Since Manaphy is coming down to OU, I wonder how it will affect the use of RD teams. Will its ability promote it, or would its typing and bulk dissuade people from trying an RD team?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
- Start date
- Status
Honestly, when Manaphy comes down, if it comes down, I don't expect much of it. There will be a huge spike in Rain Dance teams as soon as it comes down, but after that not much. If I were to use a Rain Dance team, even when Manaphy is OU, I wouldn't use Manaphy simply because the ability doesn't promote Heavy Offense as much as Swift Swim or the other Rain Dance Sweepers. Sweepers such as Ludicolo, Kingdra, Qwilfish, and Kabutops are used because in the Rain they outspeed the majority of things, and they can hit hard as heck. Manaphy doesn't have the ability to outspeed to much in the Rain, and what you put in Speed loses you in Bulk and Power, and the only thing setting it off from normal Rain Dance sweepers is the fact that it has bulk, but if you need to put EV's in speed to make up for its ability, it kind of defeats the point.
It would definitely promote it. Some people consider Manaphy as an Uber Suicune due to it's bulk. In fact some people have already started renaming the Crocune set to the Crophy set. Add this to an ability that allows you to be a status absorber and I'm afraid that Suicune might be going to UU in the upcoming months.
Either way, any water Pokémon with a decent stat spread, typing, and moves are going to promote RD teams.
However yes, like Astrith said, it's not going to see much use in HO teams due to the same things that make it a great supporter in a regular RD team.
Either way, any water Pokémon with a decent stat spread, typing, and moves are going to promote RD teams.
However yes, like Astrith said, it's not going to see much use in HO teams due to the same things that make it a great supporter in a regular RD team.
Um... Anyway.
Manaphy is more known for its Tail Glow move. This is, in my opinion, going to be more commonly used than Calm Mind. Suicune has better defences than Manaphy but less speed and Special attack. So if anything, Manaphy is more sweep oriented with Tail Glow and Suicune is more stall oriented with its incredible defences. Suicune's 100/115/115 defences compared with Manaphy's 100/100/100 defences. I'd use Suicune for defending and Manaphy more for sweeping given the choice.
Manaphy is more known for its Tail Glow move. This is, in my opinion, going to be more commonly used than Calm Mind. Suicune has better defences than Manaphy but less speed and Special attack. So if anything, Manaphy is more sweep oriented with Tail Glow and Suicune is more stall oriented with its incredible defences. Suicune's 100/115/115 defences compared with Manaphy's 100/100/100 defences. I'd use Suicune for defending and Manaphy more for sweeping given the choice.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Yes, Manaphy seems an excellent candidate for a HO team, as under reflect and light screen it can set up even in front of checks like Latias, that can only manage around 50% with draco meteor, or scarf Rotom whose thunderbolts can be easily absorbed thanks to light screen and\or calm mind. It can also check threats like Gyarados (hp electric) which usually represent a problem for offensive teams.
I also like the idea that people will be dropping their cunes in favor of manaphy, because Outrage is a lot less likely to kill cune :) On the other hand, Luke can't set up on it like it can with cune, and it is much less likely to run only surf, so meh.
Yes, Manaphy can set up on stuff it normally can't set up on with DS. Subglow will probably be the most common on DS teams. I've used it in place of Suicune when it was on the ladder, and I must say, the extra offense and ability to beat some walls like Swampert and Skarmory whom I had trouble with earlier was welcomed, but I lost a TON of that defense Suicune provides. It just isn't as bulky as Suicune, not to say it isn't bulky.
Just wondering. How viable of a candidate do you guys think feraligatr will be on HO with access to priority? It severely weakens those counters to Lucario and Scizor, too. Maybe boosted priority HO?
Just wondering. How viable of a candidate do you guys think feraligatr will be on HO with access to priority? It severely weakens those counters to Lucario and Scizor, too. Maybe boosted priority HO?
Feraligatr often creates an unfavorable position. Salamence, Latias, Gyarados, Rotom-A, and many more can easily switch into Aqua Jet and threaten with one of their moves. With DS it could be could(and Lum berry) but Waterfall is too good of a STAB move to pass up, so you are only left with 1-2 moves(SD, Waterfall, Aqua Jet/?, ?).
Return gives perfect neutral coverage which is the set I meant to communicate to you guys. Sorry about that....It seems able to do lots, especially after surviving a super effective attack and then run rampant with torrent thanks to DS. Also, Rotom can't switch into an Adamant SD boosted aqua jet. It takes lots of damage, and after surviving the thunderbolt thanks to DS it'll take more due to torrent.
Basically, I'm seeing this as a way to make nearly everything faster useless with priority of different types, and then powerful moves to take out stall. It seems like it can work.
