CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 7 (Base Stat Spread Poll 2)

[Sunday]

Pure Utility Pokemon

Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.

Primary Typing: Poison
Secondary Typing: Ground
Style Bias: Mixed, Between -5 and -10 -- Slightly towards defence
Build Bias: Between 5 and 10 -- Slightly towards physical
Base Stat Rating: 300 to 419 -- Very Good

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Alright guys, we're finally ready to vote on our Pokemon's base stat spread. We had seven submitted spreads, four of which have made it into the second poll. Each one has had a lot of thought put into it by it's creator, and I ask that you honour that by carefully reading through their description of their thread to see exactly how it was put together, and above all why it deserves your vote.

X-Act

this post[/URL].

I must thank those people that end up voting for my stat spread in advance.

X-Act

Gothic Togekiss

100/80/100/70/95/110 = 555

HP&Def: Same as Celebi and Jirachi and we all know how sturdy those little blighters are. With Max HP and Defense, this pokemon will be able to take hits like a champ. Here's a little demo on how study this guy is.

Adamant BandCross using Megahorn/Close Combat against Max HP/Def CAP4 poke:
Damage: [B]27.97% - 32.92%[/B]
Choice Scarf Version: [B]18.56% - 22.03%[/B]

Stone Edge:
[B]18.56% - 22.03%[/B]
Choice Scarf: [B]12.38% - 14.6%[/B]

Night Slash:
[B]21.78% - 25.74%[/B]
Choice Scarf: [B]14.6% - 17.33%[/B]

As you can see, this baby beats both CB and CS variation of Heracross. This guy would give Hera enough incentive to use Earthquake instead of Night Slash/Pursuit from time to time.

Atk: Strong enough to dish out some damage towards those foes with it's stabbed moves, but a far cry from sweeping anythings.

Sp. Atk: 70 is the same stat Castform, but have you seen Castform sweep a team? I didn't think so. Mostly be unless with what it will be done.

Sp. Def: The weaker of it's two defenses, but don't be fooled by that. It can take non-stabbed Ice, Ground, and Psychics type move in stride. I'm somewhat amazed how study it is when it comes to special attacks.

Speed: Allows it to outspeed all forms of Garchomp, Heracross, Lucario (excluding Scarf versions), and anything below 110. The only problem about maxing out speed is that you're less defensive and limits your ability to come into things.

Maniaclyrasist

My spread is as follows

95 / 76 / 109 / 90 / 80 / 105 = 555



Hp: 95 - This pokemon aims to be a great utility pokemon and should be able to take a hit or two if necessary, however its primary function is not that of a wall and it's defenses should reflect that.
95 base HP allows this pokemon to take a few hits when it needs to but without the pokemon becoming overly defensive, especially when its defenses are taken into consideration.

Attack: 76 - I find it more ideal for this pokemon to be specially orientated offensively so I lowered the Physical Attack stat in respect of this. My reasoning for this is explained more in the description for Special Attack

Defence : 109 - As i mentioned previously, this pokemon needs to be able to take a hit and it's typing leans towards defending some of the most common physical attacking types in Bug, Fighting and Rock.

109 base defence allows this pokemon to take attacks from these types relatively well as well as allowing it to survive through moderatly powered super effective attacks like Waterfall or Earthquake.

Special Attack: 90 - I had previously given this poke 100 base attack but with the decisions at the polls I had to alter it. I believe making this pokemon Special based as far as offense goes as it adds a unique charateristic to it. (how often do you see a special Ground type) Special attacks also seem to represent the Poison type better at least from an aesthetic point of view.

Most of the other spreads don't even have an attacking stat over base 80, which I believe to be too low. We don't want to make this pokemon terrible at attacking, just because it's aimed primarily at being a utility pokemon. With a base 90 Special Attack it's not going to be sweeping anytime soon, but it won't be simply a pushover in terms of offense.

Special Defense: 80 - I previously had base 90, enabling this pokemon to take some of the weaker Special hits and survive the occasional super effective hit. I had to lower the Special Defense stat to take the polls into consideration, but Base 80 is still quite enough for taking weak to moderate Special hits and ensures this pokemon has a weaker defensive stat that opponents can prey on if they aren't able to take it out due to it's higherPhysical Defense.

Speed: 105 - Fairly high speed is important but I feel going as fast as 110-140 is unecessary. I settled on 105 as it allows this pokemon to still outspeed the likes of quite a few pokemon like Lucario, Heracross, Salamence and even Garchomp to quite possibly set up some form of Utility move before they attack wheter it be a screen or Encore, or even attack them if you so desire.

