Abusing the games best move [OU]


Fearsome, huh? Well, probably not. But still the (imho) best move in the game – Substitute.

Intro:


When building this team, I had one goal in my mind, which was abusing Substitute to beat offensive teams while also defeating stall teams by setting up TSpikes. To support the Substitute users, I added some Wish-support. I threw in some fillers and went testing on a new alt…. which reached the leaderboard in 3 hours of laddering (I usually don’t ladder, but holidays are different :x). Pretty decent I thought, so with a few improvements here and there, I started using it on my PurpleWeezing account, which was at 1500 when I started playing. One day (and a half) later this team reached #5 with a rating of 1634 (which was also where I got tired of laddering). Also I reached the semis of Sunday's Smogon Tour. 'Nuff said.

At A Glance


A Closer Look



(F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic Spikes
- Hidden Power [Ground]

One of the most reliable leads in today’s metagame, while also being the most reliable Toxic Spiker for offensive teams. Most of the time, Roserade gives me a huge advantage from the start (75% accuracy still sucks). Only few people carry some kind of status taker, so sleep is like a pseudo-kill, something good to have. Let’s not forget about the opportunity to set up a Substitute against sleeping opponent. Leaf Storm just hurts anything not being a special wall or resisting it, while Hidden Power [Ground] provides decent coverage and catches random Heatrans, believing i pack HP Fire

Toxic Spikes is one of the reasons this team works. Against stallish teams it’s extremely easy to set up two layers of it, which is also pretty important, as those layers are needed to take out Blissey in the long run. Against offensive teams they aren't as useful, but it's still incredibly helpful to poison the likes of offensive Suicune.

The EVs aren’t too creative I guess. Max. Speed is simply needed to at least tie other Roserade (and outpace HP Fire ones). Max SAtk to pack quite a punch, 4 HP lol




@ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 64 HP/196 Spd/248 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball

Easily my MVP in most games… Rotom is the teams spin block and my first abuser of Substitute. Usually I can set up a sub against some kinda of bulky water and begin my rape there. Most people are switching in some kind of electric resist into Rotom, such as Jolteon or Flygon. Against both I use Shadow Ball, as they use either Shadow Ball or their dragon move. Guess what, free substitute for Heatran. Other common switches into Rotom are Tyranitar, Swampert, Blissey and Snorlax. Tar takes like 50 % damage of Hydro Pump, and if necessary I can stall it with TSpikes up. Swampert is just lol. Blissey can’t break the sub and slowly goes down due to the poison. And Snorlax sucks, as it’s commonly packing rest. This Rotom basically counters its counters with Toxic Spikes on the field.

The set itself is pretty straight forward. Substitute is just great, period. Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt are the STABs, providing awesome coverage. Hydro Pump rounds the set up by hitting Magnezone, Tyranitar and Steelix (lol) hard. (Considering HP Fight)

The HP EVs are supposed to give the Substitutes enough bulk to take Blisseys special hits most of the time (yes, I’ve faced both SpecsBlissey and Blissey with Shadow Ball with this team). Speed outpaces adamant Luce, the leftovers went into SAtk.



(F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse
- Substitute

The second abuser of that move I’ve mentioned too often in this thread. Not as good as Rotom, it’s still a very dangerous force if it gets up a sub, which isn’t too hard… we’re talking about Heatran guys. From there on sweeping could begin, if there wouldn’t be so many annoying things taking Heatran’s moves like real men. (I’m looking at you, Latias) Heatran really shines when the opponent relies on bulky waters like Swampert or Vaporeon to remove it. Even if I can’t beat them 1 on 1, it just means a free Substitute for Rotom.

Substitute is the reason for this team. Fire Blast and Earth Power are on like every Heatran out there. I used to run Hidden Power Electric over Dragon Pulse, but Gyarados rarely came into Heatran and guess why I have Vaporeon (ResTalk Gyara on stall teams is a whore tbh)

Again, the EVs aren’t special at all. Max Speed + timid are just standard, Max SAtk to pack some punch.




(F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Such a cute, great pokemon. MVP #2 in most matches somehow.

I really needed Vaporeon to pass wishes around, which is incredibly important when I’m planning to set up some more subs. Surprisingly enough, Vaporeon is the one who scores the most late game sweeps on this team. Most offensive teams don’t have much stuff to touch it, so after I got rid of those counters, Vaporeon can stall out the opponent with the combination of Wish, Protect, Toxic Spikes and the own attacking moves. What I really like about Vaporeon on this team is that it keeps up a shitload of offensive pressure, even without the ability to deal much damage, simply by threatening a Wish pass to another fearsome sweeper (or sub abuser lol).

