Moody

[Enlong]

Oh thanks! I'll just run sweet scent on my Venusaur and all my problems will be solved! He might get to set up his attack, speed, defense, special defense, and special attack all to +6, but at least he will have normal evasion!

Anyways, I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but there's this move called Taunt. It makes it so you can't Roar or Whirlwind or Haze pokemon. All of the perfect accuracy moves have the weakest power, so once you switch in your pokemon and wait a turn while it protects, it's defenses are most likely high enough so you can't even break it's substitutes.

Why don't we just bring Rayquaza back to OU because I can think of a few moves that can kill it.

None of the moves I alluded to were Sweet Scent, just so you know. Over half a dozen separate counters, and you latch onto Sweet Scent. I don't very much appreciate the absolute worst response to Evasion being the only one mentioned in response to what I was saying. You're better than that.

In any case, my rant probably did not belong here per se, because I was mostly... OK, entirely talking about Evasion on its own instead of Inconsistent. And I apologize for that.

Meh. I run a more unorthodox strategy, I guess, so I usually don't protect first unless I am really desperate. And besides, Jaroda has better things to do and run than try to Gastro Acid one pokemon. I suppose you can make a Gastro Acid argument, but overall IMO it seems rather lacking.

Oh, well maybe I'm wrong about the usual strategy. Anyway, if you want to rid them of Inconsistent, Erufun will probably do better. Worry Seed and Taunt will wreck them. Especially if, as Opacity alludes to, they're using three non-attacking moves. Or, again, adopt the use of Clear Smog or something. Jaroda was just oneiea I was entertaining at the moment.

 

[deiphobus]

I'm going to fly off the topic of Inconsistent for a moment. Please forgive me, and feel free to ignore this if you'd rather stay on-topic.

On the subject of Evasion...

Well, hell, I'm just going to come right out and say it this time. How many goddamned counters to evasion do they need to add to the game, huh? We've got three different moves, each one given to a completely different subset of 'mons, that eliminate every evasion boost, past and future, on the targeted 'mon. Those ones were introduced in the 3rd gen. We've got a metric ton of moves with perfect accuracy, including one with 90 power, which is considered useful on everything that can learn it. We have a move that sharply drops Evasion for 3 turns. We've got moves to eliminate all stat boosts, including one that has perfect accuracy and only harms the opponent! We've got moves that flat-out ignore Evasion boosts in every way! We have an Ability that makes all moves hit, given to a very powerful 'mon! We have two different moves that boost attack and accuracy at the same time, meaning that the Evasion user is the one fighting an uphill battle!

What else do you need?!

Did you read the thread? Most of these things are very situational counters, like perfect accuracy moves. Few pokemon have aura sphere, and moves like shock wave are virtually useless in competitive battling because they're so weak, unless you're using a technician aerial ace. Using Haze is almost always inferior to phazing. Also, note that Inconsistent has a 1/7 chance to boost evasion sharply. While you're trying to Claw Sharpen with your Blaziken or whatever, Octillery can Surf you to death while potentially raising its evasion double the rate of your accuracy raising.

Either way, if inconsistent pokemon can randomly sweep teams, and you need very specific counters that are hardly used, it overcentralizes the game on an almost completely luck based strategy, which I think is unfair.

Exactly how cheap this strategy though, and should it be banned, I don't know, and should be tested.

 

[Enlong]

Who in the hell would send in a Blaziken against Octillery? If you're doing that, then honestly, you're dumb and deserve to lose that Blaziken.

(fire type against a Water type, I ask you.)

And anyway, as I said before, that rant was ill-placed. This is not the place to talk about Evasion as a singular thing, which is what that rant was. That requires its own thread.

 

[SJCrew]

+6 glalie Earthquake vs 252/252 bold suicune: 38.6% - 45.5%

Stuff like this is what I feared from the very start, especially from the likes of Skarmory and Hippowdon, so I run 252 Att Adamant instead to give him a fighting chance. Be realistic, what are you walling with a pure Ice type and 80/80/80 Defenses? Absolutely nothing.

+6 EQ w/max Att Adamant: 55.9% - 65.8%

Much better.

You can go Brave for mixed if you want, with Ice Beam and EQ (actually sounds like a cool idea were it not for the threat of Blissey issues and the Latis setting up). Regardless Glalie really wants his targets KOed; trying to stall will only end in tears and frustration.

 

[Arc Tech]

He only needs to 3hko anyway because it's rest.

 

[Smasher89]

Quagsire ignores this ability I think completly(when unaware gets released). And getting less speed is not going to help your sweep.

