Metagame Gothlett Suspect Discussion thread

[Rowan]

Sorry, but in generation 6, LC has always considered 3 questions when banning a pokemon.

1) Is the pokemon broken?
2) Is the pokemon making the metagame not fun to play?
3) Is one of or a combination of 1 or 2 discouraging users from playing LC?

Yes, we don't want to go completely ban happy, but if Diglett is making the metagame bad, if it is discouraging people from playing LC, because diglett is too restrictive, then we should seriously consider banning it.

This is why the suspect tours have banned diglett and gothita, to see if a metagame without them is more diverse, fun, enjoyable. I'd like anyone that's participated in those tours to give some opinions plz

 

[Akkeshi]

I'm going to make A Post...

BUSINESS MATTERS:


thanks for the subtweet on smogon.com, Guy! yes i run "abra-weak" teams; most players run "abra-weak teams". the only teams that are not "abra-weak teams" are those that run stunky. Porygon? get 2hko'd by lo psychic. Munchlax is a fringe mon, Lickitung is nearly unviable - run those only for abra and you have the word "overcentralizing" creep into discourse. Encounter a FS abra w/ offense and prepare to have the Ride of Your Life! engaging in "fun" 50/50s to see if you lose one mon or two. "Oh shrug, Abra cant do both things (to reiterate: sash bullshit and lo annihilation) because it cant hold two items!! guess who knows the item of the other Abra: the other player! so guess what that is for the non-abra guy: another guessing game. Just because you dont know how to play abra - I'll spare you the embarrassment of giving the people the replay of you losing to my quickpass with a) clear smog foongus b) pawniard and c) focus sash abra, which together might be a full fucking ct - doesnt mean it isnt good. There's no reason to bring Abra up in this thread except to be a dick or to desperately seek attention and validation, which you certainly didnt get on the scrubs' bench (another cutting fact: BA didnt think you were even good enough to ghost).

i didnt want to do that but y'know im not going to let bullshit happen to me

I am really very sorry if I offended you there, it was never my intentions to make you mad. In retrospect you do bring up some really intelligent points but sadly this isn't an abra suspect, so I'm going to refrain from going discussing it any more but chin up, there's always hope for next round! I'm happy a player of your quality and reputation would take the time to go through my replays and make analyses of my losses and respect your evaluations. My team is probably bad, I'll take your word for it, I did make it for the last suspect and haven't had the innovation to make anything better since. I'll be happy to take suggestions from you anytime. And I agree my 0-1 record in LCPL is dreadful, maybe you could ghost me next time? I hope you find it in your heart to forgive me for criticising your post and I will definitely find the time to give you a "like of approval" like you asked me to in our first battle. :)

Sorry, but in generation 6, LC has always considered 3 questions when banning a pokemon.

1) Is the pokemon broken?
2) Is the pokemon making the metagame not fun to play?
3) Is one of or a combination of 1 or 2 discouraging users from playing LC?

Yes, we don't want to go completely ban happy, but if Diglett is making the metagame bad, if it is discouraging people from playing LC, because diglett is too restrictive, then we should seriously consider banning it.

This is why the suspect tours have banned diglett and gothita, to see if a metagame without them is more diverse, fun, enjoyable. I'd like anyone that's participated in those tours to give some opinions plz

1. I don't feel like there is any one Pokemon that is gamebreaking in the current LC metagame. I don't like to admit it but for a meta with such a large number of Pokemon to potentially use, there are only about 20 or so that are consistently usable, with the occasional oddball that can serve as a check to some of the most common threats. As I stated in the previous round I feel that the game is very balanced and given that nothing has changed in terms of unbans/releases/new strategies since then I will maintain this position.

2. LC has always been fun for me due to the generally simple format. It's harder to run stall/balance than hyper/bulky offence so the battles are relatively fast and exciting. The lack of change in the game over the last year has made some battles a bit tedious in that you know what to expect from nearly everyone/everything you face, barring elo hell on the ladder. I remember re-suspecting missy and/or yanma was voted #2 during last rounds voting process and feel that looking at these again could give life to a very predictable meta at this moment.

3. I wouldn't feel that there's a single pokemon/strategy/ability that's discouraging players from other meta's from playing LC. Again if something like a re-suspect were to occur I think people would be a bit more drawn to the tier rather than seeing already existent things suspected/banned.

