More Emphasis on Doubles for Nintendo's Tournaments

[Tangerine]

While we consider singles to be the most "competitive" form of Pokemon, I do believe that we should consider catering to the Double battle Metagame, partly because it is the metagame that is recognized by Nintendo. It is a good way for Smogon to expand itself by providing tips, tricks, and analysis for the upcoming series of Nintendo Tournaments. I don't see why we haven't cashed in on this yet if we are to increase the number of people visiting the site.

This can be done through a single article, or of course pages of doubles analysis. However, for our purposes I believe a single section in the site with a few articles will suffice.

 

[Alex Practice]

Isn't SB2 supposed to have 2v2 support? Patience, friend :B

And I'm sure that SOMEBODY is working on a 2v2 strategy dex. People here are really stoked about articles, and there are a lot of great 2v2 resources that helped me pull 3rd in my first ever tournament (losing to Trick Room, so I don't feel ashamed or that the primer let me down. :P)

 

[Tangerine]

You're missing the point. The point is that it's not emphasized enough - I believe a major tournament deserves its own section. The fact that SB 2 will have 2v2 support is irrelevant.

 

[alive]

The main thing needing to be taught is getting people out of the singles OU mindset and into one of doubles. There is a pretty significant shift from what works, what styles of play (I'd really like to see someone try stalling), and in some cases even the mechanics of moves change. Doubles I believe would definitely merit it's own tier list, maybe another tab in the analysis section right before "Moves" where there would be one or two sets or maybe tips to help teach how to use them effectively in Doubles.

Good idea though.

 

[Misty]

The trouble with DP 2v2 is that we really have no idea what it's supposed to be like. Without a good simulator, we can't really test strategies. Yeah, there are some general principles, and that could make a decent article, but without a feel for how DP 2v2 works, it's impossible to go into much detail without just putting up a bunch of theorymon (and you can look at the old analyses to see how much value theorymon has).

 

[Veedrock]

Our singles pages are only just in the transition of moving into focusing on teams. Doubles has a large emphasis on specific roles and the team as a whole as opposed to the emphasis on individual pokemon seen in singles. I really don't see how we can put up individual pokemon analyses when it's entirely dependant on everything else involved. A team has to build around a certain strategy (unlike singles where it can build around a certain pokemon), and coving individual pokemon just does not do that. Perhaps a series of pages covering each strategy (Trick Room, Goodstuff, etc) which can touch on the pokemon involved, but there's just so little that can be obtained from looking at a pokemon alone. A Slowbro page can mention trick room, but then you have to worry about surf hitting your partner, taunts and fake outs, all kinds of factors that just too much to really hit on because it's no longer 1 v 1.

Like Misty said, right now we don't know gimmick from what works and could only theorymon. When Shoddybattle 2 comes out this seems much more practical as the metagame will evolve more readily and we can see everything ourselves, but until then it'll be a mess. While it's a cool idea and think it should be done, it just doesn't seem plausible right now and can't focus individually.

 

[Tangerine]

By the time shoddy battle 2 is out, it's too late.

Like I said, I have no doubt we will have doubles pages once SB 2 is out. What matters is that we have some useful information archived for Nintendo's tournaments.

We are a competitive site, however, does it matter if we're off doing out own thing and show no recognition to the only recognized pokemon tournament?

 

[Caelum]

I agree a bit of Double Tournament stuff could be interesting, but I don't think (at this point) analysis for pokemon are feasible.

I'd like to see someone complete / update / expand this work Double Battle Strategies. I'd do it myself, but I've never played doubles =/

 

[Aeolus]

I'm not sure how we can write a competent article up to our standards if we have 0 experience with the 2vs2 game. It does eventually need to happen, however.

 

[Caelum]

I'm not sure how we can write a competent article up to our standards if we have 0 experience with the 2vs2 game. It does eventually need to happen, however.

I disagree, we already have a double battle primer on-site ( http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/double_battles ) so maybe MaskedNinjasker can help. I could try bumping the old thread I linked above and see if we have any volunteers to update a strategy guide as was started on by MN.

 

[Tangerine]

I'm not sure how we can write a competent article up to our standards if we have 0 experience with the 2vs2 game. It does eventually need to happen, however.

There are people who frequent double battling. I'm pretty sure we can bring out the people, or at least, develop a niche for it. It'll give us another edge over other sites, if anything. I don't see why we can't promote it, especially since now these tournaments are going to be held regularly.

