np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[pokemonomekop]

It's finally here, I've been waiting for this one
I'm not as experienced as some people here, but I feel that it's not as overcentralizing that it's been made out to be.
It's not the only pokemon that can be considered impossible to counter by balance/offense(kyuB and victini are examples of powerful wallbreakers without many real counters) so there have to be other qualifications that would make this OP. Rock polish may set it up for that

The setup turn for RP is a crucial thing to note, as it's rare that a pokemon will setup more than once in a game- against offense it's extremely difficult to get a free turn at all without a play. Even after it, azumarill, ice sharders, and talonflame can revenge it pretty easily. Most teams have at least 1 pokemon that can take a hit from a set, and because it only has 1-2 slots to play around with, teams which have 2-3 pokemon who can take an earth power can generally take it on somewhat well as long as they keep their team healthy.

Before it gets up a rock polish, it's laughably easy to check-almost anything faster can kill with relative ease, and speed creep has determined that outspeeding a base 101 pokemon isn't the most difficult thing to do

I can accept that it's an S rank threat, but a ban seems to imply that it can sweep any offense or balance team unconditionally, and it can't. To ban it without first pointing a finger at things like mega charizard X, mega altaria, and even bisharp(who can sweep most offensive teams after subtracting a mon and does quite well vs balance) feels hypocritical.

 

[shiloh]

I cannot say i am surprised, but boys, Landorus I is just another wallbreaker. Put some ice moves and buky waters in your life, they won't dissapoint you

The thing is Landorus has a very easy time getting by bulky waters, and putting Ice Types moves on anything either than Offence is hard as the best users of Ice Shard are Mamoswine and Weavile.

relevant calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 261-308 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 230-270 (63 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Expert_Occultist]

To the anti-ban crowd what potentially broken mons are being held back by Lando-I that can't be handled by other wallbreakers? There's been a couple of posts of that nature but no examples given so far.

As for the mon itself I've never had a huge problem with it but it is indeed regarded as the best wallbreaker in the tier because it can function as something more than a wallbreaker with its sweeping sets. With Lando-I gone teambuilders who want a powerful non-mega wallbreaker will be forced to use less versatile options like Kyurem-B and Hydreigon which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm not sure if it's really ban worthy but doing so can potentially increase diversity which is never a bad thing for me.

 

[FaZeBoo]

I am nowhere near suprised, with all the rumors. But lando i's great movepool and setup is on another level, so, i agree with this, and i want to see how this turns out. Im on the side of ban, because it tears up hyper offense and balance, but great job ou council, this is the best suspect you could of done at this moment of time.

 

[BlazeLatias]

I wanted to say my thoughts on this thing and ive wanted to for a while so here goes nothing.

Honestly lando-i has been really dominating in the oras metagame i mean seriously this things crazy its e powers hit like mega gards hyper voice. On top of that its rather difficult to take care of as this thing can run any coverage move to handle its would be counters such as av torn-t who loses to rock slide. Slowking is a rather decent switch in to this monster but can be over powered by a cm set ifs its set up even then it knock off cripples it. Lando-i also gets two great boosting moves in rock polish and cm which make it even bigger of a threat for stall/fat teams or more frail but fast teams. I mean you pretty much have to run something on your team just to keep this thing in check so it wont stomp on your entire team. I mean this things such a huge threat its not even funny. I'm just surprised it took this long for lando-i to be suspected. You can say all you want how this thing dies to a ice shard but that means nothing when this thing can claim several souls before going down itself and that is a huge problem. Im going to quote something clone said not that long ago: Lando-i is pretty much a slower but stronger greninja. In many ways that's actually really true. Lando-i is broken and needs to go. Nothing will change my mind on that.

 

[doughboy]

OK this thing is pretty ridiculous. If you are building an offensive team there is literally no reason to not use Landorus-I. No one has given a compelling argument to why this POS should stay in the tier, and I doubt anyone will produce one in this thread.

It was already touched upon in the OP 4th coverage move? Goodbye balance. Calm Mind? Prepare to wipe the floor against stall and slower teams Rock Polish? Offense gets wrecked. Performing so well isn't mutually exclusive for any of these sets though because each set can have some of the advantages of other sets ex. Rock Polish set running Modest having extra power to run though defensive pokemon

I think this is a very obvious no ban. I won't make sweeping assumptions until I get reqs and try out the new meta on the suspect ladder but I believe Lando-I can be seen as strictly the be seen as the best late game sweeper, a complete S-rank pokemon--but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be banned. It has plenty of counters. Both Latis, Cress, Chansey, AV Tornadus-T, Skarm, SP Def Zapdos. And there are plenty of other ways to maneuver around him.