Kingdrom

Listed below is the stat distribution I would like to see, keeping the stipulations in mind. To make it easy to remember, I made the base stats all multiples of five.

BST: 550

150 HP / 75 ATK / 65 DEF / 60 SP. ATK / 70 SP. DEF / 130 SPD

Physical Sweepiness: 119 Rank 1: Above Average
Physical Tankiness: 132 Rank 3: Good
Special Sweepiness: 96 Rank 0: Average
Special Tankiness: 140 Rank 3: Good
Offense/Defense Balance: -8.7 Slight Bias to Defense
Physical/ Special Balance: 8.4 Slight Bias to Physical
Overall Rating: 308 Very Good

Now, let me explain. My vision for this pokemon would have to be Celebi and Blissey-like support in a faster, more defensive oriented version of Vaporeon or Hariyama. In fact, Hariyama is where I got the idea for high HP and mediocre base defense. For me, there would be nothing better than to have a pokemon switch in on a DD Tar/Mence, Taunt or Encore it before it can DD, then put it out of commision with EQ or Counter/Mirror Coat. An already interesting Pokemon could be made even more unique by giving it such a one-of-a kind base stat distribution. It is my hope that this Pokemon would be the one of the best anti-set-up-sweeper tanks around. Thus, the simple looking Base Stat Distribution is not so, as everything ha

*Paragraphs explained in the order of Hp, Atk, Sp. Atk, Spe, both defenses, and Overall Rating*

First of all, the HP. Base 150 means that without any EV's, this Pokemon would sit at 441 Hp minimum with 31 IV's. This allows said Pokemon to set up 101 subs with ease. This Pokemon will be able to take non-STAB hits very well. Since the HP is already so high, there would be less of a need for HP EV's, meaning that there are many useful EV spreads.

The attack, at Base 75, is decent enough to use for some sort of sweeping. However, with anything but a 4x super effective attack or a super-effective STAB move, it will be hard for this Pokemon to OHKO walls without relying on a Choice Band. However, with good defenses, immunity to Electric attacks, and useful resistances in general, a physical sweeping set isn't novelty. Plus, Gravity+Earthquake would be a cool combo.

Special attack, at base 60, is poor. While sweeping from the special side may not be viable, it is still somewhat useable in order to dent Pokemon who cannot defend themselves on the special side. This also helps to balance out the great defenses and insane speed. It also keeps the physical/special balance towards physical while retaining the high special defense.

The speed, at Base 130, is about as high as humanely possible without becoming broken. With only 16 Speed Ev's and a + nature, this Pokemon reaches 334 Speed, enough to outspeed all non-scarf Garchomps. Some people might wonder why I didn't decide to use Base 140 Speed instead. Well, this pokemon would be too dangerous if it maxed out at 416 Speed. 416 Speed would ensure that you outspeed all non-scarfers besides Deoxys, Ninjask, and Electrode as well as Scarf Heracross, Scizor after an Agility, and many other pokemon that sit in that region. Plus, the extra 20 Speed does make a difference. With Base 130 Speed, outspeeding Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, and the occasional Raikou becomes a much more daunting task, but it would still be viable.

Finally, the defenses, at 65 defense and 70 special defense. While these don't seem too high for a defensive pokemon, after Ev investment, the defenses actually allow it to survive many hits when coupled with the huge 150 Hp. Although with such low defenses, it does need investment to be able to survive hits sufficiently from the physical and special side. In this increasingly offensive metagame, Blissey is losing some of her credibility as a special wall. This Pokemon would be able to wall both from the physical and the special side provided the correct investment.

Lastly, the Overall Rating. At 309, it is at the lower end of Very Good. This pokemon takes neutral hits the same as a Celebi/Jirachi/Shaymin with 91% of it's HP on the physical side with no Ev's. That is, this Poison/Ground Pokemon would have the same defensive ability as a pokemon with base stats of 100/100/100 with 91% of it's max HP (similar to Dragontamer's "SkarmBliss Cents"). On the special side, this Pokemon takes neutral hits the same as a Celebi/Jirachi/Shaymin with about 94% of its HP (min HP/min Sp. Def). This is not outstanding, but it does mean that he can take hits pretty well. While it may seem broken considering its huge speed advantage over Celebi/Jirachi/Shaymin, the low but not unusable attacking stats ensure that it will not be able to do everything at once. It has to make sacrifices to fit into a position in a team.

