This thing does NOT belong in OU. End of story. If y'all wanna go and ruin the OU tier again, go for it. But it's ridiculous. No reason to bring this thing, which I see as one of the best Pokemon in Ubers because of it OHKO on a geo Xerneas into a lower tier. That's all I need to say, but don't make this mistake just because of some megas in OU are a little tough to handle.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
- Status
I'm of the opinion that aegislash's ban was completely deserved. However, the metagame has changed a lot since its ban, and there are a LOT of threats running around, to a point where you can't prepare for all of them. One point for bringing aegislash back that I see is that it centralizes the meta a bit, making it less matchup based - which is nice. The flip side of this though, is that you then have aegislash on most teams simply because it beats such a large portion of the metagame1. Many pokemon will still be amazing, just hindered a lot by aegislash. I'm not really sure whether this sort of system will work, but I'm going to keep an open mind while I ladder suspect.
Very happy to see this mon being suspected again. It will finally give Aegislash a conclusive resting place and finally put an end to the team matchup vs. centralisation complaints. The dominant stance on the metagame we prefer will ultimately decide where Aegi rests.
Personally, I welcome the return of Aegi. It's a brilliant mon but checked by many, many mons, that are not remotely niche. 50/50 applies to Pokemon in general and whilst Aegi emphasises this, it should no means make the difference between a ban vs. no-ban. Some mons being 'forced' to run EQ just means that mons that previously slaughtered everything now have increased checks, which imo reduces teambuilding strain regardless of whether you use Aegi or not on your team. Considering how people hate mons that can cover all switch ins, we should welcome a mon that forces monsters like Mega Meta to be walled by something.
I feel Aegislash is theoretically superior to how it performs in practise, and prefer a metagame with its inclusion over the meta in its current state. I will be satisfied regardless after this test, as the community will have decided on the metagame it desires. I also don't get the Lando-I discussion because A) Lando slaughters Aegi and B) Aegislash does not influence whether Lando is broken or not. I personally feel Lando is broken even in an Aegi meta but that's for another time.
Mons that Aegi beats don't become useless just because they're not mindless to use anymore, people. Clefable is still diverse as hell, Jirachi has sub fire punch, Celebi can still support and pass... The metagame is always subject to change and mons aren't always destined to stay top tier. I say this as somebody that got to number 3 in the Aegi Genesect meta with both Starmie and Goodra on my team, so I'm not basing everything off theory, but practise. And yeah you could dismiss my opinion on the basis that it's the ladder but I feel there are more skilled players on the ladder than the community gives credit for.
Overall I will try and find the time (screw uni) to ladder as I feel Aegi makes the game better, not worse. There is a subjective element to this test as Aegi is not objectively broken, and I respect and understand both sides of this debate.
Personally, I welcome the return of Aegi. It's a brilliant mon but checked by many, many mons, that are not remotely niche. 50/50 applies to Pokemon in general and whilst Aegi emphasises this, it should no means make the difference between a ban vs. no-ban. Some mons being 'forced' to run EQ just means that mons that previously slaughtered everything now have increased checks, which imo reduces teambuilding strain regardless of whether you use Aegi or not on your team. Considering how people hate mons that can cover all switch ins, we should welcome a mon that forces monsters like Mega Meta to be walled by something.
I feel Aegislash is theoretically superior to how it performs in practise, and prefer a metagame with its inclusion over the meta in its current state. I will be satisfied regardless after this test, as the community will have decided on the metagame it desires. I also don't get the Lando-I discussion because A) Lando slaughters Aegi and B) Aegislash does not influence whether Lando is broken or not. I personally feel Lando is broken even in an Aegi meta but that's for another time.
Mons that Aegi beats don't become useless just because they're not mindless to use anymore, people. Clefable is still diverse as hell, Jirachi has sub fire punch, Celebi can still support and pass... The metagame is always subject to change and mons aren't always destined to stay top tier. I say this as somebody that got to number 3 in the Aegi Genesect meta with both Starmie and Goodra on my team, so I'm not basing everything off theory, but practise. And yeah you could dismiss my opinion on the basis that it's the ladder but I feel there are more skilled players on the ladder than the community gives credit for.
Overall I will try and find the time (screw uni) to ladder as I feel Aegi makes the game better, not worse. There is a subjective element to this test as Aegi is not objectively broken, and I respect and understand both sides of this debate.
