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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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Agreeing with Arctic. A pokemon who abuses luck is much better off being bulky type than speed type, because the former is more likely to have more opportunities to abuse it.
Garchomp for instance could last the whole battle with its resistance to stealth rock, excellent defensive typing and tough defenses. In all the turns that it had the opportunity to fight, you had to pray to god you would not get sandveil haxed.
Shaymin really does not get that much opportunity to fight.
Garchomp for instance could last the whole battle with its resistance to stealth rock, excellent defensive typing and tough defenses. In all the turns that it had the opportunity to fight, you had to pray to god you would not get sandveil haxed.
Shaymin really does not get that much opportunity to fight.
Just as, if DT was legal, you would use it something like Cresselia and not Lucario.
Gah, now's my time to flinch. X^D
Yeah, it seems I've forgotten to factor in perfect Defense and HP IVs for Shaymin; when I redid the calculations the results confirm yours.
Digging through the old Shaymin discussion thread, another possible counter springs to mind: Cradily!
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cradily
The Special Wall and Protect sets listed there could both take Shaymin on, seeing as Cradily is impervious to Leech Seed, gets STAB Rock Slide, Protect, Recover, Toxic, or Amnesia, and is neutral to Flying and ground attacks; however, it does have a 2x weak to Ice.
Life Orb 252 Atk Timid Shaymin used HP Ice (70) on 252 HP/96 SpD Cradily:
39.36-46.81% with clear skies
26.6-31.38% with Sandstorm's Special Defense boost
So it's a 3HKO at best.
The same Shaymin uses Seed Flare on the same Cradily:
50.27-59.31% with clear skies
33.78-39.89% with Sandstorm's Special Defense boost
A possible 2HKO, but factor in the 15% chance to miss and the 32% chance that you don't get the Special Defense drop, and Cradily may pull through with Recover and Leftovers. Protect and/or a slightly larger investment in Special Defense might also do the trick.
Air Slash is a 4HKO at best without Sandstorm. No Life Orb or Growth will make it nigh impossible to get through Cradily without incredible luck.
Regarding my own experiences with Shaymin on the ladder; with the prevalence of Stealth Rock, Sandstorm/Hail, priority moves, and the focus on offensive play, Shaymin can't switch in on its life to sweep, bar Ground moves. It really can only go in after one of its teammates have fainted, and then it has to deal with the threat at hand. Unless it can OHKO, it has no opportunity to set up.
Its luck can be frustrating to deal with at times, but with few chances to shine, I've never found it to be much of an issue, let alone the sole reason for banning it to Ubers.
I actually use Cradily, though the set I use is a more defensive version of the Swords Dancing one. It's amazing how many people try to phaze it, think that Salamence can revenge kill it with anything short of CB Outrage, or have their Scizor/Metagross/Skarmory get Magnezoned. The real way to counter it is Toxic/powerful Fighting types. But I digress.
Cradily can't really switch in on Skymin in sandstorm unless you can bring it in on something other than Seed Flare/Substitute. That double sdef drop means Cradily's switching back out, and it has a better chance than Air Slash's flinch. Also, after an Air Slash flinch, Cradily's in danger of a Seed Flare KO. It's another pretty good check, and one I often use after I've lost Aerodactyl (who makes another good switch-in during Sandstorm), but it doesn't quite make the cut of a reliable counter.
Still, more people need to use Cradily. It's really quite good. Heck, just check this out...
252HP/252Df/6sD Calm Regice
364/123/299/236/480/136
204HP/168Df/136sD Impish Cradily in Sandstorm
364/198/299/179/426/122
Cradily takes ~12% more from special hits, but is not weak to Stealth Rock and has Recover. It has 19% less attack power, but has access to Swords Dance to boost it and can't be phazed.
Cradily can't really switch in on Skymin in sandstorm unless you can bring it in on something other than Seed Flare/Substitute. That double sdef drop means Cradily's switching back out, and it has a better chance than Air Slash's flinch. Also, after an Air Slash flinch, Cradily's in danger of a Seed Flare KO. It's another pretty good check, and one I often use after I've lost Aerodactyl (who makes another good switch-in during Sandstorm), but it doesn't quite make the cut of a reliable counter.
Still, more people need to use Cradily. It's really quite good. Heck, just check this out...