To the people that are arguing that half the counters I listed aren't counters because Lando-I carries knock off. The usage of that move in this meta is
| Knock Off 12.476% |.

This is not a viable argument. You don't team build for the 12% of Landos. You're teambuilding for the rock polish Lando's that are strongly cemented in the meta. Lando's that are carrying Knock Off will be countered and checked by many other pokes it can normally beat.

People keep rattling off counters like fyourblog but don't even notice that literrally all of them are easily trapped, heavily crippled by knock off, or weak to SR lol. Like come on think of a realistic in game scenario. Knock Off support is literally so easy to pair with Landorus-I you can just pair it up with some other absurdly strong special attacker to bring in whatever check they have. Didn't you think this is why Knock Off is at 12.4% usage for Landorus-I, because it doesn't necessarily have to run Knock Off itself? This is why you see double kami offense everywhere. Are you going to scout out between Thundurus and Landorus-I, the two most powerful special attackers in the tier, while keeping your check at enough health with SR + the accompanying TTar's sand damage, avoiding the possibility of a double switch to trap your check, and not losing another poke? Get real lol that is impossible to do consistently at higher levels of play. Not to mention it is difficult to wear down. Immune to sandstorm, immune to life orb recoil, and immune to spikes + neutral to Stealth Rock. Unlike most offensive pokemon, Landorus-I is not pressured by chip damage, so you can't "play around it" by delaying kills for a turn or two. This makes it so that the only real way you can KO is with a faster offensive pokemon with a supereffective move or a strong neutral special STAB.

I have read the same shit for five years about "blah blah blah but it can't go through every single one of its counters it needs *insert x move* for x-mon which means it can't run *y move* for y-mon!" Yeah fine whatever but do realize that your taking the risk to scout out against a pokemon that can easily 2HKO 90% of the metagame, which could cost poke losing you the game, while the Landorus-I user just loses some momentum by switching out and only taking at max 12% residual damage from SR. This is the quality of bannable pokemon that you have to look out for: that the risk vs reward is so heavily skewed to the said pokemon's user that it can consistently generates wins with a minimal chance of losing.

edit: changed absorbingly powerful to absurdly powerful lol

 

[Shaka Brah]

...Just because there aren't many counters doesn't mean there aren't many switchins. Lando-I has a plethora of checks that can come in on its various coverage moves I.E. any flier/levitator on EP, the lati twins on basically anything that isn't knock off, vest torn-t which should be a fucking balance staple at this point (this also conveniently doesn't give a fuck about pursuit trappers like scarf ttar that lando sometimes teams up with to kill shit like the lati twins), the list can go on. Just because a mon doesn't have designated counters than can switch in on it and heal all day until it decides to give out and switch doesn't make it broken in ORAS; checks that threaten it and force it out allowing you to advance your win condition are acceptable answers to a pokemon and if there are as many as there are for lando in the metagame then it really isn't a bannable issue.

Lando doesn't really "ravage all playstyles" either. The Rock Polish set isn't really the offense-raping jesus that everybody says it is because lando's usually too pressured to get a polish off against a decently-built HO team, and even then priority's waiting in the back. Balance has some viable answers for lando, the premier one threatening hitting its weakpoint for massive damage with an ice attack while healing most of the damage it takes freely every time it swaps out. Standard stall teams don't really get facerolled without a chance to win against Lando-I unless it's running something like CM. Otherwise they can choose walls that Lando can't really touch, Cress in particular (which only loses to CM sludge wave after lots of setup)

You can argue that this limits teambuilding, but teambuilding really does need to be limited to a certain degree at this point in the metagame. I don't see how people can go from saying that they hate ORAS because matchup problems are exacerbated by all of the random threats running around to wanting to ban one of the most common, (healthily) centralizing, and easily-prepared-for threats in the metagame. Sure, Lando-I is powerful and a great Pokemon, but it really isn't tier-breaking.

