Giratina origin forme (discussion thread)

[ultimifier]

he wasn't. some people just don't understand the concept of how good 680 BST is, regardless of distribution.

and i think this giratina will be quite solid. ghost/dragon is one of the best possible STABs to have in ubers, hitting many ubers for Super effective damage. the only pokemon who wall stab dragon/ghost off 120 (S) ATK are steels and blissey. Steels could be WoW and there are many ways to get around blissey. I haven't really looked at his full movepool, but dragon pulse, shadow ball, WoW, filler would be a pretty good set, ESPECIALLY with some speed passed to it.

 

[Deck Knight]

he wasn't. some people just don't understand the concept of how good 680 BST is, regardless of distribution.

and i think this giratina will be quite solid. ghost/dragon is one of the best possible STABs to have in ubers, hitting many ubers for Super effective damage. the only pokemon who wall stab dragon/ghost off 120 (S) ATK are steels and blissey. Steels could be WoW and there are many ways to get around blissey. I haven't really looked at his full movepool, but dragon pulse, shadow ball, WoW, filler would be a pretty good set, ESPECIALLY with some speed passed to it.

Thought experiment for anyone doubting Oratina's Uberness.

Take Celebi.

Give it better resistances, no 4x weak, a larger, less resistable offensive movepool, and approx. 30% greater offensive power on STABs.

Reduce speed slightly, but not enough for +Speed versions to lose to unboosted Base 100s.

Add 100 HP.

That is all.

 

[Jibaku]

Okay in the previous page someone asked for Shadow Force discussion

So I'm going to try my best on it.

Shadow Force is an underrated move. It is by no means a top tier move unlike Close Combat or Draco Meteor, but it's pretty usable.

Before we start anything let's assume no Normal types are in play, or this move becomes completely useless except for maybe scouting for Blisseys. So get rid of Blissey first.

Let's first look at the move itself. It has a whooping 120 B.P, making it the most powerful Ghost type move in the game. Add STAB, perfect accuracy, a base 120 Attack and Platinum Orb and this move can even dent resisters bar Dialga/Skarmory/Forretress.

This comes at a cost, however, and that's the charge turn. The charge turn telegraphs the attack, which is what hurts this move's viability more than anything else. Although the user is invulnerable during the vanishing period, if the opponent switches in on the charge turn Giratina could be left vulnerable. Giratina, however, has a semi-remedy to this problem: By being as slow as possible

Giratina, at absolute minimum speed, reaches 166, making it as slow as a no Speed Scizor. This means Giratina underspeeds Pokemon such as Metagross and Kyogre, and therefore, if Pokemon like these (I'm not saying Kyogre is going to switch into Giratina, fyi) switch on the turn Giratina is charging, they are forced to attack you first during your invincibility period. Then Giratina unleashes Shadow Force in hopes of doing serious damage, and then it's time for a new turn, allowing Giratina to escape whatever barbaric punishment it could've received if it was faster than the opponent (like a Specs Dragon Pulse from Dialga).

Of course, it's only a semi remedy. There are counters to this move that are not Normal types. Dark or Steel types with really high defense can wall this move and not care. The ultimate non Normal counter to this move appears to be Tyranitar, who resists Shadow Force and is slower than Giratina. Tyranitar can inflict almost lethal damage with Choice Banded Crunch or Payback, and adds Sandstream to the pain due to the item restriction on OriginTina. Beware of Pokemon that can use this move to set up, such as Dialga or Forretress. Darkrai could set up on this move, but it can take over 50% from Shadow Force so it must do so carefully. Since this only covers what could happen if they switched to their Shadow Force resister DURING the charge turn, Giratina can obviously escape punishment if they didn't switch in during the charge turn. If they do, they're risking an Outrage or something else in the face.

So with that said Outrage/Rest/STalk/Shadow Force isn't a bad set. While sleeping, your chances of picking Outrage is increased to 50% as Talk doesn't pick Shadow Force, and when you're awake you have two offensive moves to choose from.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Huh, I just did a calc or two to compare Another Giratina's and Origin Giratina's powers...