The set is just your standard Vaporeon, meant to counter Gyarados and Infernape. Wish and Protect work great in conjunction with the Toxic Spikes, Surf is the main stab and HP Electric ruins Gyarados.

Nothing to explain, the spread is straight forward…




(F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower

How creative.
Scizor is an insurance against MixMence, Mamoswine and stuff like that. It's also probably the best scout in this game and scouting really helps when I’m not sure whether I should set up a Sub or attack. Also Scizor traps and removes Latias, another important asset, seeing how Latias is specially bulky and immune to TSpikes.

Eh, the moves are boring as hell. I used to run Quick Attack over Superpower until I got swept by Clefable and Curselax (on one team lol)… Bullet Punch is a great asset to revenge stuff, Pursuit traps annoying Gengar/Latias, U-Turn is the second-best move in the game.

EVs are bog standard again. I forewent the speed EVs to lose any speedtie against other Scizors, coming out on top of those situations.



@ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/244 Def/12 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Defensive Metagross is…. cool. I always wanted to try the tank set :s My third steel type and secondary Latias insurance (oh fuck you Hidden Power Fire). Metagross is an incredibly underestimated tank, easily capable of walling Tyranitar and switching into Salamence with nearly impunity, as nothing comes close to a KO, barring Dragon Dance’d Earthquake. Also I needed Stealth Rock, so I guess it filled the bill. If I don't know what to switch in, Metagross it is (commonly). Stops random Gyarados and other annoying stuff should something go wrong.

Meteor Mash is STAB, EQ gives the best possible coverage, Explosion stops annoying stuff from sweping me (Cune e.g.). Stealth Rocks are a must have on my teams, but often enough I don’t get them up and still win lol.

EVs are stolen out of the analysis lol.



I'm not done yet >:[

Team Building

I didn't start off with any sub user. I did start off with Roserade, due to her ability to set up Toxic Spikes and create free turns for our sub users.



My next choice was probably the easiest one. I wanted something that can a) defeat Lead Jirachi who annoys Roserade and b) cover it's weaks. Heatran anybody?



I knew I'd have to add a spin block. I also knew I wanted to use Rotom-a due to it's great ability of abusing Substitutes + TSpikes. Rotom-a also covers Heatrans weaks well, as does Heatran with Rotoms weaks. Major plus 8)



Another thing I knew was that I really really wanted Wish-Support. And really, who does that better than Vaporeon on this kind of team lol. I also needed Vaporeon to cover my huge Infernape and Gyarados weakness. And it gives me that handy Grass/Fire/Water core to work with.



The core stands. What immediately sprung to mind was my huge weakness to Dragon types, be it Salamence, Kingdra or Latias. Also I saw some problems with Gengar, so Choice Band Scizor seemed like a great fit.



Up to this point, building this team was really easy. Now the hard part came... I really have a solid core there, not really many weaknesses.... probably Lucario. Oh, and I lack SR. Gliscor w/ Taunt also really makes good use of the Toxic Spikes I guess =)



Time to playtest! I felt like having a really good team there. But then.......
Latias used Hidden Power. Scizor lost 100% of it's health.
6-0ed by something sucks. Hard. I really needed another check for Latias. Also I had less probs with Luce than I thought and Gliscor was dead weight most of the time. I don't know how long it took me, but it felt like ages, until I found Metagross to be good for this team... So we were done.



Outro

This is probably the team I enjoyed most in a long, long while. It's based on a decent strategy, works out well and still has some creative points. I feel that Metagross is the weak link, but I really don't know how to replace it, so help me there lol. Well, I'd really appreciate any constructive critique (constructive is the opposite of destructive btw) but not something like "cool team dude" or "this team sucks my blastoise would defeat it", I want suggestions to improve this team.

Credits

DarkLucario. He really helped me with the team so I'm gonna thank him first :x
Vashta, who inspired me to build this team by posting his.
aragornbird for the sprites.
pokedream for the smaller sprites.
eh, if i forgot someone, post it.
 
Stole this from Vashta :x

Threat List:


Defensive Threats

Blissey: Somewhat tough if TSpikes aren't up, but as Blissey is most likely seen on defensive teams it's not hard to set up TSpikes. Metagross can set up SR and smash some Meteor Mashes or even blow up, Scizor has Superpower to OHKO.

Bronzong: Heatran can switch in on SR/Gyro Ball and set up a sub. Vaporeon can outlast Bronzong, Scizor takes close to nothing of Gyro Ball and can U-Turn for huge damage. I think that Metagross can defeat it with a raise, but I'm not sure. No problem at all.

