np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Benlisted]

Just use Scizor. He can take at least one good Draco Meteor too, which is especially useful considering Ninetales attracts Dragon types like flies to a bright light.

Venusaur has STAB Sludge Bomb to OHKO most Dragons at +2, STAB Grass to kill Garchomp, and EQ for Heatran (probably not since Balloon is the shit now, but you can cut your losses and switch out on that one). There aren't really any common Scarfers faster than him either.

Shiftry has Dark Pulse, which OHKOs most Dragons at +2, Low Kick to OHKO Heatran at +2 (and Sazandora, the only Dragon Dark Pulse doesn't cover in OU), and Hidden Power Fire to OHKO anything those moves won't cover.

Exegguttor is really slow, but fast enough to be a sweeper; it learns Low Kick for Heatran and can put most Dragons to sleep or KO at +2 with HP Ice. It'd be a problem if Sleep Clause was activated and you opted for HP Fire instead, but then again...switch.

Venusaur, Doredia, Tangrowth, Victreebel, and Exeggutor have access to Sleep Powder. The only one I'd say is anywhere close to unviable is Doredia, simply because its movepool is awful and gets walled by something common no matter which HP it chooses. Butterfly Dance is really tempting, but you'd have to do some hardcore clearing before you can get a good sweep going.

Scizor is indeed an option, but if spinning is needed in the same slot Forry can do a much less offensive but good job.

Aye, all do have options to beat a lot of the aforementioned Dragons and Heatran, but none can beat all of them on the same set without sacrificing power or coverage. It's somewhat similar to rain in that matter in that the sweepers can be tailored to beat each other's counters, but I feel that the lack of sheer power as opposed to the Rain boost is what would make the Sun sweepers less broken in theory, but in any case that point is not here.

Also, a lot of the sweepers rely on Growth in order to get KOs on the pokes you mention, which requires the free turn, and admittedly Kabutops is the same and Kingdra like its DDs, but something as able as Specs Kingdra to come in and off the bat fire off immensely powerful attacks at great speed is a resource Sun lacks.

Also, confusingly and disappointingly, Exeggutor does not get Growth, so his use of Hp Ice at +2 to beat dragons is impossible, and is in fact one of the reasons why I would place him with Doreida as the only two of the Sleep Powder pokes you mention who are less viable.

Sleep Powder itself though is of course amazing except for its accuracy, but the problem with it is that it takes a slot otherwise better used for coverage or Growth.

 

[SlimMan]

^lol doesn't SJCrew want Latios gone?

Probably.

That last argument is so absurd and without backing I will not degrade myself to honor it with a response.

masterful: "Blaziken is faster and can get more power than Infernape. Therefore, it's better."
SlimMan: Slaking is faster and can get more power than Metagross. But it's not better."
masterful: "That's stupid. It uses my logic. But it's wrong because you're the one using it."

Secondly, it's cute how you think you can cite coverage moves that hit a poke and act as if that makes them useless. If that were so, any pokemon could be unbeatable.

I think it's cute how you believe that coverage has no implication on how well a pokemon can perform.

And it's REALLY adorable how you think being more powerful means that one pokemon is 100% better than another.

Yet there is this thing called speed and intelligent switching and this other thing called Tyranitar can easily obliterate Ninetales and no one on sun teams enjoys taking Stone Edges or Fire Blasts in conjunction.

Yet there is this thing called intelligent switching. It uses magic and fairy dust to prevent your Ulgamoth form taking a Stone Edge, or your Venusaur from taking a Fire Blast.

 

[YaM]

I'm just concerned about the testing of Drizzle and Manaphy, wouldn't it be better to test them separately in case one of them is broken by itself but both are broken together? That way, we can rule out needlessly banning both of them if only one of them is broken.

