Balanced Hackmons "Assist" vote

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Following up from here, I'm putting up the poll.

Following up from said thread. Thousand Arrows as a stand alone option was thrown in per Rumors post.


Why this took so long:

The easy answer is school. The middling answer is that I got caught up with a lot of stuff in my life. The real answer is that I lost track of things with regards to BH. I intend to deal with that so that the next poll will go up quicker.



How the poll will be interpreted:

The poll will be closed next Friday, February 20th, at the earliest, with the potential to go through Saturday and Sunday if discussion is heated and or there is a large turnout. If there is a clear winner and more than 50 votes have been cast total, the winning decision will be implemented. If there are less than 50 votes and/or the decisions's have a close number of votes, I reserve the right to extend the poll's length until we reach 50, or, in the event that that does not work, choose a winner from the suspect thread based on quality of arguments.

 

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EDIT:

Ban Assist wins with 61 votes to runner up do nothing's 24. The sim will be updated to reflect this soon.

 

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you may now post

 

[dhelmise]

Wow. I never realized how sever Assistdon was to make a possible ban. I'm actually really glad this was made though, to be completely honest.

 

[lordmagecar]

Does Assist really need a ban? It greatly inhibits your team and with it all defensive options, while on the other hand can easily be stopped by a wall. The entirety of Assisstdon can be stopped with 1 or 2 walls.

 

[aesf]

I think the real problem is priority 1k arrows, because a banded groudon 1k arrows by itself honestly isn't broken (it's still great though), but with the priority, you can't effortlessly kill it with a strong special move (since it will just attack first), you can't revenge it with -ate, because you can only have 1 ate per team, and fakespeed simply doesnt do enough to kill.

And the thing is, priority 1k arrows forces us to run complete gimmicks. Heck, look at the victim of the weak thread. Should we really have to run water shuriken skill link just to win? I mean, if just assist were banned, you'd probably only have to run steam eruption or crabhammer on that protean pokemon of yours. Oh yeah, and if just assist were banned, -ate would finally be able to revenge it with boomburst or something. And if just assist were banned, you could actually take it out with your chansey. The list goes on, but the point is, Groudon-Primal would be much more manageable if it didn't have that disgusting priority.

tl;dr ban assist or assist + 1k arrows depending on whether you think a complex ban is necessary. don't just do nothing plz ;-;

 

[Lcass4919]

Does Assist really need a ban? It greatly inhibits your team and with it all defensive options, while on the other hand can easily be stopped by a wall. The entirety of Assisstdon can be stopped with 1 or 2 walls.

name a wall that can combat tarrows spam, protean, and ates all in one. the problem is, for offensive teams, its way too straining to use 3 different walls on a team, especially when some of our best walls/counters (imposter chans, ate, steel types) cant handle the pressure of assist spam, meanwhile pokemon that can handle assist spam, cannot handle atespam. its a double negative. its not an exaduration when people say "it forces offensive teams to run fur coat". stall can handle assistspam, but even then, thats only because stall CAN run fur coaters. and otherwise falls to assistspam just as easily. sure this is normal for a wallbreaker to be able to...well...break walls. but the thing is, it also has the ability to outpace offensive teams, and completely demolish the fraility offensive teams bring. i mean, bring up the argument all you want that "its just something teams have to prepare for" but this isn't ates, or protean, which have chansey to help scare them off, or actually have a reliable method that is viable in the tier to take them out. assist spam steamrolls teams that don't HEAVILY counterteam it. and otherwise, fur coat is pretty mediocre in a specially/mixed orientated metagame where our best physical attackers are either outclassed by their special counterpart (protean mm2y can be blocked by chansey) or run mixed coverage (contrary/ates), other then stopping one strat that although rare, has no other ways around, but if you don't run that one thing, then you just outright lose to it. this is coming from a person who has never lost to assist. I don't have problems with it at all. however, that doesn't change my stance of assist spam in any way. /endRant

also assist spam only needs one move to do all this anyways.

 

[Illusio]

Alright, after laddering a bit with both Assist P-Don and Assist P-Kyogre (Steam Eruption), I think I have enough proof that Assist is the thing that's broken, not 1k arrows.

