Pokémon Mienshao

[nkhlshnd99]

Keldeo does not have problems with special walls due to its secret sword move or w/e its called. It's because perm weather/rain is much less common, notice that pretty much usage of ALL water types have gone down. Vaporeon, tentacruel, toxicroak, etc.

A lot of these special walls resist fighting like sylveon and florges.

 

[Shiruba]

I never said that UU = bad. I was predominantly a UU player last gen - why the fuck would I honestly think UU Pokemon are bad? That's a stupid misconception that a lot of people have.

UU DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS BAD. IT JUST MEANS THAT OTHER POKEMON FIT THE OU METAGAME BETTER. THIS HAS BEEN A PSA BY SHIRUBA.

Ah, it was banned? Very well, then. I'd only heard of Politoed and Kyurem-Black being banned.
But yes, I am aware that Infernape hits hard. I also know that Politoed's Specs Hydro Pump hits hard. I also know that Rampardos hits hard. I even know that Mega Gardevoir hits hard!

Something hitting hard is great, but not everything, especially as you saw with Rampardos. You'd be hard-pressed to say that Infernape is honestly above other fighting-types in the tier, or other physical attackers, when its biggest niche last gen - Sun nuke - is gone. Infernape isn't bad, and I'd never said it was, but why would I use it when I can use stronger, faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Mega Lucario? It, too, has a niche, in the form of mixed attacking, possessing U-turn, and being fire/fighting, but the listed Pokemon are generally better/easier to fit on a team in most cases.

A lot of these special walls resist fighting like sylveon and florges.

So what? "Oh, no, it can't break through a Pokemon particularly well, it deserves to be UU!"
And even then...
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Whoops.

And no, they're not UU because they're inferior - they're rated as A in the viability ranking thread. They're UU because most of the ladder is awful and because of shiny new toy syndrome. They're UU because the people playing suck.

 

[NoStatusPlz]

if bisharp is going to stay UU I hope keldeo does as well, it is one of the few good checks to it.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Just like there's a reason Galvantula is OU and Keldeo isn't?
Usage isn't an argument, particularly now. Infernape doesn't deserve to be OU at this point either, particularly when Pokemon like Latias, Keldeo, and Thundurus are allowed in UU.

Simple - Galvantula is the only decent offensive Pokemon with Sticky Web, there are a lot of new (and old) checks for Keldeo and it can no longer rely on rain to run through some of them (making it a ton more reliant on prediction than before so people are reluctant to use it,) Thundurus was OU and its Therian Forme is simply mostly outclassed by it, Latias was screwed over by Fairies and its old sets are bad now (meaning that if you aren't in need of Defog you are probably not using Latias), and Infernape's checks, along with Rain, got a lot less common this generation so it has an easier time doing anything.

On Mienshao itself, yeah, it is pretty much outclassed at the moment. Priority moves are everywhere and they all pretty much demolish Mienshao and its poor 65/60 bulk, it can do nothing to fairies, it is major Aegislash bait and ghost bait in general (Knock off didn't change that tbh), and its movepool is very lacking in viable options to hit Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur. I don't really see a good reason to run Mienshao this generation when there are so many parts of the metagame that are horrendously unkind to it.

 

[nkhlshnd99]

I never said that UU = bad. I was predominantly a UU player last gen - why the fuck would I honestly think UU Pokemon are bad? That's a stupid misconception that a lot of people have.

UU DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS BAD. IT JUST MEANS THAT OTHER POKEMON FIT THE OU METAGAME BETTER. THIS HAS BEEN A PSA BY SHIRUBA.

Ah, it was banned? Very well, then. I'd only heard of Politoed and Kyurem-Black being banned.
But yes, I am aware that Infernape hits hard. I also know that Politoed's Specs Hydro Pump hits hard. I also know that Rampardos hits hard. I even know that Mega Gardevoir hits hard!

Something hitting hard is great, but not everything, especially as you saw with Rampardos. You'd be hard-pressed to say that Infernape is honestly above other fighting-types in the tier, or other physical attackers, when its biggest niche last gen - Sun nuke - is gone. Infernape isn't bad, and I'd never said it was, but why would I use it when I can use stronger, faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Mega Lucario? It, too, has a niche, in the form of mixed attacking, possessing U-turn, and being fire/fighting, but the listed Pokemon are.


So what? "Oh, no, it can't break through a Pokemon particularly well, it deserves to be UU!"
And even then...
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Whoops.

