CAP 32 - Part 6 - Defining Moves Part 2

[nutritious blend]

1. What Normal-type moves do we want to focus on that have promise versus the metagame at large?

Extreme Speed absolutely. Play Rough just doesn't feel like it has the umph when we are running HDB and have an unimpressive attack and speed stat. I think it will give 32 a great niche in threatening Pult, Meow, Gren, Valiant, Moon, Chomp, Stratagem, and Dnite. Being able to threaten these out opens up a lot of other hard hitting teammates that want to double switch and launch attacks when things like Venomicon and Skeledirge come in to eat ESpeed.
I haven't seen anyone mention Last Resort, which I think could be really viable on CAP32. Last Resort, unlike Boomburst, requires setup and would create a unique opportunity for CAP32 to "get going" as an offensive pivot since we aren't building it with traditional boosting moves. Offensive Pivots like Dragapult have access to Draco, which is one of its best moves but often doesn't get used until it has come in a few times and clicked U-Turn and Shadow Ball to scout and maintain momentum. Last Resort would fill the same kind of role as Draco except trade the stat drop for the move mechanic of clicking the other 3 moves.

1. For our defining moves list: what should stay and what can we let go of? Which moves are not necessary or too strong to consider as we transition into the stats stage?

F*** Boomburst. Boomburst belongs on a wallbreaker imo, which CAP32 is not. Moonblast is one of the best and most spammable attacks in the game, we don't need to 1UP it. Most of our switchins lean towards the physically bulky side rather than special, which is a big reason why Espeed is not going to be too oppressive either in addition to the limited PP. I could see making a case for Hyper Voice, but a base 140 move with 16 PP and a Pixilate boost feels like overkill.

 

[quziel]

F*** Boomburst. Boomburst belongs on a wallbreaker imo, which CAP32 is not. Moonblast is one of the best and most spammable attacks in the game, we don't need to 1UP it. Most of our switchins lean towards the physically bulky side rather than special, which is a big reason why Espeed is not going to be too oppressive either in addition to the limited PP. I could see making a case for Hyper Voice, but a base 140 move with 16 PP and a Pixilate boost feels like overkill.

Given our limitations on stats inherent to this concept I'd not expect to see many spreads that focus on both Extreme Speed and Boomburst. Instead I view Boomburst as allowing for spreads that lean towards special wallbreaking, while also allowing spreads that lean towards physical revenge killing. I also don't really buy that us being a wallbreaker is somehow at odds with being an offensive pivot. Specs Magearna absolutely was an offensive pivot, but it was also a wallbreaker. Dragapult is definitely an offensive pivot, but we all know how many games it has where it just effortlessly breaks walls with a spdef drop, or even without.

Aka allow Boomburst to be a defining move because it opens up the door to special spreads in a way that Hyper Voice really doesn't. This doesn't mean I'm arguing for us to create some mixed wallbreaker that nukes with Boomburst and revenges with Espeed, cause we almost def don't have the base stats to do that, but rather that a wallbreaking specially offensive pivot is totally within the realms of what we've set out so far, so it should be legal.

 

[Ayecrusher King]

I haven't seen anyone mention Last Resort, which I think could be really viable on CAP32. Last Resort, unlike Boomburst, requires setup and would create a unique opportunity for CAP32 to "get going" as an offensive pivot since we aren't building it with traditional boosting moves. Offensive Pivots like Dragapult have access to Draco, which is one of its best moves but often doesn't get used until it has come in a few times and clicked U-Turn and Shadow Ball to scout and maintain momentum. Last Resort would fill the same kind of role as Draco except trade the stat drop for the move mechanic of clicking the other 3 moves.

There's a big difference with Last Resort and Draco Meteor; the latter's drawback is immediate, and can be nullified the next turn; the former's is the equivalent of, say, having a three-turn Solar Blade - the fact that you have to click the other three moves before you can use Last Resort means that for three turns at least, you might be wasting an action that would be better off doing something else worthwhile, like hitting them with another Normal/Fairy move.

 

[shnowshner]

Hey all, for transparency I've been busy with work since posting (and we also had two funny trees fall on our property) so I need to get through everything. It might take me some time but I'm gonna make a push to read through every post ASAP whenever I have free time. If all goes well I'll have more ready by early Friday.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

