np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Silenced Melody]

Ehh... do you really need to be able to switch into things with Tornadus-T..? Tornadus-T shouldn't be switching into the blobs/staying in against the blobs unless the player is 100% sure that they're going to die to a Superpower / Hurricane.
And just saying, Specs Tornadus-T can run Sleep Talk.

Lucario, dragonite, mamoswine, scizor are all pokemon that can revenge kill a weakened tornadus with powerful priority. Hell, even cloyster, toxicroak and ambomasnow can threaten it. The list goes on, there's so many way to deal with it.

I don't see how 'revenge killing' is a great way of dealing with a threat considering how you need a free switch in order for it to happen, which usually means that something in your team has to die.

 

[superbadd]

You can say the same thing to pokemon like Hydreigon, kyurem-b, and mix mence who have no safe switch ins and can KO something almost every time. How do you deal with them? Revenge kill.

 

[alamaster]

Thing is, Tornadus can hardly switch into anything. I'm looking at the entire list of ou pokemon and everything can threaten it one way or another. Best way to get it in is through prediction or after something dies. It's equally as threatening as it is threatened. Common status users Tornadus may switch into include celebi, breloom, deoxys-d, and the blobs. It isn't even that difficult to force out as you claim, A strong scarfer, something faster, or priority after SR damage is more than enough to force it out.

Breloom always loses to Specs Sleep Talk Tornadus-T, since Focus Blast also OHKOs, U-turn does damage as Torn-T switches out to safety and obviously Hurricane OHKOs. I don't think I know anyone who would switch into Celebi, Deo-D (who is usually used as a lead, while Torn-T is used mid to late game) or the Blobs, which is laughable considering they actually wall Tornadus-T. If you learn the opponents moveset for Celebi or whatever, then it is easy to play around and get in. The last sentence about scarfers and priority users are irrelevant because in order to switch those in you need something to take the Hurricane, which often results in something getting KOd. If that happens, Torn-T has done its job and can switch out to safety only to do it all over again.

 

[superbadd]

Breloom can actually beat Tornadus-t with a combination of low sweep and SE. But seriously, we've come to the point were a lot of threats have no "safe switch ins" and can get a KO almost all the time and no one's complaining about them being broken. Then we have Tornadus-t who have several and everyone's screaming the ban hammer. Why is tornadus-t different than hydreigon or mixmence in terms of you have to revenge kill it to deal with it?

 

[Silenced Melody]

...The rest of your argument seems to hinge on the fact that Tornadus-T can be revenged killed, which while true, doesn't necessarily mean it is balanced. The vast majority of the revenge killers can switch in once maximum, and others mentioned like Weavile and Mamoswine are OHKOed as they switch in. This forces you to make sacrifices every time Tornadus-T comes in, and puts you at an immediate disadvantage despite "preparing" for it. Unless you're running Chansey, SpDef Jirachi / Rotom-W you have basically nothing to switch into Tornadus. It should also be noted that Regenerator means Tornadus-T has a massive amount of freedom to switch out of revenge killers, despite its SR weakness. Most of these revenge killers can also easily be handled by top OU Pokemon such as Ferrothorn.

I'm not categorically saying its broken, I just don't see how revenge killing is really relevent when a) it can switch out almost for free and b) there are ~3-4 Pokemon that can actually switch into it.

Copy and pasting what Django said on the last page.
Tl;DR:
Tornadus-T has a lot of freedom switching out of its revenge killers.

The main issue with Hydreigon is that it's slow so it has hell of a lot more revenge killers. MMM also has issues with Stealth Rock so its effectively on a timer.

Edit: It's not entirely for the 'safe switch-in' thing alone; its fast U-turns allow you to seize the momentum with relative ease in most scenarios.

 

[alamaster]

Breloom can actually beat Tornadus-t with a combination of low sweep and SE. But seriously, we've come to the point were a lot of threats have no "safe switch ins" and can get a KO almost all the time and no one's complaining about them being broken. Then we have Tornadus-t who have several and everyone's screaming the ban hammer. Why is tornadus-t different than hydreigon or mixmence in terms of you have to revenge kill it to deal with it?