 

[alexwolf]

:


What you do in battles means nothing. You provide a specific situation favorable to your argument where you've sacrificed your weather inducer only to find that your opponent is carrying a weather move. That happens 5% of the time. What about the other 95% of the time where you haven't sacrificed your pokemon and your opponent wastes a turn changing the weather only to have the weather instantly changed back. This kind of tactic wasn't used last gen when perma sand was the only weather. Weather moves are a new gimmick designed specifically to counter rain. That is overcentralization.

a weather move isn't a 5% counter to weather teams...it is much higher 'cause ur opponent is not sure whether or not you have a pokemon carrying a weather move...and you can always put the weather move on something not so obvious like tentacruel or burungeru...and when a new tactic evolves to help manage one of the most threatening playstyle right now(rain)it is not a gimmick...it is something that is fully competitive and helps u keep the momentum in ur favor,a very important factor in pokemon.as in the past u got used to effectively manage stealth rock or the powerful dragon attacks that where new in the 4th generation metagame(with rapid spin or not sr weak pokes or taunt,and with steel types respectively)u will get used in running one weather move in one of your pokes...

 

[astrohawke]

First of all, you won't have any idea that I have Hail, or Sunny Day, or Sandstorm on any of the movesets I'm carrying. Why would you keep Politoed out of battle if you didn't see Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Ninetales on my roster?

You won't, because that's not how competitive Pokemon is played. It's quite easy to play verbal warfare in a Pokemon argument and just say you'll be keeping your Politoed alive all the time. Politoed is there to induce weather, and while it has other uses, it isn't there for much else. You'll be forced to sacrifice it mid battle, or you'll be mindgamed in to losing it, or it will be trapped, or die from residual damage via phazing. However you want to come to the conclusion that your Politoed is going to die, it will eventually. So don't hypothetically pretend you're going to keep your Politoed in your back pocket the whole match when you see no weather formers on the opponents team--you won't, because no one else does.

There will be moments when you will be forced to switch, and most intelligent players will send in their weather inducer seeing there is no threat of the weather changing as a sacrifice to keep their sweepers or walls healthy. In all likely hood, Politoed will be sent in and eventually will be taken out.

You should stop speaking for how everyone plays. The fact is, if you don't have a weather inducer, there won't even be a reason to bring my politoed back in. I will be sweeping your ass with my swift swim sweepers because you refuse to use hail to stop me until my politoed is dead. The whole deal with weather moves is that you thought they were a good counter to rain for normal teams and you're not showing that.

A more accurate example would be that it is similar to refrain from laying down Spikes and Toxic Spikes until their Rapid Spin user is gone, otherwise you'll simply be wasting turns. Of course this isn't as much of a concern due to Ghost types.

Your logic is also flawed because the Rapid Spin user would have every reason to use it before hand because the opponent wastes two turns to set up Stealth Rock again (the turn switching, and the turn to use Stealth Rock) while the Rapid Spin user also takes two turns to get rid of the entry hazards.

Weather on the other hand only needs a switch, so if the user doesn't want to continue to waste turns AND ruin the edge he has by keeping an option to remove weather in his back pocket a secret he has to wait for the Politoed to die. It's that simple.

Please don't use silly analogies.

No a more accurate example would be if there was a pokemon with an ability that lays SR on entry and you refuse to rapid spin until that pokemon is dead while your SR weak team is taking damage. Apparently I need to use literally direct comparisons to get the point across.

Yeah. Because people really had a problem with Wobbuffett in DPPt when it was unbanned during the suspect test. /sarcasm

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Wobbuffett was banned because shadow tag meant you couldn't actually counter it.

As for those examples I cited, ALL of them were overcentralized during their peak usage, and most if not all of them were topics of discussion for suspect testing among #stark members at some point in time. They shaped their metagames at that time because they were overcentralizing, and the metagame changed to manage that threat.

No they weren't. They were all used a lot at some point in the metagame but neither blissey nor scizor were ever seriously considered overcentralizing as they had plenty of counters. There were QQs like there usually are. Nothing more.

We're not discussing Borderline and Underused. We're discussing Uber and Overused. Thank you.