P.S. Don't say that every mon "can be lured" by Lando. Sure, technically it's true but doing this normally causes lando to give up on coverage for other shit it wants. It really isn't worth arguing in-depth because it's just going to turn into a circular "THIS dies to THIS, but THIS can switch in on THAT set, but THAT dies to THIS!!!" shitfest. Assuming that Lando both runs coverage for everything you want to send in on it and is able to do these on the switch into the check every time is paper pokemon at its worst.

 

[Celticpride]

Pretty sure Lando just needs to go. That ridiculous Sheer Force + Life Orb combo is just way too much. Earth Power is spammable as hell, and it has the movepool to take advantage of basically any check outside of Mega Latias and Cress. HP Ice + Rock Slide has turned into an actual legit set because it lures pretty much every Ground immunity you can think of. Earth Power coming off of that SH+LO boost powers through most resists on top of that. Normally I tend to be quiet when these sort of things come up, because the mentalities in these threads generally suck, but I feel like this test is the last thing we need to get to a final metagame banwise (maybe Shadow Tag?). Everything else, Metagross, Lopunny, Char-X, Altaria, they all have inefficiencies and drawbacks (mostly the cost of the Mega stone but there's more beyond that). Landrous has drawbacks and inefficiencies itself otherwise it would have been quick banned, but the combination of its strengths is simply too much. The amount of damage that Rock Polish Lando can do to balanced and stall with three moveslots is insane, and that set is supposed to put in the most work against offensive teams. Some suspects tend to be more flavor of the monthish, but Lando has really been an underlying issue for a long time now. The meta adapts to Lando, and then it adapts right back with whatever coverage / boosting / Knock Off set works next. That sounds a little like Genesect and Greninja to me, and that's not a good thing. While everything adapts to the meta to a degree, there's obviously some things that do it so much better than others. Ban Landorus and I think we get to that late XY point where the meta was very playable, and playstyles were pretty balanced. Some have argued that late XY was a little too balanced-heavy but its honestly pretty hard to get to a point where balanced isn't either too weak or too strong.

As far as the meta getting too fat, really? There's a huge number of wallbreakers in BL alone that can work in OU. So maybe you actually have to find a duo of wallbreakers that work together to break a defensive core? Heck Manaphy can put an immense amount of pressure on stall and balanced by itself. There's no shortage of weapons out there after the introduction of Mega Evolution. I mean just look at M-Heracross and Pinsir, both reside in BL but can still break a ton of defensive cores with little support.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The thing is Landorus has a very easy time getting by bulky waters, and putting Ice Types moves on anything either than Offence is hard as the best users of Ice Shard are Mamoswine and Weavile.

relevant calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 261-308 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lets also remember some of these (I have no idea which set you used so i'm using the one on the damage calculator)
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 212-252 (66.4 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 116-138 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 300-354 (94 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Literally the only one of these that even has a chance on coming in and KOing is Slowking (And if Landorus has Knock Off then Slowking needs to be fairly healthy and wit hout SR up), and It actually beats Alomomola on the switch at full

 

[Mur]

Ok this is a much needed test to start helping out this tier. Hopefully my thoughts don't get too scrambled since I have a lot to say about this mon. Well I think that lando should be banned from the tier. Having a no risk mon that is essentially the ultimate wallbreaker that also completely shifts momentum to your favor everytime it hits the field is just ridiculous to have in one slot. Yeah we know it can't run every move on one set don't even try those garbage arguments. How many switchins to this thing are you gonna have on your team since it only has like 2 true counters? Chances are they are all either A) pursuit bait or B) ripped apart by a coverage move. Also with two resistances and an immunity to spikes makes it even harder for these teams to pressure it in any way. Similar to any other banned mon there is no reason not to use lando, it is just too difficult to stop from busting through your team, and becuase of this it tears up 2/3 main playstyles which is essentially why greninja was banned by such a large majority except hilariously enough gren only bodied balance while offense and stall could handle it. Lando rips up both balance and stall and can potentially do damage to offense with rp. Honestly lando is no healthier than greninja which is a strong indicator to me that it should go. Note I am not comparing lando to greninja as they are two different mons but more so their unhealthy consequences on the tier which are very similar. Before I even see the "LOL lando is frail and slow offense beats it" have you ever realized the tier sped up recently only because of lando? That just shows how unhealthy and centralizing it is that it warped the whole meta to one playstyle just so it is more manageable. This is not even considering the fact that rp can still sweep offense with very little support required. Seriously this is not a question of whether or not lando is broken physically or not because we all know it is, it's more of if it's unhealthy for the metagame or not which with what I have stated above it totally is. Also seriously balance will be unbreakable with lando gone? Is that a joke? This tier has an excessive number of breakers that are top tier to choose from sorry that you can't throw on your brainless, no risk all reward breaker to make your team all good now, god forbid you have to use skill to win games anymore! I'm usually not an aggresive person but god what are these arguments. At this point I see very little reason as to why we shouldn't ban this monster from the tier. Like ask yourselves, how is the ultimate wallbreaker with near no reason not to use that has the potential to tear up whatever you choose healthy in any way?