252HP/252Df/6sD Calm Regice
364/123/299/236/480/136
204HP/168Df/136sD Impish Cradily in Sandstorm
364/198/299/179/426/122
Cradily takes ~12% more from special hits, but is not weak to Stealth Rock and has Recover. It has 19% less attack power, but has access to Swords Dance to boost it and can't be phazed.
Togekiss and Jirachi don't pray that some type of hax KOs something so they can survive. It's not even close a last resort, if anything, you, the "anti-Skymin" user are using this post as a last resort.
Inner Focus blocks flinches (giving Lucario the upperhand on versions lacking Earth Power, probabally the SubSeed variant you mention later), Liquid Ooze stops Leech Seed and Clear Body blocks Special Defense drops... your point?
A lot? Hm, last time I checked, the only slower, actually somewhat common Choice Scarf user is +Spd Natured Tyranitar. After that, it's kinda of... hell, Skymin will just die T_T.
Infernape can do the same thing and no one's putting it into Ubers. Both are frail but, Infernape doesn't pray that it gets 2 consectutive flinches on Blissey in order to beat it. Same goes for SD Lucario who can run through most walls if it gets a Swords Dance up.
Who will JUST bring in a Pokemon to counter Gyarados with? Most of its counters can fall easily while doing shit damage to it in return. I use Dragonite is my Skymin counter and it does a fucking great job with Seed Flare mustering a staggering 9% on the average :(. The are many others who can "counter" Skymin, they're just prone to being lucked out by one. Blissey for example can switch in on nearly anything Skymin tosses at it and Skymin can only manage a kill if Blissey switches in on a Special Defense drop and if Air Slash gets two flinches in a row, get my drift?
Skymin won't be raped by Stealth Rock and Ice Shard users, can heal 50% of its damage per turn while shedding its Flying attribute, paralyze its Scarfed threats, hit things with a U-Turn and escape, AND not rely on luck to survive!? Who knew?
Are you implying that SubSeedSkymin is... invincible? Remember, you only have 2 moveslots for attacking and Seed Flare isn't so great in stall wars due to the fact that it's low on PP and there's a nice chance it'll either miss or, not drop something's Special Defense. So, I guess you're suggesting Seed Flare/Air Slash/Substitute/Leech Seed is going to run though teams, huh?
You crushed an arguement? All you did was point out what Skymin does on paper, not really what is can do when battling. :(
"a lot of people on the Uber side believe that Skymin should be banned because of its luck."
an 80% chance of something happening is luck? You are right, just the other day the weatherman said "there is an 80% chance of rain today, so if we are lucky, it will rain." It's probably going to rain.
It's not luck, it's "very likely." I could care less about anything else, a base 120 STAB move with an 80% chance for a 'pseudo-nasty plot' is more than enough to make it uber. You could just switch out, to get rid of the Sp.Def drop, but that's more than likely going to result in your switch taking "a base 120 STAB move with an 80% chance for a 'pseudo-nasty plot."
My Skymin "check" works awesome, as long as he doesn't switch into a 2 Stage Sp. Def drop. I shouldn't have to use a Clear Body poke (who all don't like taking an Earth Power to the face from a Base 120 Special Attack.)
You guys are like political pundits, calling it luck when it's clearly not. If I had an 80% chance to win ten million dollars playing the lottery, no one would call it luck to win, so stop calling it luck.
Call it what it is, overpowered.
an 80% chance of something happening is luck? You are right, just the other day the weatherman said "there is an 80% chance of rain today, so if we are lucky, it will rain." It's probably going to rain.
It's not luck, it's "very likely." I could care less about anything else, a base 120 STAB move with an 80% chance for a 'pseudo-nasty plot' is more than enough to make it uber. You could just switch out, to get rid of the Sp.Def drop, but that's more than likely going to result in your switch taking "a base 120 STAB move with an 80% chance for a 'pseudo-nasty plot."
Yeah and Unaware makes Scizors SD's null while Bibarel is in, it doesn't mean it matters.
Infernape doesn't have 120 Sp.Atk, he only beats Skymin's base Atk by 1. Infernape doesn't have 127 speed, or 100 HP. Infernape has worse defenses in both categories, what were we comparing again? Infernape has counters. Infernape doesn't need flinches to beat Blissey, stop saying stupid things, your comparison isn't working. Nothing(barring Clear Bodies) switching into Infernape is going to take a two stage Sp.Def Drop, then be outsped, and then likely ko'd even though they resist all of the attacks.
