Scouting is a skill, and you're suggesting that we entirely remove that skill from singles.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Koko wouldn't be banned, would it be obnoxious and get valiant and moth banned potentially? Yeah. Would it itself be overpowered? No.
Lele will absolutely be banned until tera goes though.
Good thing Fini gets defog naturally, this Mon would be huge if it comes back
Assuming it is added, which we have no clue...
Koko main possible issue in the tier will be enabling Moth, Valiant and the likes.
The Regieleki was in another whole power level thansk to its God speed and raw power (doesnt rely on terrain and can run modest and still outspeed almost anything).
Also, its tricky but i feel like Iron valiant and Moth should be banned before Koko is.
Koko main possible issue in the tier will be enabling Moth, Valiant and the likes.
The Regieleki was in another whole power level thansk to its God speed and raw power (doesnt rely on terrain and can run modest and still outspeed almost anything).
Also, its tricky but i feel like Iron valiant and Moth should be banned before Koko is.
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Now, I would like to say something about this. Nat Dex UU, ran a similar vote and while it was close tera actually did get banned there.
And I will say even if the majority of the playerbase wants tera to stay in some form, I see a lot of higher gxe/ladder players getting sick of it being here, unlike the previous suspect where tera was still new, so don't be surprised if they end up being the ones who got tera banned, because the last vote was very close. 59% is still a majority, and only 1% away from a supermajority.
And a lot of the higher gxe/ladder players who voted no ban before are starting to gravitate towards ban as of late, so things are definitely different in this current enviroment than in the starter gen, opinions have changed is my point
In older far less powercrept generations this might be true, but today in extremely powercrept generation it’s more akin to Pick-a-Door levels you find in Mario Maker. Playing Gen 3 and trying to figure out if Zapdos is defensive, offensive, what moves it has, what hidden power its running, etc. is a lot different from finding out whether Manaphy is using Tail Glow set or Take Heart set. More often it’s a 50/50 with life or death on the line and it’s there to high cheeky win conditions. Sometimes scouting isn’t actually possible unless you consider finding out you just lost as “scouting”.
Meowscarda? could you refer me to what 5 viable tera types Meowscarda has? also most viable/top tier teras share no/a weakness(es) with their base typing's, requiring different answers and now that your opponent know you know their tera, and that you could switch out to a answer that checks it with tera... only to get walled from the mon usually when not tera'd, disregarding the mind games is it not teras fault that they can totally flip their counters? kingambit without tera gets absolutely destroyed by a decent fighting type.
The second tera suspect is the final tera suspect which means the final chance to get it banned if the anti-tera people don't get it banned in the next suspect it's permanently in the tier no more opportunities to get it banned.
That was supposed to be the joke, testing Shedinja in SV OU would be pointless since either option, like a vote on revealed tera the game would be played mostly the same regardless of the outcome.
Bax and Sneasler were already questionable presences in the meta prior to DLC1 due to how individually threatening they were. Bax got a direct buff in Scale Shot and didn't need A-Tales, and you could argue they were problematic separately. Sneasler benefitted very heavily from Rillaboom, of course, but Rilla hasn't enabled anything else in the same way.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
If they dexit 9th gen OU in gen 10, there is a chance.
I feel like its mostly just the meta Ttar got itself in. It thrived in Gen 8 due to the slower nature of the tier encouraging wallbreakers like Ttar. Plus it had defensive utility in checking Specs Pult, Zapdos, and Blace.
Gen 9 on the other hand is just a blitz of uncontrolled energy. Four top mons in Tusk, Ting-Lu, Valiant, and Gambit wall its STAB combination and easily threatened it back. The top ghost in the tier could hit it SE (Gholdengo) and Spikes are incredibly volatile in the tier, cutting down its bulk. Defensively, Garg was superior to it in every way, it faced competition with Gambit and Moon for offensive Dark Types. It was also a terrible Tera user since it was stuck with Rock/Ground/Steel or it dies to its own sand. Easily preventable if they just made Sand setters immune to sand. It’s no wonder it dropped to RU. The former king has lost its throne and is unwelcome in his kingdom. Ttar is no more, or is he?
