CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Ability Discussion

[RotationalBasis]

Abilities that affect the way status works seem to be very popular, so I may as well state the ones I'm in favour of and the ones I'm against.

Firstly, I will come out and finally say I am truly in favour of Flare Rampage, which would allow some, but not all variations of CAP 2 to check bulky waters and absorb WoW and Scald. By comparison, Flash Fire seems overpowered, making CAP 2 a counter to Heatran (whilst actually doing nothing for Scald); Water Veil, even if it made sense flavour wise, only favours physical sweepers.

Wonder Skin is another charming one, as it does nothing to make CAP 2 immune to status (in case it's not clear, I think any complete status immunity is taking it a step too far), but makes Breloom, RotomW and other status abusers think twice - in effect it gives no advantage per se, but it does level the playing field. Each of the complete status immunities has been suggested, and all of them, it can be argued, are a little too strong. As I've said before, excessive strength railroads Pokemon into limited roles (ie. Limber - fast sweepers/statusers; Immunity - tanks/stallers; Water Veil - physical sweeper). Wonder Skin acts as a nerfed version as every single one of these abilities, promoting diversity whilst not granting undue power.

Whilst I'm posting, I think perhaps Pickpocket, Pressure, Cursed Body, Anticipate and Unburden might value more discussion. The first four are generically useful, but can't be put towards any specific use, which I think suits CAP 2 fine. Unburden is a bit iffy, but it was mentioned before.

 

[AlfaTyrogue]

I would say before we go give Sketchmon good sweep abilities, we should think about the concept: We need to see which moves will be popular with sketch.
By giving it offensive abilities, we make it more offensive and more predictable.
I think we need to let it choose between an offensive ability and a defensive one i order to make it more varied.

 

[petrie911]

I don't have any immediate abilities to throw out there, but I have to say NOT to consider Flash Fire or Trace as an ability since they essentially rule out Heatran as one of our counters, which is not at all what we want.

Trace does not rule out Heatran as a counter. If Heatran is switching in, then CaP2 Traced a different Pokemon's ability. It does create the odd scenario where Heatran switching in forces CaP2 out, while CaP2 switching in forces Heatran out.

Also, it leaves open the possible fun of tracing Jirachi's Serene Grace, then going on a rampage with Sacred Fire.

There's some other fun stuff it can do, like grab Natural Cure off Starmie/Celebi/Blissey, grab Magic Guard off Reuniclus, Intimidate Gyara and Mence, and trap Magnezone/Dugtrio right back. But there's also so many Pokemon that Trace simply doesn't do anything to. It's a situational ability, but one I think is worth considering. Plus, the flavor with Sketch is undeniable.

 

[Project_Mars]

I am going to jump on the Compoundeyes bandwagon. The increase in Accuracy improves the amount of things it can run and be threatening with, and as mentioned many times before, works for all sets.

Another ability I would like to promote is Trace, except it is too counterproductive to previously mentioned goals by turning Heatran into a safe switch-in by copying Flash Fire. So It's a No. (edit: And scaring off one of your counters doesn't quite make them one of your counters, does it?)

Serene Grace would be an interesting ability to give CAP2, as there are a ton of interesting things to sketch that would abuse it. Also any troublesome move combos (para-flinch) from this can be fixed beforehand by keeping both (or all of the) moves in question out CAP2's movepool entirely.

Finally, I would like to ask if Filter counts as an immunity ability, or if it's okay to put on. A problem I would see with this is by reducing SE hits by 25%, it would add a bit more bulk than desired out of CAP2, especially against it's counters.However, if Filter is used, it would then actually make CAP2 the best to turn to if one wanted a pokemon that could threaten weather teams. It's typing already has it threatening Sand and Rain teams, while being able to wall the numerous grass-types of a Sun team, and then roast them alive with a fire attack it sketched.

 

[Yllnath]

I, too, am charmed by Compoundeyes. It seems a great ability, for the sake of all the support moves and lower accuracy moves that can be sketched and suddenly become viable on sets.