Yes, dismiss something because it clearly shows what you're saying isn't true. According to you, if an Uber is in a tier, everyone will abuse it. Why does it matter if the uber is in OU or in UU. The fact remains that you assume everyone needs to abuse the uber to win but the stats clearly show that they don't. If the usage rate of the counter is high, many people will opt not to use the uber because they know it's only going to get walled.

That's what is applying to rain. Sand counters rain. Everyone not using rain is using sand. People using rain aren't getting the same amount of wins as they climb higher up the ladder so they stop using it and switch to sand as well. Now you see more sand than rain. Doesn't mean rain is not overcentralizing or overpowered to begin with.

a weather move isn't a 5% counter to weather teams...it is much higher 'cause ur opponent is not sure whether or not you have a pokemon carrying a weather move...and you can always put the weather move on something not so obvious like tentacruel or burungeru...and when a new tactic evolves to help manage one of the most threatening playstyle right now(rain)it is not a gimmick...it is something that is fully competitive and helps u keep the momentum in ur favor,a very important factor in pokemon.as in the past u got used to effectively manage stealth rock or the powerful dragon attacks that where new in the 4th generation metagame(with rapid spin or not sr weak pokes or taunt,and with steel types respectively)u will get used in running one weather move in one of your pokes...

No...I won't because I will just run sand. Even if it is competitive, why would I do that when I can make a perfectly good sand team to counter rain so much easier. That's what rain does to the metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

No...I won't because I will just run sand. Even if it is competitive, why would I do that when I can make a perfectly good sand team to counter rain so much easier. That's what rain does to the metagame.

because there are other options you and everyone may want to try...and if you use a sand streamer your opponent instantly knows that you have a weather changer and will be much more careful with his weather inducer...there are perfectly viable ou non weather teams that use a weather move(mostly hail)and fare very good against weather(if you play smart with the weather move and don't reveal it too early)...not anyone likes running sand...

 

[astrohawke]

because there are other options you and everyone may want to try...and if you use a sand streamer your opponent instantly knows that you have a weather changer and will be much more careful with his weather inducer...there are perfectly viable ou non weather teams that use a weather move(mostly hail)and fare very good against weather(if you play smart with the weather move and don't reveal it too early)...not anyone likes running sand...

The problem is that there are already too many roles that need to be filled in a team if you want to keep a level playing field with your opponent. You need a phazer, a rapid spinner, a sleep absorber, a SRer/spiker and sometimes an anti-spinner. If given the option of giving up another pokemon/moveslot for a weather starter or to just use an auto weather starter, I think most people will choose the latter. Not to mention many OU pokemon already have 4 moveslot syndrome. It's not always easy finding a place for it.

I still think using one is gimmicky. If you're using it to stop sweeps, which is what you should be doing, then it's too easy for them to just bring toed back in. If you're hiding it until toed is dead, then it's not doing anything for your team for at least half the battle while you're getting swept.

 

[alexwolf]

The problem is that there are already too many roles that need to be filled in a team if you want to keep a level playing field with your opponent. You need a phazer, a rapid spinner, a sleep absorber, a SRer/spiker and sometimes an anti-spinner. If given the option of giving up another pokemon/moveslot for a weather starter or to just use an auto weather starter, I think most people will choose the latter. Not to mention many OU pokemon already have 4 moveslot syndrome. It's not always easy finding a place for it.