Celebi: Usually Roserade is my first switch to take any Thunder Waves. Heatran and Rotom can set up their Subs easily on most Celebis, Metagross uses SR on it and can eventually blow up. Vaporeon can outlast Cele with 2 layers of Toxic Spikes. Scizor wouldn't like HP Fire I guess.

Cresselia: Scizor is safe with U-Turn and Pursuit. Metagross can set-up rocks and blow up, not killing though. Rotom can set up a sub if Cress lacks Psychic or go for the straight 2HKO.

Donphan: Rotom to block spins. Hydro Pump also hurts. Vaporeon can easily deal with it. Choice Band with some predictions is scary.... but lol.

Dusknoir: I'm somewhat paranoid about EQ <_< Most of the time Heatran comes in, sets up a Sub, outlasts with Toxic Spikes. Anything else can outlast it as well (minus Scizor, I really don't want it to take a Fire Punch lol)

Forretress: IPL-Forry is kinda bitchy, as Rotom can hardly beat it. If I think it runs Payback Heatran is pretty sure to get up a Sub. If no Payback, Rotom is safe.

Gliscor: Vaporeon, Rotom, Roserade I guess. Kinda annoying as I always face Toxic/Taunt/Roost Gliscor which uses to predict my Vappy switch.

Gyarados: ResTalk Gyara means a free sub for Rotom. Vaporeon is safe as well.

Hippowdon: Roserade, Rotom, Vaporeon can all do shitloads of damage.

Jirachi: ScarfJirachi seems to give my Heatrans free turns or a Scarf. SubCM fails against Meta. And those MixJiras are dealt with by Heatran or Rotom.
Rotom-A: Somewhat troublesome. Depends really on what I expect it to do. Most of the time Roserade does just well. If I see WoW or Overheat coming, Heatran does well. Scarfers get trapped by Scizor, Sub is a whore. If my Rotom can outpace I'm fine :x

Skarmory: Rotom-w, Heatran.... Skarmory basically means free substitutes.

Snorlax: Snorlax used Curse. Yea, gg... possibly the biggest threat to this team. Curselax is one of 2 special walls commonly carrying Rest. Combined with Curse I'm in trouble. Scizor can use Superpower to weaken it after a curse, Metagross can blow up.... my options are limited.

Suicune: Roserade's STAB Leaf Storm can beast this thing, even after a boost standard CroCune takes like 80%. Rotom is like my second real option. If all of this fails, Metagross can use

Swampert: Roserade has a Grass STAB, Vaporeon easily deals with Swampert, Rotom does do decent as well.

Tentacruel: Haven't faced one yet. Luckily I guess..... Stallteams featuring Tentacruel could be a nightmare to take out.


Tyranitar: AAAAAAAH Cursetar. Another arch nemesis of this team =( It's not CurseTar itself. It's CurseTar + Rotom + Gliscor or something basic like this. I always lose to teams packing Cursetar and can do nothing against it. HALP.


Vaporeon: Roserade Leadstorm, Rotom free sub, Vaporeon if TSpikes are up.

Zapdos: Annoying due to the TS resist. Really annoying. Roserade can sleep it, but most players are smart enough to prevent this. Usually I switch in Rotom and hope for TBolt to paralyse/SBall to drop his SDef.



Offensive Threats:

Azelf - Leads commonly forgo Taunt (no idea why) so I can sleep. Otherwise they probably have to take a Leaf Storm and a Scizors Bullet Punch.

Breloom - I let something fall asleep, switch Rotom into the sub and laugh while they try to leech seed me.

Dragonite - Metagross + Prediction imo. Pretty hard to take on, but luckily nobody uses this.

Dugtrio - lol. Vaporeon/Scizor/ whatever

Electivire - Rotom.

Gengar - Scizor! Metagross is another decent option. Rarely a problem, as Vaporeon can also take a hit and dish out a hard one.

Gyarados - Vaporeon. Metagross works as well.

Heatran - Vaporeon, Choiced Trans are guaranteed to give me a free sub.

Heracross - Rotom + Prediction. Metagross can take non-banded hits easily.

Infernape
- Vaporeon, Scizor can revenge kill at 40%.

Jolteon - Better hope Roserade is alive and my steels are at good health. This things a night mare in the late game, especially LO-Jolt w/ Charge Beam (screw the one who popularized it!!)


Kingdra - Metagross and Scizor do kinda well, Vaporeon can take the hits as well and pass some Wishes off to Metagross. Troublesome though.

Lucario - Metagross lives through +2 Close Combat, Rotom is faster than adamant Luce. Also this simply doesn't set up easily.

Machamp - SubChamp? Fuck. With Rotom being my only Fighting resist, this means trouble as long as it has Payback.


Magnezone - Kinda annoyin as well, but Rotom can usually scare it off. Sometimes they switch in on Metagross...... foolish guys. Simply foolish.

