Expanded Tier List - What If?

[Altissimo]

Permission received from DHR to post this, it might be moved to OI general later tho

So I saw this topic earlier which got locked after pointing the original poster to the IGTL section of the forum, which makes sense as the IGTL is the single-player arm of Smogon. However it got me lamenting a little bit about this board, and the reason why is because, once a tier list is done and written up and put on-site, there's no real room for reopening the topic or re-evaluating the Pokémon after the fact. I'm a little sad that discussions are basically tied to the temporal aspect of "is this thread open and am I a registered user at the time it's open", so with permission from the mods, I'd like to start a topic for discussing single-player tierings, strategies, etc.

This however is called the "expanded" tier list because it's going to allow for discussions of some aspects that the in-game tier lists usually don't cover:

• Obtaining Pokémon earlier than they would otherwise be obtained, or in games they aren't normally obtainable, through methods such as trading, trading Eggs, glitches, or hacking (only as long as the hacking is used to only get the Pokémon and not modify any aspect of it)
• Tiering Pokémon in relation to specific challenge runs, such as Nuzlockes, monotype challenges, etc
• Discussing interesting egg moves (normally skipped due to the inefficiency of breeding) or tradeback TM/Tutor moves
• Discussing other glitches or oversights that can affect a Pokémon's performance (so X Acc/OHKO move strats can finally be discussed)
• Discussing how making non-standard routing decisions in a region, or going out of your way to backtrack or go to an optional area, can yield rewards for a Pokémon or your whole team that might be skipped in a normal tier list due to being inefficient
• Discussing the best Pokémon to use for side options, like catching other Pokémon in things like Pokédex playthroughs, Bug Catching Contest solo mons, Contests, Pokeathlon, etc

Basically, anything goes so long as a) you're only discussing the vanilla games, and not romhacks and b) the Pokémon's internal data isn't modified in any way.

I also encourage you to use the Tier Maker and to get into heated discussions with other users so long as you're mutually respectful - it's only a game, remember, and opinions are opinions!

If this gets very popular, we might consider splitting it up by game to make it a less crowded topic, but for now let's see how this goes in a single topic.

I don't have much to say myself as I haven't really played Pokémon much in the past few years. If someone wants to take over this topic (or future spin-offs of this topic) to keep track of tiering discussions or anything, that's fine by me, just contact me and a mod and we can see what we can do. I just wanted an excuse to see people discuss in game stuff again, I see these discussions all the time on the r/Fire Emblem discord and it's honestly fun (most of the time)

 

[Merritt]

If trading is enabled, the player can do some very impressive things in Pokemon Emerald. No, this isn't about trading over a level 100 Pokemon and then fighting the rng of disobedience, this is way more interesting.

With the sole requirement of having a separate copy of the game that has access to the Battle Frontier (or barring that, the willingness to do a lot of resetting and trading a different copy to make up for not utilizing the cloning glitch), it is possible to give the mostly fresh copy of Emerald access to ACE eggs. The fresh game only needs the ability to catch Pokemon (for trading) and the ability to access their PC boxes (for editing box names), both of which are achieved pretty much immediately after the first rival battle.

Doing this, you can utilize the ACE egg and some very specific box names to warp to Navel Rock, catch the level 70 Lugia or Ho-Oh (or both if you feel up to banging your head against the RNG wall twice), take the boat back to Lilycove, and then hatch another ACE egg to warp to the stairs before Wallace and utilize your high powered legendary Pokemon. If you'd prefer to use Soul Dew level 50 Lati@s and warp to Southern Island, by all means. I believe that you can also skip Wallace and warp directly to the Hall of Fame room, but that might be seen as too non-standard of a routing decision.

Basically, I'd like to nominate ACE egg in Emerald for S rank for its support capabilities, allowing the player to get past every single HM gate in the game as well as quickly get through the vast majority of the battles, something that very few other Pokemon can even begin to claim.

 

[Eeveeto]

If Nuzlockes Tier list get done, Meganium instantly becomes like A rank in Johto games due to being almost unkillable with the right partner. All it needs is a Rock type partner in early game, so, provided dupes are not allowed, game will go like this:
-You go to Dark Cave and have a 60% to have Geodude as first encounter. If you get it, you have pretty much won, almost everything that threatens Chikorita line gets walled and beaten by Geodude line. If you get a Zubat, tough luck, but not game over. You just need to somehow defeat Falkner (sacking Mons if necesary as long as Chikorita is alive at the end of the battle) and go to Union Cave. You also have a (very small outside of swarms) chance to get a Dunsparce, which is an incredible Mon early game.
-If you have caught a Zubat, then Zubat won,t be your first encounter in Union Cave. That means a very high chance to get either Geodude or Onix there. This allows you to beat Bugsy, Whitney and Morty pretty easily (Whitney with Bayleef is already doable though). From there, Meganium will destroy Chuck, Jasmine's Steelix (that if you don,t Surf it with one of your 32323 Waters), Pryce and Claire's Kingdra. Without trades, Onix becomes terrible late game, but Graveler stays decent. With trade, Steelix is actually good but even without trade, you will have access to good Mons to support Meganium by then.

So, I am all for this

 

[bdt2002]

-If you have caught a Zubat, then Zubat won,t be your first encounter in Union Cave. That means a very high chance to get either Geodude or Onix there. This allows you to beat Bugsy, Whitney and Morty pretty easily (Whitney with Bayleef is already doable though). From there, Meganium will destroy Chuck, Jasmine's Steelix (that if you don,t Surf it with one of your 32323 Waters), Pryce and Claire's Kingdra. Without trades, Onix becomes terrible late game, but Graveler stays decent. With trade, Steelix is actually good but even without trade, you will have access to good Mons to support Meganium by then.

So, I am all for this

Big brain strats: go straight to Union Cave and get your encounter there first: If your encounter here is a Zubat, then you're (almost- Dunsparce exists) guaranteed a Geodude encounter if or when you backtrack to Dark Cave after the fact.

