tera's not getting banned without a suspect and we're not holding a suspect before getting the meta to an actually balanced point this time. holding the suspect that early last time stifled the evolution of the pre-home meta and yielded questionable results due to how unbalanced things were. think of it this way: pulling the trigger too early again might result in tera being unrestricted permanently. is that what you want?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
This just reads to me that Serp is broken. But many things that are incredibly powerful (without tera) are broken with tera. Would love to just see all those mons banned.
I kinda hate this and think this is a really bad idea. Most things we banned were incredibly rough to deal with defensively. What, are we just suddenly going to be able to deal with Annihilape, Espathra or Roaring Moon now?? I can't imagine what would have to drop in dlc2 for that to be fine. Maybe if we got a 10/10 wall and Ghold got banned so defensive mons were good again we could deal with 1 mon we banned to ubers.
Last edited:
fortunately, finch also mentioned that there will "most likely" be a survey, so everyone will get the chance to voice their opinion on how bad of an idea that is before it actually happens. this way we won't have a repeat of crown tundra where they unbanned fucking naganadel and lando-i
This is the way.
i have a certain godzilla-lookalike for you....
nothing switches into grass/water/ice coverage anyway. this just means ogerpon-W is an instaban in DLC2 if it actually ends up getting triple axel since what even checks it? dondozo is forced to tera but still gets ripped apart anyway by the incoming triple axel, amoonguss hates it, nothing else stops it.....i can only pray this does not actually happen in the indigo disk
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
If we did a partial reset, here is what I would unban. For the sake of argument, I am going to assume Tera is the first major topic after DLC2 and we do not get anything super crazy for TMs like Defog.
: I feel like out of everything in the Uber tier rn, this is easily the most likely drop. Volcarona's quickban has been discussed ad nausium. I think we all know that while it would be strong, it does have genuine merit in the tier and could do a lot of good for it. Volcarona I won't delve on too much, I think its a pretty safe drop from what we would look for in a reset and the well of discussion on it has been run dry.
: I know a lot of us are scarred by base game Annihilape, but I think that even outside of the looming inevitable no good very bad Tera discourse that will make people on all sides upsetti spaghetti, we can probably agree this thing is not the beast it was in the base game. The ways the metagame has moved as the game has progressed imo have been directly against what made Annihilape as scary as it was in the first place. The meta is notably faster and has a lot more of an emphasis on hazards. Unless the hazards meta changes dramatically with a Gliscor ban, a Gholdengo ban, *and* a Defog Tutor, I doubt it will shift that much. Ape thrives off of abusing its bulk to Bulk Up so it can go for the sweep. Hazards cutting into its bulk a ton help make Ape notably easier to deal with. It also will be harder to switch in generally now, especially with Shed Tail gone and they way balance has evolved.It certainly got good pickups too.
and 
are phenomenal partners for it, and I wouldn't be shocked if it was still too much for the tier. I do think out of everything we got, this is probably the third safest drop. Yes, I think this would be a safer drop than Roaring Moon.Also if Tera takes a hit, this is imo almost as "safe" a drop as Volcarona.
: This one is moreso on principle. It's test was reasonably close and it undeniably was a mon pushed towards the edge due to Tera. Based on statements from the OU Council, Tera will get some evaluation during DLC 2. Whether this is a Tera Blast Ban, Tera on Team Preview, or what have you, we cant say. What I can say is that we probably want to drop a relatively close suspect just to see if in a meta where Tera is getting some harsh scrutiny, it would be a genuine problem still.My main reservation to dropping Moon is similar to why people were a bit upset about Chien Pao being dropped. We just had a suspect test for it, would it be productive to drop it again if not as much changed? I think this is an easier drop than Pao, but I can still see that mindset being relevant.
: This is specifically the Rapid Strike form. Darkshifu might still be a bit too spicy for the tier. This is probably the drop I am the shakiest on. SD Punching Glove is still gonna be spooky, especially backed by Tera Water. I can easily see this thing being a bit much for the tier....that being said, I can kinda see the merit in dropping it down. It was quickbanned during the primoridal soup that was the HOME meta, and things have shifted notably since then. I think that while strong, it never felt *as* overpowered as the quickbans before it. It was certainly on my radar for a supsect, but I do feel like it could have settled in and had a productive presence in the tier. It is at least a little spooky, but I would like to see how it would play with OU nowadays, especially with stuff like Waterpon running around.
: On the real, I think this is at least as safe a drop as Volcarona or a safer drop. I 100% get why Darkrai hasn't been dropped yet. The mon would be very solid just from the onset. DLC1 has already shown a ton of the cracks in Gen IX OU and dropping one more good threat in would be back breaking potentially.That being said, I don't think this thing is nearly as broken as everything else on the list save Volcarona. It's bulk is middling. In practice it ends up being about as bulky as Dragapult is.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 253-298 (79.8 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 219-258 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 250-295 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously, Calcs dont mean everything, but this thing is not going to have as easy of a time coming in as people think. It either is coming in off of a sack or almost dying. It is made even worse by Darkrai's meager defensive utility. Mono Dark isnt a great defensive type, which combined with its bulk make it a hard mon to bring in safely *and* do work.