Mamoswine - Rotom and Scizor are good checks.

Metagross - Rotom, own Metagross, Heatran if needed. Roserade can sleep LeadGross, as I rarely ever see Lum Berry.

Porygon-Z Rotom, Scizor or Metagross...

Salamence - Tbh, this doesn't trouble me at all. Scizor does well, Metagross does well. If I catch it with Heatran, cool. Vaporeon takes on Mixmence as long as it doesn't switch into it lol

Scizor - Heatran. Or Rotom. metagross works as well. :S

Starmie - Life Orb variants are uncool. Sac something, pursuit with Scizor.

Suicune - Roserade's Leaf Storm, Rotom can try it's best. Offensive Cune loses to Vaporeon if TSpikes are up.

Togekiss - Bring in Metagross first to take the TWave, then set-up SR. If he stays in, go to Rotom and Sub!

Tyranitar - Metagross, Scizor to revenge Babiri Versions (Meteor Mash should've broken the berry). Usually can't come out without a scratch, as everything has something SE.

Weavile - Metagross, Scizor, even Vaporeon.

Yanmega - Rotom usually comes out on top, as does Scizor. If needed Metagross takes a hit.

Zapdos - Again this thing is threatening...
 
Hey, I really liked this team! Sunday Tour anybody?
This team looks like one of those types that takes a shitload of time improving it, since it's pretty damn good. Something I saw immediatley was the 252 EV's in HP for Scizor. Max HP gives Scizor minimum switch ins on SR (this was said in so many places, including the first paragraph of the analysis :P), so 248 is required. You don't want your HP to be divisible by 8, don't you?
This is actually the thread that explains it way better then I do:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53818

I'll need some time to find something else to point out. It's just that well build. I did see the HP loss a problem in the tour, so an improvment in the wish-passing department should be needed in my opinion.
 
Since one of your problems is the constant 25% loss and the theme is substitute, why not try a subseeder? I was surprised to not see one here.
 
After my post, I've been running some calculations for Reflect+Recover+Surf (hopefully not HP Fire. I don't want overkill :P) Latias with her defensive CM spread (128 HP) against your Scizor and Metagross. Here are the results:

Metagross Meteor Mash vs Latias (+Reflect):
306 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (100 Base Power): 76 - 91 (22.82% - 27.33%)
CB Scizor Pursuit vs Latias (+Reflect):
591 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (60 Base Power): 118 - 140 (35.44% - 42.04%)
CB Scizor U-Turn vs Latias (+Reflect):
591 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (70 Base Power): 206 - 246 (61.86% - 73.87%)
Metagross Explosion vs Latias (+Reflect):
306 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (500 Base Power): 254 - 299 (76.28% - 89.79%)
CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs Latias (+Reflect):
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (60 Base Power): 58 - 70 (17.42% - 21.02%)
Latias Surf vs Metagross:
288 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (95 Base Power): 91 - 108 (25.00% - 29.67%)
Latias Surf vs Scizor:
288 Atk vs 197 Def & 344 HP (95 Base Power): 100 - 118 (29.07% - 34.30%)
After the long list of calculations, I can say that:

1) Reflect Latias with Surf can Beat Metagross one on one
2) Explosion from Metagross can't even KO latias with Reflect
3) Even a combination of Explosion and Bullet Punch will likely fail to KO Latias under Reflect with no Sandstorm.
4) Even if Scizor chooses to U-Turn out of Latias after Reflect, Latias can Recover on the switch in back to Scizor and then alternate between Recover and Surf to eventually win against Scizor.

Conclusion: Your team fails to stop this Latias. A better counter should be used in place of Metagross.

Phew, that was long as hell.
 
Lol right when I am building what should be most powerful team a team Roserade+Heatran+Rotom Form combo with Scizor pops up x_x.

Anyways this team seems pretty solid but there one thing you could try testing.

Your team can benefit from having some Stealth Rock support, Stealth Rock reduces the amount of times shit like Salamence switches in and out and is overall a great move to have, I recommend Heatran holds this move over Substitute, or you could give it to gross over explosion or something.

I will probably look at the team later but that is tee only thing I can think at the moment, sorry.
 
I actually agree with Bad Ass, Venomoth is superior unless you're concerned about Swampert leads. I prefer a Hidden Power type over U-turn though for Scizor or Heatran.

This team is weak to Infernape. Not MixApe really, but more so Nasty Plot and Swords Dance versions. All your Pokemon are swiftly OHKOed, bar Vaporeon who takes like 65%-75% from Grass Knot. A well made team will surely at least weaken Vaporeon before bringing Infernape out to sweep, so it's not a very good counter. Metagross is OHKOed 79% of the time after Stealth Rock from a +2 Fire Punch, again not a good counter. After a Swords Dance, Close Combat will OHKO Vaporeon, and a Nasty Plotted Focus Blast will OHKO Vaporeon although I don't think Focus Blast is very common.