+1 for Fake Out and Explosion, and Super Fang.
- Fake out uniquely provides safe damage, which will be very valuable for CAP32. One thing that occurred to me is that, unlike our many of our concept comparisons (particularly Rotom-W and Clefable), we have a purely offensive ability, and our weaknesses are more prominent. Fake Out's forced flinch makes that vulnerability less noticeable, increasing the presence 32 can exert without having to risk taking a big direct hit. Everything threatened by Extreme Speed also doesn't appreciated Fake Out, which can force switches on things that are either weakened or need to stay healthy.
- Explosion is great for pivoting for the opposite reason, which is that once you've had enough fun switching around and being safe, you can do one absolutely bonkers-effective pivot. It's fun, gels well with our chosen direction, and provides a pretty spectacular niche even with a low attack stat.
- Super Fang is a great tech option to harass the many Pokemon that will be switching into 32, especially Poison types taking whatever Pixilate moves we toss everywhere. It's essentially Nature's Madness, which was good enough that even the more offensive Tapus could run it as a surprise tech option, despite having much higher attacking stats than what we're expecting. (It's also essentially Ruination, now that I think about it.) An attack with no immunities that puts you at or below 50% means something like a Venomicon that switches in now has to Roost as we switch out, giving up any tempo it would have gained.

 

[Pipotchi]

Its basically impossible to argue against, so Im just going to say how completely meh I feel about Explosion being a move of interest here. Explosion is a move that could be extremely fun if built around, but is very lame when just slapped on. While it is pivot-related in extremely vague terms, and hard to ever argue as broken due to its self-KO nature, its definitely an unnecessary, nuclear lure to watch out for. Again, I cant argue that its broken without seeing it in action so Im just voicing that I dont care for Explosion at all. Unless we direct the concept heavily into utilizing Explosion as its main feature (hazard/screen setter, rapid spin explosion lead, ultra-wallbreaker, whatever) I dont think Explosion has anything to do with being a pivot on regular sets.

Boomburst and Espeed seem to be the routes of interest. I think these are the only two moves that really stand out as stat-altering defining moves, alongside whatever is chosen as a non-prio physical move- be it Double-Edge which demands decent HP, or something like Mega Kick or Hyper Drill that just hits harder than Espeed. I think Hyper Drill is not a bad choice here, because its downsides such as low PP is made up for by the fact you're not running it as your only Fairy STAB, and not relying on it to make an impact in the game. Double-Edge is also a good choice, although taking a lot of recoil damage from walls can be very bothersome without recovery or a reasonable HP stat- once again balanced off by the fact that it is one of two Fairy stab choices.

 

[razorsharp3000]

Agree with the Extreme Speed, Rapid Spin, Hyper Drill, Double-Edge and Boomburst suggestions.

Looking at normal moves that haven't been mentioned yet...
Just going to throw it out there as a suggestion - Thrash - if we want to avoid signature moves or recoil moves for a high BP Normal-type move. This does force the CAP to stay in, though after it gets confused it would want to switch out.
Facade is another option that hasn't been mentioned so far. I know since the Pokemon is part Fire type it can't be used with a Flame Orb, but maybe there could be some use case with a Toxic Orb.

Do we want to go the cleric route with Heal Bell for this CAP? Could be a useful role for it.

 

[Turtlek]

Heal Bell has been restricted by CAP due to miscellaneous MirrorHerb stuff iirc

o we want to go the cleric route with Heal Bell for this CAP? Could be a useful role for it.

Also I see Screech being a good option, if Explosion is chosen. It would threaten defensive Pokémon while letting a safe option and I like Lumina Crash and one one explain this better than me plz

 

[shnowshner]

Yeah I did say I was going to do this earlier didn't I oops

Discussion so far hasn't been too surprising: Extreme Speed is without question one of the most obvious routes to securing a unique place in the metagame, with it's combination of high +2 priority and solid damage after Pixilate doing a number to the many Fairy-weak Pokemon in the metagame, primarily those that we have no hope of outpacing otherwise. Boomburst has gotten a lot of attention because of its incredible damage output allowing us to punch way beyond our middling stats would otherwise allow: this largely turns us into a Boomburst bot, but there's some merit in exploring a mon that has a very targeted big damage attack and then has to round out its set otherwise. Other great Normal-type moves have been discussed: Double-Edge and Hyper Voice are somewhat safer options that give us a bit more BSR to work with, which a big deal given how efficient our spread may need to be.

I find Stealth Rocks/Spikes to be a solid overall addition to our repertoire. We match pretty well, or at least threaten a lot of removal in the metagame, which sets us up nicely as a more aggressive hazard setter. Taunt feels like a natural inclusion as well, as it can frustrate the opponent's attempts to play around us or grant CAP 32 great opportunities to bring in teammates safely. Heat Crash has also generated interested solely off its high BP into relevant targets without the recoil penalty Flare Blitz has, while Fire Lash is simply a good move in general that helps a lot in pressuring the opponent to switch—once again, something we can capitalize on with a double out of our own..

As far as our preliminary list is concerned, I feel quite comfortable taking Lumina Crash out as sentiment on it is at an all-time low. Moonblast and Play Rough are likely to be outclassed by our Pixilate moves of choice, and as such aren't really worth worrying ourselves with for stats. And then Inferno is quite lacking without No Guard to help carry the weight.