Basically, I'm seeing this as a way to make nearly everything faster useless with priority of different types, and then powerful moves to take out stall. It seems like it can work.
Well it would need a Lum Berry, as I was actually thinking of Will-o-Wisp. I think Feraligatr could get 1 kill, maybe 2, simply because Return doesn't hit things like Salamence or Gyarados hard enough at +1.
True, but they can't damage it enough either, and SR weakens them severely.
Wouldn't dragon claw - waterfall provide better coverage than return waterfall , especially if you want to counter dragon switch ins (or you use DD) dragon claw is kind of a compromise between return and ice punch. Still from my experience it is also not always enough.
It can be, I guess. It might work. Anyone willing to test this out. I have to go, and probably won't be available until the weekend due to some tests....
Normal is way too neutral for my tastes. Neutral is only good when it is stab or has huge base power, otherwise it isn't that great. Gyarados gets "perfect" coverage with outrage + waterfall, but I would never use that set.
The main problem with feraligatr is that he is slow and his stabs don't compensate for it. waterfall has nice coverage, but it certainly isn't close combat, and aqua jet is not extremespeed. I think I would use substitute azumarill before feraligatr. both of them would be decent choices on a rotom-walled HO though. Speaking of which, has anyone tried that Wacan Gyarados set?
The main problem with feraligatr is that he is slow and his stabs don't compensate for it. waterfall has nice coverage, but it certainly isn't close combat, and aqua jet is not extremespeed. I think I would use substitute azumarill before feraligatr. both of them would be decent choices on a rotom-walled HO though. Speaking of which, has anyone tried that Wacan Gyarados set?
I've used SD Feraligatr on a semi-RD team and it works okay, but it's nothing particularly exciting because of the coverage and having only 105 base Attack. DD may work better if the lowish power isn't too big a problem, since that is really a lot more like a redundant Gyarados with a good Ice move. SD Feraligatr is probably best on a team that specifically uses a lot of Waters, because once the resists are down he powers up quickly and against a fairly wide variety of opponents thanks to bulk.
It's worth noting that Kabutops is more frail and less resistant to Bullet Punch, but picks up 10 base points of Attack and has a slight edge in Speed, as well as being able to use Stone Edge vs. Gyarados/Salamence (the latter mostly on switch-ins or in Rain, but meh). He's generally been stronger than Feraligatr when Rain is around, but otherwise I'm not certain that he'd merit a slot on any OU build over Lucario or Scizor.
I have no idea on Azumarill because I'm not sure if he's threatening enough, and he certainly doesn't have any speed when using anything but Aqua Jet, but I'd be willing to try him out next time I'm running a team of this sort.
It's worth noting that Kabutops is more frail and less resistant to Bullet Punch, but picks up 10 base points of Attack and has a slight edge in Speed, as well as being able to use Stone Edge vs. Gyarados/Salamence (the latter mostly on switch-ins or in Rain, but meh). He's generally been stronger than Feraligatr when Rain is around, but otherwise I'm not certain that he'd merit a slot on any OU build over Lucario or Scizor.
I have no idea on Azumarill because I'm not sure if he's threatening enough, and he certainly doesn't have any speed when using anything but Aqua Jet, but I'd be willing to try him out next time I'm running a team of this sort.
Err, I hope no one tried it as I listed it. The reason was that I made a typo. You need to invest Jolly and 170 Speed EVs, not 166. 170 ensures you beat Timid Latias by one point after two Dragon Dances. I found on my team that it was solid simply because of the current state of the metagame. Rotom-A and Latias are the accepted Gyarados checks, so it works. If Celebi and Vaporeon were still the common Gyara counters, it would fail.
If you expect that you are going to be playing a team with stuff like Scarf Latias/Scarf Rotom, be aggressive about using it, although getting up a Light Screen is recommended to ensure that Scizor doesn't enter after the Thunderbolt to Bullet Punch you. If you are playing against a stallish or balanced team, it might not have much use :(
I found time to test priority HO and it's pretty good. Feraligatr isn't that bad, but I must say, it can use the power given by LO, as all the rotoms I've faced have been flinched by waterfall when I could have attacked them with torrent boosted aqua jets. It does around 55% to defensive rotom. That's a 2KO and it's outsped. It actually might be a good way to break rotom for teams that are walled by it. Coverage wasn't much of a problem with dragon claw beating the dragons. A scarftias couldn't KO with thunderbolt and left me with 1% left after a critical hit under light screen. That just proves how amazingly bulky it is. It's also pretty easy to get in that SD as most teams are unprepared for it.
Has anyone tried a lead such as a Bronzong that may be able to set up screens twice in one battle, whereas Azelf is only useful once?
Although Bronzong is one of the slower pokemon available and will definetley not be starting the offensive power, could a poke like him or similar to him be viable as a lead for heavy offense?