I also want to throw my support behind Regenerator. I feel that a status resisting ability of any kind is great too, but I feel this ability relates better to instant attacking sets or choice sets. A Sub can also take care of status moves, often used by pokemon slower than CAP 2. If CAP2 would gain Regenerator, suddenly sets like Sub + 3 attacks, scout sets or choice sets (perhaps with trick) could become more commonplace next to the boosting sets that already seem to be the better and more common sets. This would increase it's flexibility, which imo is the point of a Sketch mon.

So I´d love to see Compoundeyes and Regenerator. As for status absorbing, I´d rather see Immunity than Limber, because of the widely spread Toxic (Spikes)

 

[Spork]

I don't really like Compoundeyes very much. I like that, to an extent, it increases the viability of special attacking sets lacking Tail Glow, but it would very much put me off giving it something like Will-o-Wisp or Power Whip in its base moveset, just because they are extremely powerful moves and we would be remedying their only drawbacks. Power Whip is a really scary move too - you're breaking stuff like Jirachi at +2. I suppose it could find a supporting niche as the best dealer of burns, but I kinda thought we kept its defence stat low for a reason anyway... There's always Victory Star as a weaker alternative, and I think to an extent it could be better - things with 90% acc are given full accuracy, which cuts hax on sets that use them, while moves that are almost deliberately nerfed in their accuracy, as low accuracy prevents brokenness (Focus Blast, Will-o-Wisp), aren't boosted so much that they lose sight of that.

Regenerator is ehhh because residual damage is a big part of being able to deal with CAP2 - he's almost limitlessly unpredictable, but at least the one thing we can always rely on is that Spikes, Life Orb, Sandstorm etc are always going to be able to deal with him - this is partly why Dusk is against Overcoat.

I'd also dislike Immunity for a similar reason, although I much prefer it to Limber (why is setting up on Ferrothorn so required? Thunder wave is a big part of being able to check CAP2, and Jirachi and Ferrothorn, two natural checks, often need it to take it out). Honestly, if you want to surprise Ferrothorn, run Lum Berry like everyone else.

I also don't really understand the Shield Dust hate. It allows CAP2 to counter Scalding Bulky Waters, it allows us to check Thunder users without resorting to Limber, and it just generally cuts hax. There are fairly few times where we are even worrying about Flinch - Togekiss is checking us almost 100% of the time anyway and hits us SE, whilst Jirachi isn't going to be going for the Iron Head as much as the Ice Punch - so the fact that we can't be flinched is barely relevant. And then, when it comes to normal and fighting moves with secondary effects, well, we're immune anyway. Cutting hax, cutting burn from waters, and cutting paralysis from electrics makes this far and away the best ability in my eyes, because haxy paralysis and burns really prevent CAP2 from fulfilling its roles.

Also when it comes to Iron Fist, I'd like to say I'm confused as to why it is the "best" ability, because the only punches that aren't outclassed or equalled by other moves are Drain Punch and Focus Punch, neither of which are particularly notable Sketch options (maybe Drain Punch), and both of which are kinda against the grain when placed in the base movepool (we want to give its base movepool souped-up fighting moves when its few counters are Darks and Steels? Really?). I just don't think it's relevant.

Trace has no relevance to anything. How is an ability that is situational by definition going to help take advantage of specific moves we've sketched?

Wonder Skin is an ability I'd like to avoid because it's so unreliable. The best thing to say about it, though, its that it really makes the opponent think twice before going for a status move.

Water Veil is somewhat interesting. Burns are relevant to CAP2. I don't feel it holds huge significance though.

And I've already expressed opinions on Sniper. Super Luck is better for stallbreaking outside of storm throw, but is an ability that makes only two moves more viable worth it? maybe

 

[Deck Knight]

Compoundeyes runs aground on the same shoals as Shield Dust: Namely that it's too powerful on CAP 2 and it would mean we'd have to balance CAP 2 solely based on its movepool.