So tl;dr lando is a low risk/high reward mon which greatly warps the meta around it in an attempt to adapt to it which with it's power and versatility is near impossible to accomplish and will just leave the meta running in circles or shifted toward just offense. So ban this beast imo.

 

[Ksh13]

...Just because there aren't many counters doesn't mean there aren't ,any switchins. Lando-I has a plethora of checks that can come in on its various coverage moves I.E. any flier/levitator on EP, the lati twins on basically anything that isn't knock off, vest torn-t which should be a fucking balance staple at this point (this also conveniently doesn't give a fuck about pursuit trappers like scarf ttar that lando sometimes teams up with to kill shit like the lati twins), the list can go on. Just because a mon doesn't have designated counters than can switch in on it and heal all day until it decides to give out and switch doesn't make it broken in ORAS; checks that threaten it and force it out allowing you to advance your win condition are acceptable answers to a pokemon and if there are as many as there are for lando in the metagame then it really isn't a bannable issue.

Lando doesn't really "ravage all playstyles" either. The Rock Polish set isn't really the offense-raping jesus that everybody says it is because lando's usually too pressured to get a polish off against a decently-built HO team, and even then priority's waiting in the back. Balance has some viable answers for lando, the premier one threatening hitting its weakpoint for massive damage with an ice attack while healing most of the damage it takes freely every time it swaps out. Standard stall teams don't really get facerolled without a chance to win against Lando-I unless it's running something like CM. Otherwise they can choose walls that Lando can't really touch, Cress in particular (which only loses to CM sludge wave after lots of setup)

You can argue that this limits teambuilding, but teambuilding really does need to be limited to a certain degree at this point in the metagame. I don't see how people can go from saying that they hate ORAS because matchup problems are exacerbated by all of the random threats running around to wanting to ban one of the most common, (healthily) centralizing, and easily-prepared-for threats in the metagame. Sure, Lando-I is powerful and a great Pokemon, but it really isn't tier-breaking.

P.S. Don't say that every mon "can be lured" by Lando. Sure, technically it's true but doing this normally causes lando to give up on coverage for other shit it wants. It really isn't worth arguing in-depth because it's just going to turn into a circular "THIS dies to THIS, but THIS can switch in on THAT set, but THAT dies to THIS!!!" shitfest. Assuming that Lando both runs coverage for everything you want to send in on it and is able to do these on the switch into the check every time is paper pokemon at its worst.

Yes, you can switch in Levitaters and Flying-typed on EP, but then, whoop, it has a different move to destroy you with. Switching in on one move is easy, being able to then live any other hits and then knock it out before it knocks out you is a different story. Landorus-I can run moves to hit almost anything, figuring out what pokemon it chose not to have a move for easily costs a few pokes on your end.

 

[oryxslayer]

YES FINALLY, LANDO I SUSPECT!!!!
I am so glad that this is finally happening and I would like to start with my basic opinions right now. I personally think that Lando-I will make teambuilding waaaay easier, and alleviate a bit of the matchup problem right now. For starters, with teambuilding, whenever I decide to build a team, I have to look at the team and say, "alrighty, wheres my lando check?" And if I don't have one on the team, the team is pretty much garbage, because of how splashable this guy is on offensive teams, the most common on the ladder where I play. I also think it alleviates the matchup problem a little bit as well, because personally, I find myself pigeon-holed into running lati@s because I have nothing else for charizard y or lando. If I have to dedicate one slot to specifically check a poke that has almost no counters or switch-ins, that's not acceptable in my opinion, because I would rather take a poke that is on my team for a different reason that "oh, I needed a lando check"

 

[Reisuke]

Just want to give my own 2 cents on this actually.