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I'm pro ubers for aegislash to, but your post doesn't help support pro ban arguments, all you did was call them dumb asses for retesting it and ruining the tier. Also xerneas has nothing to do with anything cause it's ubers.
I hate Mega Metagross. But I hate this fucking thing more.
I'm pretty sure it's already been established that Aegislash is pretty damn overcentralizing. Decent Pokemon like Starmie, Celebi, Jirachi, Mega Latias, and Hawlucha become practically unusable with Aegislash in the metagame - don't forget, if you couldn't beat Aegislash, you were shit in the metagame, end of discussion. And Aegislash now has Magnet Rise, which has the potential for just screwing up Pokemon that depended on Earthquake to hit it (looking at you, Terrakion) and even preventing something like SpD Gliscor from coming in to ground pound that shit. The way I see it, Aegislash has only gotten better in ORAS, when it was already established in XY that it was pretty god damn overcentralizing.
I'm all for testing Ubers in OU, and a certain degree of centralization is necessary in order to have a healthy metagame - if the metagame becomes too decentralized, skill becomes devalued as a factor as the team matchup factor becomes too great. However, having a metagame where you have to have 5 or 6 checks to one Pokemon is not a good idea either. I think I'd rather have a metagame centralized around Mega Metagross than one with an extra check to it but absurdly centralized around that one extra check. Leaning towards a ban on this one.
I'm pretty sure it's already been established that Aegislash is pretty damn overcentralizing. Decent Pokemon like Starmie, Celebi, Jirachi, Mega Latias, and Hawlucha become practically unusable with Aegislash in the metagame - don't forget, if you couldn't beat Aegislash, you were shit in the metagame, end of discussion. And Aegislash now has Magnet Rise, which has the potential for just screwing up Pokemon that depended on Earthquake to hit it (looking at you, Terrakion) and even preventing something like SpD Gliscor from coming in to ground pound that shit. The way I see it, Aegislash has only gotten better in ORAS, when it was already established in XY that it was pretty god damn overcentralizing.
I'm all for testing Ubers in OU, and a certain degree of centralization is necessary in order to have a healthy metagame - if the metagame becomes too decentralized, skill becomes devalued as a factor as the team matchup factor becomes too great. However, having a metagame where you have to have 5 or 6 checks to one Pokemon is not a good idea either. I think I'd rather have a metagame centralized around Mega Metagross than one with an extra check to it but absurdly centralized around that one extra check. Leaning towards a ban on this one.
While the first part is true, Bisharp actually prefers an Adamant nature the majority of the time, even with the presence of Mega Altaria. Jolly max Speed Aegi outspeeds Adamant Bisharp by exactly 1 point and gets the easy OHKO with Sacred Sword. Nonetheless, I do predict Bisharp may start running Jolly more often to prevent Jolly SS Aegi from beating it 1v1.
Ok, so I was sitting in the shower thinking about new megas from ORAS and if any of them besides Lopunny could be effective with dealing with this sword. And then it hit me. Mega Pidgeot is an amazing, dare I say hard check to Aegislash. Normally you see Aegis running around with one of Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon, and Mega Pidgeot can take most of those VERY nicely. Seeing as Mega Pidgeot is already to immune to one of Aegis' STABs I've exluded both Shadow Ball and Sneak from Calcs
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 193-228 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 111-131 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pidgeot eats up Special Aegislash sets for breakfast and it can return with a hard hitting Heat Wave.
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 406-478 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 402-474 (124 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So it might sound stupid, but this might be a niche for Mega Pidgeot since, unless Aegislash starts running something silly like Head Smash or Rock Slide (actually that might not be half bad lol), Mega Pidgeot beats it.
tl;dr
EDIT: Fixed 2 Calcs.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 193-228 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 111-131 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pidgeot eats up Special Aegislash sets for breakfast and it can return with a hard hitting Heat Wave.
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 406-478 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 402-474 (124 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So it might sound stupid, but this might be a niche for Mega Pidgeot since, unless Aegislash starts running something silly like Head Smash or Rock Slide (actually that might not be half bad lol), Mega Pidgeot beats it.
tl;dr
EDIT: Fixed 2 Calcs.