My Skymin "check" works awesome, as long as he doesn't switch into a 2 Stage Sp. Def drop. I shouldn't have to use a Clear Body poke (who all don't like taking an Earth Power to the face from a Base 120 Special Attack.)
You guys are like political pundits, calling it luck when it's clearly not. If I had an 80% chance to win ten million dollars playing the lottery, no one would call it luck to win, so stop calling it luck.
Call it what it is, overpowered.
You are not factoring in accuracy with those calculations. It's been repeated many times throughout the thread, but neither of these moves is completely accuracte, and when you calculate that in the chances don't look nearly as scary.
The comparison works perfectly. It shows how much Skymin needs those special effects to be at all threatening. Seed Flare is an awful STAB in the current OU environment, and all it's other attacks are low base power. You'd be surprised at what can eat it's attacks at times. Between it's SR weak and merely decent defenses, if Skymin doesn't get the flinches it goes down.
Yes, because ScarfTran is really scared of Seed Flare. All Scizor is scared of is Air Slash. Metagross can likely take an Earth Power with some EV investment (and maybe without, I haven't run calcs). Zapdos with HP Ice crushes Skymin. Cradily in SS wrecks with Rock Slide. And these are just a few examples of what checks it. The current metagame is perfectly structured to accomodate Skymin. It's not THAT dangerous.
Lets assume that you get the Seed Flare drop on a Bliss on the switch. It's likely packing Ice Beam. You now have to hope that you get Air Slash Flinches or it will OHKO you. In other words, LUCK. Skymin NEEDS these things to happen. If they don't, it is vulnerable. Again, once you factor in accuracy issues it's not as scary anymore, and drops and flinches (much less multiples) get less likely.
Then why aren't Jirachi and Togekiss overpowered? They have solid defenses, better typing, healing, and para-fusion, which is way more deadly than simple flinchhax. If you are going to argue Skymin, you need to argue these as well. The fact of the matter is that Skymin is not that hard to deal with. It's scary on paper, and takes getting used to, but is far from unmanagable.
For the record, I was always against the banning of Garchomp, even though I had never used one.
The chances are the same as Fire Blast on Heatran, which is the staple Heatran move, and rarely seems to miss. Fire Blast still has a 10% chance of burning the opponent, just like Seed Flare has an 80% chance of dropping special defense by two stages.
In an OU environment where Bulky waters are abundant, Grass is an awful STAB? Maybe we should wait until the metagame changes a bit, and then do something about it? Until then, lets force people to accomadate Skymin by running things that are super resistant to grass. Would this be the chicken or the egg?
The current metagame is structured in part to counter Skymin, which is over-centralizing. Sure it's not THAT dangerous to a team of Scizor, Heatran, Zapdos and Cradily(wtf?) so then everybody will have to use a team of Zapdos, Scizor, Heatran and Cradily? I thought the goal was a more open, better metagame, not the same combination of pokes that everyone will need to use to get anywhere.
Again, even a 60% chance is more than likely. It's not LUCK, it's statistics. Every time I've ever been swept by a Togekiss Flinchhax, I angrily think to myself "effing luck." It's not Luck, it's statistics. You've got it backwards, BLISSEY is LUCKY if she can get off an Ice Beam before dying.
Steel is a completely shitty STAB. Togekiss simply lacks the speed to be as effective as Skymin. Flinchax is a bitch, but when paired with a 2 stage sp def drop, it's ridiculous.
In all honesty, I want the little bugger banned because it annoys my charlie angels team to no end. However, it is definately not. I believe that if there was a perfect system for determining pokemon for OU or ubers that this would definately go to OU, but as it is the system is definitely without it's flaws because people who can handle skymin will obviously get better ratings, which means that the amount of people who are going to vote it OU is going to increase.
Yes, Seed Flare still has an 80% chance to lower SpD, if it hits. When you combine the chance of it hitting with the chance of a SpD drop, you get 0.8*0.85 = 0.68... a 68% chance of causing the SpD fall every time you choose to use Seed Flare. Much more manageable number than the 80% chance you like to repeatedly cite.Automatic said:
In a metagame where Steel and Flying types are abundant, yes, Grass is a terrible attacking type. In OU, Grass hits:Automatic said:
• 8 pokemon x2 super effective
• 1 pokemon x4 super effective
On the flip side:
• 12 pokemon resist it x2.