Landorus-I is versatile and very strong but it can easily be killed (due to it's weakness to kinda any common priority bar talon's brave bird and will still hurt). You will need to scout for it's set a bit but these days atleast one pokemon on a team carries protect/sub/any move like that (ok not all teams but you get my point) so you'll quickly know what it's running and can act when you figured out how to stop it. Another let down of it is that a few of the S rank mons can check it (keldeo, +1 mega altaria, opposing lando-I with HP ice) and some of the stronger A mons do so too.

I think this should sum all of it's weaker points up. (Because i want to say this) i'm leaning towards keeping it unbanned.

 

[stairwaytohell]

I doubt I'll have the time to get the reqs this time but i would vote for a ban for sure, land is a huge pain for the meta due to its ability to wreck balanced and stallish team with incredible ease, having like 0 counters ( besides mega latias yeah ) due to its ability + the movepool to expolit it perfectly. It's not that useless against offense tho, since they could be forced to sac a mon or two before killing it, and if lando's rp the only way to stop it are strong / SE priority moves. I know that it also has the infamous 4mss, but i don't think that's a totally good argument to keep it ou ( just like it wasn't for other previous suspected mons ), since it can easily adapt to the mg to avoid that problem. Builders can't really hope to be 100% safe against this mon, they can prepare to face some of lando's most used sets but being safe against his whole movepool is nearly impossible. Even if it's not as overcentralizing as other mons were, i think this thing really deverse a ban: being a huge threat for every defensive team without the need of boosting moves ( but it can also run cm to be even more dangerous ) is quite unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Shaka Brah]

Yes, you can switch in Levitaters and Flying-typed on EP, but then, whoop, it has a different move to destroy you with. Switching in on one move is easy, being able to then live any other hits and then knock it out before it knocks out you is a different story. Landorus-I can run moves to hit almost anything, figuring out what pokemon it chose not to have a move for easily costs a few pokes on your end.

A lot of pokemon that have been listed in the thread outspeed Lando's 101 speed stat. Them being hit by another move after successfully getting in off of the EP isn't the issue, since shit like the Lati twins force it out with Draco threatening to kill, or Torn-T packing HP Ice, etc.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Randorosu is a Good Pokemon™ as certified by the Department of Good Sets™. I'm not going to waste a bunch of my time explaining what Landorus does because if you don't know, you shouldn't be posting here anyways. I understand why people think it's broken. It has absurd coverage, fantastic power, decent bulk for an offensive Pokemon because it doesn't take Life Orb recoil, and the ability to tear balanced teams to shreds even if they prepare for it. However, I don't think that Landorus should be banned.

OU's ideal Speed for an offensive Pokemon has obviously been creeping up drastically in the last few generations as we've gotten new really fast, really powerful Pokemon (Garchomp and Lati@s's unbanning in BW2, Keldeo, Terrakion, Tornadus(-T), Gengar, into Talonflame and a handful of Megas in Gen 6 that beat even those Speed tiers and hit just as hard). This hurts Landorus a lot because all of these Pokemon barring Talonflame I believe (I think Adamant Band OHKO's after Rocks but not before) have the ability to OHKO these Pokemon without a boost, which means if you predict correctly against the Landorus user, the momentum shift can swing right back in your favor. This is especially relevant because Landorus's STAB has a common immunity in the OU metagame. Yes, the prediction game goes both ways, but sending in Landorus and clicking Earth Power isn't as cost-free as others have implied.

Tricking sniped the main point of my argument that while Landorus is really, really powerful, it's a necessary force in the metagame in that it's pretty much the only wallbreaker that is fast enough to be decent against offense and does not take up a Mega slot. Given, it's not that hard to fit a wallbreaking Mega onto a team (Metagross, Diancie, Alakazam, Gardevoir, Lopunny to an extent) because they are so independently good, but Landorus's ban will propel the usage of these types of Pokemon and make fat balance almost risk-free to run. Other non-Mega wafllbreakers in OU have exploitable flaws, and many are slow. Kyurem-Black has a lot of common weaknesses and poor Speed. Gengar is incredibly frail despite its great Speed and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping. Manaphy requires at least one turn to set up before it is even remotely threatening to balanced teams, which gives you time to respond with an offensive check. Hydreigon is slow. The list goes on. Maybe the fact that Landorus doesn't have any really exploitable flaws pushes it into broken territory, but I feel it simply makes it the most reliable at its job and that it adds something good to the metagame.

On the other hand, Landorus really is nightmarish to cover in teambuilding, so I wouldn't be sad to see it banned. I just don't think it's the right way to go.

