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BW OU IR: The Art of Rain Stall
- Thread starter M Dragon
- Start date
I'm going to repeat this already redundant-sounding thing and say that this team is beautiful. and here i was expecting another rain man variation. anyway, i played this team for a while last night and detected no really big problems but im not that great anyway, so my advice probably isnt that solid :/
Not after Stealth Rock, you aren't. Adamant LO Mamaswine does 48.13% - 56.70% to Chansey, 47.58% - 56.49% to Quagsire (82% chance to 2HKO with Rocks), and 50.28% - 59.09% to Ferrothorn. All of them are 2HKOed by LO EQ. It's not just Mamoswine either, actually. Anything with >120 Base Atk, STAB Earthquake and a reasonable coverage move to hit Dragonite, and >70 Base Speed can come in and just start spamming Earthquake and kill pretty much everything. Adamant LO Excadrill can come in on Chansey, 2HKO your Quagsire switch in and set up sweep later. You definitely need some sort of Pokemon that has a resistance or immunity to Ground, as well as not being slow as a snail (Dragonite is too slow). If you don't like Rotom-W, you could also try Celebi and Latias (the latter being really Pursuit weak).
So to reiterate, your team is just really weak to Earthquake, and being the most frequently used attack in the whole metagame, THAT is a huge, huge problem.
I have never had problems with mamo though, and the reason in simple: everything on the team can beat it: it cant switch into poli or tenta (scald), it cant switch into hurricane, and the other 3 will win in 1vs1. Lo excadrill is much more problematic, and Celebi and Latias wont beat it. Luckily it can only set up on Chans (and tenta, but it cant switch into scald), and i can just wish quag. Hazards also help beating it.
Giving Ferro more def EVs could help too
EDIT: Now with Thund ban, I might replace Quagsire and change the team a bit (especially if excadrill gets banned too)
Giving Ferro more def EVs could help too
EDIT: Now with Thund ban, I might replace Quagsire and change the team a bit (especially if excadrill gets banned too)
I luv(disc) this!
Agreeing with f here. There really isn't anything besides SD Virizion that can harm this team; you just need to be prepared for it. Otherwise, this is an outstanding team M Dragon. To the archives with this for sure. Excellent team, and nice job with the success that you've have.
Agreeing with f here. There really isn't anything besides SD Virizion that can harm this team; you just need to be prepared for it. Otherwise, this is an outstanding team M Dragon. To the archives with this for sure. Excellent team, and nice job with the success that you've have.
Since Thundurus will be banned, and maybe Excadrill too, I will replace Quagsire.
I have thought in 2 options that could also help a lot vs most of the problems of the team: Tangrowth (I could use Skarm instead of Ferro, because I could have problems with IP LO IP Toxicroak), and Slowbro (covers pretty well most of the team problems, but it makes me quite weak to psyshock cm jirachi, and sadly ferro cant break the sub with bulldoze)
Opinions?
I have thought in 2 options that could also help a lot vs most of the problems of the team: Tangrowth (I could use Skarm instead of Ferro, because I could have problems with IP LO IP Toxicroak), and Slowbro (covers pretty well most of the team problems, but it makes me quite weak to psyshock cm jirachi, and sadly ferro cant break the sub with bulldoze)
Opinions?
Im keeping the team as it is, and I will maybe make some new rain stalls based on this team (all your suggestions will help me doing that, thnx for that!).
Also I will add a threat list with the most problematic mons and how to deal with them (this is BW, and covering everything is impossible, every team will have some small holes).
@DG BR: The reason of Black Sludge is because I want to hurt some trickers (like Latios and Rotom, and with Protect, it's easy to know if they want to Trick expecting a Chans switching, especially useful late game when they are weak), Ferro is a nice switching vs them, and in case they trick the Black Sludge, it won't hurt Ferro.
Also, I know that the dnite EVs can be better, so I will try to optimize it as much as possible
Also I will add a threat list with the most problematic mons and how to deal with them (this is BW, and covering everything is impossible, every team will have some small holes).
@DG BR: The reason of Black Sludge is because I want to hurt some trickers (like Latios and Rotom, and with Protect, it's easy to know if they want to Trick expecting a Chans switching, especially useful late game when they are weak), Ferro is a nice switching vs them, and in case they trick the Black Sludge, it won't hurt Ferro.
Also, I know that the dnite EVs can be better, so I will try to optimize it as much as possible
Even with thundurus / exca banned i still think you should keep Quagsire. Its your best check against boosting sweepers who try to out-muscle your team, and your team has no problem safely bringing him in. (EX: SD terrakion sets up an SD, you switch to to tenta on the SD and back to Quag on the Stone Edge) its definitely one of the coolest members on this team XP
Other than that, this team is amazing and it set the standard for rain stall.
