Aasgier said:
From my experience as well as in theory, Smash Carracosta can't set up easily and if it runs a Life Orb it loses to anything that runs Substitute.
Why are you setting up against a Substitute user? You can't justify the merits of using a Pokemon when you're playing badly with it.
Aasgier said:
If it sets up anyway, on for example, Scolipede or Swellow, it takes significant damage in the process from two Facades (one on the switch in and one on the Smash, and Swellow then finishes Carra off with Quick Attack)
Why are you switching a Shell Smash Carracosta into a Swellow, knowing full and well that it can take you out? Bring it in on the revenge or on a double switch. Once again, playing poorly with Carracosta is not going to yield good results.
Aasgier said:
meaning it fails as a Normal-Flying resist
Yes, it does. In the same way that Jynx fails as a Psychic resist and Swellow fails as a Bug resist. I know that these are sort of extreme examples, but it still very much applies here. You don't use Pokemon dedicated to sweeping the opposing team for the purpose of taking hits.
That's what walls and tanks are there for. So your argument that "you still need something like Metang" is entirely true, but you seem to think that makes Carracosta bad. Back to Jynx, you aren't calling it bad for its inability to tank hits from opposing Jynx and Gardevoir. Think about how that applies to this.
As for how it stacks Ground weaknesses, that's not really a top concern when teambuilding. What runs Ground-type moves? Sawk, Piloswine, Golem, Golurk, etc. All things that can be beaten by Misdreavus. There you go. There's your Ground resist, if you're really /that/ concerned about it.
Aasgier said:
- Wouldn't Gurdurr or Samurott be just as good in the same spot?
Tell me why this question makes any sense, when Gurdurr is nothing like Carracosta, and Samurott still struggles to take out very similar things that Carracosta does, only without the boost in Speed that costa gets.
Aasgier said:
- How do you deal with Normal/Flyers since SmashCosta fails to do effectively?
However you would on any other team? I already addressed why you shouldn't use Carracosta as a Normal/Flying resist.
Aasgier said:
- What do you use as a Stealth Rock setter alongside Carracosta, since most SR setters are weak to Grass/Fighting/Ground as well?
Whatever you want. If the compounded weaknesses turn you off, use Miltank, use Metang, use Golurk. Yeah, all of them share a weakness with Carracosta. But a. it's only one weakness, and b. if you can't manage to cover one weakness shared among two Pokemon on one team, you're doing it wrong.
scorpdestroyer said:
It can't set up on many of the threats that have become popular. Serperior and Gurdurr, for example, can beat it one on one and the popularity of these means that there are few setup opportunities.
Gurdurr: #31 in NU | Usage: 5.74451%
Serperior: #44 in NU | Usage: 4.99018%
meanwhile, Pokemon it _can_ set up on:
Scolipede: #9 in NU | Usage: 9.36738%
Kangaskhan: #20 in NU | Usage: 7.63129%
Swellow: #21 in NU | Usage: 7.32102%
Garbodor: #37 in NU | Usage: 5.46099%
Tauros: #47 in NU | Usage: 4.54557%
Regirock: #59 in NU | Usage: 3.62647%
these are just some examples of Pokemon that Carracosta can Smash against. There are still PLENTY of other Pokemon that it can Smash against in the right circumstances, but these are Pokemon where almost every time, Carracosta can set up. There are plenty of Pokemon that are used significantly more that it does not struggle to beat/set up on, and even some Pokemon that have dropped in usage that it can set up on.
scorpdestroyer said:
Birds like Swellow can U-Turn out as it comes in as well.
Come in on a revenge.
scorpdestroyer said:
Its low stats in special defense and speed leave it extremely vulnerable to revenge killing, since most scarfers outrun it and are specially-oriented this meta.
