np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[PttP]

Fine, let's just make it so that the rest of your pokemon can't be Dragon/Ground/Ice resists.

But anyhow, why not the Ho-oh with only SR-weak pokes and no Rapid Spin? It could probably be handled decently, and it's not complicated either; you just choose between Ho-oh and SR-neutral/resist pokes.

no offense but this is just stupid

gonna use the old phrase and say it will cause a slippery slope which will basically result in "hay we hav hoho in ou wit dese condisions can we hac arceus too??????????"

besides that meta just sounds 30x worse than this one

 

[franky]

just a question but whats up with all the fucking politoed/birdgenie/manaphy/kingdra/natt/toxicroak teams

bijiron might be in the place of one of those pokes but seriously ive seen like 7 different users using the same exact team

cause its good also can we ban drizzle honestly

 

[ensoriki]

...What if Politoed only had Drizzle since Advance? What makes Lugia's recovering abilities more inherent than Politoed's weather summoning this generation? And more things abuse Rain than Swift Swim, so why propose a Clause only for the ability?

check previous post.
And the other things manipulating Rain haven't been under scrutiny other than what Manaphy?
Isolating the issue instead of giving additional reasons, would by why it's "only" for the ability.

I still find the use of a slippery slope argument rather troubling when we've already used the Soul Dew clause where we could've done similar things and said Ho-oh is OU if it's held item is lagging tail.

 

[Benlisted]

But what is an "inherent function"? What if Lugia never got a recovery move until Gen 5? Is it an "inherent function" then? What if Politoed had Drizzle ever since Advance? What if Drizzle was its only ability?

I don't think you can pose questions like what if something else got this in Gen 5 only - the fact is that we have to look at the meta now and deal with that as it is.

@ Ensoriki, I think the difference with that is that with banning an ability on a pokemon is restricting an aspect of it, I don't think adding some aspect to a pokemon instead by forcing it to use an item like lagging would be considered by most to be a logical extension of such ban.

 

[masterful]

cause its good also can we ban drizzle honestly

If the same people vote this time again, then it will be banned, thank god.

 

[franky]

i want to play post gen 5 but drizzle is still in grr.. lets cross our fingers

From experience, it's drizzle that is broken. While admittedly burungeru walls all the swift swim mons in in the rain, any good rain team has was to beat its counters. Yknow, like any good team ever. The fact that this method is a 100% accurate 120 power STAB move that's super effective on water types makes this a lot easier. With ability for rain teams to bypass their counters incredibly easily, banning manaphy or kingdra doesn't solve the issue

qft because in uu we came to a conclusion damp rock is the problem and not the sweepers

 

[Nails]

From experience, it's drizzle that is broken. While admittedly burungeru walls all the swift swim mons in in the rain, any good rain team has was to beat its counters. Yknow, like any good team ever. The fact that this method is a 100% accurate 120 power STAB move that's super effective on water types makes this a lot easier. With ability for rain teams to bypass their counters incredibly easily, banning manaphy or kingdra doesn't solve the issue.

 

[capefeather]

I don't think you can pose questions like what if something else got this in Gen 5 only

I was suspicious of others subconsciously doing so because this is getting into trippy semantic territory again.

 

[Bugbot]

After reading many posts here, I can assume people either want Drizzle to be limited or Drizzle to be banned. There IS one way to satisfy everyone this way though...

Weather Clause.

Activating Weather Clause would ban the use of Drought/Drizzle/SandStream/SnowWarning. By doing so, those that despise fighting rain and sand all the time get to battle people who want balanced matches. People that want to use Drizzletoed and co. will be restricted to not having the Weather Clause activated.

Even if a Clause like this sees the light of day, there should still be a little clean-up for the abusers (since some of them can be way too dangerous for a stable metagame). The tension going on is all around Kingdra, Ludicolo, Doryuuzu and Landlos, maybe proper testing could be done with the "Weather Metagame" and banning them for the "Weatherless Metagame".

This Clause would ONLY be temporary though. It would help people judge which metagame is better for the players by trying both styles at once. You guys added Dream World OU and stuff like Little Cup. I don't see why we shouldn't get "Weatherless OU" or something of the sorts.

 

[Darusare]

As Capefeather says, when forced to use item slots for Damp Rock, moveslots for RD, to avoid being taunted, and to deal with the 8 turn duration, Rain Dance will most probably no longer be viable, so any abilities abusing it will simply not be in common use whatsoever. Spoiling people with Drizzle is not a reason to go back to how Gen 4's Rain was, nor is that it would be preferable - only the current meta is relevant.

Restricting Rain however does seem the way to go, but banning Drizzle will not do this, it will likely eradicate it from competitive play.

...................... no
allthough the current metagame is centered around weather
there is no way rain will be no longer viable
so long as sand is controlled
most likely by banning dory

 

[masterful]

After reading many posts here, I can assume people either want Drizzle to be limited or Drizzle to be banned. There IS one way to satisfy everyone this way though...

Weather Clause.