The thing about CAP is that it's not a fanboy wank. We're not building a war machine that is flawless in every possible way, what we're trying to create is something that has a realistic sense of balance. Consider two 5th Gen Pokemon that would have gotten us laughed at if we created them last Generation: Excadrill and Reuniclus. These two Pokemon have nearly flawless stats and abilities for what they do, so invariably for them to be somewhat balanced Excadrill doesn't even get Stone Edge or Iron Head, and Reuniclus is mercifully limited by 30 Spe and the fact it has Thunder but not Thunderbolt so it doesn't have a reliable coverage move.

Because Compoundeyes lifts so many boats in Sketch, it makes it almost impossible to argue for any naturally occurring (Level-up/Egg/TM) coverage move and even a host of support moves. It complete throws off the balance of a move like Stone Edge, by making a Coil set that would be bulky and patch up Stone Edge's accuracy generally inferior to a Shift Gear set. In general I would want us to bias our best booster selections toward Coil and Quiver Dance, and there needs to be a mechanism for that. Compoundeyes removes that mechanism, and makes a slew of coverage and support moves impossible to balance with Sketch. In effect it makes CAP 2's movepool focused more around not breaking Compoundeyes than it does complimenting Sketch.

Now is the time to lay back a little and be more passive with our abilities, so that when Movepool does come around, we haven't limited our options to the point where any combination of moves would "break CAP 2." 97% Will-O-Wisp, 97% Stun Spore, 100% Stone Edge, 100% Leech Seed, 100% Draco Meteor, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Hi Jump Kick (the list goes on) - Compoundeyes simply allows CAP to do too much with Sketch since it removes the weakness of any attack whose main drawback is imperfect (but not terrible) accuracy, while at the same time making a large variety of status and support moves too accurate for their own good.

 

[RotationalBasis]

Here here, Rising Dusk; CAP is not about making the best Pokemon. This thread isn't even about choosing the 'best' ability. It's about choosing the most appropriate ability. Sketch is what this Pokemon is about, we don't need to make it better than what Sketch allows, we just need to make it work

But what are we left with? Which abilities will make CAP 2 work?

 

[reachzero]

Compoundeyes runs aground on the same shoals as Shield Dust: Namely that it's too powerful on CAP 2 and it would mean we'd have to balance CAP 2 solely based on its movepool.

Because Compoundeyes lifts so many boats in Sketch, it makes it almost impossible to argue for any naturally occurring (Level-up/Egg/TM) coverage move and even a host of support moves. It complete throws off the balance of a move like Stone Edge, by making a Coil set that would be bulky and patch up Stone Edge's accuracy generally inferior to a Shift Gear set. In general I would want us to bias our best booster selections toward Coil and Quiver Dance, and there needs to be a mechanism for that. Compoundeyes removes that mechanism, and makes a slew of coverage and support moves impossible to balance with Sketch. In effect it makes CAP 2's movepool focused more around not breaking Compoundeyes than it does complimenting Sketch.

Now is the time to lay back a little and be more passive with our abilities, so that when Movepool does come around, we haven't limited our options to the point where any combination of moves would "break CAP 2." 97% Will-O-Wisp, 97% Stun Spore, 100% Stone Edge, 100% Leech Seed, 100% Draco Meteor, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Hi Jump Kick (the list goes on) - Compoundeyes simply allows CAP to do too much with Sketch since it removes the weakness of any attack whose main drawback is imperfect (but not terrible) accuracy, while at the same time making a large variety of status and support moves too accurate for their own good.

