets up SubTract combos that can shut down hard. Serene grace for Parflinch or guranteed stat drop, ParaFusion, Para Flinch itself, and so on, and so on. luck is a part of the game, that's a fact, and if we just try to get rid of all luck, it lobotamizes the entire game. you don't see People banning Peach players from using her Vegtable attack because she can pull out a Bomb-Omb in Smash bros., do you? if we ban SC and SV, it won't just start a slippery slope- it will be a bloody waterfall.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ok lets to totally frank here, almost every uber is balanced and has counters in Ubers, if you bring a few down then honestly OU might as well bring the whole thing down, only a few Ubers such are Kyorge and Arcues might even be considered broken in the OU sense. So logically, we should go and make Ubers standard and make OU, UU. But life isn't logical, if it was we should all be eating insects for there greater protein, and killing off retarded people for there uselessness. There is a factor of opinion in the Pokemon metagame and in what people want, yes you can limit it with logical and fair bans and tiering, but there are things people just don't want to see. Honestly I don't want to play in a metagame where Dialga is your choice steel type or where Mewtwo is the feared sweeper. Yes that right there is an opinion, but thats what a large amount of the Pokemon community believes. Some might point out that I make just as much sense as the has people that want legendaries to all be banned, but the diference is I am prefectly fine playing with normally strong pokemon, but when it comes to playing with the best of the best or the best, I don't want to be playing with those giants. Its the same reason why people play UU or NU, the biggest difernce though is, a lot more people play OU as opposed to Uber. That makes OU the standard metagame, and with that its gets a few special rights. Becuase if Ubers was ever made offical, then pokemon like Blissey, which some might say in an OU staple, would become Uber by useage, but no, we are the magority and we want our good strong pokemon, we just don't want the best. Now if Ferrothorn is deemed just as powerful defensively as Giratina, then you would ban it, not the other way around, thats a basic logical principle, just becuase a Square is a Rectagle, does not mean a rectangle can be square. Ferrothorn might be on tier with an Uber, that doesn't mean Giratina is on tier with OUs.

 

[XienZo]

Ok lets to totally frank here, almost every uber is balanced and has counters in Ubers, if you bring a few down then honestly OU might as well bring the whole thing down, only a few Ubers such are Kyorge and Arcues might even be considered broken in the OU sense. So logically, we should go and make Ubers standard and make OU, UU. But life isn't logical, if it was we should all be eating insects for there greater protein, and killing off retarded people for there uselessness.

I just want to point out that this was never completely unviable.

At the very beginning on Gen V, people were discussing that we should start off this way, and it was quite a significant movement as well, with a number of people in policy in favor of it as well.

So, as far as we know, if there had been just a few more people arguing for this, we COULD HAVE potentially had an OU like that sometime in Gen V.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I am pretty surte I you ask around, the normal player don't want this at all, just becuase someone doesn't post here does not mean they are non-existant, and that can clearly be shown by the amount of peoeple that play in OU as opposed to any other tier. If you want to make Ubers offical, then go and play in Ubers and get more people to play there, otherwise your making few people happy, while hurting the vast magority of people.

 

[ToastTyrant13]

The way I see it is, if we bring down certain things to OU, then we could spiral into a largely complex and sloppy mess in our hands. For instance "Let's test Rayquaza for OU. Oh, it belongs in OU? Well if it isn't broken, then Lugia / Ho-oh / whatever mustn't be broken either. Well if those arent' broken, a lot of other stuff mustn't be either."

I just can't bear to see an official metagame where people are spamming Rayquaza / Nattorei / Giratina / spinner / support / filler where they don't require much effort to break teams.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Ubers has 35 pokémon above the "Standard" cutoff, OU has 53.


Yeah no thanks, I don't want Giratina storming the OU fields tagging with Ferrothorn, neither do I want Ho-oh exploding shit with its Sun Sacred Fire. If I wanted, I'd play Ubers.

 

[Nkululeko]

Ubers has 35 pokémon above the "Standard" cutoff, OU has 53.


Yeah no thanks, I don't want Giratina storming the OU fields tagging with Ferrothorn, neither do I want Ho-oh exploding shit with its Sun Sacred Fire. If I wanted, I'd play Ubers.

Exactly, there's an Ubers tier for a reason. Bringing down Rayquaza, Lugia, ho-oh, and Giratina into OU would break the metagame. That's why they're in Ubers.

