Drizzle isn't really that big a deal, having played against it extensively. Sandstorm is far more potent this generation, and sun is ridiculous when a chlorophyll sweeper gets that +2 boost in both attacking stats after a growth. A weather's potency relies on the amount it's used, and whether you yourself are running weather.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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no i was just trying to say how terrible of an argument was what dahliaskies said.he said that by banning drizzle,rain-stall will be even harder to use and justified it as a good thing to do by saying that it was already fucked up...
i will say it once again...you don't know what rain offense will do without the broken trio...nobody knows 'cause hardly anyone uses other rain sweepers except these 3...so give a chance to the other sweepers to prove what they are worth for and stop saying things that you don't even know if are true...
Sun seems quite easy to counter for me actually. Balloon Heatran walls most of the more common sweepers in Dream World, such as Urugamosu and Venusaur. Charizard is walled unless it has focus blast (which most of them do, sadly) and Blaziken is easily stopped by Physically Defensive Burungeru. I'm not extremely familiar with how sun is played, but those are the most potent sweepers I can think of off the top of my head.
Drizzle is on the chopping block first because, as you have pointed out, it's new. I would oppose a ban of Drizzle right now for the same reasons as you if I didn't believe that the outcome of banning individual broken weather abusers in an attempt to balance the weathers would lead to a similar outcome.
EDIT:
It's not about giving the other sweepers a chance, it's common sense. 5 man team that's very dependent on the 6th staying alive, or 6-man team that's not as dependent on the weather starter. Take your pick.
yes beacause it is an unneeded nerf...the metagame will be just fine if kingdra kabutops and ludicolo get banned...it's so simple...if you remove drizzle you remove rain stall and rain offense...if you remove said sweepers you only remove said sweepers and leave everything else as it is...
so in the first case it's almost the same as banning kabutops and ludicolo,as without drizzle,setting up rain is extremely difficult...so practical the only pokemon that gets banned from ou if you ban the three sweepers is kingdra,where if you ban drizzle kingdra stays(it can also be used very effectively outside rain as we all know)but everything else leaves ou also(ludicolo and kabutops) with the addition of a lot more pokes that have many uses in infinte rain...
so what do you prefer?having kingdra in ou?
or having 20 more pokes in ou and 2 or 3 more different strategies but not having kingdra in ou???
the reduction of the amount of weather would be nice for the metagame
and honestly in 4th gen SS was rampant because the users were useful
Hail was only used on dedicated teams
plus ss on its own doesnt have good effects really
great rock gets a spec def boost
but with physical fighting moves all over the place it really doesnt matter
and nearly half the metagame resists the damage
SS will be prevalent because ttar and hippodown are good stand alone
without a team based around them
it's not 5 man team depending to the inducer or a 6 man indepentant team...it's a 6 man team that is always dependant on each other...that's how you build a team!you can decide in which degree each member of your team will depend on the other members...if you like a team that can function well without the members of it being very dependant on each other go ahead just don't make a rain team...i don't see what's your problem...if you don't like 5 man team dependant to the last one just don't use a rain team...but if someone likes it i don't see why he cannot get to use it...
rain is a support characteristic like status,hazards,phazing moves etc...it is a part of the game...
i don't understand why u are justifying the ban of drizzle with the argument that it puts a lot of focus to the rain inducer...it's the choice of the team builder...if the team builder decides to make an offensive team he will have a cleaner that most of the times gets to do most of the work and is integral to the success of the team...the team is highly focused on that cleaner!is that bad???no.so i don't see why a team that depends a lot to a weather inducer sounds so wrong to you...
With a Rain team, it doesn't matter how you build your team. If you have something with Swift Swim, Hydration, or Dry Skin, it is going to take a bigger hit from having it's weather taken down than Randorosu or Garchomp is. And if this is the "Weather Generation" like everyone seems to be saying, a team less dependent on it's weather is always going to be better.
If you build a Rain team to not be as dependent on Drizzle, you might as well run a better Pokemon than Politoed. Sandstorm teams don't face this problem because (like Darusare pointed out), Tyranitar and Hippowdon aren't outclassed as individual Pokemon.
again i don't get what's your problem?if someone wants to run rain dance on it's pokes and be less rain dependant it's fine he can do it...but why if someone wants drizzle support he cannot have it?
Having just faced a Floatzel I can say that it will fairly easily replace Kabutops. Waterfall, ice Punch, Brick Break, Aqua Jet makes it really dangerous. Only beat it because i had already taken out Politoed. Also destorys Sand Teams.