This guy would redefine utility- almost any support move it gets would be used well.

 

[omgthatkid]

I voted for Gothic Togekiss.
Everyone's spread has the ability to outspeed Garchomp, something very valuable.
But Gothic Togekiss has the second highest speed, only second to Kingdrom.
I really don't like the high HP low defense, because Hariyama has that...and I think Hariyama could be so much better if it had a bit better defenses.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I prefer the sturdiness and speed of Gothic Togekiss's spread over the extra power in ManiaclyRacist's spread.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Maniaclyrisist for a few reasons:

• With min attack, it has just enough Atk to OHKO the standard Specs Heatran with Earthquake.

• With min special attack, it has just enough SpA to OHKO the standard SubSeed Breloom with Sludge Bomb.

• I think a Specially oriented offense would be much more interesting than a Physically oriented one on this Pokémon. With Daddy Long Legs, it works just as well, and with many of the others, especially the Smogimp, it fits much better.

• It can't make 101 HP subs, which I've been convinced is a good thing, because it means we'd be less tempted to just max out its HP all the time, and maybe use those HP Evs on other things we wouldn't otherwise have spent them on.

• Its defenses are good enough to survive a Dragon Dance'd Life Orb Earthquake from an Adamant, 252 Atk Tyrantitar with Impish, max HP/Def. I think that's pretty impressive.

 

[X-Act]

Good luck to everyone!

 

[Thunderpup]

I spent a good deal of time doing some damage calculations on the defensive capabilities of each set, just for myself. However, I thought I should share them. I maxed out each of the defensive stats, and then ran calculations using this calculator to test how strong each stat was. Calculations are done with an Adamant 252 Choice Band Heracross, using a half-damage Close Combat (due to resistance) and a 252 timid gengar with life orb using shadow ball, unresisted. These are worst case scenarios, where the pokemon could switch into heracross, or where gengar switches in to threaten.

I also want to mention I am not voting yet. Although I've done some calculations, I don't have the time to check speed, and speed investments, or attack investments. This is a very rough model of defensive capabilities of each distribution. This isn't entirely realistic, due to the fact that each stat is maxed, and not able to be run on the same set. This is just the very top threshold of damage the pokemon can withstand.

EDIT: I also want to mention that we want balance, and not to create an overpowered pokemon. This pokemon has HUGE BST in comparison to others, so we don't need to pick the BEST distribution.



X-Act:
HP: 318
DEF: 394
SDEF: 376

Heracross: 30.8% - 34.9%
Gengar: 34.0% - 39.9%

Overall: The LEAST overpowering of all the sets. Takes the most damage on average, despite having the highest BST of all of the distributions. It takes better special hits than 2 of the 3 other spreads. Good attack, decent special attack, speed hits a unique number, but fails to outrun infernape. However, with a simple 252 HP investment, this pokemon isn't bad, due to the fact that unlike other distributions with lots of hitpoints, you can invest more in speed or attack and keep strong defenses.


Gothic Togekiss
HP: 404
DEF: 328
SDEF: 317

Heracross: 27.9% - 32.9%
Gengar: 31.4% - 37.4%

Overall: Best attack score of the three, and the best defenses overall. The second highest speed. Makes 404 HP subs. Probably the most powerful of all the distributions, in my opinion.


Maniaclyracist
HP: 394
DEF: 348
SPDEF: 284

Heracross: 27.9% - 32.9%
Gengar: 35.8% - 42.1%

Overall: Good defense, slightly lower special defense than gothic's or kingdrom's, slowest of all the sets. However, boosts a much higher special attack stat than other sets.


Kingdrom
HP: 504
DEF: 251
SDEF: 262

Heracross: 29.1% - 34.5%
Gengar: 30.6% - 36.3%

Overall: Insane speed, similar attacking stats to other sets, and strong defenses. Again, ridiculous speed, however lacks the attacking stats to sweep, so can be seen as a fast utility pokemon. Interesting, and should definitely be considered. Huge hitpoint stat means that less HP needs to be invested to get strong defenses.

 

[Flash_gearz]

I'm voting for Gothic's, because it's nearly the same thing as mine except for being a bit stronger.

 

[X-Act]

X-Act:
HP: 318
DEF: 394
SDEF: 333

Heracross: 30.8% - 34.9%
Gengar: 38.1% - 45.3%

X-Act's stat spread is the LEAST overpowering of all the sets. Takes the most damage on average, despite having the highest BST of all of the distributions.

