Magcargo (Update)

Bluewind

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Status: Ready to go on site (don't forget to credit uragg).

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/magcargo

_________________________________________________________

[OVERVIEW]

<p>Magcargo is usually relegated to NU due to its many shortcomings as a defensive Pokemon, mostly courtesy of its typing. Weaknesses to Stealth Rock and extremely common attacking types such as Water and Ground, an underwhelming set of resistances, and a rather paltry HP stat mean the poor snail doesn't see daylight too often. However, with good all-around defensive stats, a surprisingly good support movepool, and an alternative Rock-typing that serves it well when countering some of the most prominent threats in the UU metagame, Magcargo finds itself in an interesting niche.</p>

[SET]
name: Defensive Snail
move 1: Lava Plume / Flamethrower
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
ability: Flame Body
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Magcargo is often overlooked in UU due to its low stats and weaknesses to common attacking types, but it can still fill a respectable niche as a wall. Despite Magcargo's lowly reputation, its respectable 50/120/80 defensive stats allow it to serve as an effective counter for some powerful sweepers. Magcargo's Fire/Rock typing, despite giving it 4x weaknesses to Water- and Ground-type attacks, is very useful, giving it resistances to Flying-, Poison-, and Normal-type attacks while reinforcing its Fire-type resistance. Combined with a usable Special Attack stat and a serviceable support movepool, Magcargo can be a useful niche counter to certain threats while supporting his team.</p>

<p>Magcargo is a great switch-in against Normal-types without effective coverage moves, such as Ambipom and Swellow, or those that are Choice-locked into a Normal-type move, such as Choice Band Kangaskhan or Tauros. Magcargo can also comfortably take on and force out dangerous Fire-type sweepers such as Arcanine and Moltres. Lava Plume is the STAB Fire-type attack of choice thanks to its high burn rate, which has the potential to give a Rhyperior or Azumarill switch-in a nasty surprise. Flamethrower may be used in that slot, but Lava Plume is generally preferred since Magcargo is not trying to overpower its counters, so a little extra power does not make a large difference. Hidden Power Rock is Magcargo's strongest option for a secondary STAB move, hitting Fire-types for solid damage. Recover gives Magcargo reliable recovery and allows it to stay healthy through repeated attacks and residual damage. There are a multitude of options for the last slot. Stealth Rock is always useful for residual damage, while Toxic and Will-O-Wisp can be used to spread potentially crippling status ailments among the opposing team. Toxic is great for hitting bulky Water-types looking to switch in for free, such as Milotic, Blastoise, and Slowbro, while Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers such as Rhyperior and Feraligatr.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are many other moves that Magcargo can run in the last slot; Yawn can be used to shuffle your opponent's team, Light Screen and Reflect support your own team, and Refresh helps Magcargo defeat Pokemon who rely on status to damage it, such as specially defensive Arcanine and SubRoost Moltres.</p>

<p>The EVs and nature maximize Magcargo's defensive capabilities. 252 HP EVs are necessary to patch up Magcargo's poor base 50 HP, while 252 EVs in Special Defense help it tank special hits. Because Magcargo's Defense stat is still higher than its Special Defense even without EV investment, Bold is the preferred nature; it increases Magcargo's Defense more than Calm would boost Special Defense.</p>

<p>Bulky Water-types, especially Milotic, can come in for free on any move except Toxic and immediately threaten Magcargo. Thus, Venusaur makes a great teammate. Bulky pure Grass-types such as Tangrowth or Leafeon have excellent defensive synergy with Magcargo, easily taking the Ground- and Water-type attacks aimed at it. Hippopotas is also a good teammate because it sets up a permanent sandstorm, giving Magcargo a free Special Defense boost. Magcargo becomes extremely hard to take down in a sandstorm, comfortably walling all but the strongest neutral hits and healing with Recover. Magcargo greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support due to its weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Claydol is an excellent choice to provide this since it can comfortably take the Rock-, Fighting-, and Ground-type attacks that trouble Magcargo.</p>

[TEAM OPTIONS]