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Ur Aegislash calcs have it at level 50 or something lol. No way it's doing that little to Pidgeot.Ok, so I was sitting in the shower thinking about new megas from ORAS and if any of them besides Lopunny could be effective with dealing with this sword. And then it hit me. Mega Pidgeot is an amazing, dare I say hard check to Aegislash. Normally you see Aegis running around with one of Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon, and Mega Pidgeot can take most of those VERY nicely. Seeing as Mega Pidgeot is already to immune to one of Aegis' STABs I've exluded both Shadow Ball and Sneak from Calcs
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 51-61 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 30-36 (9.7 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
Pidgeot eats up Special Aegislash sets for breakfast and it can return with a hard hitting Heat Wave.
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 406-478 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 402-474 (124 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So it might sound stupid, but this might be a niche for Mega Pidgeot since, unless Aegislash starts running something silly like Head Smash or Rock Slide (actually that might not be half bad lol), Mega Pidgeot beats it.
tl;dr
Um that's a level 50 Aegislash v 100 M-Pidgeot
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 193-228 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There you go.
Thanks, Fixed.
I think you're looking at the Special VGC set there, which is set to level 50.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 193-228 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pidgeot does outspeed Aegislash, but there's still a small chance that Aegislash can beat it since Heat Wave is not a clean KO. It's a matter of who hits first here.
Alright, after playing the suspect ladder to actually see the metagame first hand with aegislash present in it, I must say, it is one of the most balanced metagames I've experienced in a long time. Games aren't matchup based as much, and aegislash's performance is rather mediocre on it's own since ground spam is everywhere. I never seen a mega metagross (which is wonderful) but that's most likely from the aegislash hype.. which will eventually go down as the suspect test progresses.
Going back to aegislash's performance, it's not necessarily great to be honest. He has very few switch in opportunities.. aegislash is meant to be played as a pivot, but he gets weared down so easily and there isn't much he can be brought into without eating an EQ, knock off, U-turn, double switch, or status.. literally every game I've been in, any aegislash brought in usually is the first thing gone in the match.. whereas an aegislash held off until the end performs significantly well. Either we're still acclimating to using an aegislash again, or he's not the great wall of china everybody makes him out to be.
As far as the team building goes, ironically aegislash has been tricky for me to fit on a team. I don't know why, but aegislash just needs a ton of support in this metagame, whether it's healing wish, wish, hazards, or threat removal. Aegislash teams really need a lopunny answer or the like as the synergy with lopunny checks is pretty poor unless you pick something out of the norm. Lando-I plows through aegislash and pretty much gets momentum when he KS's and proceeds to sweep.
As far as issues with "bulletproof cores" like lando+aegi.. I haven't seen any problems with it. I know a lot of claims are "Aegi blocks ice for lando" but to be fair, there are very few viable ice types in OU to begin with and the most viable ones, mamoswine and weavile threaten both pokemon with their EQ+iceshard/iceshard+knockoff combination. Lopunny's standard coverage (ice punch+HJK+return) makes it tricky for aegislash or lando to switch into.. as well as sub encore alike.
However, I will continuing laddering to watch the metagame develop, but from what I've experienced and seen so far, both as an aegislash user and an aegislash's opponent.. he's a lot more broken and pressuring on paper, than actually broken and pressuring in practice.
From the last suspect test, my experience and thoughts are pretty much as Robert Alfons described it in post number 3 of the victory road thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-suspect-test-5-victory-road-version.3511650/
The only thing different from the previous suspect test, is heracross, medicham, and pinsir are already BL so they're not necessarily a concern anymore to run coverage for aegi.. and gardevoir is pretty middling in usage while gross we've been purposely trying to introduce a check to since it survived the last suspect test (even though it was a joke suspect).
Going back to aegislash's performance, it's not necessarily great to be honest. He has very few switch in opportunities.. aegislash is meant to be played as a pivot, but he gets weared down so easily and there isn't much he can be brought into without eating an EQ, knock off, U-turn, double switch, or status.. literally every game I've been in, any aegislash brought in usually is the first thing gone in the match.. whereas an aegislash held off until the end performs significantly well. Either we're still acclimating to using an aegislash again, or he's not the great wall of china everybody makes him out to be.
As far as the team building goes, ironically aegislash has been tricky for me to fit on a team. I don't know why, but aegislash just needs a ton of support in this metagame, whether it's healing wish, wish, hazards, or threat removal. Aegislash teams really need a lopunny answer or the like as the synergy with lopunny checks is pretty poor unless you pick something out of the norm. Lando-I plows through aegislash and pretty much gets momentum when he KS's and proceeds to sweep.