I still think using one is gimmicky. If you're using it to stop sweeps, which is what you should be doing, then it's too easy for them to just bring toed back in. If you're hiding it until toed is dead, then it's not doing anything for your team for at least half the battle while you're getting swept.

first of all all the prequisities that you are listing for a team are for stall or balance not for heavy offense.offensive teams usually don't have a phazer,nor a spinner,nor a sleep talker,nor a rapid spin blocker...and of course with 650 pokemons or something it's logical that you cannot counter everything.if you think all the roles that you listed above are more important than keeping the weather in your favor just use all of the above and let weather crush you...you have the option to use a weather move over something else(be it a status move,a phazing move or whatever) but by doing so means that the role that is accomplished by that move is more neded for your team instead of a weather move.

the second thing i want to say is that the opponent is not the only one that can put up some pressure on you i think...it's not like the opponent is always attacking and u are always defending...if u are doing it like this u are doing it wrong...you can force the opponent early or mid-game to death fodder something(and politoed is very likely to be the one as he has fullfilled his supporting role by setting up rain)...i am not going to argue anymore with you if a weather move is viable or not anymore 'cause you don't want to hear to what i say...just go and try it to see for yourself...i already did!!!

 

[astrohawke]

first of all all the prequisities that you are listing for a team are for stall or balance not for heavy offense.offensive teams usually don't have a phazer,nor a spinner,nor a sleep talker,nor a rapid spin blocker...and of course with 650 pokemons or something it's logical that you cannot counter everything.if you think all the roles that you listed above are more important than keeping the weather in your favor just use all of the above and let weather crush you...you have the option to use a weather move over something else(be it a status move,a phazing move or whatever) but by doing so means that the role that is accomplished by that move is more neded for your team instead of a weather move.

the second thing i want to say is that the opponent is not the only one that can put up some pressure on you i think...it's not like the opponent is always attacking and u are always defending...if u are doing it like this u are doing it wrong...you can force the opponent early or mid-game to death fodder something(and politoed is very likely to be the one as he has fullfilled his supporting role by setting up rain)...i am not going to argue anymore with you if a weather move is viable or not anymore 'cause you don't want to hear to what i say...just go and try it to see for yourself...i already did!!!

I don't know what rain teams you've been playing but that's exactly what rain HO does. It outspeeds everything you have and will continuosly attack you with rain boosted attacks one after the other, sweeper after sweeper. You're immediately put on the defensive until you can change the weather. non-weather HO teams are terrible again rain because then not only do you not outspeed rain and therefore can't revenge kill anything, you've also got a bunch of pokemon that generally can't take too many hits.

I'll admit, I haven't tried it so it may be as useful as you say but the way I play, I don't even have room for a spinner. I'd rather use a team that isn't really bothered by sr/spikes/toxic spikes and have that slot open for a coverage move or utility. I have, however, played again 1-2 people who have attempted your strategy against my rain team and it's definitely not even a bother to me. They really only surprise me once. After that, it's way too easy to predict when they will attempt to do it again and bring toed back in. Also, depending on who they have the move on and given the offensiveness of rain, they really don't have that many opportunities to actually switch that pokemon in to use the weather move.

 

[DahliaSky]

If I might put in my two cents here, people are all worried about drizzle... and I agree that not only is it too powerfull a combination to keep around, but also causing over-centralization. The way I see it though that's as good as gone with just needing a simple majority... what I'm really worried about is sandstorm. It was shown quite well that sandstorm in gen 4 was not overpowered, mainly due to the fact that the only boosts that came of it were evasion and +sdef. Evasion caused problems around garchomp because you needed to get that 1 hit or your counter would fail, and he was out... but the rest was never a huge issue as far as balance went. Now sand has completely changed, bringing the already pseudo-legend tyranitar onto more teams than his old pursuiting or dancing ever did, and the speed boost on pokemon that have such high damage output as Doryuzzu (135, a tie with the max attack of gen 4 ou). The main question isn't if these combinations are too hard to stop to be legal (once drizzle is gone it'll be near impossible unless you run... rain dance suicune?), the question is more which will get the boot, sandstream or the speed/power abusers? and should this be made now, or should we wait and see how drizzle's disappearance will effect it? That would obviously cause a third sustest, but then again does it matter if we were having a third one anyway? Up to you all, just food for thought.

 

[moe1216]

That's what worries me. Yeah Rain got those high speed high power pokes, but if it gets banned, I don't doubt Sand may get the suspect test as well because of Doryuzu and Landlos. I'm starting to worry if what's happening is that weather is going to be completely banned from the metagame. Lord I hope not.