For this reason alone you should give Scizor Quick Attack over Pursuit I'd say. Or over Superpower if you need Pursuit, as I believe boosting Infernape is more common than Clefable. Infernape sweeping you may be a rare occasion though because of Toxic spikes, however they aren't very hard to get rid of or simply prevent. Currently, Roserade could get flinched by the foe's lead, something could spin the TS away, or a Tentacruel or another Posion-type could be brought in later in the game to get rid of them.

You could try a Salac Berry instead of Leftovers on Heatran since you aren't using a status move. You can also feign a Choice Scarf which can be helpful too.

Another thing I suggest is Charge Beam on Rotom-W instead of one of your attacking moves (probably Thunderbolt). The cool thing about Charge Beam and Rotom-W is you have Hydro Pump for Tyranitar, which is the only thing I ever have lots of trouble with when using the boosting sweeper.

Good luck!
 
Scizors EV stuff: oops, changed :x

SubSeeding: I really would've used one. But where? Really, there's a problem including one on this team.

Blue_Tornado: Luckily I haven't faced any Reflect Latias' yet, but they potencially could be dangerous. But Metagross takes those Surfs all day and getting an ATK raise ruins your calcs ;) What your post lack is that "better Latias counter"... thanks though :x

Unholy Calamity: sorry lol. And I do have SR on Metagross ;)

MetaNite: That's it. Roserade's higher damage output, it easily defeating Swampert and the ability to take on bulky waters is what makes her better on my team. Still, I'll possibly test Venomoth (where's BA's post? :O). I never actually had problems with Infernape. I usually try to play careful around it, and when at least one layer of TSpikes are up, I can sacrifice something (most likely Roserade) and bring in Vaporeon for sure. On SD-Variants it's the same. Sacrifice something for the defense drop due to Close Combat and bring in Scizor to Bullet Punch. I used to run Quick Attack but Snorlax really IS a whore to this team.
Im not sure about Salac Berry. I had Expert Belt there for a while and was utterly pissed off by really losing 25% for nothing, should Latias come in. I'll rather stick with those Leftovers. One the one hand boosting Rotom sounds like fun, but on the other hand I'm not sure... Without TBolt, I'll lack the ability to 2HKO Scizor and Metagross. I'd rather run it over Hydro Pump, as it's the move I've used the lessest. I'll try it. Thanks for that (pretty long and pretty good) rate ;)

Gonna add the threatlist later today.
 

Setsuna

Prototype
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Excellent team!, I have faced it a couple of times and one of them with an epic ending, you will probably remember it: Rotom-W vs SubZapdos, struggle battle. I am Setsuna F. Seiei in the Shoddy btw).

I think there isn't to much to add to the posted comments, but I would suggest you to consider HP Fire in Roserade so you will hit hardly Scizors mainly, ice/grass & steel types at the same time, keep it in mind ;)
Also you can try Quick Attack instead of Pursuit in Scizor so you will really appreciate it when you face bugs like Infernape, Starmie sometimes and other staff. But if you are going to use it do not replace it for Superpower as it is a wonderful and important move in every Scizor.
I almost forgot it, think about use some of those HP EVs in the speed, just the enough to outspeed Vaporeon which is a common change against weakes Scizors.

I would do Vaporeon more bulkier than the current one: the same Def EVs but improving the SpD too.

This is all.
 
I had this idea after my last post, but it was too late for me to get anywhere near my computer, so I waited untill today:
Continuing on from my last post:

This may mess up your sync a bit, but I think this will be great for your team:

Blissey > Vaporeon
Gyarados > Metagross

In-depth:

Blissey @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Wish
-Protect/Stealth Rock
-Toxic/Thunder Wave/Stealth Rock
-Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Seismic Toss

Standard WishBliss, but with more options that fit your team. Blissey has SR, and nobody ever abuses it much. She can easily be your SR'er if you find the right moveslot to give up for it =/
Toxic is standard, and Thunder Wave can be good too, as both mess up non-Refresh-Latias and eliminate her as a threat. Blissey is your best choice for a Latias counter, without giving up on wish. You can always try the new Umbreon though 8)
The move of choice is up to you. No need to explain what each is good for.

So, we covered Latias completley without eliminating Wish support. But, we now have a MixApe problem and a bigger problem to Lucario. What can we do?