 

[Unlucky Desperado]

Most arguments here are what I would like to say, but my opinion comes down to Diglett restricting teambuilding in the sense many checks to top threats are destroyed by diglett. Gothita is not as big of a problem because it has to use scarf and Abra is better even if you can switch out because it is so fast and strong

 

[OP]

The biggest problem I have with the pro-ban Diglett argument is that Diglett has just been really mediocre in LCPL, which I kinda outlined in this post, so I won't delve into specifics. It's been pretty rare that Diglett accomplishes anything more than expected and basically never obviously cleared the way for a sweeper to tear through the opposing team. If Diglett's exceptional performance isn't seen in the actual battle, the biggest reasons to ban it would be its restrictions on teambuilding or that it forces the player against Diglett to make suboptimal plays in order to play around Diglett. There's a huge number of viable and good Ghost- or Flying-types which obviously aren't affected by Diglett at all. Pivots are also really common and can fairly easily play around the Diglett kill range in most circumstances, largely due to how weak Diglett is. They usually have to be Knocked Off and severely weakened, and are only trapped if they're still in battle while the Diglett user gets a free switch-in, which only really happens when you get a KO or the opponent had a slow pivot that somehow also weakened your mon into Diglett range. Pokemon with Sturdy generally don't care about Diglett if you can keep hazards away. Even some of the weakest Pokemon to Diglett like Larvesta or Magnemite can play around it. Larvesta doesn't die to LO Rock Slide and is pretty much always using U-turn anyway, while Magnemites are either Scarf or can use Sturdy/Endure to help save them. With all of those things combined, I find it hard to believe Diglett is really restricting teambuilding other than making specific Pokemon like Ponyta worse, but I've even see Flame Charge Ponyta if you really care that much about Diglett. This leaves the last option of Diglett restricting your play in-game/forcing you to make suboptimal plays just because of its existence. Usually Diglett being there just translates to using less Volt Switch and not revenge killing with Pokemon that can get trapped by Diglett, which isn't a very big deal. Worst case scenario, you absolutely need one Pokemon that's weak to Diglett because you only pack one check to a certain Pokemon on the other team and you have to avoid KOing anything with it so that Diglett doesn't trap it, but I think it's just bad teambuilding to not properly prepare for things that have been around forever like FletchDig.

tl;dr: Diglett doesn't do very well in high level games, doesn't restrict teambuilding, and doesn't force suboptimal plays. What's broken about it

As a side note, I've never heard a single new user complain about Diglett. Ever. I have seen many players during tour games asking why we're suspecting Diglett because they just don't see whats broken about it though. I really don't think it's discouraging people from playing LC at all.

 

[Josh]

As a relatively new player to LC, I can really support this.

As a side note, I've never heard a single new user complain about Diglett. Ever. I have seen many players during tour games asking why we're suspecting Diglett because they just don't see whats broken about it though. I really don't think it's discouraging people from playing LC at all.

I started off playing LC with a team that didn't have diglett or gothita in it, and recently tried them out for the suspect ladder to get a feel from them. I've come to the conclusion that, in my opinion, gothita is nowhere near broken and diglett is somewhat borderline but not ban worthy either.

Keep in mind this is only from my experience so sorry if I'm wrong, but Gothita is incredibly underwhelming. It loses to diglett first of all despite the scarf set being the common one, because of sucker. Even if you trick it that turn, it's fine next turn because it can just sucker again! Gothita can't OHKO most things, including bulky Foo and Thunderbolt doesn't even OHKO archen. It's able to net a kill most games, but that's about it. Plus, being locked into a move is terrible. If it's electric, diglett or some other ground can sub, rocks or w/e it wants before finishing it. If it's psychic, free turn for darks, OR pursuit to go end it's life! In general gothita is an underwhelming threat, and like someone said is a great example of balanced trapping.

Now, diglett. Again keep in mind I'm pretty new to LC. Diglett is a really useful mon. It bodies ponita with an OHKO even with eviolite, who is otherwise a huge threat. It also bodies non-scarfed (most aren't I don't think) larvesta except when you miss rock slide at 2795 coil because suspect ladder is cancers with an OHKO from rock slide (as long as LO it's guaranteed). Non scarfed chinchou, another big threat, loses to it as does archen. I could go on, but it's pointless. The best offensive "counter" to it is probably fletch who OHKO's it, and luckily it easily fits on teams because fletch is god. Other than that, speed tying or going for a defensive threat like foongus is probably the best way to deal with it (short of sashes or sturdy).
Anyways I realize I'm stating the obvious, and probably sound dumb, but the point is that as a new player I didn't find diglett brokenly hard to play against, and playing with diglett I didn't find it overwhelming in power nor did I find it swept often. I don't find it broken, nor do I think it should be banned because ban haply tiers are never fun. But if someone wants to quote this and make me look stupid, be my guest. I'm happy to learn.