<p>The first thing one should be aware of when partnering Magcargo with other Pokemon is that having a switch-in to Ground- and Water-types is mandatory. Because of that, pure Grass-types such as Leafeon, Tangrowth, and Sceptile make marvelous partners to Magcargo, not only because they resist both of the aforementioned attacking types, but also because Magcargo itself alleviates their weaknesses to Poison-, Fire-, and Flying-type attacks. Leafeon deserves a special mention due to its access to Heal Bell, which helps mitigate Magcargo's overall weakness to status.</p>

<p>Magcargo's Stealth Rock weakness severely compromises its ability to continuously switch in throughout the match, which makes Rapid Spin support beneficial in the long run. Claydol is a prime candidate for the job due to its typing, as it can easily switch into most Fighting-, Ground-, and Rock-type attacks. Blastoise is another good option, being able to take on most physical Water-types, and, because of its natural bulk, take on Ground-types such as Donphan and Rhyperior as well. Magcargo also enjoys the Special Defense boost provided by sandstorm, which makes Hippopotas a good partner.</p>

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]

<p>Magcargo doesn't have a slew of viable move options outside of those that have been mentioned on its main set. Earth Power attains super effective coverage against Rock- and Poison-types; however, Magcargo must rely on hitting its opponents as they switch in, as most of those Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO it. Explosion can be used if you're willing to go out with a real boom, but won't be doing much more than trashing Magcargo's defensive potential, given its unimpressive Attack.</p>

<p>Due to Magcargo's access to Light Screen and Reflect, as well as Memento, a dual screens support set is a possibility; Uxie's able to do that better, however, with fewer exploitable weaknesses and superior Speed. Magcargo also has access to an interesting setup move in Curse, and thus the option of employing a boosting set under sandstorm. Nevertheless, given the high number of weaknesses it bears to common attacking types, this set is usually better left for Pokemon like Cradily. Finally, employing a Choice Specs set is a possibility if you desire to deal some real damage with Magcargo, but other Fire-types such as Magmortar and Moltres tend to do that better with their higher Special Attack stats and superior movepools.</p>

<p>Even though Dugtrio is by no means omnipresent, it is the ultimate hindrance to all sorts of defensive sets Magcargo could ever dream of running, thus making Shed Shell a viable option over Leftovers.</p>

[COUNTERS]

<p>Just about anything that has decent Special Defense, isn't weak to one of Magcargo's STABs, and bears a move that hits it for super effective damage can be considered a counter. However, every Pokemon that relies on physical attacks to beat it must be careful not to be burned by either Will-O-Wisp, Lava Plume, or Magcargo's Flame Body Ability. Water-types that carry Rest, such as Milotic and Lanturn, are prime examples of counters, being able to switch in on all of Magcargo's attacks with ease, including Specs Hidden Power Grass, and retaliate with Surf. Omastar can make use of its 4x resistance to Fire and decent special bulk to scare Magcargo away and set up multiple entry hazards. However, it won't enjoy being hit by Toxic, Earth Power, or Hidden Power Grass. Claydol, with its naturally high defensive stats, can switch in with ease and proceed to either spin away the Stealth Rock that Magcargo might have set up or hit it hard with Ground-type moves. In addition to that, because Claydol mostly runs special attacks, it can afford the risk of being burned. Clefable literally walls Magcargo for an eternity and can use the opportunity to Calm Mind up, set up Stealth Rock, or just slowly stall it out with Toxic and Softboiled. While Dugtrio risks being burned by Will-O-Wisp or Lava Plume if it directly switches in, it can trap Magcargo and OHKO it with Earthquake.</p>
 

breh

強いだね
Some stuff for OC includes (but is not limited to)

Yawn, Light Screen, Reflect, Explosion, Memento (GF hated magcargo so much they gave it two moves for suicide), and Body Slam; Body Slam is the only truly iffy one but the others seem to be fine.

Also remember it's Stealth Rock, not Stealth Rocks... my least favorite typo
 

Bluewind

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I had seen screens on its moveset but forgot to add, so thanks for reminding me; they were added now. Also, SR part fixed lol (should be Rocks though...)

