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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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No-one's said ban Hail.
No-one's seriously saying ban sand to write off Sand Stall. If Sand offense is broken, Dory and/or Landos and/or Chomp will end up banned instead. Sand Stall isn't broken.
What the general flow of the conversation is heading to is that Drizzle will be banned. Just Drizzle.
And, those reasons I keep listing, is why you can't just make a sun team and dominate with it, like you can with Rain and Sand. In fact, if you've only got Ninetails and 1 abuser of Sun, it's hardly a team based around the sun, it's more a team based around, say, a Venusaur sweep. That's the difference. You can't just slap Ninetails + 4 Random abusers + Counter to a threat on your team and win. You an do that with Sand and Rain.
Also, I've given in, and I'm using Rain to get to voting rights, so I can ban rain. I'll say that the ladder is dominated by two types of teams. Rain, and Sand. With occasional Sun. I only ever lose against Sand teams.
Oddly enough, so many people are running T-Spikes, that I might have to put something that can spin/absorb/reflect them on my team at this rate.
...After being haxed down from 1360 (would be 1380) to 1321 I think I'm gonna take a break...
There is a reason you should adapt to weather (note that a weather changer is not necessary, it just makes it easier), and that reason is that it's the game we play. I mean do we really want to ban as much as possible, instead of trying to make a good metagame out of what we already have? You seem to want to ban weather just because it's weather, not because it's really that broken (aside from Manaphy imo). Not banning weather (yet?) has nothing to do with inexperience, just with not wanting to ban everything threatening on sight.
At this point I'd like to thank people like idiotfrommars. Well aside from Manaphy; ban that thing.
Thank you for clearing that up. Also, if people would rather ban Doryuzu, Garchomp, and Landlos than ban sand, why is everyone okay with banning rain rather than Kingdra, Ludicolo, or Kabutops? It's obvious that they are the most popular and most powered up by the rain, but other than them, the other abusers aren't as threatening are they?
Having a weather changer in your team is automatically centralizing, and has next to no comparison to the Gen 4 Stealth Rock argument. In Gen 4 Stealth Rock was a great great tool for turning 2HKO's into 1HKO's, and 3HKO's into 2HKO's, which a lot of the metagame was affected by, especially things losing 25% to it. However, it didn't completely ruin speed tiers, it didn't boost your attacks and, most importantly, didn't really have a detrimental effect on the metagame. Are you seriously telling me this metagame is fun at all? It really isn't, it is one of the most centralized metagames i've seen ever (barring last period) and either having to constantly fight to prevent something switching in to set up its weather, or just automatically allowing it to have the benefits of the weather, is ridiculous. I would almost argue about banning Tyranitar and Hippowdon too, since they really achieve the same objective here now that Randorosu and Doryuuzu exist, but in reality i'm still not sure that Doryuuzu is broken. Randorosu on the other hand is a complete bitch to face and is just as bad as any one of the rain sweepers.
EDIT: Moe, its because there are a lot more threatening sweepers with rain, and you are delusional if you think Gorebyss, Huntail, Floatzel, Omastar, Manaphy, and a ton of Thunder users do not belong in that list.
Mostly because those pokemon are nowhere near broken on a team that only has 5 or 8 turns of water, and while each has many counters its the fact that you can infinitely switch between rain pokemon dealing hard damage to the counters until they go down trying to counter. An example is nattorei, who can counter many common swift swimmers... but then gets a toxicroak switched in and is forced out. Each time it switches back to take the next water hit it takes a huge boosted water hit (often with 30% to burn on toed) and each time the toxicroak counter switches in its the same deal. Not an issue for 5-8 turns normally, but infinitely? means that you need a weather user to help in most situations, which centralizes the game to those 5 pokemon.
Rain is more powerful than sand because for one sand only has 2 pokemon that really benefit from sand. Dory and randourso and tyranitar to a extent. In rain you have manaphy,kingdra,ludicolo,kabutops,gorybuss any other swift swim pokemon,any water type in general is going to get a big boost.Also fire type moves are useless.Naitorri can only take so many specs kingdra hydro pumps.Like i said earlier. The only reason i feel drizzle didnt get banned is because of the people that used it to vote in the first place,Not because the voters think its a not broken.
I see this so much, and completely agree. Whoever in this meta can protect their weather and destroy the other wins... which is fine except that there are only five weather pokemon, and it will probably make OU consist of about 20-25 pokemon who are weather starters, abusers, or counters.
That's true. If there was a way to stop the switching it might not be as bad, but until then it's apparent that it's too overwhelming.
I can see that as well. I've been reading the posts and have fought several rain teams, though never had much of a problem with them. Only reason I ever argued against drizzle being banned was because I was worried that with it gone, Garchomp, Landlos, and Doryuzu would then be tested while the Latis were still around. The one thing other than Manaphy I want gone are the latis. Even they get support due to the fact they can use Surf.
^^ fortunately it got a simple majority last time so thats all it needs this time. Odds are good no matter who votes xD I think the only real questions about rain being brought up and ACTUALLY considered at the moment involve the circumstances of the ban, such as other weather, and if it should be just the main abusers or the drizzle itself.