Hopefully this is the last nail in the coffin to the 'high BST = bad' argument.

Also, it goes without saying that I didn't go overboard on this Pokemon's stats on purpose. Hopefully the voters will realise why I did that.

 

[pit-fall]

Gothic Togekiss, due to the evenness between HP and the defences, as well as Speed. But I may regret not vtoing for X-Acts...

 

[Thunderpup]

I wanted to make a point of that, X-Act.
I noticed the high BST but comparitively lower stats.

I think I may want to vote for yours, mainly because, even if I may regret it, I don't think this should be possible to outspeed infernape. This is already a really good pokemon, and threatening infernape with a faster OHKO seems too much. He was given a unique 108 for a reason. Not to mention he can easily switch into 'Ape already.

I think balance is important for this pokemon, and we shouldn't overpower it.

 

[gengod]

Maniaclyracist
HP: 394
DEF: 333
SPDEF: 284

Heracross: 28.2% - 33.2%
Gengar: 35.8% - 42.1%

Actually my spread will generate a max defense of 348.

The calc with it for Heracross would be be the same as Gothic Togekiss' spread at 27.9% - 32.9%.

 

[Thunderpup]

My bad, I realized that just now too. I think I may have accidentally decreased X-Act's special defense as well. That was an error and I don't know why I used 333, I think I was looking at base 102.

There may be other errors, so I'll try to see if I can correct them as much as possible.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Having a sneaking suspicion that this will end with a sudden death match between X-Act and Manic, but regardless good luck to everyone who made it so far. BTW, don't all the spread above balanced in their own way?

Rally the troops, vote for me >.>

 

[Time Mage]

I have voted for X-Act's again. And to everyone concerned with the potency or lack of of his spread, check the following:

X-Act:
HP: 318
DEF: 394
SDEF: 376

Heracross: 30.8% - 34.9%
Gengar: 34.0% - 39.9%

Overall: The LEAST overpowering of all the sets. Takes the most damage on average, despite having the highest BST of all of the distributions. It takes better special hits than 2 of the 3 other spreads. Good attack, decent special attack, speed hits a unique number, but fails to outrun infernape. However, with a simple 252 HP investment, this pokemon isn't bad, due to the fact that unlike other distributions with lots of hitpoints, you can invest more in speed or attack and keep strong defenses.

That's balance. You want to invest all your EVs on the defenses? Then you have the least defensive spread. You want to only invest 252 or less? Just put them in HP, and it will be comparatively more defensive than the other spreads with similar EV investment. This spread allows for EV flexibility, something that a support pokémon loves.

Vote flexibility, vote X-Act.

 

[Deucalion2]

Can anybody change my vote from Kingdrom to Maniaclyrasist? I misclicked. I really don't want X-Act to win. I'm sorry, X-Act, but while that Pokemon works competitively, and is perhaps the best set number-wise, I feel that we should try to mantain the Pokemon flavour, and those stats are just not it. Higher than 555, but not quite 580, heaps of stats indivisible by 5 (all but 2), and that is going on a Utility Pokemon, who usually have low-ish stats, and depend on the Utility of them in order to be used. It just doesn't fit flavour-wise. So, I'm strategically voting for Maniaclyrasist. Except I misclicked... :(

 

[Frosty]

All 4 spreads seems to achieve hat I want for this poke, so I am happy.

Anyway, I voted, once again, for Gothic Togekiss. It is quite bulky, fast enough to outspeed base 100 pokes without too much EV investment and has enough attack to do some damage with earthquake. Also, the spread itself is easy to memorize, which is a plus.

But really, all 4 spreads are very good.

 

[tennisace]

G_T because stylistically, it is closest to mine, except it doesn't have 109 speed =/

 

[X-Act]

Can anybody change my vote from Kingdrom to Maniaclyrasist? I misclicked. I really don't want X-Act to win. I'm sorry, X-Act, but while that Pokemon works competitively, and is perhaps the best set number-wise, I feel that we should try to mantain the Pokemon flavour, and those stats are just not it. Higher than 555, but not quite 580, heaps of stats indivisible by 5 (all but 2), and that is going on a Utility Pokemon, who usually have low-ish stats, and depend on the Utility of them in order to be used. It just doesn't fit flavour-wise. So, I'm strategically voting for Maniaclyrasist. Except I misclicked... :(

I am extremely disturbed by this. Infernape's stats are all indivisible by 5. Hippowdon's stats are all indivisible by 5. 5 of Yanmega's stats are indivisible by 5. 5 of Empoleon's stats are indivisible by 5. You need more examples? And you tell me I'm not keeping in flavour?

