DP Heracross .

[ΩDonut]

Having used Heracross extensively, I just want to update the Choice set to include a Toxicross option that I've found to be pretty effective (added paragraph in bold).

EDIT: I am taking Phuquoph's advice and splitting the Choice set into a Band set and a Scarf set. More revisions to come later.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heracross

[SET]
Name: Bug of Choice (Band)
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Stone Edge
Move 4: Pursuit / Night Slash / Sleep Talk
Item : Choice Band
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Nature: Adamant

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>"Choice" is in reference to the items and the popularity of this Heracross set. With a Choice Band boost Heracross is incredibly powerful and few Pokémon can survive hits from his 120 base power dual STAB moves, Megahorn and Close Combat. Flying-types ruin the fun, but that's where Stone Edge comes in to at least 2HKO the majority of Heracross' airborne foes.</p>

<p>Pursuit works great on the brawling bug, as it punishes fleeing opponents and is particularly useful against slower Psychic-types who switch out, fearing a Megahorn. Night Slash allows Heracross to 2HKO Dusknoir in case it stays in, predicting a Pursuit. Sleep Talk is also a good option in the last slot if you are in need of a sleep absorber. Heracross can switch in with relative safety against many sleep inducers, such as Milotic, Gengar, Breloom, and Tangrowth. Bear in mind that Sleep Talk will fail after the first use due to the restrictions of Choice items, so you will have to switch out.</p>

<p>In a big turnaround from the previous generation, not even Skarmory can risk switching into Choice Band Heracross as Close Combat will 2HKO the steel bird. Sounds scary, doesn't it? We haven't even gotten to Guts yet. If 574 Attack wasn't enough, Heracross can gain a further boost by switching into a status move. With Choice Band and Guts activated, Heracross will essentially be operating with over a "free" Swords Dance every time he unleashes his attacks.</p>

-- Damage Calculations of the original writeup snipped, but will still be in the final --

[SET]
Name: Bug of Choice (Scarf)
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Stone Edge
Move 4: Toxic / Sleep Talk / Pursuit / Night Slash
Item : Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although he lacks the monstrous power provided by Choice Band, Choice Scarf Heracross is still a potent threat. He outspeeds almost everything—aside from other Choice Scarf users and Deoxys-S, of course—with the Scarf attached and still boasts an Attack of 383.</p>

<p>Toxic may seem out of place on the heavy-hitting Heracross, but the Choice Scarf variant doesn't have the firepower to take on its more troublesome counters, such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Dusknoir. But Heracross can Toxic these (as well as bulky Water-types) on the switch-in, making life more difficult for them. For instance, Gliscor normally Roosts off damage faster than Heracross can deal it, but once Gliscor is poisoned, it has to contend with Roosting off the increasing poison damage as well as Heracross's attacks (most likely Stone Edge), making it possible for Heracross to go toe-to-toe with Gliscor and win. What's more, these same Pokemon tend to hinder sweeps from the likes of Garchomp and Lucario. These two will welcome the poison support.</p>

<p>Toxic is preferred over Pursuit in this case because without the Attack boost of the Choice Band, Pursuit's damage can be disappointing.</p>

 

[MetaNite]

But wouldn't Heracross just have to switch out and come back in order to attack Gliscor while its roosting because of the choice item? He can't switch from Toxic to an attack. Doesn't seem worth it.

The Evs aren't maxed because they don't need to be. I don't think there's much more it'll outspeed by maxing it compared to let's say 232 speed Evs.

 

[Gaborik]

But wouldn't Heracross just have to switch out and come back in order to attack Gliscor while its roosting because of the choice item? He can't switch from Toxic to an attack. Doesn't seem worth it.

We are well aware of that aspect of a "Choice" item. His goal isn't to kill the gliscor on the first swap in obviously, but as soon as you have it inflicted with Toxic and find and opening for Heracross to come back in then Gliscor becomes a ticking bomb that can't beat the poison as Heracross repeatedly pummels him.

244 speed versus 269 speed.