Gyarados @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spe
Nature: Impish
-Waterfall
-Roar
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Lately I've been using this set a lot, as it's so usable in the current metagame.
LO Adamant Lucario's +2 -1 Extreemespeed does around 40%, allowing you to easily beat it one-on-one. Many Lucario Stay in after the switch in to Gyarados, as they think they can take him on, but don't realize that he's running max Defence, as you nail it into the 20% zone after Waterfall and LO, ruining any sweeping chance, as you can stall it out from there.
LO Infernape's GK does about the same, allowing you to do the same as against Lucario. With this set you have a phazer in your team, and a secondary counter to Scizor too.
Gyarados is mostly a check to your worst nightmares in this team if you do use Blissey.

So, we have Wish support, Roar support, SR support, a Phisical and Special Wall, another Counter to Scizor (which is always a pleasure to have) counters to Lucario, MixApe & Latias AND still have the Grass-Fire-Water core. This'll be a very solid change, that in my opinion, will only bring benefit to your team.

The only problem I see with this change is a weakness to DD Gyarados with SE, but aside from that, you're safe.
 

Setsuna

Prototype
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That Gyarados matches so well in this team... good job Blue_Tornado. Actually I was thinking about him but with a different moveset, a substitute one, another to explode but this one is really great here.
An excelent version countering Lucarios and Infernapes (except the one who carries Thunderpunch) that is a minority anyway.

Blissey of course it can does a great use of SR due to the quantity of free switchins that she has and the team still has a Wisher in their trops.
Blissey is not a Gyarados counter so that is why she never uses T-bolt and in this set I'd try:
-Wish
-SR
-Thunderwave / Protect / Softboiled
-Seismic Toss / Ice Beam

Yeah two moves to recover yourself if you get trapped in a low level of HP.
Then, Seismic Toss would be to break CM Jirachi Substitutes and also Heatran ones.

With this two changes the sinergy becomes almost unbreakeable.

PS: I was also considering CM SubJirachi in someplace but is hard to insert, I will post if I find the way.
 
Pain_Rikudou: I do remember the game, but I'm pretty sure I used a different but similar team ;) I used to run HP Fire on Roserade, but really, I don't care about Scizor. Scizor just means free substitutes lol. Scizor needs 5 moves - I just need Superpower more than Quick Attack, as the only thing that stresses me is SDNape, and SDNape has not really many chances to set up. I don't really need to outpace Vaporeon, as it simply Wishes and Protects most of the time to nullify the U-Turn damage, so I rather lose the speed tie against other Scizors and come out on top. On Vaporeon I could shift 68 EVs into SDef, this would probably help against PlotNape. Thanks ;)

Blue_Tornado: TBH, Blissey just doesn't fit my style of play. When forgoing Protect Blissey will die way to soon, without SR I fail against Mence, and with one attack move Blissey is set-up bait. I tested BulkyDos over Scizor for a while, but it also did close to nothing. Also after using ResTalkDos for a while I realized that it kinda sucks without spin support. It's also not really true that I have Lucario issues (you say I get them with removing Metagross and Vaporeon). Lucario doesn't get in with a decent amount of damage and Rotom outpaces adamant Luce (so I guess jolly Crunch Lucario means trouble). I think that Latias weak is a paper weak in general with having 2 steeltypes. Sorry, but I don't think this suggestions are making this team any better =/ thanks tho
 

vashta

"It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey PurpleWeezing; presented to me is a well-constructed team that you have made - your status on the standard leaderboard and other places obviously confirms this... congratulations on the success with with team. =)

One of the most worrying threats I see when looking at this team is the common threat of Swords Dance Lucario. Now, what allows this to be a threat is the fact that any good user of a Swords Dance Lucario-based Team will have a Pursuit weakness in the form of one Pokémon - your Scizor could Pursuit this giving it a free setup turn for Lucario. From here, Lucario will go to 6-0 you most likely if it comes out at late-game. Your best counter to it is Metagross who takes a maximum of 94.13% and a minimum of 80.22% from Close Combat, meaning if it does maximum damage, it will die after Stealth Rock damage. Your only hope is to revenge kill with Scizor after Lucario has taken 3 successive Life Orb recoils and a Close Combat drop... after Stealth Rock, of course, and assuming maximum damage. Most smart users would also pair Lucario with a Choice Band Pursuiter (Tyranitar, but Scizor in particular with high SpD) to deal with Rotom-W in the first place. Now, I believe that though you once had Gliscor, reinstating it could be an idea, but maybe it is not the best way to go about things for reasons you have already highlighted. You could always opt to use Reflect on Metagross over Stealth Rock, and give Heatran Stealth Rock with Shuca Berry > Substitute. I dunno; this just helps dampen any damage that could occur assuming Metagross gets the Reflect out earlier than Lucario gets to set up with Swords Dance. Aside from that, you could also opt to use Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W, just in case a user isn't (For whatever reason) using a Pursuiter. Most Lucario's that run Crunch are Adamant (I would like to know why you'd use Crunch on a Jolly Lucario otherwise).

