Low Kick Ttar always 1v1's it even with vacuum wave, the only way it can kill is with earth power drop, been working fine for me.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Real post time:
I think we should drop Darkrai for OU
Why drop darkrai?
For one, offensively, its not that much better than what pokemon we already have. Currently, all of the offensive pokemon are balanced, and the ones that are Super Strong like ogerpon-hearthflame can be managed with hazards, pivots, chip and out-offensing (For example, Gliscor + Pex is a very versatile combo right now that can be paired with a lot of defensive pokemon, and with gliscor's ability to stack hazard, ogerpon will have much less opportunity to get in). Darkrai fits perfectly in the middle of speed tier and power level of the current OU mons, Fast, but not as fast as scarfers, Zamazenta, Dragon Dancers and Dragapult, Strong but not as strong as the big breakers like Ogerpon and Kingambit, its basically just a special attacking Zamazenta but with much less bulk
These are great stats, but also not too overwhelming, you can realistically check it with already good spdef mons like pex with toxic, clefable, gliscor and faster threats like scarf enamorus and zamazenta, dragapult can revenge after chip
Now i've read the responses from Srn Eeveeto and ant4456 regarding why we shouldn't drop darkrai due to calcs, and to that i say "yeah, so what?" because pokemon is much deeper than just 1 turn calcs, and if you look at the most popular teams right now (from balance to offense) they all can handle darkrai well without even trying. Take a look at these teams:
Keep in mind these are just the balance teams, i didn't even put the popular offense that can easily overwhelm darkrai like Veil, and remember, this is BEFORE Darkrai is even out so these teams aren't even trying to beat darkrai but still can handle it well, Balance can pivot around it with mons like spdef gliscor, spdef pex, fezandipiti, ting-lu and chip it slowly (just like how they do with other threats like gambit, ogerpon, etc.) HO can trade mons and be on top. So while calcs like these
Looks scary on paper, in practice it’ll be more managable similar to how we handle Walking Wake which has even scarier calcs (and i haven't even touch upon potential moveset and tera changes these pokemon can have to ruin darkrai like twave clef, knock gliscor, protect spam, tera poison, and an increase in scarf users.). Looking at some mons in the past, Mixed Iron Valiant in Home Meta looked super scary with its speed and attacks, with the right move and set its downright unwallable, but the meta managed, with changes like tera fire zamazenta, defensive gholdengo and colbur berry slowking-g, so why can't the meta adapt to darkrai? we have the tools to do it, and in fact it can even help vs some of the huge meta threats like Ogerpon and Manaphy on HO or Gholdengo Spikestack on balance. It can use many sets from nasty plot to taunt knock off to scarf, but theyre still checked by the same few pokemon like Ting-Lu, more niche ‘mons like Fezandipiti which i think is underrated, Etc. Not to mention, it really needs boots because if it runs a non boots set like choice, it will have a very hard time againts Spikestack/Bootspam balance team with Gliscor Dengo Pex. Choice item will be good too since it won’t die as quickly as Life Orb but being locked into 1 80BP dark stab i am not too worried about
Considering how:
-it struggles with hazard and status,
-can be played around with the tools available currently,
-can be out offensed with what we have currently
-can still be revenge killed relatively safely by common threats,
-can even help some Offense and Balance team play checking threats of this tier (gliscor with ice beam, manaphy with thunder, gholdengo) currently
and for those saying "What about tournaments?" We can suspect it on ladder but ban it from SPL/OST while it happens DLC2
Darkrai also has difficult time picking moveslots
Dark Pulse / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb - Most common but requires set-up as the coverage is weak unboosted. easily played around by SpDef Gliscor, Clodsire, Toxapex. Funny even Sneasler and Great Tusk naturally checks this
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Sludge Bomb - walled by Kingambit (which is big) Toxapex Tyranitar in DLC2 since sand should make comeback with Excadrill, also Tyranitar is already underrated with Knock Off now
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Psyshock - walled by WaterPon, Fairys - Clefable, Garganacl
For those looking to use a 4 attack set/Choice item, Darkrai simply isn’t strong enough to break through bulky teams, and can realistically only clean through offensive team that has been bludgeoned. Choice sets can be scary, but the hazard weakness + reliance on prediction is really bad for it.