• 7 pokemon resist it x4.
So yes, Grass is a shitty attacking type in OU, with nearly as many pokemon resisting it x4 as are hit super effectively with it.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that Skymin, sitting happy as a bunny at #10, is what causes Scizor, Heatran and Zapdos to be so popular? Zapdos gained an invaluable fire type move with Heat Wave, allowing it to be a very deadly sweeper against any team without a Blissey. It also serves as a great counter to Scizor, who arguably gained the most from Platinum with Bullet Punch, meaning it is easily the best late game cleaner in OU. Heatran is also an excellent check against Scizor's threat, and I would like to mention here that it was well on its way to #1 during the Garchomp testing phase on the suspect ladder, months before Skymin even existed.Automatic said:
Skymin is so low in usage because of these pokemon; not the other way around.
OK, I've really had enough of all your claims of how Blissey is 'lucky' to survive a face off with Skymin. I am going to use an example of the worst case scenario of what would happen to Blissey switching into a Skymin.Automatic said:
Assume Blissey is running 80/176 Calm with Leftovers (the most common set), and Skymin is Timid with Leftovers (once again the most common set - check your stats).
First, for this to hold any weight at all, Blissey needs to come in on Seed Flare. So 1 in 4 moves. Seed Flare has to hit and get the SpD drop (68%), and Seed Flare does an average of 18.3% damage to Blissey (87.7% health left, -2 SpD). After the SpD drop, Seed Flare does an average of 36.6% damage. So we need to get Blissey into the kill range with Air Slash, which does an average of 16.6% damage taking Leftovers into consideration. So to get Blissey from 87.7% health to 36.6% health, you need to get at least 3 flinch hits from Air Slash. Even after this, Blissey still has almost 50% chance to survive the final Seed Flare.
And all that Blissey needs to OHKO Shaymin-S is one Ice Beam.
So the chance of Skymin beating Blissey with Seed Flares and Air Slashes is:
(Seed Flare hitting and getting the drop) * (3 successful Air Slash hits and flinches) * (Seed Flare hitting)
0.68 * 0.57 * 0.57 * 0.57 * 0.85 = 0.107
So Blissey has roughly a 10% chance of losing to Skymin 1 on 1. That's twice as unlikely as any Garchomp counter hitting it in Sandstorm.
I really don't think a 90% chance to beat the opposing pokemon can be classed as 'luck'.
Oh, and
I used Shaymin-S for 3 days on one of my accounts, trying out the Life Orb sweeper, Specs Min and the Sub Seeder. Frankly, I found it underwhelming and have not touched it since.KingFresh said:
Now I have 4 accounts eligible for Skymin voting, 2 of which are in the top 50, one of which is in the top 20. I think I'm plenty 'good' without Shaymin-S, thank you.
LR.
Just the fact that someone who thinks this may have the opportunity to vote is a little horrifying.Automatic said:
I also suggest you stay the fuck out of this thread if you're going to resort to
childish bullshit like "changing quoted usernames"
KingFresh said:
who are you people and why are you on this website? nice attitude but maybe you should focus on making some actually strong points, considering that the Subseed set you're calling "invincible" was used less than a quarter of the time last month and that most of your arguments regarding it could be (and have been) applied to Sceptile, who is not even OU.
As much as you are hyping Skymin, the rest of the community does not seem to agree with you, otherwise it would be #1 on usage.
Umm, you're saying that a lot of choice scarfers can't reach at least 389 speed? That's just plain wrong. The minimum you need is base 70 Speed, and you can outspeed Skymin with a Choice Scarf. It's really not that hard, and definitely not "overcentralizing" (do you even know what that means or are you just saying that?)
Sigh....you have lost a lot of credibility with this statement. If you actually think that SubSeed Skymin is invincible, then explain how the hell people have been beating it.
Why would you Seed Flare Registeel? Do you even know what Registeel's ability is?
No it's not.
That's not what checking is. A check is something that's not a full counter, but can still generally handle the threat. Eg. Zapdos is a check for Skymin. It's not a full counter due to HP Ice, but Skymin is going to be hard pressed to stay in if Zapdos comes in on anything but Seed Flare. On paper, Zapdos may be coming into Seed Flare every single time, but in a battle, that just isn't the case.