I would rather like to hear the list go on, because nothing you named sounded even remotely gamebreaking at 100% accuracy to me. 100% WoW and 100% Glare are probably the biggest deals (Glare > Stun Spore because the accuracy is perfect and it hits Sap Sipper Pokemon), yet Glare would almost certainly use up the Sketch slot, and let's be honest: Glare at 100% is only a marginal upgrade from Glare at 90%. Will-O-Wisp is pretty awesome at near perfect accuracy, I'll concede, but when I have Sacred Fire available, I'll take Burn at 50% on a base 100 physical Fire move over Burn at 97.5% by itself most of the time, especially if you need to Sketch WoW (which is 100% in our control. If we feel 97.5% WoW is too good for CAP2 to learn naturally, we could simply disallow it...).

The other attacks you mentioned were Stone Edge, Leech Seed, Draco Meteor, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, and Hi Jump Kick. Of these, for what we know of CAP2 thus far, the only two of these that it would ever make sense for CAP2 to use are Leech Seed and Bolt Strike, and even Bolt Strike is pretty iffy as a coverage move that is rather redundant with Grass, particularly in BW OU. Stone Edge is decent I suppose, but since it doesn't hit Ferrothorn hard at all, I don't think it'd be unbalanced even starting at 100% accuracy. I would absolutely never use it under any circumstances outside of having Compoundeyes, including on a Coil set. Hi Jump Kick is probably the worst move in competitive Pokemon, considering that it is far too risky to use if the opponent has a Ghost on his team--and in a metagame which has CAP2, every team will have a Ghost on it, virtually guaranteed. And when I say that, that is not even factoring in Pokemon like Heatran that somewhat often use Protect (and would use it more often if they knew HJK was a factor). I'm not a big fan of Compoundeyes, but not because I believe it is overpowered--I believe Compoundeyes is a little too weak for CAP2 as it has been constructed. If CAP2 had base 120 SpA, Compoundeyes would be phenomenal. With base 120 Attack and Grass/Ghost typing, Compoundeyes just isn't that useful, especially compared to something like Limber or Natural Cure.

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

Deck Knight is right. They probably already explained it better than I'm about to, but I'm going to try anyway.

The problem with Compoundeyes as I'm beginning to understand it, and indeed the problem with a lot of abilities that we've been considering that widen the pool of moves that Sketchy will be able to viably abuse (Iron Fist, Skill Link, Technician, etc.), is that they detract too much from Sketchy's concept. Instead of becoming about Sketch itself and the wide variety of moves that it makes possible, Sketchy becomes about picking up moves that take maximum advantage of the ability (if the ability is one worth taking advantage of, that is). The reason for that is that there are a great number of moves that Sketchy might like right now that Compoundeyes is totally irrelevant to and would thus be end up being overlooked if it ends up with the ability exactly because the ability would be irrelevant to them. If we give Sketchy Compoundeyes, we're not learning about Sketch anymore; we're just learning about how to take maximum advantage of accuracy and Compoundeyes, and I'm pretty sure that another CAP, Syclant, already took care of that.

This may be a bit hyperbolic, but I'm looking at suggesting Compoundeyes like suggesting Prankster. It can be justified in that it makes a wider variety of moves more attractive because it lets us use more of them to their maximum potential, certainly, but it's so good that we're just going to end up concentrating on that instead of Sketch itself. It wouldn't be that Sketchy gets Sketch and just so happens to get priority with non-damaging moves. It would be that Sketchy has Prankster and just so happens to get every move that can be abused with it. The reason for that is that, because of Prankster, we would have much less reason to look at moves that don't benefit from it, because if we Sketched one of those moves, then we'd be wasting the potential granted by Prankster. Plus there's already been a CAP, Tomohawk, made to abuse it, so we're not really learning very much new.

I just don't see any way around Compoundeyes compromising the integrity of the original Sketch Artist concept.

 

[Axmaster68]

Personally, I support a few abilities: Compoundeyes, Limber, Natural Cure, and Effect Spore.

Compoundeyes gives CAP2 the oppertunity to get better accuracy on many of its moves to keep from going OP.

Limber would remove the prospect of paralysis, which would be a major problem when it comes to Dragonite.