Other than that, this team is amazing and it set the standard for rain stall.
Consider Sludge Bomb over Protect on Tentacruel. This should help with your Virizion and (to a lesser extent) Celebi problem, and hits plenty of switch-ins harder than Scald would (think Rotom-W). Obviously Protect can be amazing for the extra recovery but if Virizion is that big of a problem it's worth consideration. Also a Ghost-type would obviously help for spinblocking but I don't really see any good place to put it; you "could" replace Tentacruel with Jellicent but that also opens up other weaknesses.
Great team.
Great team.
Tentacruel is irreplaceable tbh; the team needs a spinner more than it needs a spinblocker.
I dont have a lot of suggestions for this team. Personally I'd use Scarf Politoed since nothing in the team outruns the typical CB Dragons and Ferrothorn can only take so many hits without Lefties and Leech Seed. If Ferrothorn dies (which nearly happened in my match because Outrage is ridiculously strong), someone else in the team would probably have to choke on another CB Outrage. Scarf Politoed (you still need Perish Song) can also revenge Mamoswine on a predicted Ice move i suppose, and well...just give your team some Speed. Can also revenge SD Virizion "somewhat" (since Ice Beam probably does a rather pathetic 40% but with Toxic Spikes and clever switching and maybe a CC drop could help you knock it out. If you're weird you can try HP Flying). Scarftoed means you kinda lose Jellicent coverage so /shrug....unless you want to use fast Chansey lol.
Really don't have a suggestion for DNite's EVs though.
Awesome team.
I dont have a lot of suggestions for this team. Personally I'd use Scarf Politoed since nothing in the team outruns the typical CB Dragons and Ferrothorn can only take so many hits without Lefties and Leech Seed. If Ferrothorn dies (which nearly happened in my match because Outrage is ridiculously strong), someone else in the team would probably have to choke on another CB Outrage. Scarf Politoed (you still need Perish Song) can also revenge Mamoswine on a predicted Ice move i suppose, and well...just give your team some Speed. Can also revenge SD Virizion "somewhat" (since Ice Beam probably does a rather pathetic 40% but with Toxic Spikes and clever switching and maybe a CC drop could help you knock it out. If you're weird you can try HP Flying). Scarftoed means you kinda lose Jellicent coverage so /shrug....unless you want to use fast Chansey lol.
Really don't have a suggestion for DNite's EVs though.
Awesome team.
Raijin, Thunder! Kazejin, Hurricane! Suijin, Hydro Pump!
Awesome team, Dragon. I´m testing one similar team with Hydration Vaporeon instead Chansey and Rotom-W instead Quagsire; I´ve also tested Special Wall Jirachi with Wish/Thunder Wave/Iron Head/Stealth Rock instead Blissey and is a bliss for the team, supporting it well and helping Dragonite at the time to para-flinch. I´m also using a little more of power carrying Hydro Pump on Politoed instead Scald.
Ferrothorn has now better EVs (thnx to X-Act app!).
Im definitely keeping Quag, even after thund and excadrill (maybe) ban.
@Jibaku: Yes that's something I have always considered (in fact, the original version had scarf Politoed), but as you said, then Jelli becomes very problematic.
@Delta: With wish support this could work, I will try it!
@Bangisan: In that case, CM Jirachi becomes too problematic (that mon was my nightmare while trying to make a version with Tangrowth)
Thnx for the rates!
Im definitely keeping Quag, even after thund and excadrill (maybe) ban.
@Jibaku: Yes that's something I have always considered (in fact, the original version had scarf Politoed), but as you said, then Jelli becomes very problematic.
@Delta: With wish support this could work, I will try it!
@Bangisan: In that case, CM Jirachi becomes too problematic (that mon was my nightmare while trying to make a version with Tangrowth)
Thnx for the rates!
this team is sound defensively and perhaps to an extent where i find chanseys position to be fairly underutilized. this team has trouble with two dragons spamming outrages/draco meteors because after ferrothorn's steel typing has resisted what it can, a simple dragon dance from lum berry nite/haxorus will swiftly clean your team because quagsire's unaware isn't comfortable dealing with high based powered attacks. strictly talking banded haxorus/dnites here and lati@S' harmful trick sets.
id personally replace chansey with forretress with staple moves (sr + spin), allowing your team to switch more freely because: dual spin, two solid steel-types, and 24 moves spread out well.
ir is fine as it is though and honestly if i were keen on playing my next match with a more conservative approach to the game as a whole, id consider a similar build too.
md boss it
id personally replace chansey with forretress with staple moves (sr + spin), allowing your team to switch more freely because: dual spin, two solid steel-types, and 24 moves spread out well.
ir is fine as it is though and honestly if i were keen on playing my next match with a more conservative approach to the game as a whole, id consider a similar build too.
md boss it
The problem of Forry > Chansey is that things that Mixmence, and Rotom-W, would have a much easier time vs my team.