Other things on the plate:

1. Explosion: What can we hope to accomplish with this move given its high drawback of KOing us? How could we synergize Explosion with our kit? Is there more to this move than simply "Explosion lead" or "Explosion pivot" that is typically seen on heavily offensive teams?
2. Chilling Reception: What's the impact of a pivoting move that set snow on the field? How does this influence our matchup into common team structures, or potentially inform our ideal partners?
3. Eruption: Given this move has high max BP in the same vein as Boomburst, is it still worth considering? Or is the burden of needing to stay healthy too detrimental and unsafe to dedicate a slot to when we can use a more consistent option?
4. Coverage: What's our ideal coverage type here, in terms of providing us a way around some annoying checks, but not leaving us nearly unwallable?

I do need to get some rest soon, so I'll leave things at that for the time being. Discussion has been very insightful so far and I'm already getting a good idea of where we should take things going into stats, so keep at it!

 

[Brambane]

1. Explosion is meant to deal damage while providing a safe-switch. We don't need to synergize Explosion with the rest of our moveset, its a 300 BP STAB move you click it when you think you can't get any greater value out of CAP32 in a match. There isn't really another comparison in recent generations other than Mega-Glalie, which was definitely outcompeted due to teamslot restrictions as a mega evolution. It is probably not a move you feel obligated to run, but a valid option for offensive sets if you are playing a real high tempo offensive team.

2. This move doesn't proc a few abilities like Stamina, helps prevent sun shenanigans, and maybe you partner it with Baxcalibur for a defense boost. I don't see much else use, but those are good enough.

3. I don't see this move being more of an issue at this stage, you could probably tell a spread that is too strong for Eruption when you see it.

4. Toxapex has seen a renaissance in OU as of late with offensive sets, and its still early but Toxapex's slow crawl back into CAP relevency seems reasonable. I only bring Toxapex up since its like the worst mon to pivot out of, as we have seen for three generations now, since it doesn't really get punished due to Regenerator. I favor Ground coverage as it also hits Skeledirge as the strongest option, and Psychic as the midground option.

 

[Karoshi]

Explosion: What can we hope to accomplish with this move given its high drawback of KOing us? How could we synergize Explosion with our kit? Is there more to this move than simply "Explosion lead" or "Explosion pivot" that is typically seen on heavily offensive teams?
Main thing it accomplishes is Raw Damage and a safe switch in. One detriment is that the move is linear and if we make it too strong it might feel like a needed move. Also since we aren't designing it around it explicitly I feel like it would be shoehorned into a "Explosion Pivot" role. Since CAP32 is not designed around it and if we are worried about it overshadowing the rest of the project it would be safer to not have it. If we decide we want to have a suicidal pivot Self-Destruct is a safer alternative. Full bias, I would still love to see CAP32 with it and still think it would be good for it to have but it can honestly not be slated if concerns are too great and still succeed on its own merits.

Chilly Reception: What's the impact of a pivoting move that set snow on the field? How does this influence our matchup into common team structures, or potentially inform our ideal partners?
Getting the obvious out of the way, it will disrupt other weather effects and pair well with Hail Snow teams. Snow teams are not common to say the least, so I honestly don't think it would influence team building a whole too lot. It would however be a non-damaging pivot move that has a weaker immediate payoff then Parting Shot. If we are trying to have a pivot move but want it to be less impactful for balance sake then this would be a good move to consider.

Eruption: Given this move has high max BP in the same vein as Boomburst, is it still worth considering? Or is the burden of needing to stay healthy too detrimental and unsafe to dedicate a slot to when we can use a more consistent option?
Assuming we have a speed stat at all Eruption would be worth considering taking on CAP 32. Only real concern is that it benefits a lead more then a traditional Pivot. Might also turn into the focus that overshadows other sets ala Typhlosion in other metagames. Don't see it being an issue at this time, might be off base though.

 

[snake]

Coverage: What's our ideal coverage type here, in terms of providing us a way around some annoying checks, but not leaving us nearly unwallable?

With the right utility options (i.e. Knock Off), I'm not sure if coverage options are necessarily required for CAP32 to function properly, but they certainly could be optional. The aforementioned Electric, Psychic, Rock, and Ground options are still the relevant types.