Well for one, its the fastest non scarfer thats's actually used in the game. It has a 100% accurate move that's insanely powerful with no drawbacks unlike Draco Meteor, has regen so SR weak is basically non existent.

 

[superbadd]

Doesn't that balance it out though? The fact that it has counters is pretty neat, compared to the other two. Sure its SR weakness is somewhat mitigated through its ability(it has to deal wit SR when switching in which makes it easier to KO) and it has that speed tier. But there are so many more check and counters available. That's why I think the pros and cons are balanced. Rain support is giving it the drawback free base power move, which is an issue. But once again alone as it stands, being easy to revenge kill, poor accuracy stab, it seems fine. I don't like how people are always judging this thing with rain support, without that, it's easier to deal with.

 

[alamaster]

Yeah I agree, which is why I want Rain gone, not Torn-T. Without Rain, its not broken at all, same with Keld. Rain is the entire reason this is being tested, I'm not sure why you think people don't know that its easier to deal with outside of Rain. That's like saying Excadrill isn't broken because you can just change the weather!

 

[Silenced Melody]

I'm actually not sure whether we're referring to Tornadus-T on its own or a Tornadus-T in the rain. Regardless, a good player wouldn't lose the weather war that early and will usually be able to maintain weather or momentum.

Tornadus-T's counters can be dealt with fairly easily seeing as all of them are either Electric or Steel (Jirachi, SpD Zapdos, SpD Rotom-W)*. Not to be that one person to bring this up, but Genesect had its counters as well. Heatran, Rotom-H, completely walled the bug, but obviously, it's really easy to dispatch / exploit Heatran and Rotom-H is not really used at all.

*I don't know how I just realized this, but CB Terrakion completely annihilates Torn-T's 'counters' O.o.

 

[Django]

Breloom can actually beat Tornadus-t with a combination of low sweep and SE. But seriously, we've come to the point were a lot of threats have no "safe switch ins" and can get a KO almost all the time and no one's complaining about them being broken. Then we have Tornadus-t who have several and everyone's screaming the ban hammer. Why is tornadus-t different than hydreigon or mixmence in terms of you have to revenge kill it to deal with it?

The main difference is Speed. Tornadus-T is fast enough that it can outspeed and thus force out / kill loads of powerful OU Pokemon, like Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp etc. This means that if / when it gets in, it is much more likely that it will be piling the pressure on the opposing team despite the other team using hugely threatening Pokemon themselves. MixMence, Hydregion and other stuff with no "counters" often have to find their way in against more defensive Pokemon (which they may not be able to OHKO and will also be carrying status or w/e) while Tornadus-T can grab so much momentum with its superior Speed against even the most offensive of teams.

 

[Asek]

I really like this test over a complete drizzle one, props to whoever thought it up

These are two pokemon that I'm really sitting on the fence with where they should go. On one hand they are incredibly powerful threats that completely shape the metagame and if you aren't prepared for them you're pretty much going to lose, but then again its not like the standard team won't come prepared for them. If anybodies having trouble with torn-t, I find Sub + CM rachi is really good for taking a hit and then effectively forcing it out for free sub and I can then rack up Calm Minds while parafusioning potential counters to death (haxrachi the best). On the other hand, Keldeo is my real night mare in the tier atm. A user of Specs Keldeo with good prediction can take out a pokemon if he gets a good switch in a lot of the time, and even if it doesn't completly 2HKO after rocks it is sufficiently weakening what switches in if the keldeo user knows whats coming in. Utility Jellicent is solidly 2HKO's by either of specs keldeo's Hidden Powers, and the specially defensive set does have small chance to be 2HKO'd (10.94%) after SR. 4/0 Latios is easily 2HKO'd by Icy Wind, and the Latias with the same Special bulk is a guranteed 2HKO from HP [GHOST] and has a chance to be 2HKO'd by Icy Wind after Stealth Rock be Icy Wind if high damage rolls crop up. Torn-T on the other hand I can see the hurricane abuse right from the start, and will attempt to keep my checks as healthy as possible to beat it. Keldeo can run a whole bunch of sets (scarf/ specs/ CM/ Sub + CM / Expert Belt) to reasonable success. I'm not sure if either are broken, but IMO keldeo is a lot more scary to face when it boils down to if I'm sure I can counter it / if I am using the right check for its set.