A-Giratina has 252 EVs on Attack and Adamant nature (328 stat), and a Life Orb.
O-Giratina has 252 EVs on Attack and Adamant nature (372 stat), and Platinum Orb.

Both use Dragon Claw on a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Mew...

A-Tina does 28-33% damage.
O-Tina does 29-35% damage.

Yeah, I know, A-Tina loses 10% HP when attacking, but it can take hits (slightly?) better, and has 90 Base Speed, like O-Tina. So, it seems O-Tina's real advantage is not losing HP when attacking, but it trades 20 Base Points in each defense, and the chance of doing more damage with Non-Dragon/Ghost moves to get this little advantage.

What the shit is this, Game Freak. What. The. Shit.



Oh wait, I forgot about Knock Off/Trick immunity and Levitate. Take that, Groudon! (why does Game Freak hate you so much lol)

 

[Pombo]

Well, this is an almost useless pokemon, IMO.
Knock-Off and Trick immunity isnt that great, bar enetering in the brand new Trick-Lugia.
It can`t make POWERFULL attacks, neither nothing else. It has no main role. A Rayquaza/Darkrai/Mewtwo can sweep an unprepared team. But O-Tina can`t make a real sweep, and is slowly killed by everything (well, it isnt fast for ubers, AND cant recover (bar rest, which isnt that great, due to Steel types blocking his outrage)

 

[Jibaku]

Sigh
I wish people would stop saying this Pokemon is terrible. Look at Heatran back then. Look at him now.

It's most likely not top in ubers, I can say that, but 'almost useless' is way too much of an overstatement

 

[Tortured_Soul]

Hmmm, I'd hit it. ;P

Anyway the scarf set seems nice, but the cm set umbarsc mentioned sounds amazing. I think he will be uber, in both forms.

Unfortunately, the Platinum Orb must be equipped to Giratina for it to stay in Origin Forme. Because of this, Choice Scarf Origin Giratina sets aren't possible, without it being hacked in some way.

 

[gengod]

It's most likely not top in ubers,

To be honest I'd even disagree with this statement.

Sure it can't change items but it has more than enough advantages in Ubers to outweigh its disadvantages. I foresee this being greatly overlooked in the beginning of the Platinum metagame, but I wouldn't underestimate it's potential as a great Uber sweeper despite that 90 base speed most people are complaining about.

 

[Shinryu]

Sigh
I wish people would stop saying this Pokemon is terrible. Look at Heatran back then. Look at him now.

It's most likely not top in ubers, I can say that, but 'almost useless' is way too much of an overstatement

Actually, I've always liked Heatran, lol.

Overall, while I don't think that Origin form is useless, I just don't think Origin form offers any real advantage over the Alternate form. Yes, Origin form has 20 points higher in Atk and SpA, but is that really enough to justify turning him from an awesome wall into a somewhat subpar sweeper (especially if you consider that there are already enough sweepers in ubers)? And like everyone has already said, base 90 Spe hurts; he ties with Kyogre or Groudon at best, and is outsped by the more deadlier sweepers that will likely 2HKO him before he can KO back or set up or anything.

Now of course, if Origin form had its Spe stat also changed with its HP stat (like everyone was hoping), then hands down he'd be completely awesome. But otherwise, is it really that differentiating by just switching the Atk and Def stats?

 

[Jibaku]

Overall, while I don't think that Origin form is useless, I just don't think Origin form offers any real advantage over the Alternate form. Yes, Origin form has 20 points higher in Atk and SpA, but is that really enough to justify turning him from an awesome wall into a somewhat subpar sweeper (especially if you consider that there are already enough sweepers in ubers)? And like everyone has already said, base 90 Spe hurts; he ties with Kyogre or Groudon at best, and is outsped by the more deadlier sweepers that will likely 2HKO him before he can KO back or set up or anything.

Now of course, if Origin form had its Spe stat also changed with its HP stat (like everyone was hoping), then hands down he'd be completely awesome. But otherwise, is it really that differentiating by just switching the Atk and Def stats?