Yawn had already been mentioned on AC, Body Slam is pretty iffy as you said and Explosion/Memento don't fit a wall set at all (especially if said mon has 50 base attack and a very good staying power).
 

shrang

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I like Magcargo, having used a few times, but there should definitely a mention of Magcargo's big, big flaws (SR weak, two 4x weakness, crap all for resistances, etc).

Also a nitpick: The move is called Stealth Rock, not Rocks.
 

uragg

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Just posting to say I'd be willing to write this up. Also what does QC think of the current Magcargo analysis? I don't really see what other set Magcargo can run effectively (lol Choice Specs), so this could maybe serve as a revamp if overview/other sections were added to it.
 

Bluewind

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@shrang: Yes I know, that's why I wanted to make a full Update (or revamp lol) of this set, and then include those informations on the Overview part, but for now I don't think there's much I can do =/. However, that reminded me to mention spinners as partners to that set, so thanks xP

And yeah I've already fixed the SR thing x.x

@uragg: Eo told me he was willing to write the set, so I'm not sure. Regarding the Update part, Specs set is pretty much garbage and this should be the only set to see the daylight. I could possibly make a rough draft of all these parts and then the person I transfer the work to polishes it, editting the title as well (asking for QCers opinions here).

Edit: Ok, I've just talked to Eo and it seems this is ok, so I'll update this soon.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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looks pretty good i've used the set it isn't TERRIBLE (not good either but it's magcargo what do you expect)

also just a minor nitpick it's Stealth ROCK not Stealth ROCKS
 
I'm not sure if Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp need to be slashed, because status is the only thing that makes Magcargo annoying to face. Toxic/Lava Plume/Recover/HP Rock is probably the best set, but I guess SR deserves a slash, especially because the things Magcargo walls are weak to it (Moltres / Scyther / Swellow / Arcanine). Toxic should probably be slashed first though to prevent the #1 Pokemon in the tier from walking all over you, as well as things like SpD Arcanine.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

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Yeah, Toxic should definitely be before Will-O-Wisp (although not before Stealth Rock imo). I think Flamethrower is superior to Lava Plume because you don't really want to burn Milotic, who is the most common Magcargo switch-in.

QC Approved 1/2
 

Bluewind

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I've switched the positions of Toxic and WoW but am not too keen on making Flamethrower the main option over Lava Plume, mainly because I think this set will be too invitating for stuff like Donphan, Rhyperior and such to come in. It can also nail Azumarill and Feraligatr on the switch-in, which is a very nice bonus IMO. Kinda the controversy existent between Discharge and Thunderbolt on Rotom, so I'm not really sure what to do here. Maybe I should mention that Flamethrower is preferred if you're using Toxic or WoW, thus it remains a secondary option; and Lava Plume stays as the main one due to being used in conjunction with SR.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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may as well just push this through (also not keen on the switch to flamethrower either. you're not doing damage to shit, may as well hope for burns! and the net -6% on milotic per turn is still useful even if it lowers physical damage)

 
I don't see when Flamethrower would ever really be more useful.

Flamethrower + SR: No status, in other words I'm going to switch in whatever the hell I want with no fear. Getting the potential burn on Rhyperior, Azumarill, Kabutops, etc. is more important than "risking" a burn against Milotic.

Flamethrower + Toxic: You're most likely going to Toxic Milotic (the switch-in can be seen from a mile away), so no worries here.

Flamethrower + Will-O-Wisp: WoW makes a potential burn against Milotic even riskier, so I don't see why you'd use it over Toxic/LavaPlume.
 

Bluewind

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Case 1 I completely agree, being twhat why I maintained Lava Plume as the main option. Case 2 is somewhat subjective (prediction reliant), and if Milotic comes in on your Lava Plume in a moment you don't know about its existance, there's a chance it will get burned and you'll be unable to budge it with Magcargo. Case 3 is better to control the influx of status, and allows you to be more selective when burning things. Milotic and Guts users can be mean when statused (reason for Flamethrower over Lava Plume), and sometimes, using Lava Plume, the burn just "doesn't come", which would make WoW a more reliable option against Azumarill and such (reason of WoW over Toxic).
 