Although Bronzong is one of the slower pokemon available and will definetley not be starting the offensive power, could a poke like him or similar to him be viable as a lead for heavy offense?
Bronzong is a lead of the past that has lost its prime due to Suicide leads shutting him down and Infernape/Heatran dealing a huge dent to our iron bell's health. If you plan on using Bronzong to support your HO team, it's far better off in a different position other than lead. Leads for HO teams should be able to set up a favorable situation without getting shut down easlily or destroying your opponent's team from the get-go.
Wow this thread has not died yet.
I truly do not understand why Heavy Offense is getting all this attention. To be blunt, it is not good. The only HO team I have seen at the top of the leaderboard is Stathakis'; even then, how many ruined alts do you think it took for him to finally streak his way to number 1? There were likely multiple battles that were decided on speed ties. How good can something be if a faster Taunt lead cripples your entire strategy? Think about all the Azelf vs Azelf speed ties that decide the battle then and there! The high reliance on luck to achieve success, and the predictability of Heavy Offense make it an inferior playstyle. Contrary to the OP, I would like to clarify that it does not beat stall. I have never had any issues against HO when using stall, phazing / intimidate shuffling ruined Heavy Offense, especially since it is so easy to predict the moves of the opponent. Ultimately, a good player can easily dismantle Heavy Offense by making smart switchs and not being stupid enough to let the opponent have free turns for set up. The lack of successful HO teams should be testament enough to prove it's horridness. People would be smart to abandon this inferior playstyle.
I truly do not understand why Heavy Offense is getting all this attention. To be blunt, it is not good. The only HO team I have seen at the top of the leaderboard is Stathakis'; even then, how many ruined alts do you think it took for him to finally streak his way to number 1? There were likely multiple battles that were decided on speed ties. How good can something be if a faster Taunt lead cripples your entire strategy? Think about all the Azelf vs Azelf speed ties that decide the battle then and there! The high reliance on luck to achieve success, and the predictability of Heavy Offense make it an inferior playstyle. Contrary to the OP, I would like to clarify that it does not beat stall. I have never had any issues against HO when using stall, phazing / intimidate shuffling ruined Heavy Offense, especially since it is so easy to predict the moves of the opponent. Ultimately, a good player can easily dismantle Heavy Offense by making smart switchs and not being stupid enough to let the opponent have free turns for set up. The lack of successful HO teams should be testament enough to prove it's horridness. People would be smart to abandon this inferior playstyle.
When I respond to your post reverb, I am in no way saying that Hyper Offense is the best strategy, but some of the things you are saying defy logic or are plain incorrect.
Anyway, I think you get the point. I am not saying that HO is equal to other strategies per se, but these "arguments" are not arguments. They are simply generalizations.
ReyScarface has also gotten to #1 with a HO team, and several people have gotten into the top 10 with it. 1338 peaked at #7 (with a team that wasn't even his) and didn't use any alts to do so.
A faster taunt hurts any strategy, including stall. I fail to see how this matters. In fact, Azelf is only slower than Aero as far as taunt leads go. Also, it in no way cripples your strategy. You simply bring Azelf back in later.
There is no high reliance on luck. Your opponent either can handle your team or they can't, just like your opponent either has the one weakness to your stall team or they don't. Also, don't act like stall isn't completely predictable. The format for stall is incredibly rigid. You have pert/gliscor/hippo, forry/skarm/roserade, tentacruel/latias, Cursetar/Blissey, Rotom, and filler.
It is unfair to generalize here. Good HO players can beat stall consistently, and bad players can't. That is true of any team style. If you are more skilled than the opponent, you deserve the win. The fact is that most people that play HO aren't very good, which means what and how they play doesn't truly reflect what a good HO team is/plays. I'm glad to hear that you are skilled enough to beat average players playing a mediocre HO team. Way to go! You certainly don't go so far as to call bulky offense bad because of all of the people who suck that use it. It has been said in this thread multiple times that bulky offense is probably the best matchup, and is currently the most popular team style. HO is fun, and also a sort of metagame choice. A good team is a good team, regardless of what strategy it employs.
Anyway, I think you get the point. I am not saying that HO is equal to other strategies per se, but these "arguments" are not arguments. They are simply generalizations.
I wanted this thread to die a while ago ~_~
to be fair, with special ho it only took me one alt (in fact, assuming I would ruin it, I used one that I didn't care about!), but I ruined a shitton of em with physical ho during the same ladder run, and the only reason I even got to #1 was because of repeated games with good team matchup against 1650+ guys. that said, it still did take me only 1 alt and like 3 hours with that one good team, and some of the luck my opponents got would shock you.
with special offense, on my suspect run, I actually lost every single manaphy speed tie and didn't have a problem. with physical offense, when facing faster taunt leads I usually sac an intimidator to get rid of it and do some scouting, then bring azelf back in as if the game had just started. oftentimes, the extra scouting allows me to make better use of screens and makes the matchup more favourable than the beginning of a generic battle! azelf vs azelf in mirror matches sucks though because there's no conceivable way of winning if your opponent has half a brain =/
actually, the fact that there are usually so many win conditions means that ho can win despite shitloads of luck, because all it takes is one pokemon left to sweep the entire team.