 

[Bryce]

Comparing Torn-T to Hydreigon and MixMence doesn't seem reasonable,because Tornadus-T DOES have counters.110 SpAtk isn't that good and it needs prior damage to kill majority of the tier.It is just hard to switch into.There are loads of powerhouses in OU that are no easier to switch into than Tornadus-T.Terrakion is an excellent example,while it doesn't have tornadus-t's speed and regenarator it does have other merits like unresisted dual stabs,sr resistance,good boosting moves which are just as good or perhaps even better.Dragon types also fall in the same category.They just have different advantages.I don't see what tornadus-t has that makes it remotely better than rest of ou's offensive threats.There is also the fact that it is extremely dependent on rain.

However,I cannot deny it is exceptionally hard to deal with when it has ScarfKeldeo,SubCM rachi,Ferrothorn,Agility Thundurus-T by it's side.Tornadus-T even when used under rain all the time doesn't seem broken or something absurbly good to me.It is the sheer amount of backbone it gets from it's teammates under rain makes it seem over the limit imo.

 

[PokèManiac Livio]

Yeah, was an impossible thing, imo the rain is the biggest trouble but without rain is like to come back to DPP so... i dunno what to do. Anyway Tornadus-T have only 2-3 counters (Rachi, Tom-W) and some checker, more or less like Excadrill so if you ll decide to ban it i m agree, if not i m agree the same xD. On keldeo... well with SR and Rain is more difficult to stop it but is possible, for example Tentacruel,Toxicroak,Latias or Jellycent too so i would not ban it.

 

[hotcoldyay]

Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention that Hurricane's 30% confusion rate is actually 100% when discussing a suspect.

I never said it would automatically confuse jirachi. It could, but it's not guaranteed.

 

[Lavos]

Thing is, Tornadus can hardly switch into anything. I'm looking at the entire list of ou pokemon and everything can threaten it one way or another. Best way to get it in is through prediction or after something dies. It's equally as threatening as it is threatened. Common status users Tornadus may switch into include celebi, breloom, deoxys-d, and the blobs. It isn't even that difficult to force out as you claim, A strong scarfer, something faster, or priority after SR damage is more than enough to force it out.

I've never had any trouble at all getting my Tornadus-T in and starting to wreak havoc on the opposing team. The usual method I employ to do this is predicting on an obvious switch by my opponent. For example, I have Breloom out on their Politoed, I Spore the Politoed, their Breloom check waiting in the wings is, say, Celebi. The Celebi switch is painfully obvious at this point, so I'm going to get Torn-T in here for free and start spamming Hurricane. It's a fool-proof strategy.

In fact, I'd just like to bring up real quick that Breloom is probably the best purely offensive partner in OU for Torn-T to have, because once Loom puts something to sleep it makes things much easier to get the bird in since there's an incapacitated Pokemon on the opponent's side of the field.

Also, forcing Torn-T out is harder than some of you may think, especially when it's at max health and locked into Hurricane. If you run mainly offensive teams like I do, your general course of action when seeing Torn-T is go to your check (if it's not dead), then once it is dead (because it always seems to die before Torn-T does), start sacrificing the least valuable members of your team. The only things that can really "force it out" are its best checks (Jirachi, Rotom-W, Bronzong), and things that outspeed it (Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Scarfers that can OHKO it). Most teams only have one, maybe two, of those things that can force it out, and if you don't have one of the first three, Torn-T will be killing things for sure by the time it fires off its second Hurricane.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Wait did i read it right? Tornadus T has counters? Like Sp Def jirachi and... a pokemon that can take the combination of Hurricane and Fighting type moves? Oh wait theyre all frail so they cant switch in anyway.