 

[Arc Tech]

Unaware does not affect speed boosts. I'm not sure if it affects evasion boosts, Smogon's description only says attack and defense boosts, but we don't normally play with evasion so I could see that being omitted. Plus all the unaware pokes get toxic-stalled to death.

 

[StarBomber109]

Mold breaker doesn't work on inconsistent, they still have those boosts and I think they are still generated.

 

[Arc Tech]

Mold breaker doesn't work on inconsistent, they still have those boosts and I think they are still generated.

Of course it doesn't. Mold breaker only allows moves to hit pokemon that they normally wouldn't hit becuase of abilities, ie fire vs flash fire, ground vs levitate. It does not nullify abilities.

 

[blasphemy1]

Erufuun @ Leftovers
Ability: Mischievous Heart
Nature: Impish
EV: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Stun Spore
- Taunt
- Memento
- Leech Seed

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: Inconsistent
Nature: Modest
EV: 252 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 44 SpD / 164 Spe
- Surf
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect

This combo has potential to be really, really annoying. Stun Spore or Taunt something with Erufuun, then priority Memento. Send in Octillery. If the opponent is faster, Protect, if slower, Substitute. Get your boosts and sweep. The EVs on Octillery give it equal defenses and enough speed to outrun Garchomp after +2 speed.

 

[SMZ]

Wow, I've honestly been underestimating this ability, until I played PO and faced several Octillery. The evasion boosts are particularly annoying.

@blasphemy1 your combo looks interestingly annoying, have you tried it?

 

[blasphemy1]

Wow, I've honestly been underestimating this ability, until I played PO and faced several Octillery. The evasion boosts are particularly annoying.

@blasphemy1 your combo looks interestingly annoying, have you tried it?

I have used it to decent success. My main problem is: my lack of solid team building outside of these two, and my lack of skill as a player. Otherwise, it is very solid. You can use Memento on stuff like Roobushin (naturally slower than Octillery and -2 Mach Punch doesn't do much), Urugamosu, Shandera, etc and proceed to set up. Leech Seed is mainly filler but sometimes I get a free turn and if they don't switch out it helps Octillery recover some HP.

 

[outofdashdwz]

I have used it to decent success. My main problem is: my lack of solid team building outside of these two, and my lack of skill as a player. Otherwise, it is very solid. You can use Memento on stuff like Roobushin (naturally slower than Octillery and -2 Mach Punch doesn't do much), Urugamosu, Shandera, etc and proceed to set up. Leech Seed is mainly filler but sometimes I get a free turn and if they don't switch out it helps Octillery recover some HP.

I've used the exact set for a while now, except Erufuun @ Focus Sash and Tailwind over Leech Seed. Like you said, it's mostly filler but I've found Tailwind to be better utility in general. Along with those 2, I also use an Aqua Ring + Wish passing Vaporeon for support, as a slow Baton Pass is really helpful for Inconsistent users and Aqua Ring is extremely helpful when the Weather starts hitting you. TSpikes support is also nice, and with both Octillery and Vaporeon on the team, I run Roserade to resist both their weaknesses and for sleep + hazard support. Oh and I also have Bibarel on the team for shits and giggles :)

EDIT:
Oh, and my Octillery spread is Bold @ 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spd, since the things that generally give Octillery trouble are physically based and I find running Modest doesn't do too much for you versus the option for an easier set up.

 

[TransparentOpacity]

None of the moves I alluded to were Sweet Scent, just so you know. Over half a dozen separate counters, and you latch onto Sweet Scent. I don't very much appreciate the absolute worst response to Evasion being the only one mentioned in response to what I was saying. You're better than that.

In any case, my rant probably did not belong here per se, because I was mostly... OK, entirely talking about Evasion on its own instead of Inconsistent. And I apologize for that.

I was just showing you that out of the "tons" of moves that can be used against evasion, most of them suck, are rare, or are on worthless pokemon.

 

[Green Thunder]

Inconsistance + parahax = ...FUUUUU....

I wonder how they based this moves distribution, they sure chose some odd pokemanz!
But seriously this ability looks really neat! All the pokemon that get it are pretty slow though so paralasis support would be really useful. Let's not forget about the potenal in double/triples trick room!

Why doesn't porgonz get this?

 

[Nastyjungle]

I will be the first to admit that I completely underestimated this ability from the start, and disregarded it as ho-hum.

However, after playing quite a few inconsistent abusers on PO, I'd have to say this ability is broken; if only for the Evasion boosts. Being able to wall/sweep/stall on a completely luck based ability that requires no skill to use is practically the very definition of broken.