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 196 SpA / 210 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Charge Beam / Thunderbolt

I would recommend this Rotom-W set for the reason that it cripples Lucario to the extent that if it did attempt to get a Swords Dance and sweep, you could switch Rotom-w into a Close Combat and use Will-O-Wisp which immediately eliminates it as a threat. This hurts Machamp users also who may try to Payback Rotom-W (a lot of people do this lol). Having this status move could also cause problems with opposing Zapdos with Life Orb in particular - 12% + 25% from Stealth Rock will slow them down allowing you to have the time needed to deal with them effectively, to some extent. You may have noticed I slashed Charge Beam as a priority. This was for the reason that Rotom-W is capable of stalling out many Pokémon under its Substitute, but why limit its potential attacking power in the meantime? I believe that utilizing Charge Beam will allow Rotom-W's ability to set up on certain Pokémon to be used at its full potential (especially against those Pokémon such as Metagross (who are immune to Toxic Spikes in particular)) - this follows the flow of your concept of abusing Toxic Spikes. The EVs allow 4 Substitutes to be made, and leave some HP afterwards for obvious reasons; they ensure that a Substitute is only broken 6.25% times by Blissey's Flamethrower making it more efficient for you against stall teams where Blissey is usually the best threat a stall team can boast to Rotom-W. The Speed allows you to outspeed Adamant Lucario, Jolly Mamoswine that run 280 Speed, etcetera. The rest are dumped into SpA.

With regards to your apparent weakness to Swords Dance Infernape and the possible move of Quick Attack > Pursuit, I think that would be the most viable thing you could do if you do think Quick attack is useful enough to be included within this team; Lucario will no longer have a easy switch-in if you opt to use something [Quick attack] > Pursuit. Though the lack of a trapper can hurt. =|

edit: now I think about it, using Gliscor may not be such a bad idea if you think properly about Latias with Hidden Power Fire... warring it down is probably the best thing you could do then bringing Scizor in, obviously. Hmm I just don't understand why you wouldn't do that in the first place. Maybe the following set?

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA) or Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Roost

I know Earthquake slows down your ability to deal with Lucario, but I reckon that you could stall it out with Taunt + Roost. This helps with stopping CurseTyranitar from setting up also, and you can easily switch out through U-turn dealing some damage, and then going to Scizor.

Just a few things to consider, though I am a bit tired. :x

thanks.
 
Thanks, I really appreciate this vashta ;) Onto your rate now. When reading your post, I slowly planned to change the team a bit. I think I'll keep the Rotom the way it is, as I really loved the set and as adding Gliscor would remove my problems with Luce anyways. So there's still HP Fire Latias. I thought about slapping Toxic on Vaporeon to at least weaken Latias to the point Scizor finishes it off (outstalling it with Heatran would be possible as well w/o Surf). This would make me pretty weak to TauntDos, but I guess that acceptable. Gliscor would also give me the option to beat CurseLax (by simply Taunting it as it wants to Rest, Toxic Spikes go!) and possibly even CurseTar. I'll keep Pursuit on Scizor as otherwise SpecsLatias will slowly rape me. I'll test some of this stuff. Thanks! Keep the rates coming guys ^_~
 
You asked me to rate your team so that's what I am here to do!

The previously mentioned Swords Dance Lucario is evidently annoying, avoiding Toxic Spikes and powering through the team late-game.

I really like the idea of running a Wish Salamence with Earthquake to help against Lucario (hitting 308 Speed and some bulk), probably over Vaporeon, also carrying general good synergy with this team. However, this leaves you much weaker to Gyarados and Hidden Power Ice Infernape, so I'll let that idea slide away.

There are a few options. Jirachi can use Stealth Rock / Iron Head / Fire Punch / Wish and can be EVed to help outspeed Lucario and hurt it a fair amount with Fire Punch, while still having a fair amount of bulk (albeit, not as much as Metagross whom it would replace). Wish supports the team more though, and could potentially allow Starmie to be used over Vaporeon.