 

[phalanx]

i still find sand worse then rain with my sunny day team, if i can trap the t-tar on turn 1 with my gallade then it is fine, same with toad. i can bring ninetails in when i can and venusaur or leafeon can happily remove the rest of the team (bar nattori but i got plenty of fire :P), but throw in the annoying hippo i have to keep ninetails up longer. and hippo can just roar away everything
i dont think we should get rid of drizzle without getting rid of sand, we can take a good guess from what we see already, that sand will be overpowered.

 

[moe1216]

Exactly, plus like you said Sand has two summoners, though if sand does go alongside rain, does that mean sun will be the dominant weather? If that's the case that may start overcentralization all over again.

 

[JSND]

Yeah tbh i find ninetales is the only one sucks. Otherwise, sun team is very very good.
Venusaur is Kingdra and Doryuuzu for rain and SS of the sun. With his plethora of annoying AND powerful moves, hes such a beast in the sun.

While most say manaphy the problem you must realize that in this gliscor everywhere metagame, manaphy is less used than last meta from what i see, something that seems unlogical. Also, Fightingtype usage have goes down compared to last period due to gliscor rising and finaly hail team saw a huge rising.
This metagame is the most interesting phase in gen 5 tbh

 

[alphatron]

As exeguttor doesn't get growth, and isn't extraordinarily bulky, I'm not too sure how far a mixed set would go. What would you run, Sword's Dance, Sleep Powder, and two attacks? His best special options are giga drain (unboosted at that), leaf storm, and lol solarbeam. Physical options? Zen Headbutt...nature power...low kick...Running him gets you revenged by Tyranitar. Actually, forget tyranitar. Eggs is so slow, even in sun...that at max speed he gets outsped by SCARFED BASE 90 POKEMON. With a boosting nature of course.

Exeguttor is never going to sweep, even in the sun. Unless your team was built poorly all around. Even when running something ridiculous like 252 attack EVs and a naive nature, eggy's +2 Zen Headbutt is barely a 2HKO on Blissey. BLISSEY lives through your +2 STAB attack. Low kick? His +2 Low kick deals roughly the same amount of damage thanks to Blissey's weight. Mind you, even with a life orb, blissey is living through the +2 Zen Headbutt or the +2 Low Kick. Have fun getting paralyzed and stalled out by the same Blissey Or have fun taking a sun boosted flamethrower from the same blissey His dual stab is walled by sazandora. When running sleep powder and low kick, he's walled by a plethora of other dragons, and when not running sword's dance, he's just plain weak. Without the +2 boost, low kick deals around 62.5% - 73.7% to an offensive heatran. This...isn't even a guarenteed KO with a full three layer of spikes! With a life orb, the same heatran takes 80.5% - 95.4% from the low kick. Still not an ohko on it's own, but stealth rock can actually help here. Nature Power isn't going to help much with balloon heatran running around everywhere. Additionally, nature power gets blocked by taunt and substitute of all things.

I mean no offense here, but this thing won't sweep. If you're still one of those people who switch Nattorei into Exeguttor in hopes to 4x resist its grass STAB, then yeah, it will probably sweep you. Otherwise, not a chance.

Now that I'm done with that rant, what other chlorophyll sweepers do we have left? Much like with Doryuzuu, shiftry gets checked by roopushin and is a bit too frail to actually get up a growth. Unlike Victreebel, he doesn't learn sleep powder, but I will not downplay his sweeping abilities once he manages to get the +2/+2 boost. Then again, Salamence can sweep teams with ease at +1. Victreebel is a bit harder to stop, but shares Shiftry's frailty and will probably end up running sleep powder to ensure it gets a growth up. Unlike shiftry, he can't handle Heatran, but this isn't a big deal as he's very hard to stop otherwise....so long as your team doesn't contain anything that resists both grass and fire, (such as all fire types sans magcargo and camerupt, all dragons sans kyuremu, garchomp, and flygon) as that is what he will usually end up running. You could always drop sleep powder for that third attack, but victree is not a pokemon who can force switches and nab a boost.

