Balanced Hackmons Species Clause Vote

[The Immortal]

Following up from the discussion here.

This is one measure we are trying first. The next options will depend on the outcome of this poll.

The poll will be closed next Sunday, June 21st, at the earliest, with the potential to go through Saturday and Sunday if discussion is heated and or there is a large turnout. If there is a clear winner and more than 50 votes have been cast total, the winning decision will be implemented. If there are less than 50 votes and/or the decisions have a close number of votes, we reserve the right to extend the poll's length until we reach 50, or, in the event that that does not work, choose a winner from the suspect thread based on quality of arguments.

 

[verbatim]

No Species Clause wins at 52-44

 

[verbatim]

You may now post

 

[Klang]

What does species clause even achieve?

The problem is not 6 Rayquaza-M/Groudon-P spam teams, the problem lies in those Pokemon themselves. At the moment, you only need one of those Pokemon with the right coverage to sweep entire teams, and species clause does nothing to fix this. In addition, this hurts otherwise legitimate strategies such as double Imposter and Imposter + Fur Coat Chansey, which seriously hinders defensive play (even further).

To prove my point, I challenge you to spam any Pokemon that isn't one of the big 5. You'll quickly notice your team is decent at best and won't get that far.

Rayquaza-M + Groudon-P + Kyogre-P is far, far more deadly than 3 of any of them.

 

[grurk]

I'm confused, what's the reasoning behind this.

 

[The Immortal]

You can click the link posted which takes you to page 121 of the BH thread where this was discussed. As I said, this is the first part. The next poll will depend on the outcome of this one. We did not want to mix Species Clause with bans.

 

[Rumors]

While single-mon spam isn't the thrust of the current problem, I don't feel it's healthy or good for the metagame. And reglancing at the linked section, it seems like a lot of others agreed with that stance. Though it does have the collateral damage of hurting double Eviolite Imposter and double Shedinja, but I feel those aren't too big of a loss since you can still double-Imposter anyway and, unless I'm mistaken, double(or more)-Sheddy is uncommon.

To prove my point, I challenge you to spam any Pokemon that isn't one of the big 5. You'll quickly notice your team is decent at best and won't get that far.

I did pretty well with a 6-Xerneas team during X/Y and made around mid-upper ladder before ORAS hit. It'd be harder now though with Primaldon, but it could probably just be modified to account for him.

 

[grurk]

A groudon/rayquaza played well is just as threatening as two of them.

 

[MAMP]

While I don't feel that species clause would solve the main issues that plague bh at the moment, teams spamming multiples of the same Pokemon are very powerful at all levels of play and very frustrating to play against. Even teams running 5 or 6 of the same pokemon , something usually considered a shitty gimmick, are actually very threatening. This is not only bc they can easily wear down common counters to that pokemon, but also bc it is impossible to tell the pokemon apart, which means that games against these teams just devolve into dumb guessing games, which is not fun and uncompetitive. I feel that species clause will be beneficial for the meta game and hopefully lead to more diversity in teams, however the crux of the issue with bh is the big 5, and to a lesser extent protean.

On a different note, I feel like this is a very poor way of conducting a suspect test. As of this writing, there are 32 votes on the poll. Of those 32, how many are competent, experienced players, and how many are randoms who run skill swap normalize gengar and contrary blaziken on the mid-low ladder? verbatim, you've said you're opposed to a council because you feel it would be too 'circlejerky' and not represent the opinions of the entire playerbase, but is this really any better? Plenty of people who don't know what they're talking about will just vote based on a gut reaction and not on experience; do we really want these people affecting the future of the metagame? Ik bh is too small for a suspect ladder, but there needs to be some way of making sure that only players that know what they're doing can vote.

 

[CactusCacti]

Honestly in the topic right at the same page I already had my two cents on this and it's pretty much the same;
In my opinion; in the long run this will only cause more trouble and less fun for the metagame than do any good.
It won't be more than a screwy bandaid to slow down bigger threats cause you can't spam multiple of em, but it won't fix the matter of fact that they are powerful enough to work alone and weaker mons with multiple roles will suffer from it more instead.

 

[Rumors]

A groudon/rayquaza played well is just as threatening as two of them.

Literally untrue by virtue of math. Pdon has 180/150 offenses vs regular don's 150/100, aka amazing/vergood to verygood/average. It also lacks the Fire-typing, which removes its hardest hitting STABs, its amazing STAB coverage, and gives it back a number of weaknesses, such as Grass and Ice/Refrigerate and removes key resistances such as Fairy. Meanwhile, Rayquaza goes from 180/180 to 150/150, which isn't as big, but its speed goes from 115 to 95, which means it drops several significant speed tiers (most notably base 100), making it MUCH harder to Boomburst nuke by both virtue of lower power and making its frail butt more susceptible to revenge KOing. It also means it speed ties with Kyurem instead of outspeeding.