---

I'm starting to warm up to physical Fire-type moves that are alternates to Flare Blitz (for physical variants). Although Flare Blitz should be accounted for, I think there's some decent merit for CAP32 to want to run both Extreme Speed for the priority and Double-Edge for the extra power against Great Tusk and others. Thus, I think it's a little more worth exploring options like Bitter Blade and Heat Crash to avoid CAP32 from having to run both Flare Blitz and Double-Edge, which would hamper its survivability quite a bit. We've seen the synergy between Double-Edge + Horn Leech on Caribolt, so I can't imagine Double-Edge + Bitter Blade being that much worse, even if CAP32 isn't a dedicated sweeper. Fire Lash is another good physical Fire-type move that will definitely work, but its weak initial power worries me. Pyro Ball would make this list if Bulletproof Equilibra didn't absorb it.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Explosion: What can we hope to accomplish with this move given its high drawback of KOing us? How could we synergize Explosion with our kit? Is there more to this move than simply "Explosion lead" or "Explosion pivot" that is typically seen on heavily offensive teams?

Explosion really doesn't need a whole lot of added synergy with our moveset outside of maybe some utility options, since the main purpose of the move is just to deal a lot of damage and generate a free switch-in. I think that outside of typical suicide leads, the best example of a Pokemon that uses post-nerf Explosion well would be Mega Glaile. The sheer power of Refirgerate-boosted Explosion made Mega Glalie a legitimate force to be recokend with in lower tiers, as the ability to essentially sacrifice itself to heavily cripple, if not outright remove a threat from the opponent's team was an amazing tool for generating momentum. I think that we should view this tool both as something that can generate momentum and a reliable (albiet risky) source of damage. I'm fully on board with this option.

Chilling Reception: What's the impact of a pivoting move that set snow on the field? How does this influence our matchup into common team structures, or potentially inform our ideal partners?

It's Chilly Reception, not Chilling Reception. shnowshner is unviable smh.

Jokes aside, the main advantage Chilly Reception has is that it doesn't proc Stamina from Venomicon, and while Parting Shot is in the same bost, the advantage Chilly Reception has is that it also can't be blocked by Hatterene or Gholdengo. In terms of how snow impacts the game itself, it doesn't really do a lot outside of just messing with weather teams (And even then, it's really just sort of an annoyance and I don't think will have too much of an impact overall). Baxcalibur defininetely appreciates the Snow support though, since the Defense boost gives it more oppurtunties to set up.

Eruption: Given this move has high max BP in the same vein as Boomburst, is it still worth considering? Or is the burden of needing to stay healthy too detrimental and unsafe to dedicate a slot to when we can use a more consistent option?

This move is no longer worth it when Pixilate Boomburst is now on the table. There's very little reason for us to bother going through the trouble of keeping ourselves healthy enough to be able to spam the move when we have a move that is both far more consistently spammable and is actually stronger.

Coverage: What's our ideal coverage type here, in terms of providing us a way around some annoying checks, but not leaving us nearly unwallable?

I already talked about my problems with Ground-type coverage, so I figured I would talk about the other types that were on the original list

Electric & Psychic: Grouping these two together since they share a lot of common ground with each other. Of the two of these, I think Psychic is slightly stronger due to being able to hit Crucibelle and Clodsire super-effectively, but apart from that they are pretty much even. As for my actual thoughts, I think they are fairly decent options. Being able to cover most of the more prominent Poison-types in the metagame is obviously going to be fairly solid, and I think that the inability to real not be able to hit Skeledirge all that well is a good balancing tool for us to have here. I don't have much of a preference here, but if I had to pick, I would argue Psychic since like I said earlier, it's the stronger choice between these two options, albiet not by much.

Rock: I'm fine with this option as well. The big tradeoff here compared to Electric/Psychic is that we are making our Toxapex matchup worse in exchange for making our Skeledirge matchup better. I think that given the resurgence of Toxapex in the metagame (Atleast in OU, but I can very much see it transfering over to CAP), this trade may end up becoming mostly even, although because of the uncertainty, it wouldn't be my preference even if I see no reason to outright disallow it.

Anyways, I don't really have too many other suggestions to add in terms of types, since I think that all of the ones that are on the list right now get the job done well enough. All of these, with the exception of Ground (Which we should stay away from) should be kept on the list, and nothing else should be added. I do have my doubts as to whether or not they would be nessecery, since I can see them being overshadowed by certain utility options (As snake sort of alluded too previously), but that's just my personal stance and not a real reason to remove them.

 

[Sawyer.]

Explosion: What can we hope to accomplish with this move given its high drawback of KOing us? How could we synergize Explosion with our kit? Is there more to this move than simply "Explosion lead" or "Explosion pivot" that is typically seen on heavily offensive team?

The mere threat of Explosion is also a great way for CAP32 to grab momentum against bulkier teams. Explosion is more than twice as powerful as Double-Edge, which massively expands the list of targets that it can threaten with a KO. In other words, it opens up many more opportunities for CAP32 to pivot, and avoids it potentially being dead weight against bulky builds.

Something else worth mentioning is that the combination of Explosion and Extreme Speed makes it relatively unnecessary to conserve CAP32's health. This is ideal for a pivot with mediocre bulk, allowing it to be played more recklessly and switch into Knock Offs if needed. It could even make Flare Blitz a more appealing physical Fire STAB.