Removing the swift swimmers kills rain offense, removing Drizzle does not. as for rain stall...who cares?
yay credit
btw
i think i coined the term weather gen
back on page 19?
idk
but anyway
you two need to stop being angry and fighting
current rain offense teams are very dependant on their politoed
sandstorm teams are less dependant on their sand
dory is a bit broken
but thats it really
as for rain
there are no grass or electric priority moves
so floatzel is a beast (yes i said it)
and kingdra isnt weak to that anyway
ludiocolo loses to scarfed U turners
and mach punch rapes kabutops
but to kill them all practically requires a specialized team
But it doesn't have as good attack, SD, or a secondary STAB, especially one as awesome as Stone Edge, which offers perfect coverage outside of Breloom, the grass and steel musketeers, and like Torterra
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
How is it that completely decimating a playstyle improves any game? In what way does an action like that create a balanced or diverse metagame?
If we were to ban Drizzle, Rain Offense, something that has now overbalanced the entire metagame because of it's brokeness, will disappear, creating a massive unpredictable shift in the metagame towards something that could quite possibly be far worse than Rain. I can easily foresee a strong unrelented push of Sand Teams in the wake of a Drizzle ban, simply for how naturally powerful they are, and how unreliant they are on the weather (bar Doryuuzu). At the same time, entirely eliminating the playstyle of Rain Offense seems a bit drastic considering we are trying to create a more diverse metagame. Considering how core that it is to the current meta, we have no idea what could possibly fill the hole it will leave. It could be filled with one thing or perhaps a great many things, but no predictable diversity will arise, so how can this be a goal with this ban? However, one thing does remain sure: banning the abusers keeps the control of the metagame in our hands. It keeps a check within the metagame that reins in the aforementioned seen or unforeseen threats so that they don't become overwhelming, and keeps the diversity level of the metagame status quo or better, whilst still balancing the metagame in one way or another, thus making it more balanced than the alternative option of simply banning Drizzle.
At least, it creates this sense of "more balance" for the immediate future. This is important to note, as we don't know how banning one thing over another in a situation like this will effect the entirety of this metagame. We can be sure that our desired result will happen, but we can't be sure about what the rest of the metagame would look like. And how can we? How can we be sure that the ban we chose was the better one? What tells us that banning Drizzle now creates a more diverse metagame later on, two, three, four more bans from now? What tells us that banning the abusers creates a more diverse metagame later on, two, three, four more bans from now? Frankly, I can't answer these questions myself, and I'd be impressed if anyone could. To be honest, I find this to be the fundamental flaw of the new system that we use. The metagame right now is so imblanced, that it can turn on a dime depending on which ban we implement, and could still be completely overcentralized. No option right now creates a "better" metagame outside the fact there is one less problem. Personally, I think either way we ban will lead to a superior metagame. But I'd still rather be sure-footed in our bans, so that we don't leave loose ends just lying around. So I say, for now, ban only what's broken, just as we have for generations previously. This has been our system for so long simply for the fact that it works.
come on try sometime to read before posting...i didn't support banning swift swim just kingdra,ludicolo and kabutops.and even without them rain offense is still pretty potent while swift swimmers without drizzle are not...at least not in ou where ninetales,tyranitar and hippowdon exist at almost every team...
I know what you said. The other SSers are for the most part pretty bad (outside of Gorebyss and Omastar), and most other abusers, besides Manaphy are far from broken (or even especially good)
Thats just ignorance.
Rain Stall isn't that useful, it is arguably worse than Sand Stall, and running stall in this meta...well, have fun with that. That's just me not wanting to hear an argument for Rain Stall that exists only as a refutation, and not as a legitimately useful strategy that isn't outclassed. (I understand it can be useful, but it is pretty niche and not worth the time in most cases)
i don't think that a lot of people will agree with you.some people have even claimed that drizzle will be broken even without the broken trio...this is because the other rain abusers like subpetaya empoleon,starmie,gyarados,gorebyss,omastar,toxicroak,floatzel,abagora and the list goes on are far from weak...
masterful has a point
the metagame is more offensive
it was said earlier that smogon is a place where majority rules
and honestly
who's the majority?
rain offense users or rain stall users?
This based off what experience? What knowledge of it? Weather stall in general is taking a backseat to it's weather offense.
It's just less appealing compared to current rain offense for obvious reasons.
It's silly. Masterful is making a point that something doesn't work in the offensive metagame he's trying to ban to begin with.
Empoleon, Starmie, and Gayar are not rain abusers. Having Drizzle on a team with them is just a wasted teamslot for a minor boost. I already said Gorebyss and Omastar were very good, but things like Toxicroak can be quickly stalled out by a Bulky Ghost
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