Why would anyone want to Air Slash something using Ice Shard? Don't you know that Ice Shard is a priority move, and the user won't be flinched when they use it?
Uhh lol I've qualified on 2 accounts using a team without Skymin. Only on my 3rd account did I use a team with Skymin, and coincidentally, that account has the lowest rating of the 3.
Who the hell do you think you are trying to tell every Skymin user that they're stupid? You think that just because people don't agree with you that they're inferior in your eyes? This is a rather big slap in the face to those who want to vote OU, and if you think you can come in this thread and try to bully people, think again.
Think about what you just said in the bolded statement. Infernape is actually BETTER than Skymin from what you just said.
You know why? Infernape has an ACTUAL Nasty Plot! It doesn't need to rely on a pseudo-nasty plot to win. It can raise its Special Attack by 2 stages, and keep it like that provided that it doesn't switch out. If something switches out of Skymin, Seed Flare is going to have to lower the Special Defense each time for Skymin to pose the same threat as it did before. With only 8 PP, this is not going to be very possible.
So yes, nothing that is switching into Infernape is going to be taking a -2 SDef drop. They're going to be taking a +2 SAtk hit. That way, Clear Body cannot stop Infernape either.
Also, Infernape has much better typing than Skymin, so that easily compensates for the lower defenses. No 4x weaknesses makes a big difference.
As has been said, 68% chance of lowering Spec. Def. when factoring in accuracy. That's a but over half, and with Skymin's weaknesses, if it DOESN'T get it it's screwed. I'm not saying 68% chance is bad. However, it's far from every time like you imply.
Really? The metagame is made by the changes in movesets made with the release of Platinum and the banning of Garchomp. Heatran was already at the top, Scizor got an amazing boost with Bullet Punch, Zapdos got Heat Wave, Salamence got Outrage, etc. Steel has always been a popular type with it's great resistances and good stable of Pokemon. Grass hits bulky waters, but that's ALL it hits. As Legacy Raider showed, almost as many in OU are 4x resistant to Grass as there as Pokemon 2x weak to it alone.
Again, why do you think Zapdos, Heatran, etc are there just to counter Skymin? These were already incredibly popular, and the bonuses to the metagame gave many of them great buffs, increasing their usage. That they counter Skymin is help, but they aren't there TO counter Skymin.
Want more that can take Skymin or something? Dragonite totally shuts it down if it lacks HP Ice, Mamoswine can come in on anything but Seed Flare and force it out with Ice Shard. Weaville can potentially pull that off as well. Equipping a Scarf will often net a kill on Skymin. Seriously, it's FAR from centralizing.
No, Skymin gets lucky if Blissey DOESN'T get off Ice Beam, since the odds stopping Blissey are ridiculously low. See Legacy Raider's post for the number crunch. When you put Skymin in that position, you are making a gamble that will likely not pay off.
I see Iron Head on rare occassions, but a FlinchHax Jirachi usually packs Zen Headbutt and Body Slam , and can heal itself with Wish and Leftovers. Good luck even getting an attack in. Togekiss doesn't NEED the speed. It can Thunder Wave or Body Slam, and like Jirachi, between FlinchHax and paralysis it's rare to get an attack off. It can also Roost it's HP back, removing weaknesses for the turn while it's at it. Unlike Skymin, if they don't get the flinch it's not the end of the world, because they are bulky enough that they don't need to lean on it. If Skymin doesn't get the flinch, whatever is in will likely kill it.
I get the strong feeling you don't have an incredible amount of metagame experience, or started recently, since you don't seem to understand how the current metagame developed.
Lets not forget that Infernape's options are much greater than Skymin's, so it can run physical and mixed alongside special. There exists a SR lead set for it, Encore sets...the list goes on. The fact that Infernape lags behind Shaymin-S by only 2 usage spots, and it does so without having to be ridiculously broken, proves that Skymin is just another pokemon with the Serene Grace ability.
The Nasty Plot analogy isn't the best. Infernape's Nasty Plot may work 100% of the time with Skymin's "Nasty Plot" working only 68%, but Infernape's Nasty Plot isn't a 120 BP STAB attack with 85% accuracy, though its Fire Blast is. On the other hand, Fire Blast has a much better type, so it sort of balances out.
I'm a little late, but...