Sand and its abusers are much more in question i think, as there seems to be a pretty even split of people who think its balanced and those who don't. Personally I think its balanced in the current meta because of drizzle, and will cause problems soon when everyone has to run gliscor or their own leech for fighting sand.
I think something people seem to be excluding from the debate at this point is that in order to change/hard counter weather you do not need your own weather changer or Cloud 9/Trace Scarfer. Sorry to use you as the example, Dahlia, but in the case you mentioned, what if Nattorei had SS/Sunny Day? Every time it forced a weather sweeper like Kingdra out your opponent would have to bring in Politoed afterward to get Rain back, leaving you with a considerable advantage and time to maneuver.
Weather moves are invaluable in countering other weathers as they force the opponent to use 2 turns ofter their use to bring in the inuducer and switch back to an abuser. I'm not trying to say they are an end all counter to Rain for example, but from the last few pages most people seem to be disregading that sticking Hail or another weather move for example on something like Nattorei could really help them with Rain. Admittedly you may not want to have to use a moveslot, but it's certainly a more flexible option than having to use a teamslot. Also, though it may seem a waste against a lot of teams, something like Hail can give a few turns of residual damage to assist stall, Sun can boost your Dragon's Flamethrower and make Nattorei an OHKO, etc. They aren't utterly useless outside of countering other weathers, as Rapid Spin for instance is if the opponent does not use hazards.
@the above, another view is that Manaphy is having a large impact on the brokenness of Rain, and that it should be voted on and then Drizzle retested or left alone for a while for people to test for the sake of fairness.
One thing I do want to mention, for all the people complaining that rain shouldn't be gone... its still a viable strategy even without drizzle. Yes, you'll have to put some more thought into your team and play it well instead of looking at the formula-x cheat sheet that everyone else is using... but isn't that what makes a meta fun?
I've seen this kind of thing work wonders with any weather. A friend of mine ran a rain team with the three swift swimming sweepers (lol). As a precaution, I carried a poke with the move sandstorm that could take those powerful easily and his team fell apart. Not saying I have a valid argument, but carrying a weather move isn't THAT bad of an idea is it?
and last weather pokemon wins is always sand, due to bulky setup pokes and having 2 of them. i encountered a kabutops today, it didnt do much as i had parked my leafeon in the way and it didnt OHKO it, it swept a sand team as well, but i'm getting tired of facing the same generic stuff, i have dropped over 40 points to this stuff and hax its getting rather boring.
it appears leafeon is one of the few things that keep things like polytoad, ttar and hippo away as it is impossible fo it to come in on, especially if i have my ninetails sat there waiting.
and can we sort out the ranking system
there are over 11000 people with default 1000 points. this must have an effect on the variations
it appears leafeon is one of the few things that keep things like polytoad, ttar and hippo away as it is impossible fo it to come in on, especially if i have my ninetails sat there waiting.
and can we sort out the ranking system
there are over 11000 people with default 1000 points. this must have an effect on the variations
it's alright that you used my example ^^ I like where you were going... but the problem mostly comes up that this type of thing is needed really on every team, and not that it's not a decent strategy as a counter to a meta of the same 20 pokes. It also requires a specific counter for different weather, since obviously if you're in the rain you can't use rain to counter, but you could use rain to counter sun... so you have to have at least 2 slots on different defensive pokemon to counter it all well.
That's not the point though; the thing is, the exact same argument could apply to Doryuuzu and Randorosu; they're a lot more manageable outside of their respective weather, and could potentially be "stalled out" if Sandstorm was likewise on a 5-8 turn limit.
Also, I don't agree with the argument that rain-has-more-sweepers-so-it's-easier-just-to-ban-rain.
If rain has more broken sweepers, than the sweepers should still be banned. There shouldn't be a "critical point" where we go, "Oh, this weather has too many sweepers that are broken, so we're just going to ban the weather instead of the sweepers. Meanwhile, since another weather only has 2-3 broken sweepers, we're going to pull a double standard and only ban those sweepers."
I mean, really, if the sweepers are broken, ban them. Increasing the number of possible broken sweepers shouldn't suddenly shift our method of banning them.
So? I can voice my opinion, thoughts and make statements. You're posting in a god damn public thread. No need to act so rude.
Christ have you been playing the metagame? Rain is most definitely broken. Facing 3-5 sweepers outspeed most of the metagame and an additional STAB boost is broken. You probably rain is fine because:
1. You've been using Sand / Hail / Sun
2. You've been using Rain yourself
3. You haven't faced good rain teams yet.
(*Note: For those who think Rain is balanced, I beg of you: Make a team that DOESN'T utilize weather and tell me if you start consistently winning)
There is nothing wrong with my (and several others) opinion on rain being broken. Yes we hate playing against rain, but simply because it isn't fun and it limits team building. I would rather play against the previous suspects (minus inconsistent) than Rain.
Sigh... I've actually debated whether Rain would indeed still be viable in incredible depth many times, but I think before you joined in with the thread Dahlia. That's the problem with these huge threads I suppose, it's unreasonable to expect people to read them all unless they're involved from the start.