In an effort to keep existing collected information organized, I would personally want to see these expanded Tier Lists separate from their original versions. I'd imagine this probably goes without saying, but we don't need stuff like, say, Pokémon Dream Radar mons (especially the Legendaries) messing with the existing Black 2 & White 2 in-game tier list, for example. I'd just rather be safe than sorry, you know?

 

[Eeveeto]

Big brain strats: go straight to Union Cave and get your encounter there first: If your encounter here is a Zubat, then you're (almost- Dunsparce exists) guaranteed a Geodude encounter if or when you backtrack to Dark Cave after the fact.

Yes, but problem here is that you still need to beat Falkner first, preferably without overleveling him hard (if you do that, every Mon becomes good and fun is lost). Odds of beating Falkner are significantly higher with Geodude than without it.

 

[Altissimo]

In an effort to keep existing collected information organized, I would personally want to see these expanded Tier Lists separate from their original versions. I'd imagine this probably goes without saying, but we don't need stuff like, say, Pokémon Dream Radar mons (especially the Legendaries) messing with the existing Black 2 & White 2 in-game tier list, for example. I'd just rather be safe than sorry, you know?

That's the goal! This isn't really an official list and I don't plan to manage it in any capacity. if someone wants to actually manage this kind of thing tho be my guest

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

There are some interesting possibilities here, but it's hard to pick something with so many options...

RBY with the Stadium Bag would be hilarious though. Since the guards don't require a key item, getting any old Fresh Water in your bag busts Kanto wide open because you can open the Saffron gates as soon as you get the Dig TM.

That means extremely busted things like Abra getting Psychic before Misty, or more trivial endeavors like Eevee, Doduo, or Dratini early.

Speaking of Stadium... Stadium 2 gives out a Lv. 5 EQ Gligar to GSC. That ought to shoot it up a few tiers.

 

[doipy hooves]

I like this idea and it relates to a Gen 9 topic I've been thinking about for a while. The thing that comes up in each Scarlet/Violet event raid thread (basically the main battling challenge of postgame) is usually about how to make specific counter builds and how strong/consistent they work at the time, but there hasn't been a topic of comparing each individual mon's performance across all the raids overall. It is to be expected when one raid doesn't affect the other outside of saving you the time of building a new counter, but I like to work with what I have. To start off I made a short list just based on who has the highest number of confirmed 7 star raid solo clears for my own reference. I prefer solo as the base to rate individual mons, since group settings have a lot more setup options and leeway with what can succeed and isn't single player anyway.

https://tiermaker.com/create/every-single-pokemon-2024-indigo-disk-update--482147

Azumarill: solos Charizard, Greninja, Samurott, Typhlosion, Inteleon, Chesnaught, Delphox, Rillaboom, Hisuian Decidueye, Hisuian Typhlosion, Eevee, Hisuian Samurott, Iron Bundle, Blaziken, Empoleon, Venusaur, Blastoise (17/21 missing Cinderace, Decidueye, Pikachu, Mewtwo), being the winningest soloist so far. The Greninja video is the one external source, but Charizard is well known by now and everything else I've documented personally on Smogon. Azumarill has also soloed all the limited 5-star events so far (Walking Wake/Iron Leaves/Dialga/Palkia), but I don't count those on the same level outside of the outlier of Iron Leaves because of the level gap and the fact that they're version exclusive.

Annihilape: I haven't heard much of it on the forums lately but I imagine it still solos things just as well by stacking multipliers and Rage Fist. Of all things I think Annihilape is the most likely contender for highest number of clears thanks to its availability. Just from looking around the Internet, Annihilape has clears for Charizard, Cinderace, Greninja, Pikachu, Samurott, Typhlosion, Inteleon, Chesnaught, Rillaboom, Hisuian Decidueye, Eevee, Hisuian Samurott, Iron Bundle, Empoleon, Venusaur, Blastoise. I was not able to find a clear for the original Flying Decidueye, Delphox, Mewtwo, Hisuian Typhlosion, or Blaziken, so overall Annihilape has a respectable 16 clears but Azumarill still has the lead.

Arceus/Mew: Both have the same potential legitimate availability, missing out on the 8 pre-HOME raids (before Chesnaught), but pretty much became the strongest generalist options around after that point with full coverage potential. I assume they clear everything since with Mew having 13 and Arceus having 12 at best. Mew gets a bonus point for having a Mewtwo solo despite its unreliability, thanks to being distributed for it + getting a stat buff and I don't think Arceus has actually soloed Mewtwo, notably lacking most of Mew's tools to do so.

Magearna: Kind of similar to Annihilape where I haven't heard much of it lately but was pretty good in general with Soul-Heart spam and a solid defensive typing. Has the same availability as the HOME legendaries but also has less to work with, so I assume it doesn't get past much more than Arceus, probably failing in some bad matchups like Hisuian Typhlosion and Venusaur, so arguably it falls closer to the tier below.

Miraidon/Bellibolt/everything else: These two are basically the mons for the job when it comes to an Electric weak raid, and sometimes neutral matchups. This is also the place where most other non-generalist mons (Slowbro, Ceruledge, etc) fall under because they are mainly used as counters for raids with a type advantage, and so it's a lot harder to find clears for any other matchups that most people just use an easier counter for. I didn't count at this point, but it would probably come down to how many raids end up in favourable matchups since most people aren't trying out Miraidon against Eevee or at least not documenting it. Skeledirge gets an honorable mention for having a confirmed Mewtwo solo though and pioneering the use of cheer preservation through fainting.

Marill: Charizard, Chesnaught, Delphox, Typhlosion-H, Eevee, Samurott-H, Blaziken, Blastoise (8/21). This is more just a comparison as the closest mon to Azumarill and provides some insight on how much having more stats makes the difference for a realistically achieveable win. I think Marill could take Typhlosion too but I didn't start using it until Chesnaught. Note: I couldn't find a Marill clear of Charizard, but there is an Azurill one and the Normal type doesn't give any advantage, so I count it for Marill too. So far Azurill only has solos for Charizard and Chesnaught (+ Palkia). Technically Marill might have more clears than some mons above but I have not actually counted for all of them.