While not now cause the meta is gonna be over in a week, I feel Ttar will eventually make a resurgence in the tier, the meta trends lately have been favoring it. The new addition of Knock is a godsend to its kit, not only being a stronger Crunch, but also crippling its checks which otherwise completely wall it. None of them have reliable recovery, so that plus sand chip will wear them down and let it do its duty as a wallbreaker. This is without mentioning the sand chip which also breaks Dnite’s Multiscale in a pinch.
The recent bans of Gliscor, Moon, and Sneasler have helped Ttar in different ways. The former being a Knock absorber that also made spikes harder to remove, the middle being competition, and the latter being an offensive threat that OHKOd Ttar. It’s range of mons it can check is also wider than in Pre-Home. Zapdos, Tran, and Moth have risen in popularity and Ttar serves as a solid check to them, differentiating itself from its main competition Gambit, who Ttar can outspeed with Ada and one-shot with Low Kick while not caring about Sucker. Even if it is Tera Flying, Ttar will just Stone Edge it anyways. So if your Ttar is still alive and your checks are dead to Gambit in a lategame scenario, hit dat mfer.
It also synergizes excellently with top mons. Tusk, Zapdos, Rilla, and Glowking all appreciate what it brings to the table while either helping it come in through pivoting or aid in its longevity which is the case for Tusk removing hazards and Rilla providing Terrain.
If Drill comes back, I believe he will eventually be able to continue his streak of being OU at the end of every generation.
honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with the metagame we have today. It took many, MANY suspects and bans, but I think we got ourselves a pretty nice and engaging meta in the end. By no means perfect, and there's still threats that should've been adressed had we had the time to do so, but this moment right now, like pre-Home, feels pretty well balanced and a good enough meta of its own right. I like seeing the result of all that has been done so far. Would probably give it a 7.5 for enjoyability and 7 for balance, which is a huge improvement over the score I gave in previous surveys and (even higher than the score the meta deserved right after DLC1).
Even out of the remaining problems, the only one I'm sick of seeing around is Gholdengo and Hazards (whether or not they're related); Waterpon, Manaphy and even Kingambit I think are fair enough to stay. Kingambit is a bit dubious, I'll admit, but I'm glad that he's the most broken thing we have around given the rest of the bunch.
A shame that, much like pre-Home, it's going to be a short-lived pseudo-respite before yet another hell breaks loose.
Also, while on topic, salutations to Yubel: seeing the Curse Goodra inspired me to test around with this:
Goodra-Hisui (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor (/Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast/other)
- Body Press
- Earthquake(/Knock Off/Heavy Slam/other)
- Acid Armor
Very underrated mon, I'd dare say it deserves OU status.
I prefer Acid Armor with Body Press, and would recommend using a different attack if going for Curse, but this set itself is an Work-in-Progress. EQ was there to better serve as a soft-check for Gholdengo, but between Air Balloon sets and Grassy Terrain, it feels dubious. Knock Off lacks power to crack defensive sets with Recover, though, and don't want to invest in attack. EQ also does a great job against Clod and Glowking, though, so might stick to it or consider replacing Draco Meteor.
Tera Ground is by far the most dubious part without Sap Sipper, but it fit better on the team and helped against defensive Gholdengo. Will probably change it.
The gargantuan amount of bulk this thing gets after one Acid Armor while protected by Shell Armor from Ivy Cudgel shenanigans (or just bad RNG) has allowed this to win matches simply on setting up once, and the sheer versatility of a strong special attack, defensive set-up into Body Press and EQ, as stated above, for some of the primary specially defensive sets makes this always have a role to play.
It fairs well against Waterpon, although can be shacky against Encore. EV/Nature/Moves can be fine-tuned to better handle the match-up, but this set was more looking for "check compression" rather than individual optimization. Has a chance to lose if switching into Waterpon Swords Dance, then Ivy Cudgel + Tera Ivy Cudgel, and dangerous to use Acid Armor then due to the fear of Encore. But still forces a Tera and can shoot Draco Meteor/Sludge Bomb and leave it in range to revenge killing, which I'd say is pretty good for the most disadvantageous situations against a top-threat with a non-optimized set. Draco Meteor + Body Press kills with Stealth Rock damage if they don't Tera, btw, and can be fine-tuned in EVs to kill even at full health. Sludge Bomb twice doesn't miss (very important) and can do some work against Iron Valiant and Clefable, but leaves you fully walled by Air Balloon Dengho and lack of a haymaker to click when expecting a switch but not sure into what can hurt.