Okay

"Not real advantages" isn't exactly the right word here. 20 BS more boost in Special Attack allows Giratina to go as far as 2HKOing Groudon, whereas its another forme can't without the aid of Life Orb, which will hurt it, or Choice Specs, which locks it into one move. The boosted offensive stats allow a mixed set to be built, which really isn't threatening when put on Another Forme, and lastly, at maximum Attack, Dragon Claw can 2HKO Bliss, something that Another Forme can only achieve with Choice Band or Life Orb

I honestly wouldn't say Subpar. First of all, he has 150 HP and 100 Defenses, which are insane for sweeper standards. That means he isn't dying quickly, despite his weaknesses. Secondly, he has 3 immunities and 6 resistances. Thirdly, his offensive movepool is good. Aura Sphere/Draco Meteor/Outrage/Thunder/Shadow Ball/Earthquake/Dragon Pulse/Claw...that's quite a bit to choose from, as well has having nice support options in Calm Mind/Rest/Sleep Talk/Will-o-Wisp/Substitute. Honestly not much is going to be able to switch into Origin Giratina without being threatened. While the movepool isn't an advantage over Another Forme, it can be noted that Origin Giratina does the sweeping part better with these moves. Some of these you would rarely see on Another Forme can become more common here, such as Thunder and Aura Sphere

90 base speed is disgraceful, but still, it's not THAT slow. 306 beats common Kyogres/Groudons/Dialgas/Another Giratinas and Adamant Rays. Most of these guys don't run max speed, as they usually serve as something else in the team (Rest/Talk Ogre, SR Groudon, BU Dialga), so that's Giratina's ticket against them.

 

[Deck Knight]

Actually, I've always liked Heatran, lol.

Overall, while I don't think that Origin form is useless, I just don't think Origin form offers any real advantage over the Alternate form. Yes, Origin form has 20 points higher in Atk and SpA, but is that really enough to justify turning him from an awesome wall into a somewhat subpar sweeper (especially if you consider that there are already enough sweepers in ubers)? And like everyone has already said, base 90 Spe hurts; he ties with Kyogre or Groudon at best, and is outsped by the more deadlier sweepers that will likely 2HKO him before he can KO back or set up or anything.

Now of course, if Origin form had its Spe stat also changed with its HP stat (like everyone was hoping), then hands down he'd be completely awesome. But otherwise, is it really that differentiating by just switching the Atk and Def stats?

Maybe we should rethink how we play O-Giratina. O-Giratina is basically Gengar on steroids. It has 3 immunities and a few useful resistances, and a high-powered, diverse offensive movepool. I grant you that it is slower, but just like being Ghost/Dragon makes it weak to most moves in Ubers, it generally has STAB where the other pokemon (bar Dragons) do not. And it isn't as if 150/100/100 is suddenly horrible either. It's the same as Mew only with a fixed 100 more HP.

One other hidden benefit: O-Giratina is immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes, so although it can't get Leftovers, it can't be wittled down by any Forretress setup either.

Lets take for example, a Will-O-Wisp/Rest/Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse set with maxed HP/Defense. After a Burn, Outrage is going to be just another attack that just bounces off Giratina short of a crit. In the meantime, you've got an impossibly bulky special wall after a Calm Mind that can hit any pokemon with a supercharged Dragon Pulse. I'm sure kinks can be worked out, but even losing a lot of its Bulk, all of its STABs, both of which hit a lot in Ubers for SE damage, have a constant boost.

Consider that Giratina's untouched SA is 276. If you only intend to use STAB, its effective stat is 331. Mewtwo's untouched SA is 344 and Dialga/Palkia's is 336.

If you were to max SA + nature, Mewtwo's is 448, Dialga/Palkia's is 439, and O-Giratina's is 446, right in between the two.

You can do the same with Attack, with O-Giratina's Max Attack natured Outrage is essentially equal to unboosted Rayquaza's

Adamant PO Outrage on Max/Max +Def Blissey: 62-73%
Adamant Rayquaza Outrage on Max/Max +Def Blissey: 61-71%.

Granted Rayquaza can DD, Focus Sash, Choice Band, etc, but O-Giratina has the most raw power, no ugly 4x weakness, and crazy, crazy defenses.