 

[ryan]

I haven't read and won't read over half of this thread, but people need to stop saying stuff like "Gothita is easily handled by Knock Off." It's a fucking trapper. It's "handled" by not having anything on your team that can be easily trapped. You don't beat a trapper by killing it. You beat it by not letting it do its job, which is nearly impossible because trapping abilities are broken and stupid. Gothita thankfully sucks ass, so it's not that big of a deal, but the same cannot be said for Diglett.

edit: "tl;dr: Diglett doesn't do very well in high level games, doesn't restrict teambuilding, and doesn't force suboptimal plays. What's broken about it"

LOL

 

[apt-get]

I haven't read and won't read over half of this thread, but people need to stop saying stuff like "Gothita is easily handled by Knock Off." It's a fucking trapper. It's "handled" by not having anything on your team that can be easily trapped. You don't beat a trapper by killing it. You beat it by not letting it do its job, which is nearly impossible because trapping abilities are broken and stupid. Gothita thankfully sucks ass, so it's not that big of a deal, but the same cannot be said for Diglett.

edit: "tl;dr: Diglett doesn't do very well in high level games, doesn't restrict teambuilding, and doesn't force suboptimal plays. What's broken about it"

LOL

You just admitted to not reading over half of the posts and generalize the arguments to "it gets koed by knock off", which is not what 90% of the thought-out posts talk about.

Diglett doesn't force suboptimal plays because you don't get your team 6-0ed by fletch if diglett traps something, unless your team is badly built. I honestly don't play differently vs diglett than vs any other team archetype (I actually volt switch more vs dig most of the time) because dig is essentially playing 5-0 in terms of defensive prowess, and dig is a horrible momentum sinker after KOing something.

I won't deny it's good at trapping, but it's a legit strat like any other. Since when is DragMag or pursuit + fight spam broken? Diglett may be "better" at trapping than most of those, but it's way more limited in the things it can support if you want to sweep the opponent (fletchling, zigzagoon, and snivy, where fletch still gets beaten by mag and archen, zigzagoon by mag archen, and ghost types, and snivy by foongus and mons faster than 16/17 speed).

 

[ryan]

I know 90% of the thought-out posts don't talk about Knock Off taking out Gothita. At least one post did, however, and I didn't see a response to it explaining why it was illogical to discount Gothita for that reason so I made one myself.

Pursuit is broken, but that's not relevant to this suspect test.

Diglett doesn't necessarily have to trap Rock- and Steel-types for Fletchling to sweep in order to be "broken." I'm not going to go into crazy detail because I've already done so in the past, so if you care about my argument, you can read these posts.

 

[Merritt]

I know 90% of the thought-out posts don't talk about Knock Off taking out Gothita. At least one post did, however, and I didn't see a response to it explaining why it was illogical to discount Gothita for that reason so I made one myself.

Pursuit is broken, but that's not relevant to this suspect test.

I just want to make sure you were talking about Little Cup Masteh's post. Both KM and I responded to that (in literally the two posts below that) and no other post talks about how Knock Off can beat Gothita. There's a post talking about how you can pursuit trap it, but that's a somewhat legitimate point, since it essentially means that you can force a 1 for 1 situation. Granted it's not exactly ideal, since what Goth trapped is likely more important to you than Goth is to the opponent, but it's still something to consider.

 

[Shrug]

1) Is the pokemon broken?
2) Is the pokemon making the metagame not fun to play?
3) Is one of or a combination of 1 or 2 discouraging users from playing LC?

STATEMENT OF POST'S PURPOSE
Capm Corkscrew brings up some good points, or more specifically, the points we need to talk about if we are going to have a suspect discussion consistent w/ those we have had in the past. So im going to address those, and some other people's posts as well.

ADDRESS OF POSSIBLE PROBLEMS TO ARISE FROM THE VERY START
We have a problem with the fact that all the words / phrases following "is the pokemon" in 1) and 2) of Rowan's banning guidelines are slippery and tough to trap, pin down. We will start with "broken", which i already went into on another thread. There are some dudes who feel "broken" simply means inimical for positive meta development while there are others who think broken is only meeting certain standards of brokeness, which is again partially subjective not only vis a vis the suspect but also by their nature, i.e the problem is not "we conservatives have this uniform definition of broken and any debate is born of a disagreement in standards" but "we cant agree on what the def means much less how this mon relates". But i said that shit already in my earlier post. Entering a discussion about what makes a meta fun is the equivalent of banging Melonz without a condom using Tabasco as lube - painful and indubitably resultant in lasting unpleasant consequences. But we can all agree no one can understand what fun rlly is in an empirical sense.