I expected it to be chipped easily, but tends to force the opponent to chip themselves through switches much more. The bigger problem is the bad matchup against ubiquitious mons like Great Tusk, or Valiant if not running Sludge Bomb/Heavy Slam. Still a great fit and would recommend people to try the mon out; its stats are great to "play around", as is its movepool.
Even out of the remaining problems, the only one I'm sick of seeing around is Gholdengo and Hazards (whether or not they're related); Waterpon, Manaphy and even Kingambit I think are fair enough to stay. Kingambit is a bit dubious, I'll admit, but I'm glad that he's the most broken thing we have around given the rest of the bunch.
A shame that, much like pre-Home, it's going to be a short-lived pseudo-respite before yet another hell breaks loose.
Also, while on topic, salutations to Yubel: seeing the Curse Goodra inspired me to test around with this:
Goodra-Hisui (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor (/Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast/other)
- Body Press
- Earthquake(/Knock Off/Heavy Slam/other)
- Acid Armor
Very underrated mon, I'd dare say it deserves OU status.
I prefer Acid Armor with Body Press, and would recommend using a different attack if going for Curse, but this set itself is an Work-in-Progress. EQ was there to better serve as a soft-check for Gholdengo, but between Air Balloon sets and Grassy Terrain, it feels dubious. Knock Off lacks power to crack defensive sets with Recover, though, and don't want to invest in attack. EQ also does a great job against Clod and Glowking, though, so might stick to it or consider replacing Draco Meteor.
Tera Ground is by far the most dubious part without Sap Sipper, but it fit better on the team and helped against defensive Gholdengo. Will probably change it.
The gargantuan amount of bulk this thing gets after one Acid Armor while protected by Shell Armor from Ivy Cudgel shenanigans (or just bad RNG) has allowed this to win matches simply on setting up once, and the sheer versatility of a strong special attack, defensive set-up into Body Press and EQ, as stated above, for some of the primary specially defensive sets makes this always have a role to play.
It fairs well against Waterpon, although can be shacky against Encore. EV/Nature/Moves can be fine-tuned to better handle the match-up, but this set was more looking for "check compression" rather than individual optimization. Has a chance to lose if switching into Waterpon Swords Dance, then Ivy Cudgel + Tera Ivy Cudgel, and dangerous to use Acid Armor then due to the fear of Encore. But still forces a Tera and can shoot Draco Meteor/Sludge Bomb and leave it in range to revenge killing, which I'd say is pretty good for the most disadvantageous situations against a top-threat with a non-optimized set. Draco Meteor + Body Press kills with Stealth Rock damage if they don't Tera, btw, and can be fine-tuned in EVs to kill even at full health. Sludge Bomb twice doesn't miss (very important) and can do some work against Iron Valiant and Clefable, but leaves you fully walled by Air Balloon Dengho and lack of a haymaker to click when expecting a switch but not sure into what can hurt.
I expected it to be chipped easily, but tends to force the opponent to chip themselves through switches much more. The bigger problem is the bad matchup against ubiquitious mons like Great Tusk, or Valiant if not running Sludge Bomb/Heavy Slam. Still a great fit and would recommend people to try the mon out; its stats are great to "play around", as is its movepool.
Let's stop this comparison of VGC open team sheets to 6v6 singles open team sheets.
Let's count the base options each side has in each format. VGC is an underestimate because of single target moves and the ability to choose which target.
VGC
No tera
16 combinations of both mons moving
16 combinations of one mon switches one mon moves
2 combinations of both mons switching
Tera
32 combinations of both mons moving with one of them tera
16 combinations of one mon switches on mon teras and moves
So on turn 1 of a tera VGC match there are 82 possible choices from each side.
OU
No tera
4 moves
5 switches
Tera
4 moves
Turn 1 of tera OU there's 13 possible choices from each side.
Of course, some of the possible choices are dumb, that restriction applies to both formats. Also worth mentioning is that choices is not the same as number of outcomes.