If you are willing to sacrifice Wish, Celebi & Hitmontop would fit this team damn well over Vaporeon and Metagross. Celebi can Perish Song / Stealth Rock / Recover / Grass Knot (or run some kind of SubSeed set), while Hitmontop checks Tyranitar. If running "TechniTop" (which I suggest as it keeps the team offensive, and helps a bit more in general) 132 HP / 200 Atk / 176 Def with Adamant, Technician, and Life Orb is perfect. Hitting 276 Attack OHKOes Lucario and Tyranitar with Mach Punch after Stealth Rock damage. Fake Out & Mach Punch won't KO Infernape (quite), but does at least 74%~ (maximising at 88%~). However, this does not take into account potential Stealth Rock / Life Orb / Toxic damage...Fake Out obviously works well with Toxic Spikes - the extra turn is lovely and the damage helps Hitmontop get some extra KOs. The 132 HP / 176 Def is the best defensive EV spread (if you are running max Def). A +2 Adamant Lucario's ExtremeSpeed fails to OHKO so it can't get clever outspeeding Mach Punch. Unfortunately Close Combat + ExtremeSpeed will, but I know you are an experienced enough player to play around it so you don't come in on Close Combat! Heck, if you have to be ridiculously careful (ie. you know Hitmontop can sweep the rest of their team) you can just switch in something like Heatran or Rotom, threatening it so it has to KO you. At that point you should be able to bring in Hitmontop and finish it off.

I'd also like to point out Hitmontop has the additional ability of cleaning up late-game. Your team is designated around Substitute & Toxic Spikes which obviously wears a lot down a fair amount. Hitmontop is able to come in on these weakened threats and pick them off one by one, which is why I love it! I would note Hitmontop won't like taking CB Stone Edges from Tyranitar though, but can take on average survives two with over 10% HP left (for two attacks). You need to play Hitmontop wisely to be honest (which I'm sure you can do!). Hitmontop helps against annoying Life Orb Jolteon too who you have listed as a huge threat - it can wear it down so it has far more limited chances to attack. You can also play the whole "switch out, switch in, Fake Out, switch out, switch in, Fake Out.." game with it. :)

Anyway, I've tried to think more about synergy with this team and as I re-read this I really do like the Celebi & Hitmontop idea. Hitmontop just looks like it would fit this team so perfectly. I hope you enjoyed the rate you asked for mate. ;P

/edit: Something I forgot to say earlier...this team is really well built. It's hard making changes to it without changing the synergy of the team. It truly is a good team (as I found out yesterday). 5 stars, well presented.
 
Hmmm good team. It's good at what it does but has some weaknesses (special walls that can recover Snorlax, Latias, Tyranitar) ie like almost every other team everyone uses just kill the f'n Scizor and they lose since a defensive Metagross can't really take advantage of them.

Couple of weaks to a couple of fast sweepers like Luke and SD Ape Jolteon etc. but overall its a good team with a good concept and not surprising you would crush the ladder with a team like this since people on the ladder generally get destroyed by teams like this. I just feel against better players because you have so many little weaknesses (which I'm sure the rest of the people are helping you with) a better player will bound to have one of them which they can use to pick on your team since there are quite a few pokes that shut down half your team like Zapdos. I'll take a closer look and give you a better rate later PW! :D
 
My first instinct as it is for every team is to use Scarf Rachi over Metagross. Covers your bulky set up sweeper problem with Trick (and if they switch you didn't blow up on something useless like with Gross), Takes care of Curse Tar, Snorlax, Latias, Luke, Can Flinch Jolteon and Ape etc...and can take down Zapdos of course all these in a pinch. However you need Stealth Rock though Trick, Iron Head, Fire Punch, Stealth Rock isn't that terrible though I prefer to have Ice Punch somewhere on it eh Iron Head and Scizor is enough Salamence protection. Eh. Try that and see what you think. It seems to accomplish what your gross wants to do but covers a few more things.
 
I tested like everything you guys suggested minus SubTar, which I'll test later (pretty cool idea as sand also whittles down annoying opposing threats.
Onto the rates...:

Vashta: I tested it with Gliscor again and once again, Gliscor was dead weight. I ran Rotom with Charge Beam for like 2 games and always missed TBolt. Quick Attack went on Scizor over Superpower for now.

Twash: I really loved your suggestion as I'm a huge TechniTop fanboy :X I tested this a lot more than Gliscor. Pretty soon I found out that sticking the SR onto Heatran and keeping Vaporeon instead of Celebi was better for the team. One point was dead weight into late game most of the time - Hitmontop. And even than I had problems with cleaning due to Rotoms. As much as I liked it I didn't keep Hitmontop. But I did keep the rocks on Heatran. Thanks for the (long and well thought-out) rate.

JLei: ScarfJira seemed very plausible to me and as I kept using SRTran I could even go with Trick/FP/IP/Iron Head. As I started using it I realized that it's good, but that ScarfMeta is just as good for this team. With Metagross I'd have 2 weapons against CroCune etc. The more I think about it the more I like it :o Well, thanks dude ^_^

Will test TTar later, possible even ScarfTar
 

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