 

[Jibaku]

It is important to note that you should generally run over 329 Atk/SA if running in one particular side, unless you REALLY need Levitate/Trick immunity, because otherwise Another Forme can catch up to you.

For instance, you have CM/Rest/Roar/Pulse Origintina with 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SA Bold. This gives you 504 HP , 328 Defense and 277 SA. Another forme can run 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 SA Bold @ Draco Plate to get the exact same results, but at the same time, Another Forme ends with 276 Special Defense whereas Origin ends up with 236.

(Speaking of boosts can someone confirm if Platinum Orb gives a 20% boost?)

 

[IcyMan28]

All I have to say is that while Origin Forme does have versatility in choosing its attacks, a Choiced Another Forme still hits harder (and with ALL attacks, not just dragon and ghost) while retaining greater bulk and potentially equal speed. Origin Forme Giratina seems to be well adapted to mixed or CM sets, because when it comes to pure power Another Forme can still hit hard.

 

[MM_Zero]

Oo, never noticed my thread came back alive. Mixed sets look nice on this thing, but I can't just help to see that MixDialga sort of does it a lot better, with better sp.atk and one of the best typing. Also not to mention the same speed as Giratina. But, I like the stab on the ghost moves for Giratina.

Shadow Force is seriously underrated, but it all depends on how you use it, and if your opponent expects it. 120 base power, and the possiblility of getting a protect too is real nice.

All in all, this thing seems a lot like how Ho-oh is. It's got flaws, its underrated, but it really does have a lot of potential.

 

[Ike]

To be honest I'd even disagree with this statement.

Sure it can't change items but it has more than enough advantages in Ubers to outweigh its disadvantages. I foresee this being greatly overlooked in the beginning of the Platinum metagame, but I wouldn't underestimate it's potential as a great Uber sweeper despite that 90 base speed most people are complaining about.

i've used origin tina and I would have to say that I have to disagree with you maniac. I don't think that origin tina is top tier seeing as it really doesnt have any advantages over other pokes. It doesn't have the raw power or def. of a latitwin if using a cm set and gets KOed by modest unboosted palkia's draco meteor even after one CM with SR up. Mix sets are better utilized by someone like ray who boasts a higher speed and atk and spc atk. All in all tina may be a good pokemon but it is simply outclassed by other ubers who can do its job simply better. His typing is just horrible for defense in ubers as well.

 

[Bourbon]

I'm sort of dissapointed, to be honest. The speed is fairly lackluster and the offensive stats aren't even that good. 372 is like on par with Granbull and stuff. And 90 base speed isn't terribly fast either.

I suppose it has some impressive bulk on it's side, but 120 attack and 90 speed isn't terribly frightening. Especially since it can't use proper items.

 

[Ike]

Maybe we should rethink how we play O-Giratina. O-Giratina is basically Gengar on steroids. It has 3 immunities and a few useful resistances, and a high-powered, diverse offensive movepool. I grant you that it is slower, but just like being Ghost/Dragon makes it weak to most moves in Ubers, it generally has STAB where the other pokemon (bar Dragons) do not. And it isn't as if 150/100/100 is suddenly horrible either. It's the same as Mew only with a fixed 100 more HP.

One other hidden benefit: O-Giratina is immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes, so although it can't get Leftovers, it can't be wittled down by any Forretress setup either.

Lets take for example, a Will-O-Wisp/Rest/Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse set with maxed HP/Defense. After a Burn, Outrage is going to be just another attack that just bounces off Giratina short of a crit. In the meantime, you've got an impossibly bulky special wall after a Calm Mind that can hit any pokemon with a supercharged Dragon Pulse. I'm sure kinks can be worked out, but even losing a lot of its Bulk, all of its STABs, both of which hit a lot in Ubers for SE damage, have a constant boost.

Consider that Giratina's untouched SA is 276. If you only intend to use STAB, its effective stat is 331. Mewtwo's untouched SA is 344 and Dialga/Palkia's is 336.

If you were to max SA + nature, Mewtwo's is 448, Dialga/Palkia's is 439, and O-Giratina's is 446, right in between the two.

