Except that everything that gets speed boost is increased dramatically BY speed boost. All the pokemon that get it would be terrible without it. It was just a matter of time before they gave it to a good pokemon. lol
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Speed Boost Torchic aren't something you can find in the wild or be born with, either. You have to get him in the Entree Forest, as an event Pokémon.
Brightpowder and Lax Incense weren't banned on a whim, they existed only to make the game more reliant on luck (i.e. uncompetitive). There really was no reason to have them in the metagame, but there was reason to remove them. So, as you said, "Why not?"
Also, it is true that the only reason they were banned was because of people complaining about them, but isn't that true for every suspect?
Moody was only banned because it was broken on every one of the Pokemon that had it. As such, we can deduce that it was Moody that was broken, and not the individual Pokemon. We can't nerf individual Pokemon to keep them OU.
Also, before you say "Aldaron's proposal!" that was, as has been said many times, a special case, that does not apply to Speed Boost or Blaziken.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
If Sunkern and weedle got moody, they wouldn't be broken. Moody wasn't broken on everything that obtained it. Moody wasn't banned for being broken. Moody was banned because it removed all skill from the match. Both players could do nothing aside from put their fate into the hands of the RNG when Moody came into play aside from hope that your opponent did not obtain the boosts that they needed.
In any case, I'm not even arguing whether or not Moody breaks the game. So what if it was broken on all pokemon who currently have it?
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Why? This isn't a case of implementing a rule where Darkrai can't use Dark Void, or a rule where Lugia can't use Roost, rest, or Recover. In this case, a combination of moves didn't break the pokemon, an ability did! A newly introduced ability at that. If this is a community where we can select what to ban and what to keep, then what would be so bad about simply saying, "You can't use speed boost blaziken." and leaving it at that?
While I agree Speed Boost was the broken factor of Blaziken, it isn't a huge deal as Blaziken would likely still see no usage as it would be outclassed by Nape, you are entirely wrong in saying that Moody wasn't broken. Moody is incredibly broken, there is just such a large chance you will sweep (around 86%, in fact), and that's just using one single pokemon. Even in Ubers, Moody is incredibly powerful on something like Smeargle, as with a simple Assist Power, Sub+Protect, BP set you can sweep entire teams, OHKOing +6 SpD Kyogre and even things like Dialga with an UNSTAB Assist Power. While it may not have been broken on Remoraid, it was preferrable to outright banning all the pokes who were broken with it or banning the combo of Moody with each of those pokemon, which would set a very dangerous precedent of being able to customize pokemon to our liking to keep them OU. Banning specific moves on a pokemon is exactly the same as banning a specific ability on a pokemon, they have the exact same philosophy and the exact same goal. If you argue semantics with me on that point, I will ignore it, as it is not worth anybody's time to hear it.
I know. And that's what I'm saying. Aldaron's proposal had a clear background reasoning, which can't be applied to, in example, Sand Veil+Sandstream.If we follow the reasoning behind it, we won't try to ban anything other than, maybe, Hydration+Drizzle or Chlorophyll+Drought if they make a substantial number of pokémon broken and etcetera.
But I (finally...) see what you mean; it's best we have an official policy about it before discussing any other future bans.
Huhhh no, it's Blaziken being a bitch. It has the stats, it has the movepool, it has the ability, it has the cool-looking hairstyle; it's the whole package. Have you forgot that other three competitive pokémon have Speed Boost and yet are quite fine themselves? Or that other pokémon learn HJK and yet are not broken? Or that other pokémon have stats as good, if not better than Blaziken, and yet are not broken? Or that other pokémon can "kill everything in any weather and get away with it" and yet are not brok--oh wait that was only Blaziken. How can you say it's merely Speed Boost?
How is it different from saying Darkrai can't use Dark Void? You are arbitrarily picking an aspect of a Pokemon (it doesn't matter whether it is new or not) and claiming that it is the broken factor.
It's a matter of scale. Moody is broken on everything that learns Substitute and Protect, which is almost every Pokemon, NFEs included. Sure, it wouldn't be broken on Unown, but that's the exception.