NO what landorus I does for your team is so stupid, he brings some defensive support (cause being inmune to volt switch and earthquake is always nice)and too much offensive support for the teams he is in (offense normally) destroying balance, stall and even some offensive builds (u destroy sand offense with rock polish...) so easily with whatever move he decides to run in his 3th and 4th slot should not be on ou, all his counters are weak to rocks or are weak to pursuit(mention to bisharp and tyranitar who have great offensive and defensive synergy with landorus i), yet those balance breakers (manaphy, gengar, mega pinsir.. etc) have some flaws but those flaws are what makes them balance enough to mantain theme in ou but this is not the case with perrorus; also im tired of this sentiment "but but balance and stall now is broken", we as community must try to make all playstyles equally to each others and if u need a brainless pokemon to win vs balance teams sorry u are a noob who doesnt want to think how to beat this playstyle.

 

[shiloh]

Lando-I is not broken, yes, it puts pressure on offense but it's weakness against priority makes it easy to revenge kill, also it cannot run all the coverage moves at the same time, also 101 speed is nothing to brag about. I might change my opinion until I get on the ladder but for now is a Do not Ban

It still has good enough bulk to stomach prioirity that isn't Ice or Choice Band, and the fact it has the possibility to run all of the coverage is the reason it is so broken. The fact you have to scout if it is running Sludge Wave, Knock Off, or Rock Slide usually means it is wearing down your team very quickly. Also the 101 Speed is quickly alleviated with Rock Polish in order to beat Offensive Builds with a Modest Nature.

Gonna ask a noobish question. This is the first suspect test im participating in that requires a 2:1 win ratio, how do you check that?

Just once you reach 2700 COIL, make sure you have had at least 2 wins for every 1 loss. For example if you are 44-22, you have a 2:1 ratio, but a 43:22 is not. Just make sure that if you double your losses you have more wins.

 

[M0nkey]

...Just because there aren't many counters doesn't mean there aren't ,any switchins. Lando-I has a plethora of checks that can come in on its various coverage moves I.E. any flier/levitator on EP, the lati twins on basically anything that isn't knock off, vest torn-t which should be a fucking balance staple at this point (this also conveniently doesn't give a fuck about pursuit trappers like scarf ttar that lando sometimes teams up with to kill shit like the lati twins), the list can go on. Just because a mon doesn't have designated counters than can switch in on it and heal all day until it decides to give out and switch doesn't make it broken in ORAS; checks that threaten it and force it out allowing you to advance your win condition are acceptable answers to a pokemon and if there are as many as there are for lando in the metagame then it really isn't a bannable issue.

Lando doesn't really "ravage all playstyles" either. The Rock Polish set isn't really the offense-raping jesus that everybody says it is because lando's usually too pressured to get a polish off against a decently-built HO team, and even then priority's waiting in the back. Balance has some viable answers for lando, the premier one threatening hitting its weakpoint for massive damage with an ice attack while healing most of the damage it takes freely every time it swaps out. Standard stall teams don't really get facerolled without a chance to win against Lando-I unless it's running something like CM. Otherwise they can choose walls that Lando can't really touch, Cress in particular (which only loses to CM sludge wave after lots of setup)

You can argue that this limits teambuilding, but teambuilding really does need to be limited to a certain degree at this point in the metagame. I don't see how people can go from saying that they hate ORAS because matchup problems are exacerbated by all of the random threats running around to wanting to ban one of the most common, (healthily) centralizing, and easily-prepared-for threats in the metagame. Sure, Lando-I is powerful and a great Pokemon, but it really isn't tier-breaking.

P.S. Don't say that every mon "can be lured" by Lando. Sure, technically it's true but doing this normally causes lando to give up on coverage for other shit it wants. It really isn't worth arguing in-depth because it's just going to turn into a circular "THIS dies to THIS, but THIS can switch in on THAT set, but THAT dies to THIS!!!" shitfest. Assuming that Lando both runs coverage for everything you want to send in on it and is able to do these on the switch into the check every time is paper pokemon at its worst.

Lando-I has a fairly large movepool. So the mentioned mons aren't switch-ins, unless you have psychic abilities and know exactly what set your opponent is running. Torn-T gets ripped to shreds by Rock Slide. Knock Off and Focus Blast shuts down Lati@s and T-tar respectively.