 

[typon77]

Thing is, Tornadus can hardly switch into anything. I'm looking at the entire list of ou pokemon and everything can threaten it one way or another. Best way to get it in is through prediction or after something dies. It's equally as threatening as it is threatened. Common status users Tornadus may switch into include celebi, breloom, deoxys-d, and the blobs. It isn't even that difficult to force out as you claim, A strong scarfer, something faster, or priority after SR damage is more than enough to force it out.

Tornadus definitely isn't as hard to switch in as you say, and the reason being is that it will almost always be at 100%, especially when paired with a spinner, which isn't that hard much to ask for when running rain (Tenta). You can generally switch in on a slower pokemon that won't OHKO, and either fire off a Hurricane, or U-turn out to maintain momentum. Switching in is the least of Tornadus' problems.

The main reason I think that Tornadus isn't going to get banned is that there are things that counter it, and it has little hope of breaking through these things. LO Tornadus does nothing to Defensive Jirachi in the Rain, and Jirachi can just seize the opportunity to Wish and stay alive. It can whittle away at SpD Rotom-W, but Rotom can either Pain Split the switch in or just Volt Switch out. It also gets outsped and OHKO'd by many scarfers, so revenging it isn't that hard. However, with proper prediction and team support, Tornadus can avoid revenge killing fairly easily.

Similar to many other people, I'm borderline about Tornadus, but I'm leaning towards No Ban, which seems to be the general case. Keldeo shouldn't get banned. Its a solid, underutilized pokemon, but its counterable and doesn't really control the meta.

 

[TheStriker]

They really shouldn't be banned. The introduction of Choice Scarf last generation was an outbreak. Why do you think Ninjask dropped all the way to NU? That was the reason. Bullet Punch and Ice Shard completely wreck Tornadus-T and a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion is enough to set it down. Specs Latios is also faster than sweep Keldeo and a Draco Meteor just washes it away. Keldeo also lacks Ice Beam and with many Dragon-types in Ubers and Mewtwo roaming around which carry Psystrike (OHKO), a whole team will have to built around it to function well in Ubers. As a Choice Scarfer. Palkia outclasses it bulk, STAB, and strength of its moves. Tornadus-T is shut down like this as well, but there is less priority in Ubers so its main counters are Darkrai and Mewtwo for outspeeding it. Extremespeed is seen on almost any team. CS Ditto is more common as well there too and Shaymin-S can flinch it to death. Tornadus-T is probably the only on that should be banned from OU, but if it does, it'll be at the bottom of Ubers.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Tornadus T niche is Hurricane, a flying type move. A special flying type move. How many pokemon can switch in this? And how many of them can take Superpower?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

They really shouldn't be banned. The introduction of Choice Scarf last generation was an outbreak. Why do you think Ninjask dropped all the way to NU? That was the reason. Bullet Punch and Ice Shard completely wreck Tornadus-T and a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion is enough to set it down. Specs Latios is also faster than sweep Keldeo and a Draco Meteor just washes it away. Keldeo also lacks Ice Beam and with many Dragon-types in Ubers and Mewtwo roaming around which carry Psystrike (OHKO), a whole team will have to built around it to function well in Ubers. As a Choice Scarfer. Palkia outclasses it bulk, STAB, and strength of its moves. Tornadus-T is shut down like this as well, but there is less priority in Ubers so its main counters are Darkrai and Mewtwo for outspeeding it. Extremespeed is seen on almost any team. CS Ditto is more common as well there too and Shaymin-S can flinch it to death. Tornadus-T is probably the only on that should be banned from OU, but if it does, it'll be at the bottom of Ubers.

Ninjask isnt a offensive threat. I dont see what it has to do with Tornadus T. Ice shard... fine mamoswine and who else? Tornadus T resists Close Combat. How well Keldeo and Tornadus T does in ubers has nothing to do with its brokeness in OU.
Edit:Sorry for double-post.

 

[Curtains]

I've never had any trouble at all getting my Tornadus-T in and starting to wreak havoc on the opposing team. The usual method I employ to do this is predicting on an obvious switch by my opponent. For example, I have Breloom out on their Politoed, I Spore the Politoed, their Breloom check waiting in the wings is, say, Celebi. The Celebi switch is painfully obvious at this point, so I'm going to get Torn-T in here for free and start spamming Hurricane. It's a fool-proof strategy.