Tangrowth is great, but falls in the same boat as exeguttor due to speed issues. At first, you think his natural bulk will help avoid being revenged by the many things that still outrun him. Then you remember that you'll be seeing things like scarf sazandora, lati@s, starmie, etc.

Outside of Chlorophyll sweepers, what other sweepers might become impossible to handle in the sun? Blaziken?

 

[JSND]

JSND is trying to slap Gliscor to Sun team and call it a day. In theory it could work
Defensive Tales has some great stats, comparable to burungeru. It might work

 

[alphatron]

Well, SJ deleted the post so I can't exactly respond to it. But more or less, I'm fine with waiting to see how things play out in the future as far as sun is concerned. Right now, it's anything but broken.

 

[TLK]

If Ninetales didn't suck so bad, Sun would probably be a lot more used (some of the sun sweepers are just damn right scary [Venusaur, CS/CB Hihidaruma, Heatran]. But the SR weakness and the fact it's so badly beaten by the two most common weather inducers (Politoed and T-Tar) really hurts it.

 

[alphatron]

Politoed doesn't beat Ninetales at all. Hippodown and T-tar are more problematic.

 

[Darusare]

Politoed doesn't beat Ninetales at all. Hippodown and T-tar are more problematic.

he has a type advantage
the main complaint for drizzle and drought is that politoed isnt useful compared to t tar and hippodown
but both drought and drizzle give atk boosts
giving them an advantage in their weather
only t tar gets an advantage in the sand
but he can still get wrecked by politoed

 

[TLK]

Politoed doesn't beat Ninetales at all. Hippodown and T-tar are more problematic.

Don't see how Politoed doesn't beat Ninetales but Hippo does. Everything that Politoed might be worried about (like Specs Energy Ball, or Hypnosis or Toxic), would do either the same or more to Hippo.

 

[capefeather]

Dream World gets WAY too much special treatment. As far as any of us are concerned, the Dream World should be just another avenue for getting moves/abilities/whatever. In fact, I don't really see the difference between Route 18 and Dream World as far as competitive Pokémon goes.

Some hidden abilities are released onto the Small Forest / Open Sky / Shining Sea and through events. Some are not. All there is to it.

 

[JSND]

Don't see how Politoed doesn't beat Ninetales but Hippo does. Everything that Politoed might be worried about (like Specs Energy Ball, or Hypnosis or Toxic), would do either the same or more to Hippo.

Hypnosis and toxic maybe
But im not sure Energy ball specs OHKo him. (oh right even physically defensive Hippo 2HKO only doing 60 % damage at most)
Also, specs tales is too fragile unlike toed who can rely on bulky attacking
Did i mention Tales do the same damage to 84 HP poli ? full hp poli only get 50-58 % damage from specs energy.

EQ from physically bulky hippo 2HKO and has a chance to KO(although small)
and if its a lead, you basicaly ruin his ninetales.
Surf from poli OHKO outside sun to full HP tales.

Yup youre right

 

[Raikaria]

That's what worries me. Yeah Rain got those high speed high power pokes, but if it gets banned, I don't doubt Sand may get the suspect test as well because of Doryuzu and Landlos. I'm starting to worry if what's happening is that weather is going to be completely banned from the metagame. Lord I hope not.

It's highly unlikly this will happen.

Unlike Sand, Rain only has offense. Sand offense would only be broken due to two pokemon, so it's highly possible that instead of writing off Sand-Stall, Dory and Landos would be banned instead, Sand Stream would stay.

Sand would still exist to counter Sun as well, not to mention Sun has more than enough flaws to exploit. Grass and Fire types generally are not excellent at Ice Beaming flying Dragons, who will then proceed to Fire attack/Ground Attack/ DM them to death.