269 - 252 Heracross, Suicune, Toxicroak, Ledian (85)
265 - +nature/252 Honchkrow (71)
264 - One DD hits 396 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 130s)
262 - +nature/252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)
261 - 252 Gyarados (81)
259 - 252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
253 - 252 Heatran (77)
246 - no-speed Mismagius (105)
244 - One DD hits 366 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 115s, and 252 base 130s)

Does running 269 do much for him? The ones that Heracross doesn't care to outspeed because they are unrealistic speed spreads or won't swap in anyway: Mismagius (max usually), Heatran (won't swap in, and it is a dying fad to try and run Jolly nature and speed EV's to get over 270 speed as the new speed total to aim for seems to be 280+ with the Lucarios/Mamoswine/Heatrans able to run 270+), Dragonite is generally Jolly + Speed and won't swap in, Blaziken/Gardevoir/Medicham/Togekiss/Mamoswine won't swap in. Mesprit doesn't run that much speed on it's support set which is probably the most common, Honchkrow won't swap in, Suicune doesn't use speed, Ledian...., and Toxicroak could swap in with defense and HP to act as a Heracross counter actually, but that isn't realistic.

It just feels like none of that list is going to swap in and be able threaten Heracross anyway. Of course, if you do run the full speed none of those pokemon surfing the 244/245/246/however far people cheat speed EV's these days become a problem (the Jolly Tar speed line). Of course, some Gliscor can run 76+ Speed on the defensive walling and hover around this line so maybe it would be in Heracross' best interest to just run full speed so he doesn't have to worry about Gliscor's in that general area.
EDIT: With the idea of Toxic, you probably would want full speed just to guarentee you run faster than all defensive gliscors to stay ahead of them and stop them from roosting faster than you can Stone Edge (which, to say the obvious in case someone misses the point, turns Stone Edge into a resisted attack).

I probably overlooked some pokemon that fall in that general speed area that Heracross might benefit from for 252, but I was just starting it out with some numbers listed off the Smogon Speed Tiers list. The extra bulk and ability to swap into more Earthquakes/attacks overall seems a little more alluring to me, even if 104 HP won't always be helpful. The extra 104 Speed doesn't seem like it would come into play as much, but I can see the option for either spread.

 

[darkie]

I used Toxic on Heracross. I found it worked well not to sweep with Heracross at the end, but instead to weaken Gliscor to allow for Garchomp or Lucario to sweep.

 

[MetaNite]

I used Toxic on Heracross. I found it worked well not to sweep with Heracross at the end, but instead to weaken Gliscor to allow for Garchomp or Lucario to sweep.

That's what I think would work the best.

Why stop at Gliscor? He can also Toxic bulky waters too, and let their counters take of them easier. This may not be as good as with Gliscor but I'm just throwing out other uses it could have.

 

[ΩDonut]

I used Toxic on Heracross. I found it worked well not to sweep with Heracross at the end, but instead to weaken Gliscor to allow for Garchomp or Lucario to sweep.

Why stop at Gliscor? He can also Toxic bulky waters too, and let their counters take of them easier. This may not be as good as with Gliscor but I'm just throwing out other uses it could have.

Not to mention Dusknoir. Yeah, I'll put a mention of all this in there.

As for 269 speed vs. 244 speed - I should mention that I use a mono-bug team as my standard team. (It's not as bad as it sounds, it got all the way up to the top 10 on the Shoddy ladder during spring break and I intend to do so again this month.) So I don't have any way of countering Gyarados per se, but I do have a Scarfed Heracross that can come in on a +1 DD non-Speed+ Gyarados and bludgeon it with Stone Edge. Among other contingency plans.

For a Scarfed Heracross to have enough speed to out run a +1 DD Gyarados, it has so much speed already that you might as well run 252 Atk / 252 Spd.

...

Okay, while typing all this I just noticed that the current analysis already mentions running max Attack / Speed on the Choice Scarf set. Never mind, then!