So what does this tell us? I can objectively say that Azumarill is the GOAT of 7-star raid solos under this criteria, and I am open to seeing any claims of a mon having more solo clears proving otherwise or any other takes on the matter of best generalist that I haven't accounted for. I learned a lot about Annihilape in the process though, and I will admit it has a respectable and more realistic performance as a base game mon and is more widely used than Azumarill. Then there just wasn't much else to find after the fact because the other main generalists are just Arceus/Mew and most people just use counters when they're relevant. Maybe if these raids were infinitely playable instead of time-limited then there would probably be more discussion to have about the specific counters and how many clears a certain mon has, but for now this is the best I could come up with for the lack of data.

Something to note is that 3.0.0 (December 2023) buffed the AI partners significantly by allowing them to use status buffs like Gardevoir's Life Dew, Arboliva's Safeguard, and Bellibolt's Light Screen, affecting all raids starting from the middle of Dialga/Palkia, so any reruns will have more leeway for clears using those newly buffed partners. Also if all the past/pre-HOME starters are rerunned, then Mew will probably be the only mon at #1 with a potential solo for every mon and Arceus following behind without a Mewtwo clear, though there is still an argument for not being available in the base game.

 

[Death Phenomeno]

I'd imagine this probably goes without saying, but we don't need stuff like, say, Pokémon Dream Radar mons (especially the Legendaries) messing with the existing Black 2 & White 2 in-game tier list, for example.

I did a playthrough with only the Therian formes on my channel a decade ago. It was… quite different to what I was expecting at the time. I remember the early game being pure hell; Thundurus in particular being extremely frail and Landorus having to deal with inaccurate moves for quite a while.

This finally changes once you reach Nimbasa. You need to take a detour and get U-Turn from the Subway, but after that, the game plays pretty much… normal. Hardest boss was Zinzolin, IIRC.

 

[pe5e]

I would love if in-game viability discussion gets more traction on Smogon again. Sadly, I was also one of those people that got into the topic a few years too late, so nowadays the topic is either done or work is very slow or non-existent. But while community tier lists need some kind of frame work of what a "standard" playthrough looks like, a lot of interesting discussion is sadly left out by that.

Here are some things that I always thought were interesting to talk about:

• Discussion about "outside of battle" abilities like Vital Spirit or Sticky Hold
• Giving attention to certain hold items and how they influence the performance of some Pokemon
• Taking hold items of wild Pokemon into account (and the ways to obtain them in a reasonable amount of time)
• Options that side facilities before the post game like the Trainer Hill give
• Taking a closer look at Pokemon obtained from in-game trades with NPCs
• Viability chances of trade evolution Pokemon depending on the time you get them
• Routes through the game and the investment and benefits of backtracking
• Runs with no dedicated HM user (aka all members need to participate in battles to some degree)
• Runs with a full team
• Runs with no overlapping types (for example no Swampert and Starmie on the same team)

People play the games in a lot of different ways and there is a lot of niche stuff to talk about. Trying to organize that is probably going to be a nightmare and only splits the few interested players apart. A sort of "anything goes" thread is probably a good idea as long as it doesn't end in chaos. If someone is interested in a topic they only need to reply.

 

[bdt2002]

Here are some things that I always thought were interesting to talk about:

• Discussion about "outside of battle" abilities like Vital Spirit or Sticky Hold

It's hard to think about this without mentioning how absolutely insane Pickup is in Ruby & Sapphire. Early-game Pickup strats with Zigzagoon were so unbelievably busted that Game Freak more or less nerfed this in Emerald and it was still unbelievably busted.

Something I think could be interesting to add to your lists would be Monotype Tier Lists as well- not in the Pokémon that are on the player's team, but rather in what Types are the best for what games, with and without trades being allowed. Poison in Kanto and Flying in Alola both get a boost with Bulbasaur and Rowlet respectively, for example, whereas in other regions you might consider trading a Pokémon of that type over to start with or consider holding off your Monotype run until the Type becomes available in single player.

also Flying-Types are freaking cracked in the Ultra games, earlier Flyinum Z + earlier Roost TM + expanded roster backed up by the best Pokémon in the game and you still get Rowlet on top of all of that means you absolutely dunk on this region

 

[pe5e]

It's hard to think about this without mentioning how absolutely insane Pickup is in Ruby & Sapphire. Early-game Pickup strats with Zigzagoon were so unbelievably busted that Game Freak more or less nerfed this in Emerald and it was still unbelievably busted.

I haven't really abused the Pickup ability in those games yet but I always thought it was not nearly as broken as some people think. Hoenn is pretty lenient with items, to the point that I rarely even use Full Heals due to all the available berries you can pick up. Money is also not really a problem even if you buy an expensive Game Corner TM after the fifth gym. And once you reach Lilycove City, money is barely even a concern anymore, so you can just buy whatever you want.
Which is why I somewhat unimpressed by Pickup. Most of the items you can get, you can simply buy no problem, which means you mostly just save a bit of money, which hardly is a concern. The only things I consider really nice to get are the vitamins and Rare Candies. Which is why it is probably a lot better in Ruby and Sapphire. A 10% chance for a Rare Candy, 5% chance for a Protein (which there is only a single one in the wild I believe?) and a 4% for a PP Up is a real reward.
But Emerald's Pickup table is a lot stricter and you likely only get one or at most two goodies that you can't easily buy (again I haven't done a test run of this). Another annoying problem with Pickup is that it prevents the user from carrying a normal item. And as the Silk Scarf is an item that you can get really early, and Linoone is the most common Pickup user, it is a real disadvantage because Linoone really appreciates a 10% boost to its Return as it falls off a bit in the later parts of the game. But I still have my Linoone run coming up, so maybe I see things different after that.