As far as issues with "bulletproof cores" like lando+aegi.. I haven't seen any problems with it. I know a lot of claims are "Aegi blocks ice for lando" but to be fair, there are very few viable ice types in OU to begin with and the most viable ones, mamoswine and weavile threaten both pokemon with their EQ+iceshard/iceshard+knockoff combination. Lopunny's standard coverage (ice punch+HJK+return) makes it tricky for aegislash or lando to switch into.. as well as sub encore alike.
However, I will continuing laddering to watch the metagame develop, but from what I've experienced and seen so far, both as an aegislash user and an aegislash's opponent.. he's a lot more broken and pressuring on paper, than actually broken and pressuring in practice.
From the last suspect test, my experience and thoughts are pretty much as Robert Alfons described it in post number 3 of the victory road thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-suspect-test-5-victory-road-version.3511650/
The only thing different from the previous suspect test, is heracross, medicham, and pinsir are already BL so they're not necessarily a concern anymore to run coverage for aegi.. and gardevoir is pretty middling in usage while gross we've been purposely trying to introduce a check to since it survived the last suspect test (even though it was a joke suspect).
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After playing on the suspect ladder for a bit and testing with some people, I must say aegi should remain banned.
I'm going to skip over all of the regurgitated and unnecessary theory-monning and get right to the main point of a suspect ladder. The metagame on this ladder is simply awful and it reminds me why aegi was banned in the first place. The amazing bulk, power, and typing it possesses, in addition to kings shield (most broken move), is very unhealthy for the metagame. It really is on every team and it overcentralizes the metagame in such a significant way. It affects the viability of way too many pokemon and it really is just awful to play with. As aegislash is a cancer to this metagame, the suspect ladder is a horrible experience and I can't wait to get this over with and vote to make sure aegi stays ubers.
TLDR: Stop theory-monning. Just play the ladder and see how bad it is for yourself.
I'm going to skip over all of the regurgitated and unnecessary theory-monning and get right to the main point of a suspect ladder. The metagame on this ladder is simply awful and it reminds me why aegi was banned in the first place. The amazing bulk, power, and typing it possesses, in addition to kings shield (most broken move), is very unhealthy for the metagame. It really is on every team and it overcentralizes the metagame in such a significant way. It affects the viability of way too many pokemon and it really is just awful to play with. As aegislash is a cancer to this metagame, the suspect ladder is a horrible experience and I can't wait to get this over with and vote to make sure aegi stays ubers.
TLDR: Stop theory-monning. Just play the ladder and see how bad it is for yourself.
I'm sorry I know you want him unbanned but... It is rather dishonest to say MGarde is "mediocre" by any stretch of the word (her consistent viability ranking speaks for itself), manhandles generally most defensive teams akin to the way Lando-I does as there is basically very little that want to switch in to Hyper voice, and those that do can get bopped by the utility moves/coverage. I would hardly consider MGarde mediocre, especially when unlike MHera and MMedi she's actually stayed rather consistent in the viability rankings even with the shift.
I totaly agree with most of the things your saying, even on the overcentralizing aspect. However i think you missed a few things about that point. Its not only Medi/Hera/Garde who will take another hit from Aegis presence (and all 3 of them are far better than their usage indicates). There is also Celebi, Jirachi, the Latis, Alakazam, Slowbro, Mew basicly every psychictype in the game is hard countered by Aegislash. There was a reason why the latis were more or lessthe only highly viable psychic types back in the Aegi meta and that reason was Aegi. And even the latis required their teams to have a good Aegi counter because he got a free switch everytime they came in.
Uh, in case you're not aware, Starmie was UU the whole time while Aegislash was around, and while Aegislash wasn't the sole perpetrator behind this (since it took until Greninja was banned for Starmie to regain its full usefulness), it was certainly one of the big things that kept Starmie down. Now, if I remember correctly, that is really the only time it has dropped below OU for a significant length of time in the entire history of the franchise. And it'll do just fine if Aegislash comes back into the meta. Right.
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Latis were still viable when Aegislash was around since they were (and still are) the best Defoggers all around. Celebi and Mew will live since Aegislash can't stop Celebi from Nasty Passing and Mew will just Burn it/use Knock Off as it switches in. Jirachi might suffer but it can still use Fire Punch with a delicious 40% chance to burn but who cares about that thing anyway because fuck Serene Grace Iron Head.