Why are you setting up on special attackers? Why are you not using Aqua Jet against obvious scarfers?
scorpdestroyer said:
Besides, it is worn down fairly easily due to Life Orb recoil and the defense drops, meaning that not only do you get revenge killed much more easily, you also need other teammates to fill up its defensive roles like Aasgier mentioned.
I already touched on why the defensive Pokemon argument was illogical. You don't use a sweeper to take hits. As for Life Orb recoil, if you find it to be THAT much of a problem,
use another item. I've been running Liechicosta (thanks wiitle) and have found I prefer it to Life Orb.
scorpdestroyer said:
Near-perfect coverage means that nothing much bar the physical regen walls and Seismitoad wall it after a boost or two.
You can even run Ice Beam or Hidden Power Grass to muscle past Tangela and Seismitoad, respectively. I still prefer the classic set more, but mixed or even fully special sets are still plenty viable.
Punchsroom said:
Probably the main issue I have with Carracosta is how its speed tier is enough to outspeed notable threats after a boost, but loses so much bulk to do so.
Of course you are losing bulk. You are using a set up move that drops your defenses. Bulk isn't even a factor outside of setting up. Other sweepers have their own ways of setting up: Serperior boosts its Special Defense and sets up on defensive Pokemon, Jynx puts opposing Pokemon to sleep, etc. Carracosta uses its fantastic bulk that works to its advantage, even when uninvested. I've already said it twice, but I'll throw it out there again since you all seem to think that it's so important. I'll even bold it.
Shell Smash Carracosta is NOT a defensive Pokemon and should not be used as though it is. You aren't going to switch your Jynx into a predicted Psyshock because it is a sweeper, and it cannot take that hit. Carracosta works best coming in on a revenge kill and setting up against Pokemon that can't break it. It has enough bulk to set up, but nothing more. Don't try to use Shell Smash Carracosta as a bulky pivot, because that is not the role it plays.
Punchshroom said:
Even the likes of other +2 speed threats in Klang, Torterra or Gorebyss has some luxury with not running absolute max speed, allowing themselves some breathing room via HP investment.
I'm not even touching Klang on this one because they are completely different Pokemon. Klang completely relies on its bulk and nothing more. Carracosta is FAR more offensive and can sweep after one turn. Klang cannot.
Torterra and Gorebyss are also very different. They set up on entirely different things. So if you're comparing setting up Torterra and Carracosta, sure you can use more HP investment on Torterra, but it doesn't resist much of anything. Carracosta plays so well because you can set up on a lot of different Pokemon due to its resistances. If you're not using Carracosta to its potential, you might as well stop posting about it. Right now, it sounds like you're setting it up against a Sawk and expecting good results.
Punchshroom said:
If Costa Smashes while the opponent Subs, Costa's weakened defenses would be left completely exposed. LO Carracosta loses almost outright in this scenario, though White Herb Costa may still be able to beat the threat.
Once again, why are you setting up Carracosta against a Sub user? More importantly, really, is that not much in NU even uses Sub anyways.
Punchshroom said:
If the Swellow user risks getting swept by a healthy Costa, the better move would be to sac Swellow to do as much damage to Costa as possible, though this should only be done if Carra has switched into Swellow prior, so staying in to hammer away at Costa would leave it at ~30+% before the Smash, and even less if Quick Attack and LO are factored in after the Smash. If Costa decides not to Smash, yes Swellow is dead, but so is Costa right after.
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs 0 HP/0 Def Swellow: 86.59% - 102.3% (18.75% chance to OHKO)
Come in on the revenge, Smash, Aqua Jet. you're going to be around 50% after a round of LO damage and a Facade, plenty enough to clean up from there. Liechi still wrecks too. Feel free to use it.
What this all boils down to is this: you have to play Carracosta well if you want to see good results out of it. I know this isn't the viability rankings thread, so I won't even bother touching on that. But you guys are talking like Carracosta isn't even worth using. Learn how to play well with it before you bash it, because based on all of your posts here and in the viability threads, it seems like you don't know how to play with it effectively.