Garchomp would take out a Pokemon on your team on the average and everyone needed a revenge killer just to smite him down. Now, that revenge killer needed two things, Bulk and Power- a combination of which existed on very few Pokemon and you needed one on your team to keep Garchomp away. I won't mention Ice Shard as the fear of Garchomp using a Yache Berry and/or a Sandstream made it more of a thing that would strike fear into Ice Shard users. Garchomp could also hit on both sides of the attacking specturm, eliminating Skarmory, Bronzong, Foretress and Scizor, three Steel types that could take an Earthquake (or avoid it) and actaully do something to it (Scizor could revenge kill it with a Quick Attack, however, its Swampert-ish defenses only made it viable if Garchomp was to drop to about 30% of its HP.
From what I know, Blissey has about a 19% chance to lose against Skymin, isn't that the same chance of your +2 Dragon Dance Gyarados losing to a Zapdos because of Stone Edge's accuracy?
DDTyranitar based teams guarentee the win, as do DDGyarados, AgiliGross, Baton Pass chains, Stall and Offensive based teams. Of course if your team is centalized around it, it'll have a nice win ratio.
@Both of you- From what I'm seeing, you both are afraid of what think will sweep through your opponent's team when it's only luck that causes a loss to occur. You're so unskilled that you try to get rid of anything that you think is unfit for the metagame, tossing things out that wouldn't even fit on it. I mean, you mention who fast Skymin is, but, you fail to mention its fraility. You mention how SubSeed variants are "invincible under a Sandstorm" but, so many people have been beating them, explain that. Honestly, I think that you two want the metagame to be personalized to what fits you best, not, allowing it to grow and actually find ways that around what requires such little thought.
No one takes a cheap shot at me and gets away with it T_T.
I tried Shaymin-S a few times on a team that actually supported its various sets. I've used SubSeed, Choice Specs, Substitute Attacker, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Growth, I even went as far as tossing Quick Attack in on a set once. It just... it just relied to much on luck to win and as a result, I ended up losing most of my matches with it. Without it, I noticed how much my team was better without it >_<.
Heatran doesn't need to rely on that burn occouring most of the time. In fact, all Heatran needs to worry about is Fire Blast hitting things that can OHKO it (same accuracy of Seed Flare); however, Heatran can actually take a hit if needed and doesn't suffer from the "4 moveslot syndrome" as Skymin does.
Oh yeah? To my knowledge, Steels and Flying types are just as common. You also forget about the large amount of Sandstorm teams which also wear Skymin down easily.
Mmkay, let's talk about how everyone needed to overcentralize on Garchomp and compare that to Skymin.
Garchomp would take out a Pokemon on your team on the average and everyone needed a revenge killer just to smite him down. Now, that revenge killer needed two things, Bulk and Power- a combination of which existed on very few Pokemon and you needed one on your team to keep Garchomp away. I won't mention Ice Shard as the fear of Garchomp using a Yache Berry and/or a Sandstream made it more of a thing that would strike fear into Ice Shard users. Garchomp could also hit on both sides of the attacking specturm, eliminating Skarmory, Bronzong, Foretress and Scizor, three Steel types that could take an Earthquake (or avoid it) and actaully do something to it (Scizor could revenge kill it with a Quick Attack, however, its Swampert-ish defenses only made it viable if Garchomp was to drop to about 30% of its HP.
What the fuck are you walking about? Serene Grace abusers such as Togekiss are using luck >_>. A 40% chance of no flinch isn't likely, it's actually luck.
From what I know, Blissey has about a 19% chance to lose against Skymin, isn't that the same chance of your +2 Dragon Dance Gyarados losing to a Zapdos because of Stone Edge's accuracy?
Steel gets crappy coverage, yes, but nothing is immune to it and it has a higher chance of a flinch than Zen Headbutt. Besides Jirachi doesn't mind not getting a flinch or, a misprediction. Togekiss can eliminate its Speed problem with Thunder Wave or Body Slam >_>. Togekiss is much bulkier with a reliable healing option.
So, you're telling me that you suck so much that you'll have to resort to luck to win a battle?
And? I could beat this and that person 70 times with 5 loses using a Choice Scarf Togekiss... your point is...?
Mmkay, so, who in the right mind would keep a Water type in, pure Water by going by what you're saying, on a Skymin? With that said, who has a team that only has only way to take it out (and that way would be risky as fuck)?
