CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 4 - Stat Limits

[Axmaster68]

Personally, with this being a Grass/Ghost type, I'd like to see CAP 2 favor more of the physical sweeper side, with good mixed defenses, but better in the special side. Overall

PS: Very Good

SS:Good(but not too good)

PT:Good

ST:Very Good/Excellent/Whatever is above Very Good.


When it comes to bulky offense, having defenses is very much necessary. Even so, any bulky sweeper needs to be able to sweep somehow, and I've always wanted to play with a physical ghost type. Every pokemon should at least have somewhat of a weakness, and that could come in only an all right HP stat, or just a good special attack. Hopefully, the weaknesses could provide something that would not put CAP 2 in Ubers, as I don't play Ubers much.

 

[FinalEquin0x]

Well, the things we want to revenge CAP2 with (Scizor and Sucker Punch users are the most common call-outs so far) all resist Shadow Sneak anyway.

True but having a main STAB as Shadow Sneak w/ Technician boost is pretty sexy coupled alongside a good physical sweepiness

Also, Not all revenge killers nessecarily abuse a Priority move(I.E. some Terrakion sets, some Lati sets, etc, etc)

 

[verbatim]

PS: Above Average
With physical sweepiness, you need to take in mind what this CAP can accomplish. Ghost and grass are two predominantly special attacking types, and as a result, there will be few STABS to take advantage of, so you want to actually hit hard with the limited attacks you get. In the realm of boosting moves, coil and gear shift are decidedly inferior to the special boosting moves of tail glow and quiver dance.

SS: Good
Special sweepiness should not be bad by any means, but it should be kept in the good-average area. First off, the STABS availible are predominantly special, and there will be ample room in movesets to have special attacks, making it easier to run with. Second, the special boosting moves, like tail glow and quiver dance, have a possibility to make this a potent threat.

To my knowledge Good>Above Average. Perhaps thats where Pikapwnd is coming from?

 

[Birkal]

People are not posting things like "Good" and "Average" based off of their own understanding of the words, or at least they shouldn't be! Rising_Du(s/c)k posted the BSR thread in February (it is linked in the first post of this topic). Within the topic, there is a definitive list of the order of these terms. I'll copy and paste it here:

If PT/ST/PS/SS is     Stat is      Examples
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Less than 25        Horrible     Diglett (PT), Krabby (ST), Chansey (PS), <N/A> (SS)
    25 to 49            Bad        Whismur (PT), Shuppet (ST), Wynaut (PS), Beldum (SS)
    50 to 74            Poor       Buneary (PT), Gible (ST), Munchlax (PS), Corsola (SS)
    75 to 99       Below Average   Espeon (PT), Furret (ST), Snorlax (PS), Tauros (SS)
   100 to 124      Above Average   Scyther (PT), Quagsire (ST), Gligar (PS), Swampert (SS)
   125 to 149           Good       Slowking (PT), Moltres (ST), Hitmonchan (PS), Dragonite (SS)
   150 to 174         Very Good    Weezing (PT), Gyarados (ST), Mew (PS), Blaziken (SS)
   175 to 199         Excellent    Tyranitar (PT), Mantine (ST), Infernape (PS), Roserade (SS)
   200 to 224         Fantastic    Bastiodon (PT), Umbreon (ST), Electivire (PS), Porygon-Z (SS)
  More than 224        Amazing     Rhyperior (PT), Kyogre (ST), Rayquaza (PS), Alakazam (SS)

I hope this further facilitates our discussion! I would recommend reading through that entire topic and Deck_Knight's helpful post to get a good grasp on the material. Thanks for reading!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Alright, so I've been really busy, but I've sat down and thought about this a goodly bit. I've finally come to a conclusion about how I want the stat limits will play out. I'll edit this post with my conclusion, but I'm just closing the thread now to prevent further discussion. Sorry that this took so long, but I worked Thanksgiving and the day before/after, so I didn't really have a chance to sit down and formulate my thoughts on the matter!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Limits:
PS: 175 (Excellent)
SS: 150 (Good)
PT: 165 (Very Good)
ST: 160 (Very Good)
BSR: 355 (Excellent)

Okay, here we go. I want CAP 2 to have an offensive presence, but I understand the things we have to deal with in Sketch as an offensive boosting move and/or coverage move. BW is a powerful metagame, and if we were doing this concept in DPP I'd likely reduce these limits, but in BW you need to be strong to survive in OU.

Firstly, I want to note that many posts in this thread have convinced me that SS should be lower than PS. The simple fact of the matter is that special sweepers have Hidden Power in their arsenal for added coverage, and have the absolute best boosting moves in the game between Quiver Dance and Tail Glow. Yes, there is Shift Gear for physical, but I think among Quiver Dance and Tail Glow and Hidden Power, there's a lot more to worry about specially. For that reason, I've set SS and PS where they are, with SS being lower than PS. I know this opens up the question of "Shift Gear", but you need to remember that Grass / Ghost STAB coverage is fairly poor, as it is singularly resisted by Steel-types. Furthermore, physical sets lack the versatility that is Hidden Power with which to run a Fire-type or Ground-type move. In this way, I don't think we have much of an issue with these limits.

For the tankiness, you may look at the limits and tell me that "it won't be THAT bulky with just those limits!" but there's more to it than that. Grass / Ghost has a ton of effective bulk in its typing, and you also have to consider just how bulky some Pokemon in OU are. Scrafty, for instance, has 154/154 PT/ST. Dragonite has 157/164. Having these limits easily allows us to be very bulky in addition to our typing, and matches the bulky offense model very adequately. In comparison, Gyarados also has 135/169 PT/ST before Intimidate, but lacks the impressive boosting options like Coil or Quiver Dance. In this vein, I do not think we should be as effectively bulky as Gyarados (you need to remember Intimidate on Gyarados), and so I wanted the limits to be lower than his effective limits. And then, as to why PT is higher than ST, it's mostly because of the presence of such a powerful boosting move to be Sketched as Quiver Dance. When choosing between Quiver Dance and Tail Glow, it really comes down to the Speed boosting and the SpD boosting. I think Quiver Dance can patch a slightly lower ST, but there's nothing equivalent physically. Coil is about the best it's got, and while it's good, it's not boosting Speed, which opens up another can of worms for taking hits.

Lastly, the combination of legitimately high PS and Sketch enables the use of off-the-bat power sets, which may enable us to use more Sketch options like Sacred Fire or some such. Since in those cases, we aren't Sketching boosting moves, we would need a high power for them to be even remotely valid as sets. Hopefully these limits serve us well.

Thanks for your patience and contributions; expect the next stage shortly.