This is where imperfect information comes in. Sure, you only have 13 options. But your opponent doesn't know what those options are. Most mons can run quite a few different sets with different moves, held items, tera types, abilities even. The lack of information is what makes singles a deep game. It expands the number of options to match what VGC can reach. Without this fog, you suddenly know what the opponent's ~3 best options are in every circumstance, and the game starts coming down to rock-paper-scissors predictions, matchup and hax. Usually if they have some sweeper that threatens your team very hard due to a bad matchup, they don't KNOW for sure that this is the case, as your team could presumably have hidden tech built in to not make the matchup as miserable as it actually is. I could keep going with this kind of example of how lack of info elevates skill.
Well designed, fun strategy games, like Chess, allow for each player to have a wealth of options available while not having TOO many options to the point that it overwhelms the brain and makes calculation too hard.
The above list is the crucial point. Because VGC has a higher "base option count" than singles, it shifts where the Goldilocks zone is.
Touching on Tera briefly, at this point I see arguments for no restriction and arguments for full ban. The "middle ground compromises", specifically Tera Preview, are worse than either extreme in this case for reasons articulated better by others.
TLDR: Open teamsheets would turn singles into just predictions, matchup, and hax.
Let's count the base options each side has in each format. VGC is an underestimate because of single target moves and the ability to choose which target.
VGC
No tera
16 combinations of both mons moving
16 combinations of one mon switches one mon moves
2 combinations of both mons switching
Tera
32 combinations of both mons moving with one of them tera
16 combinations of one mon switches on mon teras and moves
So on turn 1 of a tera VGC match there are 82 possible choices from each side.
OU
No tera
4 moves
5 switches
Tera
4 moves
Turn 1 of tera OU there's 13 possible choices from each side.
Of course, some of the possible choices are dumb, that restriction applies to both formats. Also worth mentioning is that choices is not the same as number of outcomes.
This is where imperfect information comes in. Sure, you only have 13 options. But your opponent doesn't know what those options are. Most mons can run quite a few different sets with different moves, held items, tera types, abilities even. The lack of information is what makes singles a deep game. It expands the number of options to match what VGC can reach. Without this fog, you suddenly know what the opponent's ~3 best options are in every circumstance, and the game starts coming down to rock-paper-scissors predictions, matchup and hax. Usually if they have some sweeper that threatens your team very hard due to a bad matchup, they don't KNOW for sure that this is the case, as your team could presumably have hidden tech built in to not make the matchup as miserable as it actually is. I could keep going with this kind of example of how lack of info elevates skill.
Well designed, fun strategy games, like Chess, allow for each player to have a wealth of options available while not having TOO many options to the point that it overwhelms the brain and makes calculation too hard.
- VGC with hidden information and Tera: too many options
- VGC with open team sheets and tera: a good amount of options
- VGC with open team sheets and no tera (hypothetical): i would bet too few options
- OU with hidden information and tera: borderline too many
- OU with hidden information no tera: a good amount of options
- OU with open team sheets: way too few options
The above list is the crucial point. Because VGC has a higher "base option count" than singles, it shifts where the Goldilocks zone is.
Touching on Tera briefly, at this point I see arguments for no restriction and arguments for full ban. The "middle ground compromises", specifically Tera Preview, are worse than either extreme in this case for reasons articulated better by others.
TLDR: Open teamsheets would turn singles into just predictions, matchup, and hax.
You know, I don’t want to dismiss the thought and skill involved with doubles, but how many possible moves you can TECHNICALLY do is not the same as how many moves that are actually realistic. If I have Flutter Mane and Dragonite (Inner Focus) out on the field, it’s safe to say my opponent isn’t going to use Fake Out. Or Protect both Pokemon at the same time when there isn‘t any field conditions. Or likely use Drain Punch or Close Combat. Etc.
But anyways, how many technical possible moves there are isn’t the important part. The important part is to not let games be decided by cheeky unexpected strategies and guessing games, usually stacked in sweepers favor. Say your opponent has a Volcarona before it was banned. You knew that it’d more than like have quiver dance, which will sweep your team if you don’t inmediately stop it. However what do you switch into it? It has plenty of checks but it’s hard to truly counter it without guessing. You have to guess between TB Ground, Water, Fairy, Giga Drain, Psychic, Hurricane, and if its even running Bug STAB or not. Its Tera could also entirely be defensive as well. And if you guessed right, you keep the battle going on, but guess wrong and you likely lose on the spot.