Not saying that they can't be threatening, but they are most definitely not "just as threatening" as Pdon/Mquaza.


Edit: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 241-284 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 161-189 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 139-164 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 140-165 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[Lcass4919]

to be honest, im not for or against the clause as it is atm, a species clause would do nothing to solve the CURRENT problem, and until that is resolved i see no reason to suggest a species clause. sure, multiple groudon, kyogre, and rayquaza are proven to be powerful, but all the same, they are just as threatening to the meta as a standalone. to be honest, we need to sort out the current problems with the meta, before we go into trivial matters as a species clause. i get species clause is an issue...but its not an issue that literally EVERY team runs. rayquaza and groudon are literally on EVERY team nowadays, and the results of using them are INSANE even when PREPARED for. sure, species spam is a problem, but its not NEARLY as common, and only skilled players can even HOPE to pull it off without using the "deadly trio"

yes, we might need one down the road, but we surely have priorities to attend to before we even think of the "smaller" stuff. why are we worrying about something that only happens once every 10 teams which a skilled player does simply for fun(ive yet to see some random average player pull it off), when there are literally 2 pokemon that OWN the tier and are used on every-single-team? sure they are both problematic, but shouldn't we go with "worst comes first" or something? i get you feel like this would "blanket" the problem by limiting it, but this isn't like "atespam" where it was multiple abusers, these two are often used togeather yes, but people RARELY pack more then one of each. since you only need one of each to get results you want.

 

[thesecondbest]

I agree with what quite a few people said above, I voted no. even though 6 groudon teams can succeed I think that makes the metagame more fun. The strategy of spamming a mon is not the broken part, the issue is that the individual mon has so much variety that it can put in work with 3+ different abilities. Mon-spam is not broken unless the individual abuser is broken.
(I have steam eruption latios so p-g spam isnt an issue except for the desolate land ones, I beat a 4 pg team once piloted by a good player. The winner of that tournament was a person with the big 5 + chansey. That's the real issue.)

 

[verbatim]

While I don't feel that species clause would solve the main issues that plague bh at the moment, teams spamming multiples of the same Pokemon are very powerful at all levels of play and very frustrating to play against. Even teams running 5 or 6 of the same pokemon , something usually considered a shitty gimmick, are actually very threatening. This is not only bc they can easily wear down common counters to that pokemon, but also bc it is impossible to tell the pokemon apart, which means that games against these teams just devolve into dumb guessing games, which is not fun and uncompetitive. I feel that species clause will be beneficial for the meta game and hopefully lead to more diversity in teams, however the crux of the issue with bh is the big 5, and to a lesser extent protean.

On a different note, I feel like this is a very poor way of conducting a suspect test. As of this writing, there are 32 votes on the poll. Of those 32, how many are competent, experienced players, and how many are randoms who run skill swap normalize gengar and contrary blaziken on the mid-low ladder? verbatim, you've said you're opposed to a council because you feel it would be too 'circlejerky' and not represent the opinions of the entire playerbase, but is this really any better? Plenty of people who don't know what they're talking about will just vote based on a gut reaction and not on experience; do we really want these people affecting the future of the metagame? Ik bh is too small for a suspect ladder, but there needs to be some way of making sure that only players that know what they're doing can vote.

So far every vote has fallen in line with what everyone who's considered "good" has wanted, but I see your point. No promises, but depending on how this test turns out, something like a suspect test (no badges) could be considered.

 

[I wuv you]

Text

I'm pretty sure he meant 1pdon is just as scary as 2

 

[Adrian Marin]

This clause will hurt actual legitimate use of many Pokemon, such as Imposter Chansey + Fur Coat Chansey. The Ability Clause was a pretty decent way to fix "gimmick teams." Maybe a two of the same Pokemon limit is the right approach? More importantly, I don't see how this clause has a higher priority than many issues at hand. This may not be the right place to post this, but right now, I can't seem to see the difference with a council and the help you're getting from The Immortal and Eevee General. For all intents and purposes, it works exactly like a council, so I really can't understand why you're against forming one, verbatim.

 

[Rumors]

I'm pretty sure he meant 1pdon is just as scary as 2

My mistake, misread it.

But not going to edit it just in case someone later says regular Don is "just as threatening" as Pdon or similar so I can be lazy and link back to my calcs instead of redoing them.