Natural Cure can take care of any status, but to an extent, giving CAP2 the opportunity to defensively improve, though it requires switching, so it wouldn't be too OP.

Finally Effect Spore would make the opponents of CAP2 have to be wary of the potential side effects of physically attacking, forcing more switches then CAP2 would usually, possibly opening up a sweeper to sweep, without being very much overpowered.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

For once I agree with reachzero - nothing on Deck Knight's list seemed even remotely close to overpowering CAP2, especially if they aren't Sketch moves. I was under the impression that one would have to Sketch WoW or Stun Spore regardless, given this thing's function as a bulky attacker. The one point I think you did make was that Stone Edge may well be very powerful on Sketchy should it be a TM move; however, we can always ditch it if it comes to that. And it's still only a base 100 power Rock-type move.

Compoundeyes makes strong coverage options available, but crucially, we are almost certainly only ever going to be allowed one, be it HJK, Blizzard, or Sacred Fire even. It's hardly overpowered.

If anything, I am far more worried about Limber and Natural Cure being overpowered. I can see poison and paralysis being massive, MASSIVE weapons in order to combat sweeping Sketchy - hell, they're probably the only really reliable checks that exist. I've being seeing arguments floating around and they're either saying that status is irrelevant or extremely important, and arguing for Limber from there. Sketchy should be able to be paralysed, and we shouldn't make it that much harder to stop.

 

[Scoopapa]

Right now the most likely moves that CAP is going to sketch are insane boosting moves and physical Fire and Fighting moves. None of these moves really have accuracy issues. Compoundeyes mostly effects special moves and support moves. I dont see how this limits diversity, it seems more like it would obviously create it. Sure it makes Power Whip pretty good but it's not like you need sketchy to miss in order to counter it. Nobody talked about misses in the previuous stages whatsoever.

 

[jas61292]

I would like to jump in and support Deck Knight on his opinion of Compoundeyes. Honestly, if, as Rising Dusk said, we do not really want an ability that boosts damage output, then why would we choose this when essentially what it does is make more powerful moves a better option. And that is not even touching on the power it provides status moves. Now, as reachzero said, most of those moves it won't get or have a need for, but then, all I get out of that is that it may make one move potentially overpowered, in exchange for being useless otherwise.

I also think Asylum_Rhapsody brought up a very good point. If we include an ability such as Compoundeyes, this project may very well turn into more of a study of accuracy then a study of general Sketch itself. In fact, I believe this could really be said about any ability that effects attacks, and as such I think it would be better to go for something that effects the Pokemon itself, rather than the moves it uses.

Overall, I think that Compoundeyes is not a good ability. It will either end up being too powerful, or completely useless, and it distorts what we are really trying to learn about with this Pokemon.

 

[petrie911]

Another ability I would like to promote is Trace, except it is too counterproductive to previously mentioned goals by turning Heatran into a safe switch-in by copying Flash Fire. So It's a No. (edit: And scaring off one of your counters doesn't quite make them one of your counters, does it?)

I disagree. A counter is a Pokemon that can safely switch in and force the Pokemon out. Even with Trace, Heatran can do that. So Heatran counters CaP2. However, it should be noted that Trace really only lets CaP2 switch in to offensive Heatran (or mono-attacking Heatran). Defensive 'tran can Toxic you, Roar you out, or both.

 

[Smith]

I am really strongly against CompoundEyes and honestly agree 100% with Deck Knight, you guys are just asking for it imo. We can argue back and forth about whether or not it makes the CAP overpowered, but I think it shifts the focus of this CAP away from Sketch and onto which high power low accuracy moves it can abuse. I'm still very much in favor of subtler abilities like those mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

I'll volly one more time for Trace being a nice flavor ability with some potentially good usage. Making Heatran a safe switch in isn't that big a deal, as it can switch in on CAP 2 mon itself without any fear, or as suggested earlier Roar it out. Rather than thinking about one Pokemon Trace might make CAP 2 mon able to deal with additionally, what would it due for some current meta Pokemon he might already switch into?