BACKWARDS ADDRESS OF PREVIOUSLY STATED DISCUSSION POINTS
Im starting here with 2) and you will see why. For something to be banned by virtue of being "not fun", it needs to be generally agreed to be so, by a large segment of the lc populace. I hate to say this, dear reader, but your extra-special views on how fun Diglett is dont really matter; the mechanisms of the Great Antiban Machine have been greased and are now complaining about laddering, but after that im sure they'll say Diglett is nice n fun. So that grounds is out for a ban. SPECULATIVE INTERLUDE: I sat and thought for a little bit about why the "no fun ban" principal might be included. Came up with two reasons. First, Lc is a niche metagame, and if something was shitty enough to deter people from playing, then there needed to be some way to balance it out with more "funness" or w/e. Second, it was probably an "out" if the councils of suspects past counldnt identify a reason they had to ban something they felt harmed lc and could use the vagaries of a word like "fun" to justify it. At first glance, this seems to support a conservative interpretation of "broken": because they needed a specific catchall ban clause, that implies they held broken to be a specific set of principals. But in the spirit of interpretation, it could easily be held that the very inclusion of a catchall ban clause meant they really did want some way to toss shit that was "bad" in a metagame, and the way to interpret that would be to have 2) as a broader ban principal than simply "broken". Unfort, the passage of time and the opening of votes to the public means any subtle intent points written into the rules is likely to be trampled over by the straight-line reading most dudes will do (who have no reason not to). [Disclaimer] the speculation i just did isnt to be taken as fact, but it is one way of looking critically at the intent of the ban rules.

BACKWARDS ADDRESS OF PREVIOUSLY STATED DISCUSSION POINTS, PT II
So here is where I address if Diglett is "broken" i guess. However, "broken" is a Rorschach test or a chimaera - you'll never catch its real face because there is no "real" one. So Im going to try to look at it from ta standard perspective.
~ The classical:

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

This is pretty much Diglett's purpose. When you bring a Diglett, you are trying to open holes for nearly all common sweepers or offensive mons. Im usually adverse to do this bc im more of an analyzer than a definitive opinion-giver, but im going to iron out my opinions of the subjective words / phrases in this statement: "common battle conditions", "consistently", "substantially".
- substantially: yep so starting from the back, what does it mean that a pokemon makes others "substantially" more able to sweep, and how does that relate to Diglett? So Dig does a good job at eliminating common impediments to some common sweepers: chou pawn other steels rocks for Fletchling, Rock- and steel-types for ziggy, etc. Thing about LC specifically is, aside from select few headhunting mons, a lot of pokemon cant pull off full sweeps even if their counters go away due to the abundance of prio and assorted bullshit. But theres no denying having to do so can take multiple mons being weakened or killed and capsizes an entire team's structure, often breaking that team to the point of being gg. Is it substantial? Yeah i'll get back to this after the other two words i dont know yet
- "Consistently": actually this is going to be redundant w/ "common battle conditions" because Dig is a mon whose function varies entirely on battle conditions so im taking them on both at once. Addressed as: "do common battle conditions align consistently enough to give dig devastating effects?" Thinking on smogon.com here (put that on the last schoolboyq album), i can just x = y "consistently" = "easily" w/r/t one game - so can a given player easily enough maneuver himself to a spot where Diglett becomes overwhelming to a defensive core. Thinking common battle conditions here, I must say the large amount of volt-turn is only good for Diglett - while all mons "take advantage" of free switchins, Diglett is the only one that solidifies the advantage with a sure kill. (c/p rubber band, shortening of counterplay window, etc from my earlier posts). [aside: there's a mon that promotes vturns over setting up thats in the meta rn, to a great degree. but im not going to name it]. Rocks help Dig get kills too i guess, though they limit sash dig viability. I flipped on this a few times, but i realized it's an either / or / neither thing between the two halves of the statement. It is either that conditions make it easy for Dig to get a kill, but that kill doesnt mean a sweep happens, or it is really hard to get a kill, but that kill means it is essentially gg. But that isnt so different from a lot of circumstances in mons, although it is "forced" by the trap. This might be a function of teambuilding though, but it doesnt seem like too many contortions are needed in building to prevent Diglett from killing things.

So by this criteria i think im No Ban. subject to change.

 

[Fiend]

This website hates when I post; i wrote this before and it wouldn't let me post plus I've been knee deep with 18th century political cartoons so I'm probably missing something thanks to frustration and boredom; call me out if I am,

The only other tiers to have suspected Trapping/a Trapper (at least in Gen 6) are Ubers and UU, and Ubers got overridden by Chaos, so let's look at UU's result of such a suspect:

we, the uu council, recently came to consider the ability as a whole a broken game mechanic. this is because we noticed that gothorita could do the same thing gothitelle could, in terms of dismantling an entire playstyle (stall/defensive balance). with wobbuffett and gothitelle already banned, we figured the best course of action would be to simply ban the ability and shorten the BL waiting-to-be-tested list.