 

[Articanus]

Really, wouldn't Facade be a better way to try to deal with Gliscor? I realize not every team runs status, but most teams that run Gliscor are slightly defensive natured, as Heracross is usually ruined by prediction with common resists that should be on most offensive teams.

 

[BlueCookies]

<p>Although he lacks the monstrous power provided by Choice Band, Choice Scarf Heracross is still a potent threat. He outspeeds almost everything—aside from other Choice Scarf users and Deoxys-s, of course—with the Scarf attached and still boasts an Attack of 383.</p>

Deoxys also outspeeds scarfcross.

I assume the moves in the slashes are in order of preference, so I would move Toxic behind Pursuit, as I think it is more useful on Heracross than Sleep Talk and Night Slash.

 

[ΩDonut]

Really, wouldn't Facade be a better way to try to deal with Gliscor? I realize not every team runs status, but most teams that run Gliscor are slightly defensive natured, as Heracross is usually ruined by prediction with common resists that should be on most offensive teams.

The Choice Band version could take on Gliscor with Facade + status, sure. But the Choice Scarf variant only 3HKOs, though, so Gliscor could Roost off the damage until whatever burn or poison Heracross has finishes the job.

Plus, you have to maneuver Heracross into a position where it gets statused before it can do anything about Gliscor. And that's assuming your opponent has any status moves in the first place! No, Toxic is much more effective and simple to use - just predict the Gliscor switch and all of a sudden it's easier for Heracross and other sweepers like Lucario and Garchomp to take it out. Facade can't provide that team support.

EDIT:

Deoxys also outspeeds scarfcross.

I assume the moves in the slashes are in order of preference, so I would move Toxic behind Pursuit, as I think it is more useful on Heracross than Sleep Talk and Night Slash.

This minor change is done. I'll put in any major changes in a few hours.

 

[Fishin]

I'd stick the paragraph about Toxic after the paragraph about Skarmory and Close Combat; best to explain the core moves first, and then go on to describe the merits of the options in the last slot.

but it's the only way Heracross can make life more difficult for Gliscor switch-ins

this is pretty nitpicky so feel free to ignore it if you want, but LO HP Ice also does cause Gliscor trouble. Kind of a gimmick but I don't like using absolutes without including all exceptions first, so "(besides gimmicky HP Ice sets)" could be put in after way.

Aside from that, looks good.

 

[Phuquoph]

I'm not adding Toxic to the Choice Band set, because the other attacks are significantly more useful. However, Choice Scarf should probably have its own set so it can be added there. As you pointed out, you lose a bit of power so Pursuit isn't quite as useful. Mention that Toxic is also good for catching Hippowdon, since he stalls the Scarf set pretty well. Same goes for Dusknoir.

[SET]
name: Bug of Choice (Scarf)
move 1: Megahorn
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Pursuit / Toxic / Night Slash / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 Atk / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant
ability: Guts

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although he lacks the monstrous power provided by Choice Band, Choice Scarf Heracross is still a potent threat. He outspeeds almost everything—aside from other Choice Scarf users and Deoxys-S, of course—with the Scarf attached and still boasts an Attack of 383.</p>

<p>Toxic may seem out of place on the heavy-hitting Heracross, but it's the only way Heracross can make life more difficult for Gliscor switch-ins. Normally, Gliscor Roosts off damage faster than Heracross can deal it, but once Gliscor is poisoned, it has to contend with Roosting off the increasing poison damage as well as Heracross's attacks (most likely Stone Edge), making it possible for Heracross to go toe-to-toe with Gliscor and win. If you use Choice Scarf Heracross, you might find Toxic preferable to the damage Pursuit deals, which can be disappointing without the Attack boost of the Choice Band.</p>

That's the line from the CB set and your description of the advantages of Toxic. Work from that.

 

[ΩDonut]

Changes:

- Split Choice set into a Band set and a Scarf set
- Added mention of Toxic support fellow sweepers Garchomp and Lucario

Possible future changes:

- Facade on the Band set, since Articanus mentioned it
- Damage calcs for the Scarf set

 

[Blue Kirby]

This post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

Delete, this is already on the site.