Finally, I just think Explosion is a more creative solution to the problem of low stats than, say, Boomburst. Obviously a high-powered move can compensate for a low offensive stat, but the idea that players can justify sacrificing CAP32 for a single nuclear attack is a much more interesting conclusion for us to draw as a community.

Explosion has perfect synergy with our concept, mitigating our low offensive and defensive stats while grabbing momentum, and is the best direction for us to take imo. With that in mind, I think it should be one of the top defining moves (along with Extreme Speed) that we balance CAP32's stats around.

 

[dex]

1. Explosion is fine. It isn't going to be broken, and if people want to build around it, they can. I don't think it will see much use ultimately, but could be an ok option. It isn't worth stating around tho.

2. Chilly Reception is essentially outclassed by Teleport (which is in the game btw) and Parting Shot. Also U-turn. Basically, not worth it. You could make a case for pivoting moves to impact bulk, but ain't no way is Chilly Reception better than Teleport, Parting Shot, or U-turn.

3. I don't think Eruption is the play. If CAP 32 can use it, that means it has 2 extreme BP options. If it can't, then it doesn't run it. I don't think the move is worth the trouble now.

4. To be honest, I don't think coverage is even worth worrying over too much. 9/10 times CAP 32 is gonna click the funny fairy move anyways. The other issue that arises with coverage is the fact that the things coverage is trying to hit hard (Venomicon, Toxapex, Skeledirge, Garganacl, etc.) are so bulky that they really don't care about coverage. Hitting these Pokemon super effectively is, for the most part, meaningless, because they don't get 2HKOed, heal up, and force CAP 32 out. Therefore, the best coverage CAP 32 could wish for isn't super effective coverage for these Pokemon, it is Knock Off. Knock Off provides CAP 32 with an obvious means of generating progress against its checks and gives it an extra dimension outside of I use da STAB move. Every other coverage option pales in comparison to what Knock Off does for CAP 32, and so I think it should be the real focus of that discussion. This is, of course, assuming a physical leaning for CAP 32. A special leaning would in all likelihood appreciate coverage types like Ground and Psychic, as that coverage gets a lot more effective when it is special.

On a related note, there are other means of generating progress that could be looked at: status. The big one that I think CAP 32 can make the most use out of is Wisp, which is just generally helpful to have on most teams, forcing a lot of Pokemon out while damaging the survivability of things that do take Wisp well. We saw how Astrolotl could use Wisp to essentially force Landorus-T out in SS, the move is strong and good for what CAP 32 needs to accomplish in terms of forcing switches.

 

[Brown4Sides]

The big one that I think CAP 32 can make the most use out of is Wisp, which is just generally helpful to have on most teams, forcing a lot of Pokemon out while damaging the survivability of things that do take Wisp well. We saw how Astrolotl could use Wisp to essentially force Landorus-T out in SS, the move is strong and good for what CAP 32 needs to accomplish in terms of forcing switches.

Hide

S Ranks:

S Rank:
Venomicon-Prologue - I guess this weakens Body Press but it's not gonna use that against CAP 32 anyway since it resists it

S- Rank:
Arghonaut - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Garganacl - Immune to burn

A Ranks:

A+ Rank:
Dragapult - Threatened by Fairy STAB, Special attacker
Equilibra - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Great Tusk - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Iron Valiant - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Jumbao - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Krilowatt - Can't be chipped by burn, Special attacker
Revenankh - No longer viable, even if it was it's threatened by Fairy STAB

A Rank:
Gholdengo - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Iron Moth - Immune to burn
Roaring Moon - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Rotom-Wash - Special attacker
Skeledirge - Immune to burn

A- Rank:
Caribolt - Threatened by Fire STAB
Cinderace - Immune to burn
Dragonite - Threatened by Fairy STAB but it runs Tera Normal so I guess this works
Garchomp - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Greninja - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Hatterene - Special attacker (also I missed this earlier but also Magic Bounce)
Kingambit - Threatened by Fire STAB
Snaelstrom - Poison Heal
Volcarona - Immune to burn
Zoroark-Hisui - Special attacker

All this realistically cripples is Prologue and Dragonite, which I don't think is enough to make it usable. I really don't see us putting it on our moveset over something like Knock Off which can cripple more stuff, or just general utility like hazards or even pivoting. You mentioned how Astrolotl used it against Landorus-Therian, but Landorus-Therian isn't usable atm.