Activating Weather Clause would ban the use of Drought/Drizzle/SandStream/SnowWarning. By doing so, those that despise fighting rain and sand all the time get to battle people who want balanced matches. People that want to use Drizzletoed and co. will be restricted to not having the Weather Clause activated.

Even if a Clause like this sees the light of day, there should still be a little clean-up for the abusers (since some of them can be way too dangerous for a stable metagame). The tension going on is all around Kingdra, Ludicolo, Doryuuzu and Landlos, maybe proper testing could be done with the "Weather Metagame" and banning them for the "Weatherless Metagame".

This Clause would ONLY be temporary though. It would help people judge which metagame is better for the players by trying both styles at once. You guys added Dream World OU and stuff like Little Cup. I don't see why we shouldn't get "Weatherless OU" or something of the sorts.

That doesn't solve the issue at all. I dislike drizzle because it is broken and overcentralizes the metagame, not because I'm baby who can't stand weather of any kind.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

After reading many posts here, I can assume people either want Drizzle to be limited or Drizzle to be banned. There IS one way to satisfy everyone this way though...

Weather Clause.

Wouldn't help defining the broken factor.



And hey guys capefeather is right we're getting into worthless semantics again, how about we play more and talk less? I know "this metagame sucks" with weather everywhere but fuck this Charizard and Venusaur are OU-worthy, we should have a bit more fun with them imo!!!!

 

[Bugbot]

Wouldn't help defining the broken factor.

The broken factor: abusers. I clearly stated there should be proper testing for the main threats such as Kingdra, Ludicolo, Doryuuzu and Landlos.

Once "Weather OU" would have cleaned up the mess above, "Weather OU" and "Weatherless OU" will combine and form Standard OU again.

That doesn't solve the issue at all. I dislike drizzle because it is broken and overcentralizes the metagame, not because I'm baby who can't stand weather of any kind.

I'll admit this is a very good point (the "baby who can't stand weather of any kind" part). Drizzle is overcentralizing the metagame, but if it gets banned, Sun and Sandstorm will both take over and the mess will be even worse (I'm sorry but a Venusaur in the sun that just Growth'd is gg). If Drizzle gets banned, Drought will then be banned as well and we'll be stuck with Doryuuzu and Landlos bullshit (and the lolhail). Banning Drizzle alone will not solve anything since it's going to give the spotlight to other weathers.

 

[Benlisted]

I was suspicious of others subconsciously doing so because this is getting into trippy semantic territory again.

Fair play, people have been leaning towards that.

After reading many posts here, I can assume people either want Drizzle to be limited or Drizzle to be banned. There IS one way to satisfy everyone this way though...

Weather Clause.

Activating Weather Clause would ban the use of Drought/Drizzle/SandStream/SnowWarning. By doing so, those that despise fighting rain and sand all the time get to battle people who want balanced matches. People that want to use Drizzletoed and co. will be restricted to not having the Weather Clause activated.

Even if a Clause like this sees the light of day, there should still be a little clean-up for the abusers (since some of them can be way too dangerous for a stable metagame). The tension going on is all around Kingdra, Ludicolo, Doryuuzu and Landlos, maybe proper testing could be done with the "Weather Metagame" and banning them for the "Weatherless Metagame".

This Clause would ONLY be temporary though. It would help people judge which metagame is better for the players by trying both styles at once. You guys added Dream World OU and stuff like Little Cup. I don't see why we shouldn't get "Weatherless OU" or something of the sorts.

I don't think entirely eliminating an aspect of the game as large as weather would ever be a good idea for the meta. However if someone can be bothered to code it (it is already present as a side-ladder on PO's server) then I see no harm in adding it as an available clause for challenges and possibly a side ladder.

...................... no
allthough the current metagame is centered around weather
there is no way rain will be no longer viable
so long as sand is controlled
most likely by banning dory

Think about it. Since Dory is not currently banned or going to be - if Drizzle is banned, other weathers will be much stronger. Sand has 3 Sand Paddle abusers and several Sand Power ones, Dory and Llandlos being very threatening indeed. It also has permenant residual damage and SpDef boosts, as well as being able to set SS permenantly by switching in. Sun has an improved Growth, a permenant inducer, and many chlorophyll, Moonlight, and Fire types with which to abuse it. Rain has to give up a turn even to get its weather up, which may not succeed, has it run out after 8 turns (7 useable), and risks being reset by an opponent merely switches in. Can you seriously say that you believe Rain would remain a viable team style when faced with this opposition?

 

[moe1216]

After reading many posts here, I can assume people either want Drizzle to be limited or Drizzle to be banned. There IS one way to satisfy everyone this way though...

Weather Clause.

Activating Weather Clause would ban the use of Drought/Drizzle/SandStream/SnowWarning. By doing so, those that despise fighting rain and sand all the time get to battle people who want balanced matches. People that want to use Drizzletoed and co. will be restricted to not having the Weather Clause activated.