Speaking of doing work, while Darkrai hits hard, I think it is a bit overstated how hard it hits. Darkrai only has 80 BP Dark Pulse as STAB. Life Orb also has been more or less phased out of the tier. It will hit hard, for sure. Nasty Plot and Choice Specs are one hell of a drug. But I think it is far from this destroyer of worlds people say it is in terms of wallbreaking. It also has horrible 4MSS on its Nasty Plot sets. You need Focus Blast for Kingambit and Ting Lu and Sludge Bomb for Clefable and other fairies. Even if you wanted to run Substitute or Hypnosis, you just don't have the space to run them effectively. Hypnosis is no pre nerf Dark Void to say the least.
I kinda see it a lot like Gengar in previous gens. Is it a versatile, scary threat? For sure. Its fast and it hits hard. It also has a ton of sets that I didnt even talk about. Sub Disable, Stallbreaker with wisp, Scarf, you name it. But I think with the nerfs Darkrai has taken since Gen V OU (Fairies, Life Orb Bad, Dark Void gone), the power level of the meta, and it's own problems, this would genuinely be one of the safer drops from Ubers we could do.
Last edited:
I just want to go on record by saying that this is such an awful idea it's unbelievable. There is literally no reason to drop anything from this cycle until after we've already fixed the new brokenness, other than 'new format who dis'. Doing a soft reset just drags out how long it's gonna take to get anything approaching a balanced format.
This whole generation has been 1 step forward two steps back. We make some progress in fixing the clown circus, new dlc drops and we're right back to square one. Unbans just aggravate the problem. We have no idea how the new stuff is going to affect the format, pre-emptive drops make as much sense as pre-emptive bans (read: not at all).
Last edited:
there are zero current ubers, be that initial ones or subsequently banned ones, that are deserving of a second chance or that could be balanced
I think even if there was something worth testing, it's still not a good idea. It's better for the format if we take new stuff in as small bites as possible. Throwing the whole format in a blender by unbanning in addition to new mons makes it too hard to tell what's broken and whats not. It's way better if we just take the new stuff, evaluate that, then work on unbans when we're satisfied they can be evaluated on their own merits, not in 'formats broken, ban anything we can to fix it'.
Even doing a 'mass unban day' in the middle of the format where they just unban everything after the initial wave is handled is a better idea than unbanning stuff simply because it coincides with a new format. At least the format will be a little better balanced and it'll be easier to tell if it's busted or not.
Even doing a 'mass unban day' in the middle of the format where they just unban everything after the initial wave is handled is a better idea than unbanning stuff simply because it coincides with a new format. At least the format will be a little better balanced and it'll be easier to tell if it's busted or not.
What is Tera Blast is banned? Regieleki would for sure be fine, and Volcarona and Espathra would more than likely be fine without Tera Blast.
Also I would like to point out Espathra was banned when Shed Tail was still legal, and Shed Tail was one of the biggest reasons why it was broken, so its very much likely to be fine without Tera Blast. Just thought I mention that since no one else does.
Considering how Gamefreak now started bringing back old moves and how Toxic is severely limited maybe we don't even have to worry about it at all, but at the same time, Wooper and Shroomish can learn Punch moves despite not having any arms to punch, while Kyurem can't, and also while Triple Axel in Gen 8 had only 30 mons (counting also pre-evolutions) that could learn the move, but for some reason some of the mons that could learn it were Milotic, Cryogonal, Popplio line, Froslass and... Frosmoth...
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
I wholeheartedly disagree.
The Indigo Disk is effectively from where Scarlet and Violet will be in their "complete" forms for tiering and discussion, similar to how the Crown Tundra was for Sword and Shield. Base Game, Home, and Teal Mask will be similar to RSE 200: A metagame that existed at one time but is gone just due to the march of time. It also helps that the Indigo Disk...won't be any of those. New mons, new moves, maybe even new items will be dropped. Think of how the Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra differed, even without the drops from Ubers that metagame had.
Unbanning stuff at the begining makes sense logistically. Dropping threats into the metagame artificially is going to cause a massive ripple effect. Look at Walking Wake earlier this gen. Just due to being a volatile new mon, it was a suspect candidate even after it settled in. You can see this in a lesser form with Cinderace or Greninja being dropped into the tier pre home. Any remotely good mon dropped into OU is going to cause the tier to shift. If you dropped Tapu Koko for instance in OU right now, it would cause a notable meta shift on its own. It would probably not be broken, but if you drop any A rank or above mon into the tier things will shift.