TL;DR wisp bad

 

[dex]

Hide

S Ranks:

S Rank:
Venomicon-Prologue - I guess this weakens Body Press but it's not gonna use that against CAP 32 anyway since it resists it

S- Rank:
Arghonaut - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Garganacl - Immune to burn

A Ranks:

A+ Rank:
Dragapult - Threatened by Fairy STAB, Special attacker
Equilibra - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Great Tusk - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Iron Valiant - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Jumbao - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Krilowatt - Can't be chipped by burn, Special attacker
Revenankh - No longer viable, even if it was it's threatened by Fairy STAB

A Rank:
Gholdengo - Threatened by Fire STAB, Special attacker
Iron Moth - Immune to burn
Roaring Moon - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Rotom-Wash - Special attacker
Skeledirge - Immune to burn

A- Rank:
Caribolt - Threatened by Fire STAB
Cinderace - Immune to burn
Dragonite - Threatened by Fairy STAB but it runs Tera Normal so I guess this works
Garchomp - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Greninja - Threatened by Fairy STAB
Hatterene - Special attacker (also I missed this earlier but also Magic Bounce)
Kingambit - Threatened by Fire STAB
Snaelstrom - Poison Heal
Volcarona - Immune to burn
Zoroark-Hisui - Special attacker

All this realistically cripples is Prologue and Dragonite, which I don't think is enough to make it usable. I really don't see us putting it on our moveset over something like Knock Off which can cripple more stuff, or just general utility like hazards or even pivoting. You mentioned how Astrolotl used it against Landorus-Therian, but Landorus-Therian isn't usable atm.

TL;DR wisp bad

TL;DR wisp good.

Wisp is not only useful for its ability to cripple physical attackers but also for the steady chip damage it deals. A burned Toxapex is much easier to deal with than a non-burned Toxapex, especially as many Toxapex sets eschew Recover for Asaault Vest. Skeledirge is often forced to Terastallize and dislikes Burn eating into it's very limited uses of Spack Off. Venomicon is in a similar boat, churning through its valuable Roost PP way faster due to the status. Rotom-W despises burn for denying it Leftovets recovery, something the mon desperatept relies on. As for the Landorus-T example, I assumed the mapping of Landorus-T to Great Tusk was fairly obvious and apparent, but I suppose it was not, so here, that's now stated for you. In no way is Wisp bad, it is quite amazing at what it does. I never said Wisp was better than knock, but it's a valid option for spreads that don't want to have Knock Off. I'd say that's pretty decent.

 

[bigtibba]

Chilling Reception: What's the impact of a pivoting move that set snow on the field? How does this influence our matchup into common team structures, or potentially inform our ideal partners?

I honestly don't think this move will really be that useful. If anything, it might just be used to reset weather, and even that is a bit of a stretch to dedicate an entire moveslot to over, say, Parting Shot. The only useful Pokemon that can take advantage of the defense raise is Bax, and there are no viable Aurora Veil setters or Slush Rush users to take advantage of the snow. Besides, if you were to run a Snow team, it'd probably be wise to have a more consistent setter than CAP 32. Really don't think we need to include this move.

Eruption: Given this move has high max BP in the same vein as Boomburst, is it still worth considering? Or is the burden of needing to stay healthy too detrimental and unsafe to dedicate a slot to when we can use a more consistent option?

I know the line between wallbreaker and pivot is a bit blurred at the moment, but I feel very similarly about Eruption as I do Boomburst. I won't repeat everything for the sake of redundancy, but essentially I am against Boomburst as an option. I think Eruption is fine if we don't have Boomburst on our moveset, but having both Eruption and Boomburst is a bit too much, as it essentially forces us into the role of choiced wallbreaker. It'd also be difficult to balance. Noivern has a mere 97 special attack, and it is still banned from AAA. That's with only one 150+ BP STAB option, while CAP 32 would have potentially two. In terms of competitive balance, I think Eruption is fine in the absence of Boomburst, but I don't think it's consistent enough to be useful anyway.

Coverage: What's our ideal coverage type here, in terms of providing us a way around some annoying checks, but not leaving us nearly unwallable?

I'd personally like to vouch for Rock coverage. The only type that resists both Fire and Fairy is Fire after all, which is pressured by Rock type attacks. I don't think coverage will be run that often anyway, especially with our lower stats, but the option is always nice. Additionally, CAP 32 will likely have a poor matchup against Venomicon-P, especially since it resists our predominant STAB, so Rock coverage might even out our matchup a bit.

Something else I'd like to add is that I think Spikes are much more useful on a pivot than Stealth Rock. Since a pivot is coming in and applying pressure multiple times a game, it can set multiple layers of Spikes. Stealth Rock on the other hand can only be set up once.

 

[skippergamez]

Fuck, Pixilate won

anyway! +1 on ESpeed because we’re not an offensive pivot anymore

Explosion is fine, not to broken

I’m joining the Wisp train as its great coverage for mons that would rather not be burned.