By contrast, Speed Boost is only broken on a select few Pokemon: medium-speed Pokemon that hit hard and have diverse movepools. Even a lot of really good Pokemon like Skarmory or even Tyranitar wouldn't be broken with Speed Boost, and certainly no NFEs would be broken with Speed Boost.
Blaze has many checks
1.azumarill-self-explanatory
2.slowbro+dnite/mence/gyrados-slowbro counters SD, others counter mixed
3.gliscor in rain+gyrados/slowbro-same as above, but gliscor can protect to scout hp ice
4.toxic spikes-underlooked but efficient
5.2 priority abusers-blaze will wear itself down;2 priority moves are all it needs to finish it
6.dory/scarfchomp/rand+mence/nite/slowbro/gyrados-if it carries protect, it will lack a coverage move.
voltlos/erufunn-priority t-waves.
Blaziken isn't broken;If you can't carry 2 checks to it, don't rage about it.
1.azumarill-self-explanatory
2.slowbro+dnite/mence/gyrados-slowbro counters SD, others counter mixed
3.gliscor in rain+gyrados/slowbro-same as above, but gliscor can protect to scout hp ice
4.toxic spikes-underlooked but efficient
5.2 priority abusers-blaze will wear itself down;2 priority moves are all it needs to finish it
6.dory/scarfchomp/rand+mence/nite/slowbro/gyrados-if it carries protect, it will lack a coverage move.
voltlos/erufunn-priority t-waves.
Blaziken isn't broken;If you can't carry 2 checks to it, don't rage about it.
If I wasn't on my phone I'd write a much longer reply to YAYtears' post but for now I'll just say half of those need rain support and number 5 is ridiculous. Yes, two priority users will take it out after one of them and half your team is dead, is that what you're saying? Same for number 4 really. Blaziken is either forcing you to sac several team members, run rain and have a ninetales counter, and/or run two counters for separate sets, by your logic.
Skymin shouldn't be banned. I do think the combination of Skymin with the moves Seed Flare and Air Slash should be banned for the reasons that were stated. Think about it, without those moves, how good is Skymin?
We don't ban Pokemon + move/ability/item/whatever just to keep it OU. If one set is broken, all have got to go, that's just the way it is. Otherwise we would then be forced to allow severely gimped versions of every uber back into OU and tweaked versions of BL pokes back into UU and then not only is it a pain to determine what all needs to be done to a pokemon to keep it OU (and nothing DESERVES to be OU) but you introduce a ton of overly-complicated rules and tiers that just make the game a clusterfuck and unattractive to players new and old alike.
Well you only have to sac one priority abuser if you switch in at the right time. Disregard 4 if you wish, but if those counters aren't enough under the sun, just carry another priority abuser;its not like they are instantly koed. Technically sandstorm works too and it isn't hard to keep weather up against sun.
So if you lose a single priority user, you're screwed?
Also, have fun switching in T-tar/Hippo into +2 Blaziken.
Yeah, switching in at the right time is easier said than done. You pretty much have to sac something to get your priority in. Also, seeing three priority users on a team is rare and that's half your team formed to kill Blaze.
Wouldn't that be the esssence of overcentralizing, if you're being forced to carry more than 1 counter for Blaziken on every team?
And @ everybody talking about banning Pokemon + move/ability: If we're allowed to do that, why not just take away Kyogre's Drizzle and Water Spout and Thunder and call it OU?
And @ everybody talking about banning Pokemon + move/ability: If we're allowed to do that, why not just take away Kyogre's Drizzle and Water Spout and Thunder and call it OU?
Let's just give Groudon Slow Start and call it UU.
You can use dnite if you want easy switchung in as a priority user. Have conkeldurr to switch in on stone edges. Also I forgot to mention switching in a ghost to make it take half hp. CB spiritomb with shadow sneak seems promising.
EDIT:Also forgot to mention that t-wave dnite can fit any team. You will have dory/scarfchomp/scarfrand on a sand team, and gliscor can cover sandstorm threats outside of rain. Slowbro can check nattorei and check various sandstorm threats with its high defence. Salamence and dos can counter fighting types and can wallbreak. They aren't deadweight you know. They are easy fits on a team.