Gothita, while having a favorable match-up versus stall teams, generally doesn't do more than cripple or remove one pokemon on stall or sweep stall if it runs a non standard set. However, stall does not exist in LC, at least as it does in other tiers. Generally, stall as it stands now is closer to balance, making the removal of one Pokemon not always game ending. Gothita also has the bonus detriment of giving free turns due to reliance on Choice Scarf and generally being super weak in regards to power and bulk. People realize this, and thus don't count Gothita as much of a threat (when was the last time you hear "You're Goth+Pawn weak, you're Goth+Fletch weak, etc), let alone broken.

Diglett has a worse match up versus the nearly nonexistent stall, and a worse (from personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt) matchup versus offense. Balance however finds itself prey to Diglett, though for reasons that are interesting to me. It opens up a hole in Balance via trapping a counter or check to a sweeper on Diglett's side. This gives said sweeper a chance to set up and sweep once it's in. However now you have to pay attention to how this game works. Diglett got in either via a sac or killed Pokemon or slow volt switch or double. Either the Diglett player is down an extra 'mon in order to be able to trap or the other player got outplayed. So Diglett is out on the field, and the team that just lost a 'mon to Duglett has a free switch in. A scarf Pokemon or certain set up sweepers or strong priority can all come in and force Diglett to switch/be sacced/Memento; generally, you should be able to punish them for using Diglett. It traps and that's its niche. It's frail. Something should punish it, and if nothing does, you're building a poor team. At worse, it makes it easier to sweep assuming you're comfortable having a sweeper that cannot break the other team without 1/6th of your team dedicated entirely to supporting it, and then the other 3-4 supporting Diglett so you don't lose to Shellder / Scraggy / Tirtouga / Carvahna / Pawniard / Scarf Chinchou / Scarf Magnemite / Timburr / Cottonee / Pumpkaboo / Scarf Larvesta / Scarf Mienfoo / Corphish / Scarf Houndour / Fucking Deerling / Snubbull / Snivy / Snover / Scarf Bunny (LO works versus non sucker variants) / Dratini / Kabuto which pressure Diglett. That list of pokemon is pulled from the 12 teams in my teambuilder currently, some of which were built well over a year ago and some built just for fun. These are not the best pokemon for beating up Diglett and its friends, but what team can handle all of these once they have a free turn, and you don't pretend that all of your pokemon are perfectly healthy, despite me having 5 other things which also pressure your team. If you run LO Memento / EQ / Rock Slide / Sub you're missing really nice priority making you over all weaker to some of the stronger sweepers, if you run Sucker over Sub you're struggling versus Pawn, without Memento, set up sweepers will walk all over you. This isn't even a "but all of those scenarios require different Pokemon" since the other 5 Pokemon on the other team will tell you what set it is, or they lead Diglett and then you don't have to worry about it.
_ _ _

Diglett bolsters the viability of 8ish pokemon and makes 6ish mons worse; that's not that bad for the meta really. With or without Diglett the 14ish pokemon are still effective in the metagame. I don't see how this is broken other than that trapping limits a core mechanic of the game, despite the fact that you used said mechanic willingly to utilize whatever is being trapped when you're well aware of the risk. It comes across as lazy building, lazy playing, and frankly just boredom of an idle meta despite the fact that is not a reason worthy of banning something.

 

[Water Drone]

ok
Gothita is really bad, no idea why its being suspected. The only reason I can think is that suspecting diglett sounds retarded and tier leaders just said fuck it we'll throw gothita in there to make diglett look more broken in comparison or because a "trapping suspect" sounds more legitimate than a diglett suspect. Tbh id rather use fucking wynaut than gothita.

That being said diglett is a scary pokemon to face, but it really helps against annoying pokemon like Ponyta and Chinchou. It makes people think twice about sending them in, whereas if there was no diglett theyre always free to come in. Diglett is also not without its faults. Its obviously extremely frail. Things like magnemite and chinchou commonly run scarf which can deal with diglett, it just prevents them from spamming volt switch which is really annoying. Overall I think diglett is healthy for the meta and the people who wanted the suspect probably lost one game too many to it because all their teams include chinchou or something. I dont know why people want a diglett suspect all of a sudden, its not much different than last gen, takes care of all the same pokemon. I think this is just an attempt to shake up the meta because other tiers this gen have deemed trapping broken. I think this is very similar to the ubers stag suspect because people want non-broken pokemon banned because of an ability that is "inherently uncompetitive".