This means Landorus-I is now forced to sacrifices some SpA or Speed and run some bulk in order to safely switch into Aegislash which is one of the benefits its unban would bring to OU. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Isn't it a good thing if Aegislash is on every team during a suspect ladder? We want people to use and abuse this mon so everyone's opinion is solid when voting time comes, and we don't have any "unsure" opinions.
R.I.P. OU.
This thing is absolutely overcentralizing. There are so many Pokemon you can not use with the return of Aegislash. Yes, the meta sucks today but i do not see that overcentralizing would save the meta or make it better. And in the end it is just one more Pokemon you have to prepare for and to stop broken things with broken things is not a thing in my opinion.
There are so many other things you can do to make the meta better. Ban Baton Pass and Shadow Tag, a suspect for Lando-I is a thing too. But overcentralizing? Is that really what you want?
I mean i will play the ladder on the suspect and perhaps i am wrong and just overreacting but today i do not think that Aegislash is the right way to make the meta better.
This thing is absolutely overcentralizing. There are so many Pokemon you can not use with the return of Aegislash. Yes, the meta sucks today but i do not see that overcentralizing would save the meta or make it better. And in the end it is just one more Pokemon you have to prepare for and to stop broken things with broken things is not a thing in my opinion.
There are so many other things you can do to make the meta better. Ban Baton Pass and Shadow Tag, a suspect for Lando-I is a thing too. But overcentralizing? Is that really what you want?
I mean i will play the ladder on the suspect and perhaps i am wrong and just overreacting but today i do not think that Aegislash is the right way to make the meta better.
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I'm just going to address this real quick since I feel that a lot of newer users will post something similar.
1. Suspects by definition are overcentralizing especially so with potential drops since everyone will flock to their new toy. Same thing happened for kyube in bw2, aegis is no different since we've had a whole cartridge shift (ORAS) since aegis' ban so we have no precedence for its current ability in the tier so naturally everyone will be trying aegis out. Not to mention that the ou council is expecting and/or wants aegislash to be overcentralizing just by their opening post as seen below
2. Aegislash may or may not be broken, and the suspect test is here to determine if it truly is broken or not, but more importantly it's to see if aegis can act as a balancer to fix the matchup based meta that is the overused tier. How is this an issue? Trying a ORAS metagame with aegislash to see if it's more "enjoyable/balanced" is better than doing nothing. Worst comes to worst, aegis is deemed broken and rebanned but at least it's better than doing nothing and leaving the meta to stagnate.
3. There are so many things that can make the meta better? Can you list any and give proper reasoning behind them? You're just reiterating what many say without giving an actual claim for it which fails to make your points coherent.
Posts like these are why myself and many others tend to avoid suspect threads in general since it's full of people that honestly have not played the tier and/or waiting for the meta to settle. If you really want to make any of the claims you made in your post, wait for more than a day to see if the meta stabilizes, or better yet stop making uninformed posts and just ladder and get reqs and vote to ban aegis if you feel so strongly for it. But making posts like these convinces absolutely no one and really shouldn't be part of this thread anyways. Again, sorry for somewhat calling you out, but there are too many posts like these in the thread and i really cbf to find them all. Gl laddering and have a nice day.
Yes, but there has to be a differentiation between Aegislash getting that usage in JUST the suspect meta or having obscene usage extend to the actual meta later, and arguments for that viewpoint has to be presented as such.
Just going on what I remember from old stats, the odds of Aegislash being at 40%+ usage during the suspect test is nearly guaranteed, but so are the odds of it dropping to under 30% on the normal ladder is just as likely, and dropping under 25% is highly probable since Aegis PEAKED at ~28% usage outside suspect metas IIRC, but all the old logs are gone from the server crash. That's XY though.
If someone wants to argue that aegis' usage will be even higher than that, then they'll need some pretty damn solid points. There needs to be real reasons behind its potential of being pushed higher than that (of which would be linked to reasons it could be broken), as 20-25% usage is pretty standard for a mon thats #1 in OU and you can't really argue that as "overcentralizing" (a phrase that is as fallacious as it is meaningless), so we'd need to see new arguments that'd help show how the ORAS power creep is only making a Pokemon that might've not been broken even in XY to begin with stronger, and how its high usage would cause problems in the tier.
So here are some pre ladder thoughts. Seeing as I've played in the OU Minitour in which Aegislash was allowed, I don't really like the effect it has on the current metagame. It is pretty much just "let me flip a coin and see if I get it correct. Should I get it wrong, I potentially lose". I'll prolly post more thoughts about this when I experiment more on the ladder but I can see myself voting for ban even if I get reqs. Let's see how much the ladder can persuade me.