Something I think could be interesting to add to your lists would be Monotype Tier Lists as well- not in the Pokémon that are on the player's team, but rather in what Types are the best for what games, with and without trades being allowed. Poison in Kanto and Flying in Alola both get a boost with Bulbasaur and Rowlet respectively, for example, whereas in other regions you might consider trading a Pokémon of that type over to start with or consider holding off your Monotype run until the Type becomes available in single player.

That is an interesting topic. Water types are probably one of, if not the best typing for early gens because of the Surf HM. A move with 95 power with great coverage that a ton of Pokemon can learn and that can be taught an infinite amount with no draw back, around the middle of the game is really, really good. It makes nearly all Water types at least usable, even if they otherwise suck. It is arguably better than the Earthquake TM which comes much, much later. Unless they have terrible availability, it is basically impossible to be a bad in-game Pokemon if you are a Water Pokemon.
Poison types are also insanely buffed by the Sludge Bomb TM after the fifth gym in RSE. Poison mostly sucks as a type but if you get a 90 power STAB move with upside this early, then you really aren't that bad. It also helps that Hoenn is one of the friendliest regions for Poison types.

On the other hand we have Rock, Grass and Bug types in Hoenn. Game Freak were terrified of giving most, if not all Rock types acess to Rock Slide before the Battle Frontier, and otherwise the best options are the bad Rock Tomb, Rock Throw or Rollout. Grass has similar problems. Despite the type being great for the region, it is absolutely horrible until the Giga Drain TM. Grass attacks were still horribly weak in gen 3, so most Grass types have to use the terribly weak 20 base power Absorb or 10 base power Bullet Seed for an embarrassingly long time. Grovyle is the best example of this, who would be up there for the best starter if its best move for nearly 30 levels wasn't Pursuit or Strength instead of a good Grass STAB move.

 

[Samtendo09]

I haven't really abused the Pickup ability in those games yet but I always thought it was not nearly as broken as some people think. Hoenn is pretty lenient with items, to the point that I rarely even use Full Heals due to all the available berries you can pick up. Money is also not really a problem even if you buy an expensive Game Corner TM after the fifth gym. And once you reach Lilycove City, money is barely even a concern anymore, so you can just buy whatever you want.
Which is why I somewhat unimpressed by Pickup. Most of the items you can get, you can simply buy no problem, which means you mostly just save a bit of money, which hardly is a concern. The only things I consider really nice to get are the vitamins and Rare Candies. Which is why it is probably a lot better in Ruby and Sapphire. A 10% chance for a Rare Candy, 5% chance for a Protein (which there is only a single one in the wild I believe?) and a 4% for a PP Up is a real reward.
But Emerald's Pickup table is a lot stricter and you likely only get one or at most two goodies that you can't easily buy (again I haven't done a test run of this). Another annoying problem with Pickup is that it prevents the user from carrying a normal item. And as the Silk Scarf is an item that you can get really early, and Linoone is the most common Pickup user, it is a real disadvantage because Linoone really appreciates a 10% boost to its Return as it falls off a bit in the later parts of the game. But I still have my Linoone run coming up, so maybe I see things different after that.


That is an interesting topic. Water types are probably one of, if not the best typing for early gens because of the Surf TM. A move with 95 power with great coverage that a ton of Pokemon can learn and that can be taught an infinite amount with no draw back, around the middle of the game is really, really good. It makes nearly all Water types at least usable, even if they otherwise suck. It is arguably better than the Earthquake TM which comes much, much later. Unless they have terrible availability, it is basically impossible to be a bad in-game Pokemon if you are a Water Pokemon.
Poison types are also insanely buffed by the Sludge Bomb TM after the fifth gym in RSE. Poison mostly sucks as a type but if you get a 90 power STAB move with upside this early, then you really aren't that bad. It also helps that Hoenn is one of the friendliest regions for Poison types.

On the other hand we have Rock, Grass and Bug types in Hoenn. Game Freak were terrified of giving most, if not all Rock types acess to Rock Slide before the Battle Frontier, and otherwise the best options are the bad Rock Tomb, Rock Throw or Rollout. Grass has similar problems. Despite the type being great for the region, it is absolutely horrible until the Giga Drain TM. Grass attacks were still horribly weak in gen 3, so most Grass types have to use the terribly weak 20 base power Absorb or 10 base power Bullet Seed for an embarrassingly long time. Grovyle is the best example of this, who would be up there for the best starter if its best move for nearly 30 levels wasn't Pursuit or Strength instead of a good Grass STAB move.

You haven’t explained why Bug-type is horrid in Hoenn. Was it because the type share the same issues that plagued them in Gen 1 or 2?

I will not deny that early Pokémon balancing was very poor in hindsight, as even other monster-taming franchises have a relatively easier start when it comes to balancing iirc.

 

[pe5e]

You haven’t explained why Bug-type is horrid in Hoenn. Was it because the type share the same issues that plagued them in Gen 1 or 2?

I will not deny that early Pokémon balancing was very poor in hindsight, as even other monster-taming franchises have a relatively easier start when it comes to balancing iirc.

I had to get going when I wrote that, so I forgot that part.

Bug types are mostly terrible pre-gen 4 for in-game runs because there just aren't any good Bug moves to use for the most part.
Either the base power is just laughably low like Leech Life and Pin Missle, or its a signature move like Twin Needle or Megahorn.
Megahorn is especially sad because it comes so late in Heracross' movepool that it is barely even a Bug type. Just a Fighting type with random STAB on one move.

The only legit good Bug moves that you can actually use for more than 10 minutes before the game is over in gen 3 are Signal Beam and Tail Glow. Just a shame that they are exclusive to Volbeat. But it is probably the best real Bug type before gen 4 and honestly not even that bad for in-game runs. I had great fun using it.

The Bug type itself is totally fine, not amazing but also better than some other types. But if no Bug types with at least passable stats learn these few good Bug moves then it is kind of a lost cause. Pinsir is a perfect example. The least Bug-like Bug Pokemon that is more like a Fighting type but also isn't that. Bug was one of those types like Poison that was made intentionally bad in early gens. Just weird design decisions of the long ago.