 

[Martin]

I am personally completely pro-ban. This thing is literally impossible to switch reliably in on for all pokemon barring Mega Latias, Chansey, Blissey, Slowking and Gliscor/opposing Landorus(-T) due to Sheer Force, but with HP Ice being a necessity on it nowadays to deal with Glisco and many carrying Knock Off for Chansey and Slowking, it is increasingly difficult to switch in on. Most of them are Rock Polish nowadays, and this will always carry Modest or Rash which, rather ironically, makes it hit harder than the wallbreaker set despite not being designed to break down walls. It is just way too difficult to deal with and it means that you are stuffed Mega Latias or you're stuffed v.s. it. In my opinion, if something can 2HKO Ferrothorn with a neutral hit you instantly know that it is fearsome, and RP Landorus can do that with ease (252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 191-226 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). If your team would benefit from the extra coverage brought by the wallbreaker set, however, Ferrothorn can't switch in on you because 4 attacks means Focus Miss is present (and even without Focus Miss Ferrothorn has a hard time coming in - 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). It is safe to say that Landorus is a force to be reckoned with in the damage department. However, that isn't all that needs considering. Lets start off with its speed tier. While 101 isn't overly impressive, missing out on the important 110 benchmark, this is alleviated rather well by Rock Polish, and it forces so many switches that it won't be having a hard time getting one up. In addition to this, it is still able to outpace common pokemon like Charizard, Landorus-T and Manaphy before a boost, all of which it deals a huge chunk to with its attacks (HP Ice for Landorus-T, Earth Power for Manaphy/Zard-X, Rock Slide or Sludge Wave for Zard-Y etc.). As for its bulk... well, the best way to describe Landorus' bulk is lacking. However, this is alleviated somewhat by its variety of immunities and a Fighting-type resistance, enabling it to switch in on predicted Thunderbolts and Earthquakes, as well as non-STAB Superpowers through smart luring (bluffing a Ferrothorn switch through setting a pattern where you appear to go into it every time and then switching up your pattern, for example) and overall improving its ability to switch in. Finally, its matchup. This thing can single-handedly rip balance (the most common playstyle atm) apart. Also, if running Rock Polish, it can take a dump on offense once priority users are taken care of. Overall, Landorus is too much for the metagame to handle in its current state and it will be very difficult to persuade me and many other players otherwise.

 

[Albacore]

Going to keep this relatively short: While I do think some people are kinda overstating how difficult it is to handle Landorus (yes it has no counters, but it's very much checkable, it's outsped by a good amount of Pokemon and even after a RP can be revenge killed without too much difficuly by priority like Brave Bird/Sucker Punch/Aqua Jet/Ice Shard given its vulnerability to it), I'd still like to see it banned mainly because the huge constraint on teambuilding it creates and how much it preys on the current state of the metagame. It's imo by far the biggest reason people are complaining about matchup in ORAS, since the kinds of builds (mainly balanced builds) that are sucessfull atm just get eaten alive by Landorus, while archetypes that handle it better like HO and to a lesser extent stall struggle a lot more and are just not as effective. So you basically get to choose between losing to Landorus and losing to everything else, and of course you're going to choose to lose to Landorus.

And yeah, you can argue that balance will be too good compared to other playstyles, but not only (as many people have already pointed out) do we already have tons of stuff like Manaphy, Mixed Altaria, GK Metagross, YZard, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, etc which can break balanced teams pretty easily, but I believe that removing the single biggest roadblock for balanced teams will actually promote the progression of the metagame, and in the long run could, in a wierd way, end up giving the opportunity for stall or HO to become better. By removing the dominant threat to balance, one which can actually put in a good amount of work against other playstyles, you force people to use weaker stuff which still works very well against balance but struggles much more against other playstyles, or even dedicate more of their slots to beat balanced teams, which ultimately benefits other archetypes since these balance-breakers will be used over stuff which handles said archetypes. So don't be so certian that balance will dominate, becuase, altrhough it probably will for a while, once people employ even more varied methods of handling balanced teams, you'll probably end up seeing them getting overwhelmed.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

A lot of pokemon that have been listed in the thread outspeed Lando's 101 speed stat. Them being hit by another move after successfully getting in off of the EP isn't the issue, since shit like the Lati twins force it out with Draco threatening to kill, or Torn-T packing HP Ice, etc.