And, if weather is too overcentralising, and overpowers the whole metagame, then it will be banned. Bear in mind, an ideal metagame is balanced and enjoyable, people can use different playstyles and suceed. I see no reason for you claiming 'Lord I hope not' for weather being banned.

As it is, everyone has to run weather. That's not enjoyable. Even if you don't run a weather team, you'll have to run VERY bulky offense, with a weather shifter. That's not enjoyable, being forced to stick Hail on random pokemon.

Drizzle at least needs to go, as it makes most other playstyles less viable, except other weather. Before Drizzletoad, Sand was manageable, but Dory might end up banned. After that, I do see a rather balanced metagame, weather-wise. There might be some issues still, with non-weather based pokemon, but the metagame will at least be stable, and other playstyles other than weather will actually be viable.

 

[Ulevo]

You should stop speaking for how everyone plays. The fact is, if you don't have a weather inducer, there won't even be a reason to bring my politoed back in. I will be sweeping your ass with my swift swim sweepers because you refuse to use hail to stop me until my politoed is dead. The whole deal with weather moves is that you thought they were a good counter to rain for normal teams and you're not showing that.

I actually did, you're simply in denial. You're not going to keep your Politoed safe when you have no more need to secure you're weather. I'm speaking for how most people play because I've seen this happen in practice. I don't need to hear your judgement calls on how it will play out because A) I've seen it myself and B) it's common sense. I'm finished with this argument. Agree to disagree if you like.

No a more accurate example would be if there was a pokemon with an ability that lays SR on entry and you refuse to rapid spin until that pokemon is dead while your SR weak team is taking damage. Apparently I need to use literally direct comparisons to get the point across.

This example isn't leading anywhere so I'm going to drop this, too.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Wobbuffett was banned because shadow tag meant you couldn't actually counter it.

My point was that no one used Wobuffett at the time of it's transfer from OU to Uber. Check the statistics. Because its usage was so low, there was no need to prepare for it on teams. Or, to be more to the point, it wasn't over centralizing. But because that's only a possible (but an inevitable) product of a broken Pokemon, it was banned anyway.

No they weren't. They were all used a lot at some point in the metagame but neither blissey nor scizor were ever seriously considered overcentralizing as they had plenty of counters. There were QQs like there usually are. Nothing more.

I can't tell if you simply weren't around early DP and DPPt, or if you were just oblivious. There were plenty of people that wanted Blissey out, and while Scizor wasn't as disliked, there were plenty of cries about him overcentralizing the metagame, too. If you're just going to deny this, I'm not really going to continue to debate over it.

Yes, dismiss something because it clearly shows what you're saying isn't true. According to you, if an Uber is in a tier, everyone will abuse it. Why does it matter if the uber is in OU or in UU. The fact remains that you assume everyone needs to abuse the uber to win but the stats clearly show that they don't. If the usage rate of the counter is high, many people will opt not to use the uber because they know it's only going to get walled.

Actually I have zero experience in UU, so rather than attempt to use it as a prime example for a debate, I'm going to avoid expressing opinions on territory I'm not familiar with.

I could use the analogy that Honchcrow dropping in to UU is the same as Kyogre or Arceus or Mewtwo dropping in to OU, but I simply wouldn't know that. I've never played that tier.

So while you're trying to discredit me for the sake of your argument, I think I'll refrain from taking your bait, sir.

That's what is applying to rain. Sand counters rain. Everyone not using rain is using sand. People using rain aren't getting the same amount of wins as they climb higher up the ladder so they stop using it and switch to sand as well. Now you see more sand than rain. Doesn't mean rain is not overcentralizing or overpowered to begin with.

So let me see if I understand; by your statement, sand is actually the dominating force of the metagame, because it is surpassing rain at the top of the ladder, but it's because of rain that this is happening. And you want to impose bans to eliminate rain?

I'm done arguing with you. I think it's obvious why.