 

[Samtendo09]

But it is probably the best real Bug type before gen 4 and honestly not even that bad for in-game runs. I had great fun using it.

Considering the competition at the time, Volbeat being the best true-Bug in Gen 3 says a lot. Too bad Illumise doesn’t have the same chance, and the duo’s average stats means they won’t age well in future generations.

Design that would be logical in lore wouldn’t make for good game design in retrospect.

 

[pe5e]

Considering the competition at the time, Volbeat being the best true-Bug in Gen 3 says a lot. Too bad Illumise doesn’t have the same chance, and the duo’s average stats means they won’t age well in future generations.

Design that would be logical in lore wouldn’t make for good game design in retrospect.

Volbeat is standing so near the cliff of viability too. It is barely fast and strong enough for the generation, has barely good enough coverage and moves, which become available at the perfect time, and actually has a real niche where a non-Bug isn't just better. Meanwhile Illumise loses a ton of those important things that Volbeat uses to just barely get by on being decently usuable, and gains absolutely nothing.
It becomes more and more clear to me that early Game Freak didn't concern themselves at all with how those Pokemon they designed actually played. It was entirely flavor driven. If it made sense from its design that a Pokemon learned a move, then it probably got it. But they did not care if that move was any good for that Pokemon. Pursuit Dodrio moment.

 

[Blite]

Oooh I love this

I generally always trade at least one Pokemon to myself when doing runs recently to make the team interesting.

Sometimes it's simply an egg/baby of something that comes too late

Sometimes I just want some specific type combination (Gliscor comes to mind, being unable to learn HM Fly, but then being unavailable in Alola)

I also really enjoyed the Level ~10 Salamence in USUM lol, even if it is otherwise painful to get (still, Beldum feels worse)


I think it would also be so interesting to theorize what Megas would be good in Alola if they were available before postgame

And hidden ability mons in some cases (Dream Radar as mentioned before, I think they (the HAs) all suck lol, but still gives you some new options, Gardevoir/Gallade esp.)

 

[Geta92]

One of the major problems I have with some of the current ingame tier lists and the conventional rules is that they usually ignore or at least strongly undervalue the viability of a lot of Pokemon for regular battles in order to keep up their level. I also have issues that they never consider overleveling, even if it’s convenient and easy to do so. Both of these things are also kind of related.

Something can perform superb in gym battles but is stuck using neutral low power moves, gets outsped and/or status’ed constantly and drains your items in the process everywhere else. Maybe it’s just me, but if you need to set up and heal often in regular battles, you are not high tier material, even if you clear gyms with non-item setup like a boss. If you can oneshot entire routes and as a result, overlevel easily, you should do that. Simply because these conditions make it efficient to do so. If your performance against trainers is so good that you can easily overlevel, that’s a huge plus that should not be ignored. Not doing so is actively nerfing yourself. The notion of wanting to compare viability at the same levels is so odd to me for ingame tiering because it is unrealistic and feels like a leftover of traditional PVP tiering.

A good example is Bulbasaur in FR/LG. It has good bulk and can set up Leech Seed and Sleep Powder so it can pretty much beat anyone by just stalling them out, but Grass and Normal coverage is really bad in Kanto for beating regular trainers. If I personally have to decide if I would rather stomp trainers and be neutral in boss fights or struggle on trainers and easily beat boss fights, I’d usually go for option 1, just because being good against trainers would usually mean I’m higher leveled for the gym fights anyways, removing the advantage the other route would have yielded anyways. Overleveling should only be disincentivized if it’s slow or inconvenient to accomplish due to bad type matchups against optional closeby trainers.

 

[pe5e]

[...]

That is a very interesting topic, that I also have a bit of a gripe with.

Generally, only the major battles (mostly gym leaders) get considered for determining how well a Pokemon does in a game. And while those battles clearly are important to look at, it is kind of weird to me that regular route trainers, or even other trainers in the gyms before the gym leader, don't get consider much, or at all. You encounter a lot more regular trainers that gym leaders in your playthrough, and the performance of the Pokemon in question against them is just as important if not slightly more important that a gym leader. Some Pokemon just happen to have a bad matchup against several gym leaders while being absolutely great route cleaners. That positive attribute shouldn't be overlooked so easily.

Setups for singular harder fights like gym leaders are kind of a hot topic already, because if a Pokemon can beat a tough trainer with a setup strategy, then I often see it more as a downside, rather then upside. In the sense, that the Pokemon needs some convoluted (and sometimes inconsistent) setup to beat the hard trainer, because it isn't strong enough to beat them normally. And setups are even less worth it for regular trainers. If the Pokemon needs multiple turns of setup to beat a regular route trainer, then that is a real downside that should be considered.

I haven't seen the topic of too much overleveling yet, but my take on the matter is that it really only should be seen as a negative aspect, if it required significant time and EXP investment that wouldn't have been required naturally. Only if you have to get out of your way somewhat to reach a certain power level because the Pokemon wouldn't have a good enough chance at victory otherwise. I think Grovyle against Wattson in RSE is a good example. While it does have a type advantage against his Electric Pokemon, Grovyle really needs to overlevel a bit to reach level 29 for Leaf Blade to make the fight reasonable because its moves before Leaf Blade are just too weak against Magneton and Manectric, which would require a lot of healing items for Grovyle otherwise. Grovyle certainly wouldn't reach level 29 naturally before that fight unless you are consciously going after a lot more trainers than you really need to. This should be seen as a small downside.

But on the other hand, you almost certainly outlevel the trainers you encoutner by a small amount anyway. That just happens naturally, even if you don't intend to do it. How much you do heavily depends on how many team members you have, the specific game, the level growth rates of you Pokemon and so on.