I disagree here. the concepts of overloading and removing the guard are things you know about from chess, and as such you should also understand how easy it is to take on an overloaded opponent when your team actually has good offensive synergy (i.e. can overload the opponent). the whole premise of ho is to give stall a bad matchup
I disagree here too. I have played against ipl plenty of times using ho vs. stall, and even though he's a better player than me, I win those games every time, while his team is notorious for not giving free turns to the opponent, using things like payback forry, coverage pert, paralysis, etc. I think it might take a player with half a brain to pilot ho against a good stall player, but in the end one fact remains. good stall teams have to try and cover everything with 6 pokemon. this means they will probably not dedicate more than one or two guys to beat the same threat. if they fight 5 pokemon that are the same threat, it makes sense that 2 or 3 pokemon will lose to 5, even if they are counters. that's just how offensive 4th/5th gen pkmn is by nature. if your opponent is smart, they will play to weaken your counter before trying to sweep, which will, 99% of the time, be enough to break through stall.
yeah, it's not that good, and yeah, I've stopped playing it, but I think you're exaggerating a little bit in general
Pure HO might not be all that its cracked up to be, but watered-down HO elements permeate many OU teams whether you realize it or not. Countless players use things like Aerodactyl/DD-Salamence/DD-Gyarados/SD-Scizor on their teams without playing a team that fits any HO archetype, be it Dragons, Rotom-walled, etc. On the other side of the spectrum, things like Azelf/Gengar/Heatran still see some use. And in other metagames, such as Ubers, HO is deadly, especially now that we are in a stall phase of the offense/stall metagame cycle.
After experimenting with HO, I've moved away from pure Hyperoffense and towards offensively minded teams that may incorporate things like a Choice user or Breloom or whatever. The idea is still to sacrifice and exploit resistances, though, which is where HO's influence comes into play. By the way, Breloom is a load of fun on such teams.
After experimenting with HO, I've moved away from pure Hyperoffense and towards offensively minded teams that may incorporate things like a Choice user or Breloom or whatever. The idea is still to sacrifice and exploit resistances, though, which is where HO's influence comes into play. By the way, Breloom is a load of fun on such teams.
A lot of people have been and still are playing HO, and quite a few were successful. You just have to learn more about it before going ahead and making your team. When up against stall, I'm going to have to say that either side has a chance to win, and I'm being honest here. A prepared stall player can easily get the win, and the same can go for a prepared HO player.
One question, though. I'm finding it quite hard to find the time to set up a pokemon when using my HO team. Are pokemon that don't need to set up to sweep still viable?
One question, though. I'm finding it quite hard to find the time to set up a pokemon when using my HO team. Are pokemon that don't need to set up to sweep still viable?
mtr makes a good point, and touches on something that I believe is pretty interesting. Even if you're not using pure HO, I think it does offer valuable insights that can inform your teambuilding and play with other sorts of teams. For example, the benefits of concentrating your threats in a particular direction (Dragon moves, special moves, etc.) can still be experienced on non-HO teams, or at least, non-traditional HO teams (hello SubCM team). Limiting the number of defensive threats that are useful against your team can also prove useful on more bulky offensive teams, and running redundant setup threats still has benefits even if it doesn't have the whole team in on it. I find that the quality of my regular offensive teams improves when I take a pseudo-HO sort of mindset.
Playing HO also forces you to learn to plan and learn when to sacrifice and learn to maximize your turns and know when to switch vs. sacrifice, much more than bulky offense forces this.
MetaGross66, you do not technically need to have setup, all that's required of your non-support Pokemon is that they be fairly credible sweeping threats. That's why things like Gengar and Specs Jolteon qualify on the Special team; neither of them has any (reasonable) setup, but they pose a very real sweeping threat, helping you keep momentum and possibly actually pull off the sweep.
Playing HO also forces you to learn to plan and learn when to sacrifice and learn to maximize your turns and know when to switch vs. sacrifice, much more than bulky offense forces this.
MetaGross66, you do not technically need to have setup, all that's required of your non-support Pokemon is that they be fairly credible sweeping threats. That's why things like Gengar and Specs Jolteon qualify on the Special team; neither of them has any (reasonable) setup, but they pose a very real sweeping threat, helping you keep momentum and possibly actually pull off the sweep.
- Status