Yeah, a utility Pokemon has low-ish stats... and you vote for Maniaclyrasist, which has the best BSR, among which 90 SpA, a physical defense on the level of Slowbro and similar speed to my spread? Isn't that extremely contradictory? Mine and Kingdrom's actually have the least stats! I'm not saying Maniaclyrasist's spread is bad, I'm saying that it has stats that are greater than my spread.

Sorry about this, but I feel I must defend my stat spread from something as blatantly false as this. :(

 

[Deucalion2]

True, true, but they are anomalies, extreme out-lying results. The vast, vast majority of Pokemon stats are divisble by 5. Also, I'm not sure on this, but I think all the totals are divisible by 5, if not the individual stats. And, last time I checked, all Pokemon who aren't a) legendary, or b) the "Big One" that pops up once per gen at the end of the dex (Nite, Tar, Chomp, Mence), all have 555 stats or below. Yours doesn't.And I'm only voting for maniaclyrasist because his was winning at the time, and looked like the one that was most threatening to yours. I like the layout of your set, competitive-wise, but I fear it looks far too fanboyish, and slightly out of touch. Don't take it the wrong way or anything. If you rounded every stat down to the nearest ten, with the exception of speed, which would be rounded up, I'd vote for yours straight away. EDIT: Curse my broken enter key. Please pretend there are paragraph breaks.</p>EDIT 2: I've typed in the enters manually, for easy reading.
EDIT 3: So, it didn't work.

 

[Tangerine]

Voting for Maniac's spread - I'm just really iffy about the 107 speed. Giving any Pokemon Unique speed base just seems to open it up for criticism and I think it's the best to avoid that =|

 

[X-Act]

True, true, but they are anomalies, extreme out-lying results. The vast, vast majority of Pokemon stats are divisble by 5.

Not really. A good number Pokemon have at least one stat that's not divisible by 5, and some have even all 6, as I showed before.

Also, I'm not sure on this, but I think all the totals are divisible by 5, if not the individual stats.

Again, not really. Infernape, Charizard and Typhlosion's stat total is 534. Gallade and Gardevoir's are 518. Luxray's is 523. Ambipom's is 482. Etc.

Anyway, I don't like where this thread is going. What I don't like is people saying "I really don't want that spread to win". You can say "Please vote for so-and-so" all you like, but please no "I'd really hate it if so-and-so won". That just isn't fair.

 

[Deucalion2]

Why on earth can't we? There is no singular spread I'm particularly happy with, so I can't say I want so and so to win. Would it please your sensibilities if I said I want Gothic Togekiss, or Maniaclyrasist, and Kingdrom to win? Also, I'm fine with a very few being non 5ers, say, one or two. Hence why I find Maniaclyrasist's acceptable. And again, with the fire starters, extreme out-lying results. In the OU tier (which is the range within OU not including the Big Ones and the legends), that means only Infernape has non divisible by 5 stats. And you still avoided the point about the 555 stat range. I understand your post that you can make sets with higher BST that are still balanced, and I accept that, I'm not arguing from a competitive side, but from a flavour side. 556-579 do not exist, stat wise.

 

[X-Act]

Hippowdon is OU. Yanmega is OU.

And about the >555 BST thing, I've argued so many times about it that I would be needlessly repeating myself if I did again. I even linked my argument in my explanation for my stat spread. That's if you even bothered to read it.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Go Rasist. Seems the bulkiest of the lot, plus it's fast enough to outspeed stuff as well

 

[Kingdrom]

Hmm, I'm in dead last :( Doesn't surprise me, though.

I think that people should look at Thunderpup's first post as a point of reference before posting. It actually shows how defensive the pokemon is rather than letting people randomly guess what pokemon is most defensive.
All four spreads are similar in defensive ability at least on the physical side.

While my spread seems rather average defensively, only slightly more defensive than X-Act's, keep in mind that my spread doesn't need HP Ev's. That means that both defenses can be invested in at the same time without sacrificing much for speed.

@ omgthatkid: If you've used either Hariyama, Vaporeon, or even Blissey, then you know that high HP DOES make up for a low defense. Hariyama isn't even 2HKO'ed by CB Tar Earthquake with just max defense and 112 HP . That's bulky.

So, vote for me!