 

[Roldski32]

Route trainer are completely irrelevant to me because i'd argue more than half of the available pokemon in one game have no problem bulldozing through them, including some D-tiers. Using Kadabra in Platinum for example, it was horrible against boss fights overall from my experience, and Kazza isn't that great into bosses either. (even some of current C-tiers performed better than it). Its fine at wrecking routes, for sure, but do i value it when the likes of Gliscor, Gallade, Scyther, Gabite, Jolteon, Rotom, Luxray, Raichu and even Bibarel, can also do the same thing just fine? not much really

Don't even bother talking about route trainers in GSC. Why would i value wrecking Mahogany Grunts that have L17 mons, when everyone at that point are near L25s or near L30s, even Bayleef had almost no problem dealing with those with Headbutt, even some E-tiers in that game should have almost no problem unless its a Wobbuffet or something.

The only time they mattered is if someone is horrible against them or have significant issue. Pichu in Platinum is a great example, it was so horrendously bad against Route trainer, because it gets one-shotted by a Rock Throw Bonsly, and 2HKOed by Astonish Misdreavus or even a L17 Starly Quick Attack from the bridge despite Pichu being 4-5 levels above it. Nasty Plot Raichu is not worth it.

Abomasnow in Platinum is an example of someone having significant issue against Route Trainer. This mon is more of a E Tier material, and i think people from the second DPP Tier List got blinded by this supposedly great movepool consisting of high BP STAB moves. Yes, Wood Hammer and Blizzard are very strong, but they both have major downside; the former has recoil and the latter only have 5 PP. Man, i really hated that i have to constantly go back to Pokecenter after every single fight because its either Abomasnow is low on health due to Wood Hammer recoil or it ran out of Blizzard PP, and its really annoying in an otherwise long section of that game such as Mt. Coronet and Victory Road. It was so bad I decided to grind Snover 8 Levels against wild mons at Iron Island with Riley. It look something that may got reject from ingame tier list, but do you like having to rely a lot on 5 PP move against Route trainer? because i don't

 

[pe5e]

[...]

I think it's mostly about lower tier Pokemon. Ideally, Pokemon should be good against gym leaders and normal route trainers. Otherwise they are lower on the tier list by default.
But then there are some Pokemon that are perfectly fine to use for most of the game and can even help out in gyms, just not against the gym leader because they are just too weak, frail, lack the moves, whatever. And as tier lists really are just a representation of how much and how good a Pokemon can help you in a playthrough, it feels unfair to me to exclude route trainers from the evaluation because they are such a big part of the game. If we don't include their performance against normal route trainers, then those Pokemon get clumped together with Pokemon that are completely garbage and pretty much unusable. And that just doesn't feel fair. How much their route trainer performance is worth is the interesting part, but I think it should at least be enough to raise a single tier above the unusable trash. Stuff like Volbeat and Spinda really shouldn't be in the absolute lowest tier next to stuff like the Regis, Bagon or Wynaut in RSE. They have problems but they aren't unusably bad.

Also another interesting finding I came across the more I played is, that one of the most important, if not the most important, thing about how viable a Pokemon is, is if it actually gets good moves.
It can have great potential, good typing and decent stats but if it gets no moves, then it is still bad. See Lombre and Nuzleaf for that sort of Pokemon. On the other hand, a Pokemon can have a bad typing, bad or mediocre stats and tough evolution levels but still be pretty usable as long as it gets great moves. Poison and Water types get such a big boost from the Sludge Bomb TM and Surf HM that its pretty hard to find Pokemon of those types that just like not usable. Even Goldeen or Grimer, which are horrible due to a number of reasons, can at least spam strong STAB moves. In earlier gens, that is a lot better than some other trash. Meanwhile stuff like Mawile and Anorith are just beyond saving because they just get no good moves at all, even if you waste your good TMs on them.

 

[Eeveeto]

Felt like doing a Random Theorymoning for Nuzlocke runs:

What if Sneasel participated in a Nuzlocke run of Pokemon Crystal but was found at Route 29 (first route of the game)?

Weavile is a very useful Pokemon in Nuzlocke runs but not for the reason you would think. Fast and strong, that is not what it uses to survive and kill. After all, Weavile is not capable of OHKOing foes that are not weak to its STABs and due to being frail, has a serious risk to die if the opponent surives a hit. Instead, what Weavile does is abuse the Pressure ability with Substitute + Protect. When available, it uses Leftovers as an item, when not, a Sitrus Berry. Even with Sitrus Berry, the Speed Weavile has ensures that it can 1vs1 almost any opponent by outstalling it. The AI will sometimes choke and not attack Weavile, which can be used to hit it directly (and Weavile has a lot of PPs on its offensive moves), but the main point of the strategy is to wait until the opponent loses all PPs of some Move that prevents some Weavile's teammate to sweep with a Boosting move. When that happens, you can send the booster for free and just sweep the opposition.
As a result, Weavile becomes one of the best late game (because that's the part of the game in which Ice types tend to be found) Pokemon.

However, Weavile does not exist in Gen 3 and Gen 2. This means that you must stick with its unevolved form, which still appears pretty late but is much worse. Pathetic bulk, Special STABs and a movepool that depends almost entirely on TMs, many of which will be spent by the time you actually find Sneasel. If Nuzlocke Tiers were done, Sneasel would be F in both GSC and Leaf Green.
In Leaf Green Sneasel is found in post-game and only can do something vs rematch Agatha and Blue's Alakazam.
In GS Sneasel is found in Mt. Silver. If you bother to train it at that point, it can wall Red's Espeon I guess, but still not reliable due to Swift.
In Crystal its a little better, found in Ice Road. However, by that time you will have most of your team formed and even if some team member dies, Sneasel is not something you will be using, since your TMs will be spent by the time you might use it. And Sneasel needs TMs.

But what, if, like Dunsparce, Sneasel was a fully evolved Mon available at the beginning of the game? Its a weasel and weasels can be found pretty much everywhere (hard to see IRL though, they are small and fast). Lets analyze Sneasel performance taking into account that due to Crystal being an official game (and as a result, pretty easy) Sneasel will Start every Gym battle at the level of Gym Leader's ace. Of course, healing with items is forbidden too.