And no, they're not UU because they're inferior - they're rated as A in the viability ranking thread. They're UU because most of the ladder is awful and because of shiny new toy syndrome. They're UU because the people playing suck.

I guess you're right. I love keldeo and have used it on a few of my teams but now I use choice specs latios instead. What you said about shiny toy syndrome is right too. I still see Greninja everywhere and I can't understand why.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Just like there's a reason Galvantula is OU and Keldeo isn't?
Usage isn't an argument, particularly now. Infernape doesn't deserve to be OU at this point either, particularly when Pokemon like Latias, Keldeo, and Thundurus are allowed in UU.

I used Mienshao a lot in BW UU, and it was fantastic with its Scarf set - I liked leading with it if i wasn't sure what the opponent would lead with due to its lightning-fast U-Turn being generally enough to switch to an appropriate counter. XY OU isn't really the best environment, though, particularly due to the sheer power of Ghost-Types, particularly Aegislash, this gen, and the existence of Talonflame and better momentum 'mons like Genesect, not that Hitlerbug has a high chance of remaining OU or anything, and the noticeable trend of the meta taking a bulkier direction overall.

Mienshao does have uses, however. Regenerator + U-Turn is a cool thing that Mienshao can do to preserve momentum without worrying about hazard damage or even Life Orb recoil if you decide to run that. Furthermore, the Knock Off buff is great, especially for Mienshao, whose greatest spam move says "ghosts plz shit on me," which means lots of mind games and even choice bluffing to smash those spectres to kingdom come, or at the very least make them lose their precious items.

tl;dr - While I don't think Mienshao will be OU, it definitely has a unique asset or two to carve out a niche, albeit a rather small one.

Wait, what?

Infernape's presence affects Mienshao's OU usage. Galvantula doesn't affect Keldeo's. Infernape being more generally usable as a scout means you have to have a specific reason to use Mienshao instead. From what has been brought up in the thread (specifically Swamp-Rocket's post), I find it hard to do that. If this thread is going anywhere, it will have to discuss when you can use Mienshao over, specifically Infernape, but also any scout. We'll also have to discuss when a scout is actually effective, as not every team can afford one.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Edited the OP to take out Fake Out from the main set. Stop using Fake Out on Mienshao-- it never was, and never will be good. It's predictable from a mile away, and never did anyone good to use it. :/

This is in regards to OU singles... seeing as this forum is about OU singles (and not doubles or whatever...)

Knock Off is absolutely amazing, and after U-Turn and fighting STAB, it's indispensable. After that you choose your poison in what flying types to handle between HP Ice and Stone Edge (use HP Ice, lol).

 

[Terminate421]

Keldeo does not have problems with special walls due to its secret sword move or w/e its called. It's because perm weather/rain is much less common, notice that pretty much usage of ALL water types have gone down. Vaporeon, tentacruel, toxicroak, etc.

(I haven't used this image in years...damn)

OT: Water-types regardless of the perma-weather are still being used. Rotom-W, Empoleon, Gastrodon, and Vaporeon still are being used heavily from my observance.

I've even seen Rain Teams running Heliolisk as a new toy, often quite underrated as a Pokemon, actually.

Now that I understand that people seem to hate Mienshao for simply being a little slower than infernape I would like to point out that:

A. Mienshao's regenerate + U-turn is still a thing
B. Fake Out
C. Knock-Off

 

[Terminate421]

I never said that UU = bad. I was predominantly a UU player last gen - why the fuck would I honestly think UU Pokemon are bad? That's a stupid misconception that a lot of people have.

And no, they're not UU because they're inferior - they're rated as A in the viability ranking thread. They're UU because most of the ladder is awful and because of shiny new toy syndrome. They're UU because the people playing suck.

I LOVE YOU

Someone who understands this meta-game and 95% of my feelings towards it.

People often don't understand how to utilize pokemon according to their roles that Gamefreak have given them. Mienshao is a damned scout (A GREAT one too), not a sweeper. Just because it can't fight fairies well doesn't make it bad, it just means that they forgot one of the first rules of pokemon, you have 5 more that you could use to fight it's weakness.

 

[Fresher Than You]

Sorry, timezones, while you guys were busy posting I was here napping. Anyway

May we discuss Mien's Baton Pass ability? It seems like it would be an awful passer, but it really doesn't do bad. First good BP set gets the OP.