 

[Enlong]

I was just showing you that out of the "tons" of moves that can be used against evasion, most of them suck, are rare, or are on worthless pokemon.

The foresight family alone (which are, again, the best counter to evasion, forcing a switch, unless the evader wants to fight without any evasion at all) can be found on roughly 50 species, across the entire board of the tier lists. And that's just in 4th gen. There are more users of the moves in 5th gen, of course.

Absolutely none of the other methods for fighting Evasion (Like Claw Sharpen, Coil, Aura Sphere, Little By Little, Clear Smog, or Sacred Sword) are as sucky as Sweet Scent. none. Sweet scent is the only Evasion-fighting move that can be dodged, and you need to keep using it every turn. Even Defog is better than Sweet Scent, which is why I didn't mention it. If you're latching onto Sweet Scent as an example of how much Evasion fighting moves "suck"... well, I'm prepared to call that a strawman argument.

Back on topic, what happens if an Inconsistent Pokémon is under the effect of Mist?

 

[petrie911]

I have to be honest, people need to stop bringing up the whole "luck-based" thing. If Inconsistent Pokemon are sweeping on a regular basis, there's not very much luck involved now, is there? If they're not sweeping teams on a regular basis, how is that different from any other sweeper?

Either way, if inconsistent pokemon can randomly sweep teams, and you need very specific counters that are hardly used, it overcentralizes the game on an almost completely luck based strategy, which I think is unfair.

Being able to wall/sweep/stall on a completely luck based ability that requires no skill to use is practically the very definition of broken.

Note how the strength of the argument is in no way weakened by removing references to being "luck-based".

 

[Chou Toshio]

To me, what makes Inconsistent so completely broken is that it completely takes the situation out of the hands of the defending player.

If you are facing Dory, you can switch to Gliscor or Skarm and begin your fight to take it down. Even if you are fighting a Deoxys-A, you can smart switch to get your scarfer in safely and kill it. Even if you are facing Shaymin-S, you can act accordingly. Hell, even if you are fighting a Ho-Oh, you can see it in team preview, go out of your way to setup stealth rocks fast, and attack smart in order to beat it.

Just tell me-- what can you do against Octillery if you don't have Haze just for it?

All you can do is sit there and push the PHAZE (not an option if octillery is last) or Attack button and PRAY you get lucky. The situation is totally taken out of your hands, and it does come down to who gets lucky.

Where the fucky is the skill or competitiveness in that???

I have only been swept by Octillery once out of all 7 or 8 times I've face it-- but I will never forget how stupid, unfair and uncompetitive that one time was (I was winning 5-2 with all my "bulky water" pokemon and scarf revengers still alive). Even the times I won and killed octillery, there was still the sense of frustration that the situation was taken totally out of my hands.

 

[j99ubers]

Foresight allows Rapid Spin to hit Ghosts and the entire Hitmon- family get that combination yet still no one uses it, that gives you an idea of just how bad foresight is.
Lets take a look at the other "counters you've listed"

- Claw Sharpen. A generally poor choice as a move as unless its a pokemon's sole boosting move it wount be seeing much use. Even if it is you're having to use this every turn to make sure you can try and counteract evasion boosts. While your doing this your Claw Sharpener will be KO'd I can guarantee that.

Coil - One of the least well distributed counters you could possibly have listed. The only pokemon who has any business being in OU is Jaroda and until his DW ability is released even he will se little use in OU.

Aura Sphere - Another move with unbelievably poor distribution and with enough Sp.Def boosts this isn't breaking any subs.

Little By Little - I don't know what this move is but if its called A Cappella on PO like I think it is then this doesn't have unfailable accuracy, if its called something else though please tell me.

Clear Smog - No viable pokemon who has access to this would ever use it competitively. The only OU pokemon with access to this are Kingdra and Gengar and being forced to use Clear Smog on them greatly reduces their attacking options.

Sacred Sword - One of the few moves with worse distribution than Aura Sphere. Granted this ignores all boosts so is a decent counter but it can't save them from getting killed by Surfs from Octillery or Smeargle Baton Passing to a Ghost, although I'll say that this is probably the best option you listed but due to the limited userbase can't be considered as a counter on every team.

 

[outofdashdwz]

The foresight family alone (which are, again, the best counter to evasion, forcing a switch, unless the evader wants to fight without any evasion at all) can be found on roughly 50 species, across the entire board of the tier lists. And that's just in 4th gen. There are more users of the moves in 5th gen, of course.