Also, not to argue against people or anything, but I'm curious. So far nobody has mentioned any notable cores hurt by species clause besides double/triple Chansey and myself bringing up double Sheddy. What other cores are actually hurt by species clause that are prominent in the meta? And I mean actual cores, not mon-spam gimmicks.

 

[The Immortal]

To prove my point, I challenge you to spam any Pokemon that isn't one of the big 5. You'll quickly notice your team is decent at best and won't get that far.

So you're saying spamming one of the big 5 will get me far? You basically answered your own question then.

 

[Klang]

So you're saying spamming one of the big 5 will get me far? You basically answered your own question then.

Right before that statement I said that that's because they're the ones that are op not just in mass, but alone as well.

EDIT: To be more specific, after species clause the big 5 (or big 3 if you don't have a problem with the m2s) would still be broken, while spamming them would no longer be an issue. If on the other hand the big 5/3 were banned first, species clause would serve no purpose afterwards.

 

[grurk]

Literally untrue by virtue of math. Pdon has 180/150 offenses vs regular don's 150/100, aka amazing/vergood to verygood/average. It also lacks the Fire-typing, which removes its hardest hitting STABs, its amazing STAB coverage, and gives it back a number of weaknesses, such as Grass and Ice/Refrigerate and removes key resistances such as Fairy. Meanwhile, Rayquaza goes from 180/180 to 150/150, which isn't as big, but its speed goes from 115 to 95, which means it drops several significant speed tiers (most notably base 100), making it MUCH harder to Boomburst nuke by both virtue of lower power and making its frail butt more susceptible to revenge KOing. It also means it speed ties with Kyurem instead of outspeeding.

Not saying that they can't be threatening, but they are most definitely not "just as threatening" as Pdon/Mquaza.


Edit: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 241-284 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 161-189 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 139-164 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 140-165 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

*primal rayquaza and groudon played well is just as threatening as two of them.

 

[Rumors]

*primal rayquaza and groudon played well is just as threatening as two of them.

My mistake, misread it.

 

[Funbot28]

Although it may not be the most pressing issue in BH, putting in a species clause will help bring diversity in a meta game where numerous options on different Pokemon can be explored.

 

[Lcass4919]

Although it may not be the most pressing issue in BH, putting in a species clause will help bring diversity in a meta game where numerous options on different Pokemon can be explored.

a species clause actually limits diversity in a tier where only the "powerhouses" can devote themselves to making decent sets. so for example, sure double imposter chans is a bitch, but many people like to run imposter chans with fur coat chans, both of which being the two best users, on the same pokemon. taking away your choice of using either or, basically forces either: A) you force yourself to run registeel/soundproofbro as your counter/check respectively to atespam(including yours) or B) random setup mons completely sweep you against your will...but you wall ates! basically, imposter is manditory to have on most teams, since otherwise setup sweepers like shift gear groudon, or contrary completely shit on you. on the other hand, this forces you to run registeel/soundproof bro to stop opposing ray, which is rediculously easy to prepare for. see what happens? by taking away your ability to run 2 chansey, you force a LESS diverse meta. since you just eliminated over 50% of potential pokemon you COULD have run, given you didn't have a species clause.

on the OTHER hand, losing the ability to run 2 groudon sets...random example: ph eruptdon and mold breaker don, you now need a gap to fill the void a powerful QD user immune to status, thus, kyogre becomes your option. already 1 sentence in, and im already forced less diversity. on the other hand, i could get rid of moldy groudon, and instead run something like...idk...garchomp...well, chomps speed is nothing to write home about, and all in all its not really worth considering...so now you decide "ok, ill just not run mold breaker, since gengar fits horribly on my team, and thats the only good offensive mold breaker user that doesnt require me to completely scrap the teams structure" and that leaves shedinja to annoy the shit out of you, and flash fire registeel/aegislash shit on said ph groudon. making you scrap the team to fit in a mold breaker. yet again, an instance where two different roled pokemon, that were the same species are taken away, forcing less diversity and potential sets you can combine in a team.

sure this looks minor at first glace, but realize thats two pokemon, theres still like...50 more. if anything, id like a 2 specie clause, as that lets you take away 6 mon spam, while still having enough diversity in the tier to make it work.

TL;DR less repetition of pokemon =/= more diversity and in fact, results in the opposite.

 

[Rumors]

Also, not to argue against people or anything, but I'm curious. So far nobody has mentioned any notable cores hurt by species clause besides double/triple Chansey and myself bringing up double Sheddy. What other cores are actually hurt by species clause that are prominent in the meta? And I mean actual cores, not mon-spam gimmicks.

I'm still waiting on someone to answer this.

 

[I wuv you]

I'm still waiting on someone to answer this.

No there really aren't that many other cores that are currently notable in the meta, but there could be at some point.