Btw Chou, I know it isn't a good move, but it saw good use as one for scouting, so I decided to put it in anyway >.>

One more thing, please stay on topic? The thread is for talking about Mien, it's rivals, it's threats and partners. Not random Pokemon being walled by other random Pokemon, and while discussion of the tiers is OK, this is an OU thread, so we kinda wanna talk about what it's like IN ou and the niches it has.

UU DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS BAD. IT JUST MEANS THAT OTHER POKEMON FIT THE OU METAGAME BETTER. THIS HAS BEEN A PSA BY SHIRUBA.

THANK GOD SOMEONE SAID IT

 

[Jaroda]

If you are not using Reckless, you are doing it wrong. If you use Reckless, you now outpower Mienshao's biggest competition, Terrakion, with High Jump Kick, as well as being more powerful than even Burned Guts Conkeldurr. Mienshao's niche lies in Knock Off and U-turn, which lets it act as a pivot and smash ghost types can would previously wall him, most notably Aegislash. It is also faster than M-Medicham, so it can outspeed threats like that M-Medicham can't. I think this is the best, and only set Mienshao should ever use:

Mienshao @ Choice Band/Scarf
Jolly/Naive Nature
4 Hp/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
-High Jump Kick
-Knock Off
-U-turn
-Stone Edge / HP Ice

There is literally no other move that warrants use. You risk wasting precious coverage and utility if you do so. This set could work well with Mega-Medicham, similar to the Double Bird strategy. Mienshao beats psychics that wall M-Medicham like Reuniclus, Slowbro, Mew, and Cress, ghost types like Cofagrigus, Aegislash, and Dusclops, and faster threats like Garchomp and Manaphy, and others if using Scarf, like Lati@s, +1 Volcarona, Specs Keldeo, Scarf Genesect, and Mega-Zard (both). On the other side, M-Medicham beats Poison types like Amoonguss and M-Venusaur, as well as Gliscor and Landorus-T on sets that lack HP Ice, and Salamence and Dragonite on sets that don't have Stone Edge. Also, here is a neat calc:

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 354-417 (102.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mienshao is not weak

This is why I love this board. You find out so much.

Admittedly one of the biggest complaints about Mega Medicham is its barely sufficient speed. Mienshao being able to pass the power and speed of Mega Medicham's HJK is simply amazing. Few scouts can hit that hard and, if people haven't noticed they are some of the most threatening and useful team mates to have. Check out all these VoltTurn users in OU.

Landorus-T with Intimidate and 145 At backed STAB EQ
Reckless Staraptor
Technician Bullet Punch Scizor
Galewings Brave Bird Talonflame
Rotom-W ('nuff said)
Life Orb+Regenerator Hurricane Tornadus-T
Mega Manectric

Mienshao is right at home with these guys if you think about it. There's a common trend if you notice. They all have VoltTurn to scout switches, they all have at least one insanely damaging STAB attack, and they tend to have a debilitating ability, threaten with status or Knock Off to remove anything's item. And outside of Rotom, they're all pretty fast too or have priority.

Mienshao was never meant to sweep. With those kind of defenses its meant to act like most scouts, hit and run while avoiding damage all together. And people are right, Regenerator in fact sucks when the power Reckless offers would have often outright killed the very thing facing you eliminating the need for Regenerator all together. Because you don't intend on staying in, being walled by a few things or facing things with powerful priority is of no consequence when you're supposed to do what all scouts can and should do, switch out. And with the way Mienshao is played the enemy can almost never get in for free, either losing their item, being scouted with U-Turn, or simply taking more than 50% health if not outright dying from HJK. Few people would be prepared for this kind of power, as there would be walls are utterly destroyed if switching in. Resistance to stealth rock is icing on the cake. Played in this fashion by a skilled player Mienshao should almost always be of some use.

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 187-220 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 276-328 (77.9 - 92.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 117-138 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 260-307 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Are you not entertained? Having a wallbreaker and scout in one role is really handy, in fact, it's genius. Would be counters in Gliscor and Landorus-T are easily outsped and killed with HP Ice if switching in on HJK or Knock Off. The few true counter include Mega Venusaur and defensive Gyarados without Stone Edge. Defensive Tentacruel can be a competent check unless using Choice Band HJK.