Ah Magcargo isn't so useless after all. And oh, mention Wailord as a counter because he has Water Veil, making him immune to burns, resists Fire attacks and has base 170 HP to shurg off other attacks that isn't Hidden Power [Electric]/[Grass], and will threaten back with a STAB Water move.
 

franky

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no mention of slowbro? i know it is rare but these guys form a vicious defensive core in tandem. they exchange damage hits perfectly well! fighting-types like hitmonlee who will often break macargo + milotic cores will have a fare amount of difficulty passing cargobro. additionally, moltres troubles slowbro and macargo happens to switch in on it with impunity and can scare it away with either sr or hidden power rock. in a nutshell, fighting-types scare macargo and slowbro can form a nice defensive core with him.

Ah Magcargo isn't so useless after all. And oh, mention Wailord as a counter because he has Water Veil, making him immune to burns, resists Fire attacks and has base 170 HP to shurg off other attacks that isn't Hidden Power [Electric]/[Grass], and will threaten back with a STAB Water move.
mentioning wailord is nearly useless considering its overall performance on a team. if bluewind decides to mention specific water-types - they all counter this set bar toxic, then i think milotic and slowbro should get the mention. the latter pokemon i explained in my above post and milotic can eat will-o-wisp and grab that marvel scale boost.
 
The only time to use flamethrower over lava plume, imo, is if your team relies on a physical poke to get past Milotic. If you usually defeat Milo on the special side, burning it only helps.
 

Bluewind

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@franky: Yeah I was going to mention Slowbro and other nice partners when I updated the analysis, so that I didn't overload the set's description with then and ended up providing the reader with a full team. Anyways, I'll update this in like 30 mins.

edit: I have updated the OP. Would like if people took a look at it now and that some mod changed the title to "Magcargo (Update)".

edit 2: thanks Whorestle.
 
No 1. I love Magcargo and I think people definitely treat it like shit when its not THAT bad.

No 2. Ive been using Magcargo as a counter to Moltres and Arcanine and i also found that with Hippopotas SS support it's surprisingly hard to take down o.o

No 3. I DEFINITELY think that Shed Shell should be slashed in the items especially since Magcargo has Recover to compensate. Dugtrio rapes this set otherwise.
 

shrang

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Ah Magcargo isn't so useless after all. And oh, mention Wailord as a counter because he has Water Veil, making him immune to burns, resists Fire attacks and has base 170 HP to shurg off other attacks that isn't Hidden Power [Electric]/[Grass], and will threaten back with a STAB Water move.
I'm quite sure "Bulky Water" would be sufficient, yeah, especially since most of them are special attackers.
 
I'm quite sure "Bulky Water" would be sufficient, yeah, especially since most of them are special attackers.
Yeah, but I think Wailord deserves special mention by being immune to burns. A burned Milotic may be a blessing, but it is also a curse, taking away it's tanking ability. Quagsire also hates burns.
 

Lee

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Perhaps reccomend Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support? A few of the 'mons you're looking to counter are known to carry Toxic which would really cramp the snail's style. Uxie or Leafeon would be ideal as they also have the benefit of being able to cover Magcargo's troublesome weaknesses.
 

Bluewind

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Perhaps reccomend Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support? A few of the 'mons you're looking to counter are known to carry Toxic which would really cramp the snail's style. Uxie or Leafeon would be ideal as they also have the benefit of being able to cover Magcargo's troublesome weaknesses.
I have already done so in the Team Options section. When the whole thing is written up I'll make sure I mention Leafeon as a prime partner due to the Heal Bell support and Grass typing, but for now I don't want to overload the OP with partners (lol anything complements Magcargo and its 500 weaknesses).

Edit: Can this get moved? ._.
 
I noticed my comment about Shed Shell being included in the Items slot was ignored -_-

Even though without it, Magcargo is useless due to dugtrio -_-
 

uragg

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I'd rather not use a slash on shed shell. Dugtrio is: 1) not so common as in the Raikou period, when shed shell Chansey was a very viable alternative, and 2) one of MANY MANY things that beat Magcargo. losing lefties recovery is not worth being able to escape the clutches of one counter. if blueWind or qc wants to slash shed shell I'll do it, but I really don't think it's necessary.
 

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