Vs Faulkner: Level cap here is 9, just in time for Sneasel to learn Quick Attack. Unfortunately is not enough to beat Pidgeotto, who will outdamage Sneasel with STAB Quick Attack. It will beat the Pidgey, but that's it, you will need to have a Geodude to beat the big bird. D Tier performance.
Vs Bugsy: Level cap is 16, 1 less level than needed to get Screech. However, by easily beating Metapod and Kakuna, Sneasel can in theory level-up, learning Screech. Unfortunately, it will take some time to beat the cocoons with Swift (TM can be found in Union Cave), so Sneasel won,t have enough health to use Screech on Scyther. You will still need to have a Rock Mon here or a Quilava. D Tier performance.
Vs Whitney: Level cap here is 20. This doesn,t change anything for the level-up movepool, which is terrible. However, TMs start being a thing from this point and Sneasel learns both Headbutt and Ice Punch, both of them are endless TMs. With Headbutt Sneasel easily beats Clefairy, with a good chance to ending the match-up undamages due to flinches. After that, Sneasel is obviously unable to safely beat Miltank, but can at least Screech it so that a teammate has it easier to fight against the cow. C Tier performance.
Vs Morty: Here is where Sneasel shines in early game, level cap is 25. Sneasel is faster than all the Ghosts in the Gym and can use Dig or STAB Faint Attack. Vs Morty, give Sneasel a Mint Berry and he will OHKO the Gastly and likely the Haunters too. Gengar will live a hit, but Sneasel is faster than it and will live a couple of Shadow Balls. The only way Sneasel can lose this is being unlucky with Dig rolls vs Haunter, being slept 2 times by Haunter and Gengar and being unlucky with Sleep turns. S Tier performance, only Normal Mons can be better than Sneasel at this Gym.
Vs Chuck: Fight Gym, don,t even bother, you will lose your Sneasel. F Tier performance.
Vs Jasmine: OHKOs both Magnemites, but can,t do anything to Steelix, even with Surf. C Tier performance, Magnemites are higher threats than Kakuna/Metapod and Pidgey, therefore higher than D.
Vs Pryce: Level cap is 31. At this point of the game, Sneasel can afford using the Return TM, it likely has enough happiness for it. This means, Sneasel can 2HKO Seel without taking almost no damage. Piloswine can be fought with Return too, but will take a while to beat. Surf and Dynamic Punch are other options vs the pig, and Sneasel can actually afford to miss some Dpunches in this battle, since Piloswine has Icy Wind, Blizzard and a weak Fury Attack as offensive moves. The match-up is therefore favorable to Sneasel. The real problem is Dewgong, which is the bulkiest Mon, has Headbutt (combined with Icy Wind) and Rest. Only DynamicPunch can hope to beat Dewgong, but its unreliable. Therefore, B Tier performance, Sneasel can beat 2 Mons, the ace among them, but can,t reliably sweep.
Vs Claire: You have enough money at this point to afford buying Ice Beam for Sneasel. This, combined with PRZCure Berry allows to beat 2 or with some luck, even the 3 of them. Kingdra is obviously a no go, Sneasel can neither damage nor live STAB hits from it. C Tier performance.
Vs Silver at Victory Road: You don,t have level cap here, since Claire is stronger than Silver. Therefore, you are overleveled. Optimal moveset for the rest of the game is Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Return and Dig. With this moveset + several level advantage, Sneasel can beat every Silver Mon except the starter (small chance to beat Meganium), fully walling Kadabra in the process. A Tier performance.
Vs Will: Level cap is 42. Sneasel will probably kill 4 Mons, however won,t sweep due to tactics such as Confuse Ray, Reflect or Body Slam. Still a very good A Tier performance, notably walling Jynx, which is the most dangerous Mon.
Vs Koga: You can,t fight Ariados, since it could live 2 hits, use Spider Web and Baton Pass to either Muk or Forretress, both of which beat Sneasel. Venomoth is beatable and Crobat is not an entirely negative match-up. D Tier performance, not good.
Vs Bruno: E Tier performance. Only reason is not F, is Onix being pathetically weak (even can,t 2HKO reliably with Rock Slide) and Hitmontop not having Fight moves. You probably can,t beat both at the same time.
Vs Karen: Don,t bother battling Umbreon or Houndoom. Sneasel easily beats Murkrow and Gengar, having a shot vs Vileplume. C Tier perfomance.
Vs Lance: Sneasel's Special Attack is very bad, so most of the time it will just beat a Dragonite, but not even the ace one. E Tier performance, very pathetic vs a dragon specialist.

Kanto Gym Leaders not named Blue: Sneasel can do well (but not a full sweep) vs Surge, fully beats Sabrina, Erica and Janine, contribute vs Misty, probably kill Blaine's Magcargo and Brock's Onix too. B Tier performance, but doesn,t mean too much, all these leaders are a joke.
Blue: Level Cap is 58. Will beat Pidgeot, Exeggutor and Alakazam. If somehow undamaged, could try to face Gyarados, but very risky. C Tier performance.
Red: Last battle of the game, so you can remove Return in this one and use the Rain Dance tech to try beating Venusaur (who will be using Sunny Day + Solar Beam, but also has Giga Drain). Pikachu is beaten by Dig, Espeon by Shadow Ball, the other 3 Mons are full roadblocks.


Overall, early availability would benefit Sneasel a lot in terms of EVs and the ability to easily dispatch Morty and contribute vs every Gym leader except for Chuck. With a lot of EVs and being on par with the rest of the team with some TMs spent on it, Sneasel can proceed to murder Silver and Will, while doing something vs Karen, Blue and Red. Overall, I think that early game Sneasel in Nuzlockes would go from F rank up to D or maybe C. The ability of walling the multiple Psychic and Ghost types encountered around the game gives Sneasel a useful niche that only the current late availability negates.
Hopefully you had fun reading this, I was just bored this eeveening, so decided to theorymon a little.