It’s an extreme example, but plenty more Pokemon are considered borderline or banned already. Like Manaphy, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon.
VGC has lots of rules Smogon doesn't and all of them are dogshit. I genuinely don't know why people are so fucking insistent on trying to make singles more like whatever shitshow VGC happens to be at the moment- its rules are 1. designed (if you want to call it that) for a metagame so structurally different from singles it's hard to even call them the same game and 2. poorly thought out & arbitrary.
Open team sheets does absolutely fuck all for singles the same way item clause does absolutely fuck all for singles. How about we stop suggesting to do things simply because the corpo format is doing them?
I (currently) don't have any strong feelings about Tera Preview, but I'd actually argue that a preview mechanic of any kind would work better in our BO1 format than VGC's BO3. The preview should theoretically exist to help curtail the unpredictable nature of random ladder matches, while in BO3 you will naturally obtain information about your opponent in game 1 and be able to take advantage of it without the sucker punch costing you the whole set. (Admittedly VGC is "bring 6 use 4" and that adds some wrinkles, but the point ultimately remains.)
Not saying we should implement it. Just an observation about its bizarre use in VGC.
Not saying we should implement it. Just an observation about its bizarre use in VGC.
It isn't bizarre in VGC for the reason a lot of "hidden information" tournament games make hidden information public, it's more fair. For example, Wolf is one of the best VGC players in the world, so naturally when he's playing in an event people are going to try and scout him and his team. This puts him at a disadvantage since it just means his opponents will know his team while he won't know theirs. Personally, I don't think this should happen and in large tournaments all players should be given as level a playing field as possible and in order to do this in VGC (or a trading card game), that means giving out the hidden information.
This is only true in a large tournament setting though. Part of the draw of Pokemon and card games is the hidden information game. Having sweet tech that people might not know about and catching them off guard with it is part of the fun of the game. It also rewards creativity, meta reading and is skill testing to probe and figure out what off the beaten path type strategies someone might have up their sleeve. That said, I do think it is a fair argument that tera is TOO open ended and that too often it is the case that a Pokemon will have multiple viable options and while you can narrow it down you still often end up in a situation where it's essentially a coin flip on what they have.
Managed to out stall a Cosmic Power Clefable with a Tera Poison Specially Defensive Garganacl after tanking all their Stored Powers before Teraing and making them waste all their Moonlights, then Tera-ing and proceeding to ruin the rest of their team.
We might be Garganabackl after all...
We might be Garganabackl after all...
No one really wants completely open team sheet, it's mostly the tera preview aspect that people relate to - obviously it's for a completely different reason than would be in Singles but it would still be prevalent/useful. Of course scouting is a big part of the game which is removed by team preview but it removes some of the "randomness" people have an issue wrt to Tera.
Also, the random ad-hominem complaints about VGC are funny, it's a completely different meta and what works for them works for them - but you can't deny that Tera Preview would have some positives for Smogon 6v6.
Finch has gone on record saying that he doesn’t want to do this in the office hours thread.
I don’t think this has been stated at all, as long as tera remains a contentious topic, discussions about its place in the tier are going to continue taking place.
If gholdengo gets banned do you think that rimbombee will drop?
Maybe yes, because it would be easyier to remove hazards. However, it could still be good because there aren't many hazards removers.
The 2nd dlc is in two weeks so we don't know if there will be more hazards removers, and I think Gholdengo will be banned *at least* 1 or 2 months after the dlc 2, so the metagame can change a lot, it's really hard to tell if sticky could still be good.
My bad, there is a third option option being considered/used in the second tera suspect which is banning tera blast.
They can't just continue suspecting something again and again, the thought process in waiting for the indigo disk to suspect tera is that it will be fully complete in it and nothing will be missing, thus tera wouldn't change much after Indigo disk and would be fundementally the same, and if they decided to resuspect tera, even after it got tera blast banned/no ban it would be throwing the effort of those who decided to vote blastban/no ban away.
I understand this, but the reason that the second suspect was held off until dlc2 was because dlc1 is too short of a metagame to have a stable enough environment for it to take place and properly gage the effects.
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