Tbh if you wanna shake up the meta unban missy..

 

[Rowan]

we're not doing a suspect test to 'shake up the meta' ...

¬¬

 

[Kingler]

The "inherently uncompetitive" debate is something else entirely and should reflect upon our tiering process as a whole, and as such is not a discussion here. How is Scarf Magnemite/Chinchou dealing with Diglett every time when as you said it stops "annoying volt switches" and proceeds to trap them? Also I'm not sure why you're assuming that people who want Diglett banned are people who "probably lost one game too many to it because all their teams include chinchou or something"? Not everyone has a personal agenda in wanting something banned! Your post doesn't seem to acknowledge the ease with which diglett traps many Pokemon (scouting for scarfs is given lol) and how it helps eliminate counters to various mons such as Mienfoo and Fletchling. Gothita may not be an excellent mon but you're certainly downplaying its effectiveness, it's obviously not banworthy as determined through this thread though.

Diglett is definitely different from other trappers as it has a great level of effectiveness as well as attacking prowess that allows it to trap various threats, which has been reiterated throughout this thread. This suspect definitely has more merit than you're giving it.

 

[Heysup]

we're not doing a suspect test to 'shake up the meta' ...

¬¬

Are you entirely sure about that? Because it feels like we're doing exactly that.

I'm going to skip Gothita because it doesn't seem to have any traction right now despite me thinking it's a bit of a better 'specific mon' trapper over all.

I think Diglett's efficiency mid-game is being vastly overstated. And while it's compared to Gothita, maybe a better comparison is to Abra. To me, Diglett is much like a weaker (albeit 1 point faster) that uses its ability to close the power gap, but not completely. What I mean is this, Abra can force things out by being able to OHKO a large portion of the common metagame (Fighting-types, Pawniard, etc) and 2HKO most things on the switch. Diglett, on the other hand, needs most things to be knocked off and weakened. Sure, they can't switch out but Abra, like a few other fast powerhouses, does not care. Furthermore, Abra does not lose momentum as easily, since bulky AF Pokemon that can beat Abra are very easy to switch into. Diglett, on the other hand, either loses momentum or sacrifices itself via Memento or just dies (not a bad option, tbh). Diglett can obviously trap Abra with Beat Up, but 1v1 comparisons don't hold any weight (in like gen 4 Ludicolo was a common Kyogre counter - no one would use that as a reason to ban Ludicolo as well just because it wins in a vacuum).

Abra is a main pornstar that can finish any dude off right from the start - she doesn't care who the dude is or if they need to switch dudes because she's a diva. Diglett is the fluff girl that comes in to finish a dude off; but can only finish the dude off - unless its a specific dude that everyone knows she can finish off from the start - she doesn't let the dude get away but immediately gets kicked out after she's done her job.

I think it would be a mistake to change the metagame as it is and while I do see the merit in banning an "annoying" threat that makes specific Pokemon less viable, I think it's important that the Pokemon clearly makes the step from annoying to broken.

 

[Rowan]

Are you entirely sure about that? Because it feels like we're doing exactly that.

No, we're doing it because a lot of players called for it. If you wanna think that though, I don't really care to be honest. If we wanted to just shake up the meta, we'd fucking retest Yanma.

Anyway, although Diglett can restrict teambuilding, it's not exactly as if Ponyta, Chinchou etc are unviable. You just have to play differently sometimes, and it's whether this playing differently causes too much of a disadvantage. In my opinion, the fact that Diglett offers no defensive capabilities, off sets this having to play differently because it's like 6 v 5. I think the advantages of Diglett are made up for by the disadvantages. I don't think I would ban it if I was going to be voting.

 

[Celestavian]

I don't like the "6v5" argument because Diglett can, believe it or not, switch into stuff via its immunity to Electric and resistance to Poison. It can get destroyed by mispredicting, but it's still enough of a threat to make you think twice about using Chinchou's Volt Switch or Skrelp's Sludge Wave because Diglett might come in and destroy you. It doesn't offer "no" defensive capabilities, it offers "few" of them. The fear of a double switch or a switch in on a resisted hit is enough to give Diglett some semblance of defensive synergy. It's not a defensive powerhouse by any stretch of the means, but it doesn't have to be (not that anyone said it did) to give some defensive synergy to its team.

Abra is probably the only LC mon that I'd accept the "6v5" argument for.

 

[tcr]

No, we're doing it because a lot of players called for it. If you wanna think that though, I don't really care to be honest. If we wanted to just shake up the meta, we'd fucking retest Yanma.