Thats not exactly case against the RP set, which is the set that is the best vs Offense

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 201-238 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-315 (88.6 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-286 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So with Stealth Rock, your Thundurus and Latias are going to have to have pretty high health in order to have a chance survive the hit from Lando, and in the case of the former, your pretty much on a Kamikaze mission since the LO damage is going to KO you. Also Latios is just outright KOd

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

this is all the sets that Landorus-I could use:

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Ice
- Sludge Wave / Knock Off
OO: Psychic for Slusge Wave. Focus Blast for HP Ice or Sludge Wave.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave / Knock Off
- Focus Blast / Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power Ice

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Psychic / Hidden Power Ice
OO: Sludge Wave.

Opter Options: Gravity set.
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Gravity
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Psychic / Hidden Power Ice
Other Options:
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Psychic / Hidden Power Ice

I created the Gravity and Substitute set based on the einfo on OO because those are options to take in account in an S rank Pokemon.

At first glance, everything that is not inmune or named Celebi or is inmune to it is going to be not evena good check.

 

[fyourblog]

People keep rattling off counters like fyourblog but don't even notice that literrally all of them are easily trapped, heavily crippled by knock off, or weak to SR lol. Like come on think of a realistic in game scenario. Knock Off support is literally so easy to pair with Landorus-I you can just pair it up with some other absurdly strong special attacker to bring in whatever check they have. Didn't you think this is why Knock Off is at 12.4% usage for Landorus-I, because it doesn't necessarily have to run Knock Off itself? This is why you see double kami offense everywhere. Are you going to scout out between Thundurus and Landorus-I, the two most powerful special attackers in the tier, while keeping your check at enough health with SR + the accompanying TTar's sand damage, avoiding the possibility of a double switch to trap your check, and not losing another poke? Get real lol that is impossible to do consistently at higher levels of play. Not to mention it is difficult to wear down. Immune to sandstorm, immune to life orb recoil, and immune to spikes + neutral to Stealth Rock. Unlike most offensive pokemon, Landorus-I is not pressured by chip damage, so you can't "play around it" by delaying kills for a turn or two. This makes it so that the only real way you can KO is with a faster offensive pokemon with a supereffective move or a strong neutral special STAB.

So are we banning pokes because of this? This why pokemon is a TEAM game. If you can't avoid having your Lando-I counters crippled by your opponent's knock off/other move then you are not a good player. Yes knock off support is easy to pair with Lando-I. No that does not mean it is incredibly overpowered. You can work around getting your Chansey knocked off (which btw is the only counter I listed that would be severely hurt by it) . Your argument isn't solid. If you can't avoid knock offs on your Chansey by a pokemon other than Lando-I, then either your team isn't efficient, or you don't know how to play.

 

[Analytic]

So are we banning pokes because of this? This why pokemon is a TEAM game. If you can't avoid having your Lando-I counters crippled by your opponent's knock off/other move then you are not a good player. Yes knock off support is easy to pair with Lando-I. No that does not mean it is incredibly overpowered. You can work around getting your Chansey knocked off (which btw is the only counter I listed that would be severely hurt by it) . Your argument isn't solid. If you can't avoid knock offs on your Chansey by a pokemon other than Lando-I, then either your team isn't efficient, or you don't know how to play.

Name Landorus counters please. And keep in mind that they lose 1v1 to certain sets

 

[MrAldo]

This thing really needs to go. Such an unhealthy presence for the metagame that acts like a huge teambuilding constraint, unless you have a mega latias or a cresselia you are basically condemned to be weak to it. There is also the case that this thing literally needs very little support in order to completely destroy teams, you will have to be sure you dont press draco meteor and provide a free switch-in to the most common lando check in the form of latis, the fact that many of its checks are pretty exploitable one way or another makes lando-I extremely difficult to play around.

Jesus Christ, people saying that balance without lando-I around would be too good is probably one of the most silly arguments Ive ever seen. You guys know are the plenty of different balance breakers around, right? LO Alakazam, LO Kyurem-B, swords dance breloom, Mamoswine who just dropped for whatever reason, LO Clefable, Gengar, TG + 3 attacks manaphy and so much more!! Make me a favor and diversify your teambuilding a bit before reaching this silly assumptions. Ridiculous.

Whatever consequences occur if lando-I gets banned or not are welcome, then we will proceed to deal with them with whatever it takes. Banning lando-I is a step in the right direction for a better metagame. People really need to decide what they want at this point. BAN