It is better for us to just drop things at the beginning and deal with them then. Let's say we drop Zamazenta Crowned again. It's stupid and dumb. We ban it then and it just ends up a minor blip on our radar. Tiering has been done much faster than in previous generations. Even if we dropped like eight mons and six of them were quickbanned in two weeks, it would not be that unproductive of an endeavor. For starters, it gives you easy data to explain why X or Y is problematic in OU. It also makes it easier to tier OU in the future. Look at this gen with Landorus Incarnate and Spectrier. Both of these mons were previously problematic in recent memory and were getting buffed. It makes sense they were on an initial banlist instead. We have enough borderline cases that it would be more useful to get that data for future gens tiering.
TLDR: DLC2 is the best time to do drops. The gen is basically starting over, it causes less of a shift later on, and it is easier to act decisively early on.
DLC2 is gonna be the last chance for y'all to get rid of Tera. Better hope that new mechanic is bullshit.
Not that I disagree, but something like Iron Bundle now has two more defensive checks in Slowking-Galar and Goodra-Hisui. Zamazenta can also revenge kill it. That is enough of a reason to test it even if it ends up being broken still.
Volcarona was also banned despite not even being on the survey at the time, which led to an outcry, and having it go through the standard process would help build goodwill for the OU council even if it still unhealthy and broken.
I am not denying this is the probable direction. I stated my preference. IMO trying to find balance first in a Tera meta game is futile. The “unbalanced” problem is Tera. You keep trying to redirect away from this. It is the chicken and the egg. If we want actually do want a balanced Gen 9 metagame, I strongly believe the four steps listed are the best route to get there.
No way in hell Iron Bundle should ever come back lol.
Volcarona should not come back as long as tera is legal. Every single reason why volcarona was justifiably quick banned is still valid - practically universal coverage, inability to be checked until you know what tera type it is, one mistake and that's your ass. Even if it had an outcry, like a week later people were like 'yeah that made sense.
Volcarona should not come back as long as tera is legal. Every single reason why volcarona was justifiably quick banned is still valid - practically universal coverage, inability to be checked until you know what tera type it is, one mistake and that's your ass. Even if it had an outcry, like a week later people were like 'yeah that made sense.
Last edited:
you keep insisting upon this without actually providing any proof
That is not what happened. The OU Council took so much flack for Volcarona's quickban that it is less liberal in throwing out quickbans now.
I agree action on Tera shouldn't be looked at until a little ways into DLC2, but it is frustrating that if it were to get banned it would cause a second large unbanning since while only a few Pokemon were very obviously broken because of Tera it was a contributing factor for a lot of other Pokemon too. Take Gli for example. While Tera isn't the thing making it over bearing, the fact that it can totally flip its defensive profile by becoming a water type to have it x4 ice and x2 water weaknesses become resistances while also making it so one of it's two new weaknesses is weak to its stab and isn't something you'd ever use until it Teras only further makes it problematic. It fundamentally changes the texture of every Pokemon in the game because it plays with a core element that all Pokemon are balanced around, their type and thanks to Tera Blast, their coverage options.
The problem with dropping things is its not worth doing unless there is a justified reason to do a drop. Would you agree that Flutter Mane is worth dropping? Probably not because there still are little to no mons that are able to tank hits that its able to throw out. Zamazenta forms were worth considering for drops and ended up dropping because the tier already has multiple pokemon that are able to handle fighting stab. If we see in the tier ample pokemon that are able to deal with one of the pokemon that we want to drop from ubers, than I would agree that its worth dropping.
Most/all of the pokemon we already banned were banned because there were not ample pokemon that were able to deal with each mon. And, looking at the powercreep that they had, I don't think we will get enough mons to justify any of them coming back besides MAYBE Roaring Moon. What we will lose is wasted time and a have bit of a clown meta trying to justify why we dropped Urshifu back into the tier. To be honest I don't see any mon being truly borderline besides roaring moon and volcarona, which is even debatable imo. We already know why most of these mons were banned and introducing more broken is not going to fix them.
Of course a lot of this changes with any restrictions/bannings we do for tera. Perhaps that is what council has in mind. Speaking of,
This is unproven and exactly what we still need to find out with tera. I wouldn't just assume a balanced tera metagame is impossible. I think we should just do everything we can to find that, and if it ends up being futile then we ban it.
After like a week they stopped taking flak for the actual choice than how they went about it. No on really argued that the format wasn't better without volc after a week. People were just upset that it got quickbanned out of the blue, not about the ban itself.
It's also a fair note to realize that if the 19th Tera type might very well decide whether or not Tera gets banned come DLC2. Precedent-wise, I wouldn't see a reason to ban the 19th tera type seldom since it's an extension of Tera as a mechanic.
I think a lot of the theorizing and what not should prob chill out, y'all gotta realize that this coming DLC will change A LOT, and unbans are totally fair game.
I think a lot of the theorizing and what not should prob chill out, y'all gotta realize that this coming DLC will change A LOT, and unbans are totally fair game.
- Status