Anyway, although Diglett can restrict teambuilding, it's not exactly as if Ponyta, Chinchou etc are unviable. You just have to play differently sometimes, and it's whether this playing differently causes too much of a disadvantage. In my opinion, the fact that Diglett offers no defensive capabilities, off sets this having to play differently because it's like 6 v 5. I think the advantages of Diglett are made up for by the disadvantages. I don't think I would ban it if I was going to be voting.

You're thinking of Diglett like you would if it was on a bulky offense team. You aren't playing with 5 mons at all. You're most definitely playing with 6. In the same vein that you need to use momentum and decent plays to bring something like Cranidos or a different glass cannon in, you need to safely bring Diglett in. You don't just randomly bring Carvanha in on an enemy team. You safely switch it in, off of like a psychic attack or a u turn or whatever. Its used on offensive teams in an offensive nature.

A cool little metaphor in how you can think of Diglett versus other teams that I just came up with. Imagine, you're stuck with a little box made of metal. Your goal is to open that box however you can. In a normal 6 team without diglett or gothita, you need to bash open the box with a hammer, slowly wearing it down until a hole breaks through. You gotta use your archen or mienfoo to bust through one of the walls. Simple right? Now imagine you had a crowbar, that you could gradually force the sides open. Still takes a while, but its better than just hammering through. That's Gothita. Slightly better but not really. Now imagine you had a screwdriver, that you could just unscrew the box, and systematically dismantle it. That's Diglett. Its sole job is to remove counters of certain Pokemon, allowing them to break through. Think, CM Spritzee. CM Spritzee hates fighting something like Ponyta. Oh you have Diglett. Well at least I can bring in my Skrelp to counter your CM Spritzee! Oh you have Diglett. What about another Steel-type? Maybe Pawniard? At best its a 50/50. The whole point of diglett is that it slowly dismantles the opponent's team with no counterplay other than "lol don't get trapped xP." Like, what are you going to tell me that every Skrelp or Ponyta should run Shed Shell? Or that every team should run Archen? People bring up the point that "oh Diglett isn't screwing with the meta bc people still run Skrelp and Ponyta, so that means its not cancer." like, those are the best options for offensive teams. Ponyta is literally the best option against most fighting types and pawniard. Mienfoo still gets trapped and easily koed without Evio (literally just volt switch something and deal 60-70 with eq).

just ban diglett already fuck

 

[Shrug]

Abra is probably the only LC mon that I'd accept the "6v5" argument for.

PSA: This is reductionist and false (the rest of his post is good though)

 

[kingmidas]

PSA: This is reductionist and false (the rest of his post is good though)

Why exactly is a pkmn that literally never wants to take an attack, and needs to absolutely be brought in through means of voltturnpass or something already dying. Criticizing 1 irrelevant part of his post and not giving any reasoning as to why doesn't make sense. Anyway onto diglett, yh I gotta agree with celestavian, its not simply something that traps stuff, it is not a normal type, it brings relevant immunities/resistances to the table, if it can find a way to get in it sure as hell is gonna abuse it as long as its not a porygon spamming t-wave lol. TCR's analogy is pretty spot on as well. My main issue I've been seeing on PS is trying to get reasonable arguments from people that are new to the tier/new in general. They say its not broken but never answer why. I really would like to know why when people look at diglett they think it needs to be a murdering machine that isn't limited to certain tasks. Those limited tasks people like to undermine happens to be trapping important pkmn for teams, ones that can't be simply replaced by a pkmn that isn't trapped by diglett, or the argument of stacking multiple answers to one threat, as this is bandaging 1 weakness in return for 5 more. Lets say that you like to bike in a forest full of sticker bushes, and those sticker bushes are so common that you barely ever avoid getting cut up by them. But, as you say everything is fine I have bandages, but you're not solving the problem, you're simply covering up the problem and hoping that nothing worse happens to you then a few more scratches, but these scratches add up, and other threats become so much more threatening. Diglett are the cuts you're covering up and the bushes are the other pkmn that love to use diglett on you.