 

[Yuri]

When Shoddy Battle 2 is out I'll definitely take a spin on DPP doubles. My experience is limited to ADV doubles but I guess I can theorymon well enough. To tell the truth, I was planning on posting some ADV 2x2 analysis.

The current Dex has some small problems with the concept since a Pokémon's usefulness, tier and niche may be widely different from singles (example: Dusclops). One thing I thought and was actually already suggested was making a separate tab in the analyses for 2x2, but it is too soon for that and I'd rather have the Dex's structure untouched if possible.

 

[matty]

Doesn't this fall under the same problem of my Little Cup Suggestion? Lots of work ahead to get it started, except there are priority projects ahead of it currently.

We have more important issues to focus on at the moment but that doesn't mean this project can't be completed in the future. Especially since there isn't even a simulator ready for 2v2 battling, I say we hold off until SB2 comes out and even then wait a bit before we sort out that metagame.

 

[Misty]

I am all for developing our 2v2 knowledge base; I just don't think it's worthwhile until we can play 2v2 with a simulator - WiFi is too limited.

 

[Havak]

I'm all for 2vs2 as I'm an avid player on PBR Wi-Fi and DS Wi-Fi, ahead of the Pokémon Video Game World Championships. We could easily start a project in the near future if we wish, but with everything else going on, it's probably not worth it right now - even though I wish it was..

Reason being - we can't play it on a simulator now and we all know that's the most efficient way to do things. I hate to say it, but Little Cup would probably get priority over this because it is played a lot on Simulators already, where as doubles evidently is not.

Once Shoddy has double battles and they're working correctly, this project should see a lot of attention and I'd love to help out with it.

 

[User 12783]

StarmanXL is one great double battles player, from what I've heard and from how well some of his double battle teams are built. We have a few other select double battle players, and it's starting to become a WiFi craze, and while we're hosting those VGC tournaments, champions are sure to help with this.

 

[Great Sage]

I'm up for this if someone with substantial doubles experience volunteers to lead this.

 

[durp]

Yeah, I was hoping for a article section on doubles.
Oh and thanks Caelum for that Thread. Never saw it before.

 

[Caelum]

Unless Misty is opposed to it, I'm going to try to get some people to help update, revise, improve, and finish the Double Battle Strategies article. I agree that full, entire analysis aren't pratical right now without a suitable simulator; but an article on general strategies would suffice at this point.

If there aren't any objections, I may also try to get a group of people to help update our move descriptions with 2 vs 2 information. That should be simple enough.

 

[Misty]

Go for it.

 

[Havak]

I'd be happy to help with that Caelum, wherever possible.

 

[Caelum]

You have double battle experience Havak right? If you think you are up for it, you can create a thread (unless you feel you can update it yourself) trying to recruit other people to help you improve / modify / complete the article I listed above. It's obviously better that someone with double battles experience (like yourself) organize it as opposed to me, so go for it.

edit: and anyone willing to help: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55016

 

[Havak]

Yeh, I have double battle experience - although I've only really been playing a few months (5 months tops). I'd still be willing to commandeer the thread though, so I'll get working on it. After reading the original thread properly, I don't think there's too much that needs changing, it's just a matter of adding more. I'll try and get a team together to do that.

 

[StarmanXL]

StarmanXL is one great double battles player, from what I've heard and from how well some of his double battle teams are built.

Haha, I wouldn't say I was a great battler, per se, just a more noticeable one, if you will. Not to say I'm bad, but I've run into a good number of battlers way better than I (and my teams are really quite bland, to tell you the truth).

Anyway, I'd be all for helping this out, although I must admit that lacking a reliable simulator hinders this greatly (Netbattle just has far too many critical bugs to make it a valid medium for gathering information). I don't think this can really take off until SB2 comes out and fixes the inevitable bugs, but I think we can start with adding 2v2 effects to move descriptions, but beyond that, I do not know.

Oh, and another thing; I doubt this was the intent but I think that we should avoid making this seem completely centered around VGC since not everyone plays that and I'm bit afraid that it might discourage venturing off into our own sort of metagame, although I might just be paranoid. Besides, I'm kinda worried that any sort of interest in doubles and development would only happen around tournament time.

 

[ungulateman]

I'll join this proposed project if it gets anywhere.