Psychic is always my favorite form of coverage as we hit Venomicon, I also like Ground to hit common fire types

 

[mark6870]

1. Explosion:
   Explosion is explosion. Honestly, if its not a lead, i wont see how explosion will be anything but a tacked on 4th move when you wanna sack CAP32 and get momentum out of it. I may be missing the point, though.
   
   
2. Chilling Reception:
   The only benefit to Chilly Reception over a pivoting move like U-turn or Parting Shot is that it resets weather, namely Jumbao's sun. I prefer Parting Shot, but it is useful, I guess.
   
   
3. Eruption:
   
   >is the burden of needing to stay healthy too detrimental and unsafe to dedicate a slot to when we can use a more consistent option?
   I was going to answer with this exact sentence but you already stated it LOL. Boomburst is the only reason we'd ever take a special route with CAP32 and it's already stronger than Eruption with Pixilate. Why would I pick Eruption as my next slot when i already have something more powerful with less drawback? Even if I didn't, why would I pick it over something like Overheat thats
   
   
4. Coverage:
   I actually prefer utility to coverage. I think we get more out of the mon if we had utility that's good against everything (or rather a wide slew of things) than spending our third slot to beat 1 or 2 specific pokemon. Utility options include Fake Out, Spikes, Paralysis, Will-O-Wisp, and a move i didnt realize before that could be fantastic, Super Fang. Super Fang becomes unblockable due to Pixilate, and the almost guaranteed chip is extremely useful in breaking down walls for our teammates/forcing them to blow their recover PP.
   All that being said, if we do go coverage, Psychic and Electric coverage beat Venom, one of our better checks. Ground beats fire types such as Skeledirge and Iron Moth while also hitting Garglenacl. Those are the only coverage worth taking IMO, and again I'd rather be walled by fire types and having useful utility like Spikes or Super Fang than coverage.

 

[dex]

Super Fang. Super Fang becomes unblockable due to Pixilate, and the almost guaranteed chip is extremely useful in breaking down walls for our teammates/forcing them to blow their recover PP

What impact does Super Fang have on stats? Honestly, what does that move do to warrant discussion now? The move is about as unimpactful as it gets, and the entire point of this stage is to discuss moves that will have some impact on stats. Also, unblockable Super Fang is nothing new; Nature's Madness Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko existed for quite a while in SS, and SV has seen Ruination Ting-Lu. If you look at those examples, Fini used Nature's Madness on its trapping set, which CAP 32 does not do, and Tapu Koko used the move to exclusively chip things that did not have recovery, which CAP 32 cannot do. I don't see why Super Fang has gotten so much discussion when stuff like Knock Off has barely seen any despite Knock Off very obviously benefitting CAP 32 and definitely warranting some stat consideration while Super Fang does not very obviously benefit CAP 32 (honestly, you're telling me you're clicking Super Fang instead of Extreme Speed/Boomburst? I don't believe you). The discussion around Super Fang is a complete non sequitur in the context of this stage of the process.

 

[shnowshner]

So, it's important to reiterate that Defining Moves is less "These moves are what CAP 32 is going to run," and more "These moves make it easier to inform and justify decisions in the next stage." In this case, that stage is stats. Previously we didn't go into stats with any moves explicitly, and this would result in stats sometimes being unfit for moves that had been driving factors of previous decisions: the classic example being Smokomodo in SM with Technician. Make sure that whatever moves you suggest not only make sense here, but also have impact on our stats, i.e. how Pixilate Extreme Speed influences our Attack or how recovery can massively inflate our bulk.

I don't understand the Super Fang discussion. Relevant Ghosts get blasted by our STAB anyway and all of our better switch-ins are handled more effectively either just by spamming attacks, crippling with the status/Knock that we already have on the table, or legitimately just switching out. Pixilate offers the move nothing and the move offers 32 nothing.

Anyway, I will have more time to keep things rolling after my shift ends. Expect to see an updated Defining Moves list sometime early Saturday.

 

[shnowshner]

Ok, as promised, here's the beginnings of our defining moves list.

Required:

• Extreme Speed, Double-Edge, Hyper Voice, Rapid Spin, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Fire Lash
• At least one of: Flare Blitz/Heat Crash — U-Turn/Volt Switch — 50% Recovery/Strength Sap — Stealth Rocks/Spikes
• At most one of: Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song — Psychic/Thunderbolt/Power Gem
• Knock Off

Optional:

• Boomburst, Will-o-Wisp, Parting Shot, Taunt

Quick rundown of things, "—" is used to separate what we'll call move blocks, so that it's easier to tell which moves are grouped together. There's a couple things I still need to figure out what to do with:

Boomburst has such high BP that it massively warps our Special Attacking stat limit, so I don't feel comfortable putting it in required moves if users would rather opt for higher Special Attack for our Fire STAB: at the same time, I could just have you pick between it or Hyper Voice, but I wanted to leave the "pick one" category for signature moves and moves of similar strength or purpose. I might be having a mental crisis over this one so someone please speak sense to me.