This post is mainly focusing on Kyogre because many other people can testify about how overpowered P-Don spam is.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210682347

This replay shows the capabilities of Tinted Lens Kyogre. It's more useful than P-Don is, and I would go as far to say as more powerful. It 2HKOs Giratina and counters Chansey/Blissey with an ease.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210687942

Mega-Audino was 2HKO'd with ease by this monster.


tl;dr: It doesn't matter what mon it is; assist can turn turn a great mon into an OP one. Combined with Prankster and the 32 BP it gets, the problem isn't Groudon or 1K Arrows, the problem is assist.

 

[The Immortal]

Not gonna lie, I've never seen assistdon in my life besides in replays

Not gonna lie, posts that contribute nothing to this topic will be deleted

 

[E4 Flint]

Alright, after laddering a bit with both Assist P-Don and Assist P-Kyogre (Steam Eruption), I think I have enough proof that Assist is the thing that's broken, not 1k arrows.

This post is mainly focusing on Kyogre because many other people can testify about how overpowered P-Don spam is.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210682347

This replay shows the capabilities of Tinted Lens Kyogre. It's more useful than P-Don is, and I would go as far to say as more powerful. It 2HKOs Giratina and counters Chansey/Blissey with an ease.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210687942

Mega-Audino was 2HKO'd with ease by this monster.


tl;dr: It doesn't matter what mon it is; assist can turn turn a great mon into an OP one. Combined with Prankster and the 32 BP it gets, the problem isn't Groudon or 1K Arrows, the problem is assist.

This is exactly as I was saying in the suspect discussion as well, when people said the problem was only in tarrows. Ignoring the fact that it's possible that a future move with similar capabilities as tarrows could be released in the future (i.e. a move that is neutral or SE against the majority of the tier) leading us back to this discussion, Assist can work with any move and be reasonably annoying and match up based. Ofc in this particular scenario, to block the steam eruption you could run any water absorbing ability. That sounds a lot like being forced to run fur coat for a certain other set..

 

[michaeloche]

The poll will be closed next Friday, February 13th, at the earliest

so... the poll closes in 5.5 hours?

OT: I haven't seen much of this in my BH play (thank goodness), but the fact that it makes battles nearly 100% winnable (barring e-speed or hax) seems like Assist is what needs to go. I don't have an issue with KA tbh, while it's a very good and influential move, it's not game breaking. It's like Scald in OU: annoying, but you can deal with it. Assist doesn't even need to call KA to be a bitch, hell, you can call damn near any attack with no immunities and it will likely have the same result.

tl;dr Ban Assist.

Edit: Looks like I got ninja'd a bit, oh well.

 

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Changed

 

[JungleB]

So, I'm voting to ban assist. I'm not going to write a super long essay on why I'm doing so since I'm on my phone. But I'll throw in a quick paragraph or 2 as to why I think that assist is the problem, not the other things listed.

First off, while thousand arrows is a very powerful and useful move, it isn't the only thing that assist can be effectively paired with. If we ban Thousand Arrows or complex ban the two together, people will just start running different moves instead. For example, you could just run V-Create instead on an assistdon team.

Another thing is, even if we do that, PDon isn't the only pokemon that can effectively run assist. As Flying Types Rule! stated, Primal Kyogre can be a good assist user too. I saw somebody post something about a Palkia assist team in the main BH thread. Really, there's always going to be another pokemon who can run assist effectively, no matter how many complex bans or other move bans we do.

That's why I'll be voting to ban assist.

 

[Ransei]

I voted. Well, because there is no possibility of the idea of taking away clauses like evasion and Ev limit, I chose to let Assist be banned. Thousand Arrows isn't really a broken move btw.

 

[rortik]

Definitely Ban Assist. I could write a book on why it's bad but it comes down to this: It forces me to run multiple unconventional Pokemon to counter it.

Thousand Arrows on its own isn't too bad: Ground has always been a powerful type, but it has that annoying flying thing going on. This gets rid of it, creating the perfect offensive move... and then we stick it on something with priority and more or less 750 attack.