Starmie: With resistance to Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt, immunity to Rapid Spin, double STAB SE coverage and 120 base sp def to tank off unstabbed Ice Beams, Starmie is a good Pokemon to switch into, and stealing Natural Cure would be good.

Reuiniclus: Again, Psychic/Focus Blast it can take and Shadow Ball will need some decent CM support to take out CAP 2 mon. Switching in and stealing Magic Guard, then forcing it out with his huge attack/Shadow Calw.

Blissey: 120 base attack will allow Cap 2 mon to be a decent answer for Blissey in a clutch if it doesnt naturally get a decent physical fighting move, and being able to eat a Thunder Wave/Toxic while its in and then leave unharmed will make it much more apt to do so.

Arghonaut; Having a resistance and an immunity to his stabs Cap 2 mon can come in and steal Unaware (like it can on Quagsire) and threaten it out with Grass stab and base 100 defense.

The list goes on, but Water Pokemon in particular have some great abilities cap 2 mon can snag off them when he would already be switching in. He can already switch in on electric moves, which have the msot abilities that absorb them, and water moves, and at best, he can steal Moxie off of something Like Gyarados and boost up. Even then, he's just asking for a good phazing Pokemon. I don't think Trace gives it anything broken, while letting it switch in on good switches even better and being flavor full with Sketch.

 

[Scoopapa]

What high powered, low accuracy moves are we abusing exactly?

The best ones to use for physical coverage remain V-Create (95%), Sacred Fire (100%), and Close Combat (100%). Bolt Strike (85%) is there but it already has acceptable accuracy and isn't going to suddenly become the only option if it also has 100% accuracy. Stone Edge pales in comparison to these other options, anyway, since it doesn't even hit the Steel-types who wall Grass/Ghost. The decision is still going to come down to what pokemon you want coverage on, just like it would without Compoundeyes.

The only worthwhile moves in the 70-75% accuracy range are, as I just mentioned special and support moves. To take advantage of these you must either:

1. be using a crappy 85 base special attack stat without one of the sweet boosting moves we nerfed it for
2. be giving up coverage and being walled by Steels

moves like Thunder, Blizzard, and Magma Storm aren't going to be overwhelmingly strong anyway. Aside from Blizzard, they all have better physical equivalents that can be used off of a much higher attack stat. At least they won't be trash the way non-STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower will be coming off of 85 base SpA. 97.5% Stun Spore is pretty silly to worry about when we could just have Thunder Wave (Ground-types wont be fond of our Grass STAB anyway). Will-o-Wisp becomes strong but as Reachzero mentioned, it's still hard to choose instead of Sacred Fire. Compoundeyes also does nothing to affect a little move called Spore.

Please stop referencing this great list of forever unnamed strong-but-inaccurate moves and start backing your posts up with concrete examples. There really aren't that many moves we have to worry about.

 

[capefeather]

Honestly, at this point, Limber, Immunity, and Shield Dust are the only significant abilities that really make sense on this CAP. All of these give people legitimate concerns; however, with Limber, remember that we're concerned about random paralysis from Thunder, and with Immunity, let's remember that this can help sets that may otherwise be inferior to the bread-and-butter boosting sets. Deck Knight has given a good shoot-down of Shield Dust, and I get that it's a very good ability, but considering our concern with random secondary effects more than non-attacking moves, I think it's still a legitimate consideration. (I mean, is prevention of Freeze and random burns that big? I guess Scald is, but still...) It is pretty dumb that it prevents Jirachi flinch; it's not like Jirachi always runs Fire Punch.

I don't see much of an argument for anything else at this point.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Alright, well, I'm really glad that there was a burst of activity before I woke up. However, now that I'm up, it's time to close this and move onto the primary ability poll. You'll see my slate and the reasons for it when the next thread shows up in several minutes.