Explosion is also very powerful but conspicuously absent from this list, as I feel like the move just doesn't suit stat discussion. Realistically, Explosion is either going to hit absurdly hard, but we have to make it count since we KO ourselves otherwise, or the damage aspect is moreso a bonus of getting a free switch and potentially denying the opponent their turn. These don't feel like good avenues to balance our stats, but rather neat aspects we could look into upon reaching movesets. As such, Explosion hasn't made the cut.

I have opted for Special Psychic/Electric moves as our choice of coverage, and decided to go with Psychic and Thunderbolt as they are the simplest and most consistent. I do feel that having Fire-types check us in some capacity is important, meaning Ground and Rock felt a bit too powerful as they seriously limit our pool of reliable counterplay.

Rapid Spin is in the required moves section solely because of the +1 Speed on hit: the damage and hazard clearing effect is nice, especially when it's unblockable by typing alone, but the big thing here is boosting our Speed, which can get dangerous if we go the route of "click nuclear Attack button."

Depending on how things go I may or may not be around tomorrow, if not then we might be another discussion phase until late Sunday. I would like to gauge people's opinions on the list so far and what might be better arranged, missing, or removed, so I'll hold off on a deadline to save my own sanity going forward.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

2. Chilly Reception
Is it possible to 'tier' Defining moves? I ask, because setting snow lacks options for who can make use of it on the field currently. It feels like a very welcome future proofing for when Home let's some of the Hail abusers from Gen 8 come in, and that team archetype becomes much more viable, not to mention any potential from Gen 9 DLC.

CAP32 on paper is looking like a decent delivery vehicle for it, but tiering the speed is going to be difficult without working in calculations for Home Mon who don't exist in the meta yet. And those calcs may come at the expense of other more appropriate defining moves. Parting Shot is the nearest analogue to it; in the best case scenario, Parting Shot puts opponent at -1/-1, new Mon comes in, no problem, but Chilly Reception requires Ice type to come in, and is 'only' +1/0 until it can get an AVeil up the following turn.

Parting Shot is generally superior in this regard, and Parting shot should be built around of the two stat wise IMHO for this reason. With reduced stats ourselves we need to be very careful about our stat array, and get out every bit of efficiency from it.

If we build too much speed into it to account for eventually bringing in Ice types to abuse snow, and they dont prove to be effective, Base Stats have been wasted that weren't necessary, when Parting Shot may have been able to have a more narrow range of switch ins, and give us more offense/longevity. Or the other way, speed is too low because we've only accounted for Snow abusers in calcs, and Parting Shot would be more effective with more speed.

It's a mixed ramble this post, but in essence I support Chilly Reception, especially as it could, in theory, at least open future Gen 9 concepts to snow abusers with another decent Mon in the toolkit, but I don't think it should be an absolute top grade concern over much more useable options, that can take effect right out of the gate.

 

[Brambane]

Fire Lash and Rapid Spin seem out of place.

Aside from ExtremeSpeed, pretty much everything in the required list is generic STAB move territory. ExtremeSpeed should obviously be required based on thread discussion, it pretty much defines the physical route. Rapid Spin and Fire Lash do not.

Fire Lash to me seems more like an "at most one of" move. It is pretty much a signature move since the only Pokemon that actually uses it Astrolotl (lol Fire Lash Salazzle and Volkraken) and it is a move that you don't always want to give CAP32 access to, but you could. Basically Fire Lash is a pretty safe move to click if you want to hedge your bets and save one of ExtremeSpeed's precious 8 PP, since a Fire Lash into a -1 Defense ExtremeSpeed is just stronger than two ExtremeSpeeds against neutral targets. Facile math, I know, but I think it gets the point across. This move is more a "build the spread around" move than the other generic STAB options.

Rapid Spin should just be optional; you shouldn't feel obligated to design your spread around Speed-boosting in mind based both on concept, role, and all the options we have put on the table. Seems like an odd requirement, but definitely an optional choice for your spread's identity. It reads as a move that would have its own specific stat limitations/allowances to me.

While we are here, the niche of "spinning vs Gholdengo" is really not all that important in CAP. Equilibra spins vs Gholdengo constantly by walling it to hell and back for balance teams, forcing it out anyways. Caribolt compresses spin and offensive threat into one slot (as does Colossoil, who also is pretty good at forcing Gholdengo out) for offense and hyper offense. And its not like CAP is pressed for removal at the moment, so Rapid Spin is a relatively low priority move (lower than ExtremeSpeed!!!!!!!! get it???) and not worth making required.

Everything else looks good, content with Explosion not making the list; not a move worth warping stats around.