In fact, I'd just like to bring up real quick that Breloom is probably the best purely offensive partner in OU for Torn-T to have, because once Loom puts something to sleep it makes things much easier to get the bird in since there's an incapacitated Pokemon on the opponent's side of the field.

Also, forcing Torn-T out is harder than some of you may think, especially when it's at max health and locked into Hurricane. If you run mainly offensive teams like I do, your general course of action when seeing Torn-T is go to your check (if it's not dead), then once it is dead (because it always seems to die before Torn-T does), start sacrificing the least valuable members of your team. The only things that can really "force it out" are its best checks (Jirachi, Rotom-W, Bronzong), and things that outspeed it (Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Scarfers that can OHKO it). Most teams only have one, maybe two, of those things that can force it out, and if you don't have one of the first three, Torn-T will be killing things for sure by the time it fires off its second Hurricane.

So we should ban breloom + torn-t? I dont get this post. At least against my teams it would be hard bringing tornadus-t in against me. First off i am not leaving a politoed in on a breloom. Second It just so happens according to you that the opponent brings in the worst possible opponent for torn-t......This example just seems like nitpicky we can make scenarios all day about other threats coming in on brelooms spore. The fact is that without rain tornadus is UU. Therefore a good counter to torn-t is just to take the head off the snake and get rain off the field. I hate the assumption that rain is always on the field because it is not true. If it is guaranteed for rain to stay up forever then torn-t is not the problem. it is rain.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

​

So we should ban breloom + torn-t? I dont get this post. At least against my teams it would be hard bringing tornadus-t in against me. First off i am not leaving a politoed in on a breloom. Second It just so happens according to you that the opponent brings in the worst possible opponent for torn-t......This example just seems like nitpicky we can make scenarios all day about other threats coming in on brelooms spore. The fact is that without rain tornadus is UU. Therefore a good counter to torn-t is just to take the head off the snake and get rain off the field. I hate the assumption that rain is always on the field because it is not true. If it is guaranteed for rain to stay up forever then torn-t is not the problem. it is rain.

Except Rain rules BW OU. And rain usually has an easy time agaisnt most sand and sun teams. So yeah its almost always on the field.

 

[Dungeons]

I am not sure if this is my place, but Tornadus-t and Keldeo should stay put. Yes Tornadus hits lick a truck, but that won't last long with Stealth Rock, Priority abusers (namely of Ice Shard), its thin defense (excluding the amazing Regenorator), and being outsped in the first place. How are you going to rank that up or a pretty pony who is killed by NU Amoongus (who should have a higher tier status), Thunderous therain, Jirachi, Dragonite, and every other pokemon that does not get OHKO'd, Thunder users , and Jellicent who is on many stall teams that I see. The problem is that status ruins them, they can easily be revenge killed, and should not have a tier change. Why would they be bannable from their home lands in the first place?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I am not sure if this is my place, but Tornadus-t and Keldeo should stay put. Yes Tornadus hits lick a truck, but that won't last long with Stealth Rock, Priority abusers (namely of Ice Shard), its thin defense (excluding the amazing Regenorator), and being outsped in the first place. How are you going to rank that up or a pretty pony who is killed by NU Amoongus (who should have a higher tier status), Thunderous therain, Jirachi, Dragonite, and every other pokemon that does not get OHKO'd, Thunder users , and Jellicent who is on many stall teams that I see. The problem is that status ruins them, they can easily be revenge killed, and should not have a tier change. Why would they be bannable from their home lands in the first place?

Regenerator owns Stealth Rock ot an extent and Ice Shard? Fine bring in Mamoswine safely against a rain team.

 

[Curtains]

​

Except Rain rules BW OU. And rain usually has an easy time agaisnt most sand and sun teams. So yeah its almost always on the field.

Easy time eh? I doubt that. A good sun team or a good sun team is on par with rain. Rain is just easier team building. Not better in practice.