You can do the same with Attack, with O-Giratina's Max Attack natured Outrage is essentially equal to unboosted Rayquaza's

Adamant PO Outrage on Max/Max +Def Blissey: 62-73%
Adamant Rayquaza Outrage on Max/Max +Def Blissey: 61-71%.

Granted Rayquaza can DD, Focus Sash, Choice Band, etc, but O-Giratina has the most raw power, no ugly 4x weakness, and crazy, crazy defenses.

Yea the thing is O tina has to have a Plat orb to equal them and they have no items. Tina is stuck with the same item while they have surprise on their side due to their item, they can boost their atk past tina while still boasting a speed stat which makes them already superior to tina or use a scarf and ray has SD which makes ray even better coompared to O- Tina. It might not have a 4x Weakness but Tinas crappy defensive typing and weakness to Rai is just as bad seeing as with SR up ray would fall to an ice beam from mew2 and ogre anyway even without 4x weakness.

 

[Jibaku]

i've used origin tina and I would have to say that I have to disagree with you maniac. I don't think that origin tina is top tier seeing as it really doesnt have any advantages over other pokes. It doesn't have the raw power or def. of a latitwin if using a cm set and gets KOed by modest unboosted palkia's draco meteor even after one CM with SR up. Mix sets are better utilized by someone like ray who boasts a higher speed and atk and spc atk. All in all tina may be a good pokemon but it is simply outclassed by other ubers who can do its job simply better. His typing is just horrible for defense in ubers as well.

I'm going to disagree with you a bit here. Even though I don't think he is top tier unlike Maniac, I think you're underrating him a bit, even if you have used him
Let's remember this for a second. Latias may have a higher SDef (Latios about the same as Origin), but Origintina has a much higher defense and doesn't die to stuff like Scizor.
You can't assume that every Gira is going to be running no HP/Def. The latest Gira spread I made allows him to survive even as far as a Spacial Rend from a Timid Palkia (unboosted on both sides) after two Stealth Rock hits while keeping its higher SA than Gira-A, which at the same time means stuff like Modest Draco Meteor isn't going to KO anytime soon after CM.

I disagree with his typing being defensively deficient. He has 3 immunities and 6 resists. Electric and Water are pretty used in ubers, and the rest are simply nice extra stuff. Ground immunity can also mean something, even if Groudon packs Dragon Claw. He may be weak to the most common stuff in ubers but he has the defense(s) to take them and dish back out. Maybe not directly, but I'm sure that if he gets as much as one CM it makes a difference.

 

[User 12783]

I plan on making a team based around this Pokemon, and then me and Jibaku could battle after I practice, and if I don't just get raped (lol), we'll make a warstory out of it highlighting OrginTina to it's fullest. I'm waiting for Skymin to get Uber-ized though.

 

[Raj]

The main problem that I've noticed is that it's stuck with PLatinum Orb- that's some gay shit. It'd make an awesome Mix Scarfer..

 

[Darkflagrance]

Ironically, even though the Platinum Orb changes Giratina's outward appearance, in terms of actual effect it's really just a slightly more powerful Diamond or Pearl Orb. I rarely see Palkia/Dialga equipped with their respective orbs because the orbs don't give enough power; the same reasoning/discrimination can apply to O-Tina.

 

[umbarsc]

What are you talking about, Palkia runs Lustrous Orb all the time. (Although Scarf is probably the most common recently)

 

[AbsolDeath]

This is my personal opinion but I've seen a few Giratina's around but it hasn't been keeping up with the Metagame too much. Many things either OH/2HKO it and its outspeeded by a lot. Timid Dialga does 89%ish so its really not all that bulky. Sure, with a sub up, you could start CM'ing and attempt a sweep, but I like old Giratina's bulkiness for the occasion. Also, even with the personal downsides I see, some players have been using Giratina nicely. One of the few being Maniac, SubForce must be fun. =)

 

[umbarsc]

Timid Dialga does 89%ish so its really not all that bulky

If it's living through a 140 BP STAB attack coming from base 150 SpA, I'd consider that to be "bulky".

 

[Ike]

If it's living through a 140 BP STAB attack coming from base 150 SpA, I'd consider that to be "bulky".

Thats with aCm at least cuz another form is OHKOed by DM already.