 

[Blite]

Currently doing a run of US with traded Litten + Tyrunt + Jangmo-o, and own Rowlet / Porygon Z / Wishiwashi (the Porygon Z is also "traded" but as an egg so no XP boost). A few others I considered but boxed (and will likely box one of the dragon types, but I don't know if I'll find anything else I like/want to use)

Tyrunt probably doesn't make much of a difference if you trade it or obtain it normally in retrospect

But Porygon Z and Jangmo-o would maybe be interesting to know about as I go through, hopefully I'll remember to share my thoughts. Right now I like Tyrunt more than Jangmo-o honestly, so it's not looking too good lol. Porygon on the other hand is unsurprisingly very strong, but no special STAB (and here I was thinking Return was special for some reason lol).

I will say going into every battle with either Porygon/Wishiwashi lead and waiting for the ability (I got Download, I felt like Adaptability kind of defeats the point of having a wide movepool later on) can be a little annoying?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

One of the major problems I have with some of the current ingame tier lists and the conventional rules is that they usually ignore or at least strongly undervalue the viability of a lot of Pokemon for regular battles in order to keep up their level. I also have issues that they never consider overleveling, even if it’s convenient and easy to do so. Both of these things are also kind of related.

Simple, if standards aren't set, things become the Wild West. At that point, just run a starter and maybe something for HMs, speedrun style.

Since that's not the case, mons are judged by those standards.

I could have an Electrode solo all the water routes in RBY for it to have a comfortable level advantage against Blaine. I could also just use a Water-type and not need to overlevel and potentially cripple the rest of my team. Which one is more likely to be considered a good matchup?

Generally, only the major battles (mostly gym leaders) get considered for determining how well a Pokemon does in a game. And while those battles clearly are important to look at, it is kind of weird to me that regular route trainers, or even other trainers in the gyms before the gym leader, don't get consider much, or at all. You encounter a lot more regular trainers that gym leaders in your playthrough, and the performance of the Pokemon in question against them is just as important if not slightly more important that a gym leader. Some Pokemon just happen to have a bad matchup against several gym leaders while being absolutely great route cleaners. That positive attribute shouldn't be overlooked so easily.

Regular trainers are taken into consideration, but route-clearing is expected to be the bare minimum. If a mon sucks at this, regardless of it being good on major battles, it'll likely get tanked in the rankings.

GSC Gastly is a great example of what I mean.

Abomasnow in Platinum is an example of someone having significant issue against Route Trainer. This mon is more of a E Tier material, and i think people from the second DPP Tier List got blinded by this supposedly great movepool consisting of high BP STAB moves. Yes, Wood Hammer and Blizzard are very strong, but they both have major downside; the former has recoil and the latter only have 5 PP. Man, i really hated that i have to constantly go back to Pokecenter after every single fight because its either Abomasnow is low on health due to Wood Hammer recoil or it ran out of Blizzard PP, and its really annoying in an otherwise long section of that game such as Mt. Coronet and Victory Road. It was so bad I decided to grind Snover 8 Levels against wild mons at Iron Island with Riley. It look something that may got reject from ingame tier list, but do you like having to rely a lot on 5 PP move against Route trainer? because i don't

If I'm being 100% honest... Skill Issue.

Having Blizzard on Abomasnow is a no-brainer, but that's not a button to be clicked on random mooks. You're probably better off using a Heart Scale for Ice Punch or something on one of the other 3 slots. That's the kind of move built for route clearing.

Abomasnow is pretty abysmal though, so you're not exactly wrong.

 

[pe5e]

Simple, if standards aren't set, things become the Wild West. At that point, just run a starter and maybe something for HMs, speedrun style.

Since that's not the case, mons are judged by those standards.

I could have an Electrode solo all the water routes in RBY for it to have a comfortable level advantage against Blaine. I could also just use a Water-type and not need to overlevel and potentially cripple the rest of my team. Which one is more likely to be considered a good matchup?

I 100% see what you mean. Without a standardized playthrough in mind, ranking Pokemon is a crapshoot because the games can be played in a lot ways. That being said, I don't think we are talking about overleveling a Beedrill for 20 levels and then claiming that it beats every gym leader => Beedrill for S-rank!
It's more like Pokemon getting only slightly overleveled, say between 5 or 10 levels, to the next gym leader ace Pokemon. That can happen pretty naturally, if the previous route just happens to be great for said Pokemon. Like in your Electrode example. As long as you don't go super out off your way and follow the general way to the next gym, getting there slightly overleveled feels natural and worth considering.
Mostly the overleveling isn't also done to stomp the next gym leader. From my experience its mostly because an important move, its next evolution or just a few more stats are needed to barely get there against the gym leader. It is absolutely a disadvantage of said Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but I think its better to do this than to just assume the Pokemon just has a bad time against that gym leader in general, when the solution is only like 7 levels away. If slight overleveling is required, then it should absolutely be mentioned, though.

Regular trainers are taken into consideration, but route-clearing is expected to be the bare minimum. If a mon sucks at this, regardless of it being good on major battles, it'll likely get tanked in the rankings.

GSC Gastly is a great example of what I mean.

See, that wasn't my experience with the RSE tier list. Route clearing isn't mentioned at all in write-ups for example. Maybe that list in general needs a bit of a rework but a ton of mediocre but perfectly fine Pokemon are down in the dumpster with unusable trash, while Pokemon like Skarmory and Tropius, that suck against route trainers, are in C-rank. Mostly it concerns defensive Pokemon. These are maybe good enough to eventually win against some gym leaders, after you stalled through them for a ton of turns. But that sort of strategy is just horrible against route trainers. And there are a lot of purely defensive Pokemon in each generation that fall into that category. Okay against gym leaders, bad against route trainers because they take too long.
I really am only invested in this because I want to save some medicore Pokemon from F-rank into like D-rank. Because currently their representation gives the impression that they are just unusable, but they are not. Then again, usually only the top ranks, that are all great against route trainers, even get write-ups for the site articles, so maybe the topic just isn't worth the hassle.