 

[boo836]

I don't want to admit it, but I've been leaning towards a ban on Diglett. I agree with KM that people seem to be treating Diglett like it isn't (and only) supposed to be a support mon. We should be talking about whether or not Diglett's too versatile as far as its role is concerned, rather than those gems that pop up in PS chat, like "lul its so frail". Having the power to remove certain threats from the game isn't something that should be overlooked lol. Anyways, what's been bugging me about diglett isn't just what it kills, but the fact that it can easily remove threats AND THEN almost always provide a free set up/switch with memento. i'm not just talking about ziggy, but shellder, lo abra, tirtouga, fletchling, archen, bunnelby... it goes on. Furthermore, Diglett has an option to pretty reliably remove Sucker Punch users (i'm looking at you, Pawniard and Stunky), and Abra each, in the forms of Substitute and Beat Up, respectively.

speaking of sucker punch, a lot of people seem to think that Sub matches up in a 50/50. That isn't really accurate. People frequently say the same about Gastly, but I've found that more often than not, that it's more skewed towards the Sub user than Pawn. As you Substitute, your opponent finds themselves pressured to make multiple correct predictions. Even if in each instance there's only two possible outcomes, Substitute has less risk, whereas Pawniard is under constant pressure to make the right move. A real 50/50 would be more like subfletch vs lo dour or something

 

[Akkeshi]

speaking of sucker punch, a lot of people seem to think that Sub matches up in a 50/50. That isn't really accurate. People frequently say the same about Gastly, but I've found that more often than not, that it's more skewed towards the Sub user than Pawn. As you Substitute, your opponent finds themselves pressured to make multiple correct predictions. Even if in each instance there's only two possible outcomes, Substitute has less risk, whereas Pawniard is under constant pressure to make the right move. A real 50/50 would be more like subfletch vs lo dour or something

This is probably the only problem I have had with diglett, trapping things like chinch and skrelp are honestly the way it should be. Arena trap is an ability that forces you to think about your plays before mindlessly hitting volt switch or switching into a poison type.
I always let it sub twice before committing to a sucker punch, but this is often wrong and if I'm right I'm "just lucky". If anything this just lets diglett become more weakened and easier to revenge (if it does KO you pawniard), it's down to ~45% HP and really allows the forward momentum to shift if you can get a uturn out on it. I understand why people don't like trapping because it makes them feel uncertain about certain plays but I think it's a mechanic that's quite hard to exploit in LC as it can be in other tiers.

I would be surprised to see many people vote ban and maintain that trapping, while being occasionally annoying and forcing you to second-guess certain plays is not in the slightest bit gamebreaking.

 

[Spinblade 237]

Originally, I was all for the Diglett ban (not Goth, she can stay always), until I started playing yesterday. I was actually trying to get reqs to vote, and after 20 or so battles, i decided I was against the Diglett ban. At least 8 battles I played had both Dig and Goth on the opposing team, and while their presence did prevent me from spamming volt switch, I found diglett didn't really have an adverse effect on how well I did. I had bulkychou and ponyta on my team, yet I found that as long as I played smart (not necessarily safe, just smart), diglett wasn't a problem. Gothita actually put in more work against my team than diglett in EVERY battle I played. I'd say that diglett doesn't really have that game breaking hype that people give it. As a "sweeper" (for those of you who continue to argue that its role is as a cleaner/sweeper) it fails to succeed, due in no small part to ground and rock resists; and as a trapper, it has the capacity to do well but only in the arms of a capable player, unlike a mon that could be classified as traditionally "broken," where they were guaranteed a kill every game. So I'd say I'm NO BAN.

 

[pj]

Damm got reqs before 100 games naw Gotta put some of my thoughts bout these Mons first of all
Gothi-a very interesting Mon a very gud Mon too but is it broken? Noooo its not broken at all I have seen scarf gothi unable to 0kho most of the mons and speed is not so great having to come in on a fighting mons require a prediction Cuz it can always use knock off and can get u turned too gets rekt by others scarf mons it require a sack to come in free so with this I would vote no ban
Dugri-a relatively fast Mon wch can abuse areana trap and have decent moves+moves like Sr toxic memento but question is is it broken again I am gonna say no cuz its struggle with most of balky mons cant come in most of times require a free turn to come in.and saw struggling to okho most of times so I would vote no ban
Sry if I am wrg

 

[H-C]

Alright, here's my piece of salt before everyone votes.

Gothita : Interesting mon but I feel like it has a niche in the tier. Okay you'll adapt its moveset to what ur team needs but overall it's quite weak. Bulk is definitely not that good and it absolutely NEEDS choice scarf to be able to do some shit. It's SAtk is not even that good so can't kill what you use it for (yeah it weakens those mons but w/e). I never found that it was that broken hence i'll vote no ban.

Diglett : 20 Speed on its own so faster than any not scarfed mon in the tier. Has a great movepool in memento / sr / edgequake / sucker / beat up (use w/e move u want). It also has a decent atk and w/ LO it hits like a truck or w/ the sash it's annoying as hell to remove it. It'll like always remove one mon or allow another one to setup. It may be limited to certain task and won't 6-0 your team, it'll create a hole in it which is huge enough to let other things set up so i'll vote to ban it