Even if a Clause like this sees the light of day, there should still be a little clean-up for the abusers (since some of them can be way too dangerous for a stable metagame). The tension going on is all around Kingdra, Ludicolo, Doryuuzu and Landlos, maybe proper testing could be done with the "Weather Metagame" and banning them for the "Weatherless Metagame".

This Clause would ONLY be temporary though. It would help people judge which metagame is better for the players by trying both styles at once. You guys added Dream World OU and stuff like Little Cup. I don't see why we shouldn't get "Weatherless OU" or something of the sorts.

I actually like this idea. Sure it may not be exactly what everyone wants, but it'll give players a chance to use their teams without having to worry about the weather abusers and summoners while letting those that want to use it can, plus the idea of having a unique environment to test it out may help us get a much better idea of whether rain really is broken or not.

 

[smashlloyd20]

I'm sort of on the fence about Drizzle. Banning it would make rain useless. Although really, everyone thought Ononokusu was going to be the next big sweeper, and look how that went. Adapt, people.

 

[Darusare]

Of course rain would still be viable
its commonly known as the best
and kingdra, ludicolo, ect. are proof
even with the extra move slots and damp rock

sun isnt as easily abused as you may think
sun abusers arent nearly as resistant as the rain abusers
and since the OU metagame has almost always been flooded with water types (NO PUN INTENDED) they are far easier to use
because they have proven their worth in and out of weather
while almost all pokemon used by a sun team aren't viable without sun

sand has taken a great step since 4th gen
but once again all sand users have many weaknesses
even dory is fairly weak to mach punch
some spots have to be filled by types that dont really gain anything in the sand
(excluding not getting damage because almost 25% of the metagame allready does that)

 

[XienZo]

Rain stall would be completely dead without Drizzle though, with or without Damp Rock.

 

[Darusare]

its kill rain stall or kill rain offensive

take your pick

 

[Arc Tech]

its kill rain stall or kill rain offensive

take your pick

If I had to pick, I would pick to kill rain stall. Weather stall teams, except for sand, aren't viable anyway.

And the only reason sandstall is viable is becuase ttar/hippo are good pokemon, and none of the pokes are entirely dependent on sand, except maybe cradily, if you use it. It really shouldn't be called sandstall at all, tbh, unless it uses a bunch of rock types or sand veil abusers.

 

[Darusare]

This should be called the Weather Gen
just based on how much stress this is giving us

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Rain stall would be completely dead without Drizzle though, with or without Damp Rock.

But honestly who uses Rain Stall anyways when you do have Kingdra/Manaphy/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Gorebyss/Poliwrath (Dreamworld)/Omastar/Qwilfish and other Swift Swimmers. Do you see Parasect anywhere? Dewgong, Hydration Vaporeon? Barely anyone uses it and who gives a darn about killing Rain Stall (Hail Defence is almost completely killed by Sand and Sun hates you and you don't see Sandstorm being lambasted for that for example) when compared to Rain offensive abuse?

If Drizzle is broken, which it is and not Swift Swim, then ban it. Banning automatic weather gives purpose to weather moves and there are many viable users without the need of auto-permanent weather.

 

[Arc Tech]

But honestly who uses Rain Stall anyways when you do have Kingdra/Manaphy/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Gorebyss/Poliwrath (Dreamworld)/Omastar/Qwilfish and other Swift Swimmers. Do you see Parasect anywhere? Dewgong, Hydration Vaporeon? Barely anyone uses it and who gives a darn about killing Rain Stall (Hail Defence is almost completely killed by Sand and Sun hates you and you don't see Sandstorm being lambasted for that for example) when compared to Rain offensive abuse?

If Drizzle is broken, which it is and not Swift Swim, then ban it. Banning automatic weather gives purpose to weather moves and there are many viable users without the need of auto-permanent weather.

I'm not sure drizzle is broken. While it does greatly support kingdra and ludicolo, possibly to the point of being broken, it really only supports some specific (classes of ) mons and even fewer of them are made broken, I really think it is the broken mons to blame, not drizzle. Drizzle's not like Deo-s, who supported everything and anything to a ridiculous degree.

 

[TheValkyries]

I love how people just list Ludicolo/Kingdra/Kabutops as broken with absolutely NO evidence. They just assume that its true, as if it were common sense or something.

They haven't changed for 3 generations, yet, only now when 8 turns becomes infinite everyone starts losing their mind. What exactly changed for those three pokemon on that 9th turn? Or that 10th turn? So on, and so forth. These Pokemon are not suddenly broken just because rain is infinite. They're the same as they've always been. I simply can't understand how people feel this need to ban Drizzle before they ban Manaphy, something that truly is broken because of rain.

 

[ginganinja]

ugh I hate these "who uses Rain Stall" questions. I myself use Rain stall (along with my 245435 teams based around something else) and its not too bad. Don't bother saying that because Swift Swim sweepers X, Y and Z are cool you should always use Rain offence. Rain Stall has its own Niche and there is nothing wrong with testing it instead of Rain offence.