I think Mienshao has the right tools to be very dangerous in this meta. She's certainly something I'm willing to investigate further.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

UU DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS BAD. IT JUST MEANS THAT OTHER POKEMON FIT THE OU METAGAME BETTER. THIS HAS BEEN A PSA BY SHIRUBA.

Not even. It often means either people are dumb and aren't using good Pokemon (Manaphy, Kyu-B, Deo-S/D, Bisharp, etc.) or are also dumb and are using garbage Pokemon (Smeargle, Donphan.) We also have broken whores like Mega Lucario hogging up mega usage and shoving some megas down to UU.

 

[Segway]

I don't know if it's been pointed out, but the pokemon's name is misspelled in the first post.

Big, bold, underlined, misspelled.

 

[MegaHydra]

how to use mienshao as a lead.
Ability regenerator
item life orb
nature jolly
moveset: drain punch u-turn stone edge fake out.

 

[MegaHydra]

how to use mienshao as a lead.
Ability regenerator
item life orb
nature jolly
moveset: drain punch u-turn stone edge fake out.

How to use reckless.
ability reckless
item life orb
nature jolly
moveset: high jump kick fake out u-turn and stone edge
(this can also be a lead)

 

[alexwolf]

Mienshao is not viable in OU, locking.

 

[alexwolf]

Unlocking because Mienshao is viable once again, and a decent anti-lead with Fake Out + High Jump Kick.

 

[Karxrida]

Unlocking because Mienshao is viable once again, and a decent anti-lead with Fake Out + High Jump Kick.

We talking LO with Reckless or Regenerator with U-turn on the same set as that?

 

[midend]

We talking LO with Reckless or Regenerator with U-turn on the same set as that?

knock off/stone edge on the last set then? Or slash knock off with u-turn?

 

[Norne]

I dont think that u turn regenerator has a place in OU. If we want to capitalize on his strengths Reckless should be the main option. He is the only fast figthing type with acces to knock off afterall. But he is mostly outclassed by other fast figthing types and overall suffering by the popularity of bird spam and party slot syndrome... Specially if we consider Terrakion utility, MMedichamp sheer power and coverage and keldeo being goddamed keldeo.

 

[Karxrida]

Life Orb Reckless with HP Ice is probably the way to go. HP Ice can 2HKO SpD Gliscor, Landorus-T, and can OHKO Landorus-I after SR or Fake Out.

 

[midend]

Also 2KOes standard landoT, who takes pittance from anything else mienshao can throw at it and 2ko back with eq
Edit: i haz weak internetz

 

[alexwolf]

Not sure Karxrida, tagging ben gay because he is the one who told me about Mienshao.

 

[craing ;_;]

I'd just like to point out most of the arguments in this thread are pretty outdated. knock off on mienshao is completely unnecessary. all it ever hit was aegislash and gengar that tried to switch in, but uturning right out still preserves momentum. fake out should be used over knock off for the clutch priority and breaking opposing sash leads. poison jab can also be used over hp ice if you want to 2hko fable and check azu/gard. regarding its ability, I'd say regenerator and reckless both have its merits. it ultimately depends on your team. if you are using it on a super hyper off team then reckless would be ideal but if it was more so bulky offense then go with regenerator. mienshao gets really worn down especially since its a pivot. lo sand rocks rack up a ton of damage over the course of a battle and if that doesn't outweigh the use of 1.2x boost for hjk then go with the latter. I hope this clarifies the topic at hand.

 

[Fresher Than You]

I'd just like to point out most of the arguments in this thread are pretty outdated. knock off on mienshao is completely unnecessary. all it ever hit was aegislash and gengar that tried to switch in, but uturning right out still preserves momentum. fake out should be used over knock off for the clutch priority and breaking opposing sash leads. poison jab can also be used over hp ice if you want to 2hko fable and check azu/gard. regarding its ability, I'd say regenerator and reckless both have its merits. it ultimately depends on your team. if you are using it on a super hyper off team then reckless would be ideal but if it was more so bulky offense then go with regenerator. mienshao gets really worn down especially since its a pivot. lo sand rocks rack up a ton of damage over the course of a battle and if that doesn't outweigh the use of 1.2x boost for hjk then go with the latter. I hope this clarifies the topic at hand.

Most of these are outdated because..well, they're outdated. I wrote this a fair while ago, the thread only recently became (somewhat) revived. I went away from smogon altogether so I had no idea what's going on ;P.

I don't really have anything to add to the actual discussion though. I haven't used Mien since I wrote the thread ;P.