Absolutely none of the other methods for fighting Evasion (Like Claw Sharpen, Coil, Aura Sphere, Little By Little, Clear Smog, or Sacred Sword) are as sucky as Sweet Scent. none. Sweet scent is the only Evasion-fighting move that can be dodged, and you need to keep using it every turn. Even Defog is better than Sweet Scent, which is why I didn't mention it. If you're latching onto Sweet Scent as an example of how much Evasion fighting moves "suck"... well, I'm prepared to call that a strawman argument.

Back on topic, what happens if an Inconsistent Pokémon is under the effect of Mist?

You completely disregarded my response to your post on the last page and then made the same bad argument that "because you can circumvent Evasion boosts, this ability is perfectly fine in the metagame."

That is not what most people are arguing. The more reasonable arguments revolve around the fact that Inconsistent makes Pokemon battling a game of dice, so please stop orbiting around the idea that Evasion is easily circumvented to argue for Inconsistent.

I'm also going to refute your argument about Foresight just for the hell of it. Out of all of the Pokemon that learn Foresight, how many do you think are OU viable? I doubt you're going to be using Odor Sleuth Mightyena to counter Evasion. Out of all of the OU viable Pokemon, how many of them would willingly use Foresight outside of highly specialized countering? Hitmontop? Sure. Blastoise? Maybe. While neither of them are frail by any means, neither has reliable recovery and can't afford to take STAB Surfs/Waterfalls/Returns/Toxics repeatedly, especially from a potentially boosted stat in the mid 400s. Throw in the fact that Foresight and Odor Sleuth can miss, how reliable do you think it is?

I have to be honest, people need to stop bringing up the whole "luck-based" thing. If Inconsistent Pokemon are sweeping on a regular basis, there's not very much luck involved now, is there? If they're not sweeping teams on a regular basis, how is that different from any other sweeper?

Do you honestly believe this? I'm sure you must know the difference between Octillery and something like SD Scizor. Scarf Magnezone will stop SD Scizor's sweep every time, where as Roopushin can't stop a Bibarel every time. This is why "the whole luck-based thing" is brought up so often. Just because Inconsistent can sweep teams consistently (lol oxymoron) doesn't mean there is no luck involved.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Well even talking about enemies that have no good counters. Let's say we were fighting a Palkia with an OU team-- there's still something you can do, some way to fight back, and some way you can strategically take it down.

When facing Octillery, all you can do is pray.

That makes it completely different from any other offensive pokemon, and in a way, makes it even more broken and uncompetitive than the likes of Mewtwo or Rayquaza.

 

[Enlong]

Foresight allows Rapid Spin to hit Ghosts and the entire Hitmon- family get that combination yet still no one uses it, that gives you an idea of just how bad foresight is.

Nobody uses it because Evasion is banned.

The phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind.

You completely disregarded my response to your post on the last page and then made the same bad argument that "because you can circumvent Evasion boosts, this ability is perfectly fine in the metagame."

That is not what most people are arguing. The more reasonable arguments revolve around the fact that Inconsistent makes Pokemon battling a game of dice, so please stop orbiting around the idea that Evasion is easily circumvented to argue for Inconsistent.

I said this twice before, but here it is again. I went wildly off topic with this whole thing about Evasion. I let myself get into a rant, and I ended up talking about Evasion alone, as in Minimize/Double Team, not Inconsistent. I am in no way saying "Foresight beats Inconsistent." I went off topic, and I apologize to anyone who thought I was talking about anything other than Evasion by itself. In fact, I fully understand if you wish to break off this current course of conversation, seeing as it has nothing to do with Inconsistent.

Was that clear enough this time? I'm sorry if I was too ambiguous about it before.

 

[Arc Tech]

Even if evasion were unbanned barely anyone would use its counters, except possibly haze and clear smog, the most viable of the list. Any nevermiss move is just too weak to really damage any bulky evasion abuser, except aura sphere, which has a very limited userpool. Foresight etc waste a moveslot, potentially crippling your sweeper or wall by denying it coverage. Hone claws... is outclassed by swords dance in pretty much every other conceivable way. It is just not enough of a boost to allow a pokemon to sweep, turning your would-be sweeper into a gimmicky evasion counter (gimmick becuase it really doesn't function well against anything else).

Do you really want to have to run one of murkrow, milotic, crobat, weezing, mushy, or a few other select pokemon or have to roll dice that quickly become in favor of your opponent?



To be more on-topic, Evasion is quite simply the icing on the inconsistent cake. It only needs a single boost in the correct defense, or in speed, to become very threatening and start a full out many turn setup, depending upon what is out against it.

 

[deiphobus]

Nobody uses it because Evasion is banned.

The phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind.

And because foresight just sucks.