DDTyranitar based teams guarentee the win, as do DDGyarados, AgiliGross, Baton Pass chains, Stall and Offensive based teams. Of course if your team is centalized around it, it'll have a nice win ratio.
Exactly, all facts against Skymin becoming Uber were said in this thread and proven on Shoddy.
I'll reply to this at the end of this post, so, continue reading.
I'll use Gyarados and Ninjask as examples; With Gyarados, you'll need something bulky that can 3HKO/2HKO/OHKO it providing that Gyarados doesn't commonly carry a move that anihalates it >_>. With Ninjask and Baton Pass Chains in general, you'll need something with Roar/Whirlwind most of the time. You see, any viable threat will need some type of preperation beforehand.
So, if I may say this, again, what would be the other move Skymin would use on a SubSeeder set? I used Earth Power/Air Slash for maximum coverage when I ran mine. With Seed Flare's shitty coverage, low PP and small chance of a miss, I'd never use it >_>. Seed Flare + Earth Power causes Skymin to have problems with other Grass types and Scizor while Seed Flare + Air Slash gives Metagross, Heatran and most Steels and anything not weak to Seed Flare a free switch in and possibly the chance to mess Skymin up (Skarmory anyone? :/). Skymin's lack of coverage on a SubSeeder set would most likely be its down fall.
Um... Clear Body? And wouldn't the Registeel user be smart enough to bring something to stop a threat such as Heatran?
Not true, the most common Choice Scarf users are in fact faster considering how many of them run a Spd+ nature. Tyranitar and Magnezone are the only ones who are outsped >_>. Besdies, how does it "counter" these said sweepers? It's nearly incapable of getting a free switch in if it's not immune or, resistant to whatever attack is being used.
You didn't even read most of my post, did you? You picked the one thing that you could use a Substitute to hide behind... you do realize that I was refering to Skymin without a Substitute... right? Otherwise, I would've just said "This can break its Substitute and Ice Shard away".
That's actually more true than you try and make it not seem >_>.
Actually, yes. That's like Stone Edge missing or hitting and getting a critical hit.
You know, when Skymin first came out, I said the same thing about a "pseudo Nasty Plot", the problem is that Skymin won't have much to use it against unless your opponent totally forgot about trying to check Skymin during the time they took to build their team. Dare I mention the somewhat low chance of that happening?
How many Unaware Bibarel users do you see in OU? Especially with the advent of Curse to its movepool.
My point exactly. Where certain Pokemon do not rely on luck to survive the next turn, Skymin does.
Most Pokemon who can counter Skymin aren't OHKO'd by Earth Power and can't be Flinch haxed to death.
Luck is getting past the gaps of what's already placed in front of you to see, making the unlikely happen. Critical hits are luck, hence the ability "Super Luck". Seed Flare hitting and getting the Special Defense drop is luck. Air Slash flinching is luck.
So, anything abusing luck is overpowered, huh? Togekiss, Jirachi and Froslass (I've been using that annoyer set greatly O_O) as well as others are broken, too?
@Both of you- From what I'm seeing, you both are afraid of what think will sweep through your opponent's team when it's only luck that causes a loss to occur. You're so unskilled that you try to get rid of anything that you think is unfit for the metagame, tossing things out that wouldn't even fit on it. I mean, you mention who fast Skymin is, but, you fail to mention its fraility. You mention how SubSeed variants are "invincible under a Sandstorm" but, so many people have been beating them, explain that. Honestly, I think that you two want the metagame to be personalized to what fits you best, not, allowing it to grow and actually find ways that around what requires such little thought.
No one takes a cheap shot at me and gets away with it T_T.
All I know is that skymin is not powerful.
Have you people that wants to ban it seen warstories with it being really useful? Well, I haven't either is get completely outpredicted or it just fails to KO something with its moves that provide coverage. I mean seriously, actually try to find a warstory with skymin active.
I mean look at its other moves, all you people focus is on seed flare.
Earth power:90bp
air slash:75bp without STAB, STAB:112.5
HP:70
Look how poor it is!
Have you people that wants to ban it seen warstories with it being really useful? Well, I haven't either is get completely outpredicted or it just fails to KO something with its moves that provide coverage. I mean seriously, actually try to find a warstory with skymin active.
I mean look at its other moves, all you people focus is on seed flare.
Earth power:90bp
air slash:75bp without STAB, STAB:112.5
HP:70
Look how poor it is!
- Status