EDIT:Also forgot to mention that t-wave dnite can fit any team. You will have dory/scarfchomp/scarfrand on a sand team, and gliscor can cover sandstorm threats outside of rain. Slowbro can check nattorei and check various sandstorm threats with its high defence. Salamence and dos can counter fighting types and can wallbreak. They aren't deadweight you know. They are easy fits on a team.
Same problem. That's three checks just for Blaziken. And not great ones. Blaziken won't be HJKing any of your answers so spiritomb will struggle switching. Not to mention dragonite's limited switching due to sr, it can't take +2 flare blitzes in the sun for a while can it? Unlike Latios who has hard counters such as ttar and scizor who also deal with other threats like Reuniclus, Blaziken is making you use 3 priority abusers.
Goddamnit guys, overcentralization isn't considered a valid argument in Smogon since 2008 or so, stop bringing that up as if it made your arguments any better.
Yes, it's the Drizzler's fault for bringing up infinite rain to you, they have to take that possibility into account while team building.
I only mentioned 2, dnite and roob. Sure it has limited switching, but can blaze do the same with SR, spikes, possible sandstorm, and life orb? I wouldn't mention tomb because that would be put in another way to kill it: switching in ghosts on a HJK. And who said it wouldn't SD first thing?
And what options do teams that can't run both the bulkiest priority users, Dnite and Roob, have?
Blaziken won't be taking hazard damage more than once per game usually. Blaze also usually has sun behind it negating sandstorm, and it's only taking recoil from killing things.
1. Ill give you this but in the Sunlight Blaziken beats this too. Also Azumarril is fucking predictable and ill just go to my water resist and set up, hit your switch in hard.
2. o.k so we need Slowbro AND a SR weak pokemon just to counter Blaziken. Granted, they have recovery moves but its already over centralising to have 2 pokemon (ie 1/3rd of your team, JUST to counter Blaze. Oh yeah and if Blaziken carries SR then you risk taking a hit switching in.
3. Yeah o.k so back to the weather wars again. So you need Gliscor AND Politoad (ie rain) to stop Blaziken. Also "Gliscor can protect to scout HP Ice"? Big Woop. It means you have to switch out the moment it uses HP Ice. Also we are back to the whole centralissation problem again. Even if Blaziken does not have Sun on its Side, a few teams carry Rotom W which fucks up that core right there and again, its centralisation all over again.
4. If its a Sun team then they pack Venusaur. Even if its not a Sun team if your opponent has a Spinner or Balloon on Blaziken you are flat otta luck.
5. Yeah o.k, Priority moves. So... you actually have to attack right? something like, Arcanine uses ES and Blaziken uses HJK = Blaziken still alive and Blaziken just got a free kill.
6. You cannot switch in Dory on Blaziken, if it attacks straight up then you lose Dory. If Sun is up you lose Dory. Slowbro ill give you but that was regarded as the best check to Blaziken anyways. Mence, Nite and Gyarados all check it but lose to SE. Voltlos can paralyse it sure but, looking at this objectively, have 1 member of your 6 party team, and its sole purpose is to stay alive to Blaze comes out, paralyse it and then die doing do while Blaziken is still on 100%. Does'nt that seem like a waste?
O.k yes, a ghost switching into HJK will take off 50% and yes CB Spiritomb does beat it if it switchs into a HJK. However that goes into the whole prediction mind game where people argue "I predict X but he outpredicts you predicting X and does Y" etc etc. Yes Dragonite and conkeldurr carry Priority but that does not chance the fact that 1 of those pokemon has to die in order to hit Blaziken. And again you are using 1/3 of your team just to check 1 pokemon which can have consequences. For example you have to keep both Dragonite and conkeldurr alive the whole game otherwise Blaze sweeps you. This leaves your team open to other threats etc etc.
tl;dr
Blaziken has very few counters, yes we can all run Gyarados and Slowbro but runing 2 pokemon solely for Blaziken I find rather silly.
EDIT: yes I realise that overcentralisation is a rather bad argument. Merely making the point that Blaziken requires you carry specialised checks in order to defeat it
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