I wouldn't be opposed to banning Thousand Arrows too, but I'm strictly a stall player, so I'm biased there.

One of my main issues with Assist teams is not that they do tons of damage and are impossible to stall. My problem is that when you try, they simply trick you a CB and then spam Assist anyway... forcing me to run something like Fur Coat MegaBro with a Slowbroinite.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I don't think there's much that needs to be mentioned about Assist and Thousand Arrows. We've been arguing about this for centuries, so I'm just going to go straight to the point. Thousand Arrows is definitely not the only viable move Assist teams can use, there are other moves with similar viability; as such, I'll just go for banning Assist itself.

 

[Nova]

Do nothing, assist is fair play, we both can use it hehe bwoii

 

[Lcass4919]

Alright, after laddering a bit with both Assist P-Don and Assist P-Kyogre (Steam Eruption), I think I have enough proof that Assist is the thing that's broken, not 1k arrows.

This post is mainly focusing on Kyogre because many other people can testify about how overpowered P-Don spam is.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210682347

This replay shows the capabilities of Tinted Lens Kyogre. It's more useful than P-Don is, and I would go as far to say as more powerful. It 2HKOs Giratina and counters Chansey/Blissey with an ease.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-210687942

Mega-Audino was 2HKO'd with ease by this monster.


tl;dr: It doesn't matter what mon it is; assist can turn turn a great mon into an OP one. Combined with Prankster and the 32 BP it gets, the problem isn't Groudon or 1K Arrows, the problem is assist.

kek "any regular wall can stop it, i just don't have any walls" lol. that made me chuckle.

252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 196-232 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
^this, as we all know, is perhaps the two bulkiest things that doesn't use fur coat that can take this hit. let us not forget giratina has 150/120/120 bulk, which is way higher then 95% of the tier the remaining few being steel type or rock type. the reason i ask is, do we seriously consider "40%" on average being a "reliable wall", especially when this one poke has to deal with FIVE of them? i don't. kek.

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

Assist, gtfo of BH. Anything that can destroy over half of the metagame is broken, and seeing as how this is only stopped by double Sturdinja or Fur Coat, I feel that this is broken. 1k arrows, although annoying, is not broken. If you ban 1k arrows and not Assist, the metagame will simply start using things like Steam Eruption, which forces you to use water immune abilities. That being said, there are more water immune abilities, but you get my point.

I'm voting for Assist to gtfo.

 

[CactusCacti]

I'm still keeping my stance on Assist + Thousand arrows being the broken combo as other viable moves have lot more resistances and counter plays than the ol "hey look at me, this move hits all but two pure types neutrally"
But I dont think that matters at this point, Assist seems to be winning the poll by long shot regardless.

 

[Ransei]

Do nothing, assist is fair play, we both can use it hehe bwoii

So, you call someone spamming assist thousand arrows and demolishing your team a fair play?

 

[aesf]

So, you call someone spamming assist thousand arrows and demolishing your team a fair play?

It was a joke

 

[Rumors]

Huh, someone spammed votes for Do Nothing out of nowhere. Last I checked it was like... ~40 to ~5 to ~6 to ~5.

To whoever is voting for that though, good luck when nobody has even posted an argument in favor of doing nothing.


Oh, and out of the options presented, I voted to Ban Assist. For reasons already illustrated by others.

 

[EV]

If you're coming into this thread just to vote up an option because somebody told you to, please don't. It's unfair to the people who play BH. Please only vote if you have a stake in this metagame, not because it's funny to mess up the poll results.

 

[Pikachuun]

I have a hunch that the people who voted "Do Nothing" all run Assistspam or of course are just joking around. If you voted for "Do Nothing" (or any other poll option for that matter) please provide a valid reason as to why you think Assist and/or Thousand Arrows are/aren't OP, besides that it would rek your strat or that both people can use it.

With that being said I actually ran AssistSpam, and voted for "Ban Assist" for reasons stated above (plus I wrote a wall of text in the BH Suspect Discussion thread. tl;dr FOCUS PUNCH GROUDON-P WAS USED A LOT as well as Thousand Arrows Blissey/Chansey)