Thnx for the rates!
Also, another possible change could be using Curse > Toxic and Waterfall > Scald on Quag (that was quag original moveset), so I can beat those dragons more easily. But I would lose that Toxic to Dnite, Latios and Rotom switchings, and that 30% burn to Ferro switchings though.
So the main offensive threats for the team are: SD virizion (can set up on Quag only, since chans can toxic it surviving the cc, ferro can survive the cc and gyro it to doom, tenta can burn, poli can toxic, and dnite can take a +2 LO SE at full health, so just keep it at 100% if u see virizon in team preview), CB dragons teams (ferro can take one while setting up hazards, leech seed ferro could solve this, but i would lose wish chans, so it's "choice your poison"), and CB Terrakion (requires prediction, but tenta + dnite + quag is usually enough)
Thnx for the rates!
Also, another possible change could be using Curse > Toxic and Waterfall > Scald on Quag (that was quag original moveset), so I can beat those dragons more easily. But I would lose that Toxic to Dnite, Latios and Rotom switchings, and that 30% burn to Ferro switchings though.
So the main offensive threats for the team are: SD virizion (can set up on Quag only, since chans can toxic it surviving the cc, ferro can survive the cc and gyro it to doom, tenta can burn, poli can toxic, and dnite can take a +2 LO SE at full health, so just keep it at 100% if u see virizon in team preview), CB dragons teams (ferro can take one while setting up hazards, leech seed ferro could solve this, but i would lose wish chans, so it's "choice your poison"), and CB Terrakion (requires prediction, but tenta + dnite + quag is usually enough)
Quagsire definitely needs replacement.
I would suggest a bulky variant of Rotom-W somewhat like:
Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 16 SAtk / 120 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
Hopefully this will sponge tornadus + dugtrio combo and still keep your team checking landorus. It also solves your minor jellicent problem.
Good luck!
edit: I'd definitely consider heal bell over toxic on Chansey as well since Thundurus has met la guillotine
I would suggest a bulky variant of Rotom-W somewhat like:
Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 16 SAtk / 120 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
Hopefully this will sponge tornadus + dugtrio combo and still keep your team checking landorus. It also solves your minor jellicent problem.
Good luck!
edit: I'd definitely consider heal bell over toxic on Chansey as well since Thundurus has met la guillotine
I have been thinking about a Quaggy replacement, but the problem with most of them has been one pokemon: Calm Mind Jirachi. That thing can just destroy the other 5 pokemons (especially if it has psyshock, and bulldoze cannot break the sub). And that's why I'm keeping it even with no Thund and no Excadrill.
The problem of bulky rotom is that it makes me very SD terrakion weak, and CM jira also rapes me.
So if I replace Quag, I should cover (with it and with the rest of the team with maybe some changes) at least: Landorus, Terrakion, CM Jirachi, Dragonite and Toxicroak
Heal Bell Bliss is something I will test.
Thnx for the rate!
The problem of bulky rotom is that it makes me very SD terrakion weak, and CM jira also rapes me.
So if I replace Quag, I should cover (with it and with the rest of the team with maybe some changes) at least: Landorus, Terrakion, CM Jirachi, Dragonite and Toxicroak
Heal Bell Bliss is something I will test.
Thnx for the rate!
Firstly, This is a great team. I've always stayed away from rain stall, but your success makes me want to try. I will try to rate but it will be hard. :)
One obvious weakness is your lack of a spinblocker. A Jellicent would be nice on this team as you lack a spin blocker, something people would consider a necessity on stall. The problem is I can't find a spot where it would fit w/o messing with the synergy of the team.
I would like to know though. How do you deal with rapid spinners?
One obvious weakness is your lack of a spinblocker. A Jellicent would be nice on this team as you lack a spin blocker, something people would consider a necessity on stall. The problem is I can't find a spot where it would fit w/o messing with the synergy of the team.
I would like to know though. How do you deal with rapid spinners?
It´s a crazy idea, but if you change Rotom-W for Quagsire (it can help you greatly since it has survavility, bulky and hits hard), and you fear Calm Mind Jirachi...you could try to add a Air Ballon Magnezone to trap and kill it (and you can even have time to Sub and increase your Sp.Atk), and at the same time you have a second Dragon check. The problem is you´ll be more weak to SD Terrakion (I´d put it over Blissey but you would lose your Wish support and your special wall then).