In this post I'll address two of the main arguments against the suspect, since they're constantly brought up and I don't agree with them.
Overcentralization
At the moment in OU we have a situation where the meta shifts around multiple top threats to the point where it's not possible to prepare for all of them adequately. Aegislash would partially fix this problem as it gives a solution to a good number of threats in just one slot. This would make the tier more centralized around one pokemon thus making it less matchup-based and (in my opinion) more enjoyable. A lot of people also said that some pokemon would instantly become unviable just because they can't do anything against aegislash, which simply isn't true. While these pokemon would decrease in their popularity they definitely wouldn't become unviable: If you have a pokemon in your team that is weak to a top threat the rest of your team just have to be better prepared for that specific threat. It's the same as using a Bisharp and having to prepare the rest of the team for Keldeo: Bisharp doesn't become unviable just because it gives free switches to a top threat just like Heracross won't become unviable just because it has to run EQ or Hawlucha just because there's another pokemon you have to kill before it can sweep.
50/50s
This is an interesting one as it is generally hard to theorize about predictions. Now the "50/50"s created by Aegislash normally aren't actual 50/50s, since the outcome of the two possible right predictions isn't the same. For example let's imagine a weakened SD Talonflame coming in mid-game on an Aegislash in its blade form. The Talonflame could go for SD or Flare Blitz while the Aegislash could predict Flare Blitz and go for King's Shield or predict the SD and go for Shadow Ball. The possible outcomes for the Talonflame-user are "have a +2 Talonflame with the opponent not being able to King's Shield"/"have Talonflame getting killed" for SD and "have Aegislash getting killed"/"have a -2 Talonflame" for Flare Blitz. Now the Talonflame-user can choose which prediction is the more favorable one for him. Maybe a +2 Talon-sweep is the only way to win or maybe the scenario of a -2 Talonflame isn't really that bad? Aegislash only rarely forces true 50/50s, instead it forces predictions which are (in my opinion) healthy for the metagame and, again, make the factor of match-up a bit smaller.
Overcentralization
At the moment in OU we have a situation where the meta shifts around multiple top threats to the point where it's not possible to prepare for all of them adequately. Aegislash would partially fix this problem as it gives a solution to a good number of threats in just one slot. This would make the tier more centralized around one pokemon thus making it less matchup-based and (in my opinion) more enjoyable. A lot of people also said that some pokemon would instantly become unviable just because they can't do anything against aegislash, which simply isn't true. While these pokemon would decrease in their popularity they definitely wouldn't become unviable: If you have a pokemon in your team that is weak to a top threat the rest of your team just have to be better prepared for that specific threat. It's the same as using a Bisharp and having to prepare the rest of the team for Keldeo: Bisharp doesn't become unviable just because it gives free switches to a top threat just like Heracross won't become unviable just because it has to run EQ or Hawlucha just because there's another pokemon you have to kill before it can sweep.
50/50s
This is an interesting one as it is generally hard to theorize about predictions. Now the "50/50"s created by Aegislash normally aren't actual 50/50s, since the outcome of the two possible right predictions isn't the same. For example let's imagine a weakened SD Talonflame coming in mid-game on an Aegislash in its blade form. The Talonflame could go for SD or Flare Blitz while the Aegislash could predict Flare Blitz and go for King's Shield or predict the SD and go for Shadow Ball. The possible outcomes for the Talonflame-user are "have a +2 Talonflame with the opponent not being able to King's Shield"/"have Talonflame getting killed" for SD and "have Aegislash getting killed"/"have a -2 Talonflame" for Flare Blitz. Now the Talonflame-user can choose which prediction is the more favorable one for him. Maybe a +2 Talon-sweep is the only way to win or maybe the scenario of a -2 Talonflame isn't really that bad? Aegislash only rarely forces true 50/50s, instead it forces predictions which are (in my opinion) healthy for the metagame and, again, make the factor of match-up a bit smaller.
Personally I never had a problem with Aegislash. I had him on one of my team (out of like 12) and while I agree that he's a very strong Pokemon, I was honestly surprised when he was banned from OU. I never had my team swept by him or anything of the sort. I fee like Aegislash can be countered just by smart play, working around his King's Shield, and out-predicting. I never thought there was a reason to have him banned, and to be honest, I don't see a problem with him returning.
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