 

[ssbbm]

SD Chomp's Dragon Claw: [252 Jolly, +2]
37% - 43.3%
SD Chomp's Outrage:
54.9% - 64.8%

Gengar's Shadow Ball: [252 Timid]
44.1% - 52.5%

Tyranitar's Crunch/Persuit on Switching Girantina: [252 Adamant]
37% - 44.1%

Are this calcs supposed to show that Giratina should be OU? Taking at most 60% from Super Effective STAB Attacks coming from base 130 Attacks doesn't really seem OU lol...

 

[SJCrew]

Ok lets to totally frank here, almost every uber is balanced and has counters in Ubers

No, that's not true. At best, all the Ubers can do is check each other, since they tend to be weak to each others' STAB moves, or just plain don't have the defenses to take the beating their fellow Uber buddies dish out. I mean, good luck countering Arceus and Mewtwo with anything in Ubers. You're probably going to lose a Pokemon every time they come out unless you predict extremely well.

The only thing bringing more Ubers down would do would give us the delusion that the power scale is balanced because we're taking the lazy way out and trying to bag ourselves a catch-all check to everything. I don't think anyone who wants Giratina in OU seriously thinks it has any chance of being OU. They're just trying to rock the boat because of the stagnant discussion in this thread.

 

[Darusare]

whats funnier is that all the calcs for giratina beng brought down are from suspects themselves
(Chomp and T Tar)
I am honeslty tired of the same old stuff in OU
the only reason other things are getting significant usage is because people are testing things out
a lot of early metagame usage is from that
were not really early
since the metagame has been around for a little while now
but nothing is established
OU plays like Ubers
and it shouldnt
in my opinion

 

[alphatron]

Giratina would be an overpowering bulky sweeper if it were permitted. Ferrothorn is not.

That said, there might be merit in testing Rayquaza...

I don't think there's any merit in testing Rayquaza at all. If he didn't learn Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Extremespeed, then maybe I'd see your point.

 

[Lucindril]

If we brought down all the Ubers, then we'd just be playing what was essentially Ubers in the first place, but calling it OU instead. That wouldn't be achieving anything other than the loss of a tier.

 

[SupremeDirt]

whats funnier is that all the calcs for giratina beng brought down are from suspects themselves
(Chomp and T Tar)
I am honeslty tired of the same old stuff in OU
the only reason other things are getting significant usage is because people are testing things out
a lot of early metagame usage is from that
were not really early
since the metagame has been around for a little while now
but nothing is established
OU plays like Ubers
and it shouldnt
in my opinion

Last I checked nobody whose opinion matters has brought up Tyranitar, only scrubs like yourself with little to no understanding of competitive Pokémon.

Now if you can decisively prove that Tyranitar is overpowered, then maybe I'll take you seriously. As it stands, all you're doing is making me consider increasing the size of my ignore list.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

If we brought down all the Ubers, then we'd just be playing what was essentially Ubers in the first place, but calling it OU instead. That wouldn't be achieving anything other than the loss of a tier.

Not really. An ideal case scenario would've been no Pokemon needing to be banned, and having every single Pokemon in OU.

Although Ubers has a ladder and stuff, don't think of it as a playable metagame. Think of it as a banlist.

 

[Nkululeko]

Not really. An ideal case scenario would've been no Pokemon needing to be banned, and having every single Pokemon in OU.

Key word, ideal. But Gamefreak insured that there are pokemon who obviously outclass most pokemon and are only checked by other pokemon of that class.

Although Ubers has a ladder and stuff, don't think of it as a playable metagame. Think of it as a banlist.

Don't think of it as solely a banlist for OU, think of it as a tier.

 

[jas61292]

Don't think of it as solely a banlist for OU, think of it as a tier.

Ubers Players may think of it that way, but this thread is for OU suspect tests. As far as we are concerned here, all Ubers is is OU's ban list.

 

[Matthew]

Last I checked nobody whose opinion matters has brought up Tyranitar, only scrubs like yourself with little to no understanding of competitive Pokémon.

Now if you can decisively prove that Tyranitar is overpowered, then maybe I'll take you seriously. As it stands, all you're doing is making me consider increasing the size of my ignore list.

Alright I kinda have issue with this post, not because of what it's saying but how it's saying it. You shouldn't call someone a scrub because they feel that something is wrong with the metagame, they're entitled to think whatever they please about the metagame. Calling someone a 'scrub' or a 'noob' because you don't agree with what they're saying is just completely out of line. If you don't agree you should try to explain why you think they're wrong. Also saying "nobodies opinion who matters," is completely ridiculous. Many people who play 5th gen well are saying "ban all weather" (which includes Tyranitar, mind you). At a certain point you're just being rude.