In any case, since it's only fair I'll explain again why I don't think Rain will be viable without Drizzle. Cast your mind back to Gen 4 OU, in which Rain was certainly possible in exactly the same conditions it would have if Drizzle were banned, but by no means common, which suggests that it was certainly not overpowering or the best possible strategy. My train of thought is this: In the 5th Gen meta there are now 2 incredible new SS abusers - Dory and Randorosu, as well as a Drought inducer and vastly improved Growth. If Drizzle were banned and Rain forced to use valuable turns, moveslots, and items to support its Rain Dancing, would it be able to keep up as a viable strategy? I believe not.
In any case, this isn't my justification for not banning Drizzle - just an explanation as to why I think Rain itself would sink into disuse is that were the case.
and this is why i'm still fenced about the drizzle ban... I can't decide which abusers are too good to leave and which could stay. I certainly would be all for getting rid of each auto weather, since the weathers are all still available through moves, something people seem to have forgotten... and the 5-8 turn dance, as you said, would fix not only the rain, but sand and any possible sun problems as well, leaving them viable, but not a necessity.
imho, all the pokes that use weather to boost are fine by themselves. Hell, thats why we keep using inducers to get rid of the weather to counter it right? cause once the weather is gone we can manage... its just that right now with semi-perma weather it comes down almost completely to who kills the other's invoker first. I wouldn't mind seeing a meta with more weather... I would mind seeing a meta that is narrowed down so small to weather inducers, abusers, and counters that normal pokemon have no place, and OU is like a mini uber spot before a huge BL/UU combo (all depending on how UU goes ofc).
Kingdra easily got rain dance off and could use it to sweep in the same game. Try not thinking of a team as a "rain team," and you'll overcome the gimmick and actually get a use for it. Switch in on shandera with your water type, use rain dance, and grab a few KOs mid game, then go back to a different strategy. This is how a normal set works well, sorry its not as perfectly broken as rain is now. My suggestion (if you hadn't seen) is that they should all be reduced to needing moves, not that one should while the others stay. If all of them switch the same, then all of them should be proportionately as viable to each other as they are now... just they won't dwarf out the rest of the meta.
I think the main problem is that people are going to object to a ban of T-tar and Hippo just because "they were ok last gen". Still, if we're going to go with the route of banning weather inducers, we're going to have to consider those two instead of stuff like Dory and Randorosu.
IMO, people are just targeting what's new (rain inducer and sand sweepers) rather than being consistent with targeting both rain and sand inducers or both rain and sand sweepers, so I feel it's a bit of a double standard here.
actually, neither will need to be banned as each received a dw ability ^^ so you can keep using that ttar, just not with sandstream. Heck, every poke that induces has another ability, so no actual pokes need to be banned once dw and standard are the same.
Well as many people have argued, you do not need to have an opposing weather in order to counter Rain, you merely need to make sure that at most only 1 or 2 members of your team have issues with it. There are counters for Rain which have been discussed in the thread earlier, however they are admittedly not too many and as such the non-weather teams are forced to centralise. However using a weather move is something I see as akin to using RS to get rid of SR if you want to run say Urugamosu - if you want to run something weak to Rain then it only makes sense to make sure your team can make the conditions for this poke potimal.
Also, I see the point that If you use Sun to counter Rain for example you could then need Rain to beat Sun, but Hail can be used to beat all the common offensive weathers, and if say your team has Dory and Randorosu counters then SS serves excellently to beat both Rain and Sun.
The only case you make for Rain being broken in this post is that there are 3-5 sweepers who are incredibly fast and powerful (and arguably have excellent coverage too). This is part of the reason I think testing Kingdra and the like may be a good idea and make Rain no longer unbalanced - many of the Rain abusers are much less powerful and fast than the "broken trio" as someone referred to them as and arguably would not make the playstyle overbearing.
But the effectiveness of things like Kingdra in non-permanent Rain should have little bearing on the suspect vote, because yes they may have functioned very well out of permarain on their own, but it is the brokenness of them in Drizzle that is in question - and Drizzle users tend to build a team around Rain due to giving up a slot for Politoed to that end.
But the problem with that suggestion is that it simply isn't fair to ban for instance Hail, which is in no means broken whatsoever and as long as any other permaweather exists will never be (most probably) in the same breath as Rain, simply for the sake of consistency.
Whats your case for rain not being broken? Since we are not explaining it well enough.
I used kingdra in this meta to counter sand to great effect. It was also the only rain user on my team. I had like 20 ppl ask me why I didn't have politoed... but once they saw that kingdra didn't normally need the support they understood. To pretend that you can't look at individual pokemon just because of the meta leaning toward weather inducers just avoids the point that I made. Weather can hold its own without being semi-perma, and shouldn't be looked at as just a single-minded strategy when it can also be used in many different (and more balanced/practical) ways than a rain-based team.
I do agree that hail is a non-issue, and wouldn't require a ban. I mostly aim to make people realize that the moves that cause weather shouldn't be used on teams solely to counter other people's inducers.... and thats where we're at now (for the few people who don't just put an inducer on their team).
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