Darkrai is weak without set-up, the common Pokemon it likes to set up on such as Zapdos Rotom-W Slowking-G Amoonguss can click a status move like Thunder Wave or Spore or strong move to get chip like Dondozo Body Press Garganacl Salt Cure or Moltres Tornadus-T slow U-turn into revenge killer/priority, Hell you can even switch in Zamazenta hard a few times since darkrai can’t even 2HKO it.
Even after set-up Darkrai can miss out on KO’s because the moves are either weak or do not have stab, for example Corviknight can live +2 Dark Pulse and finish off a weakened Darkrai with Body Press
This is also with set-up, I am not sure if all Darkrai will run Nasty Plot
Tera Blast-Fairy set Srn posted is most scary which is fair but it once again requires the initial set-up + burning your tera which is a lot to ask. Pokemon such as Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra were broken with Tera Blast because they were insanely fast (Eleki) or boosted speed such as Volcarona and Espathra meaning they would snowball out of control. Darkrai however cannot boost its speed and can still be checked outside of priority. I also believe there will be a Tera Blast ban in the future which is good for Darkrai’s balance
People are also scared of the Hypnosis set which I don’t get. The chance of hitting Hypnosis is 60% then 1st turn wake factored makes it around 40%. The Exotic64 team has Hypnosis Iron Valiant which is true but it really isn’t a good set in my opinion. I am sure he can attest to this and also how a lot of players have changed it for Encore or coverage when laddering. Also Iron Valiant in theory is way scarier if you hit Hypnosis because it has Booster Energy giving it 546 base speed. You can Hypnosis then possibly get 2 Calm Minds but clearly this isn’t a consistent strategy even on that Pokemon so not sure why people say it will be common on Darkrai outside of ladder cheese for the first week it is out
I think we should drop Darkrai for OU
Why drop darkrai?
For one, offensively, its not that much better than what pokemon we already have. Currently, all of the offensive pokemon are balanced, and the ones that are Super Strong like ogerpon-hearthflame can be managed with hazards, pivots, chip and out-offensing (For example, Gliscor + Pex is a very versatile combo right now that can be paired with a lot of defensive pokemon, and with gliscor's ability to stack hazard, ogerpon will have much less opportunity to get in). Darkrai fits perfectly in the middle of speed tier and power level of the current OU mons, Fast, but not as fast as scarfers, Zamazenta, Dragon Dancers and Dragapult, Strong but not as strong as the big breakers like Ogerpon and Kingambit, its basically just a special attacking Zamazenta but with much less bulk
These are great stats, but also not too overwhelming, you can realistically check it with already good spdef mons like pex with toxic, clefable, gliscor and faster threats like scarf enamorus and zamazenta, dragapult can revenge after chip
Now i've read the responses from Srn Eeveeto and ant4456 regarding why we shouldn't drop darkrai due to calcs, and to that i say "yeah, so what?" because pokemon is much deeper than just 1 turn calcs, and if you look at the most popular teams right now (from balance to offense) they all can handle darkrai well without even trying. Take a look at these teams:
Keep in mind these are just the balance teams, i didn't even put the popular offense that can easily overwhelm darkrai like Veil, and remember, this is BEFORE Darkrai is even out so these teams aren't even trying to beat darkrai but still can handle it well, Balance can pivot around it with mons like spdef gliscor, spdef pex, fezandipiti, ting-lu and chip it slowly (just like how they do with other threats like gambit, ogerpon, etc.) HO can trade mons and be on top. So while calcs like these
Looks scary on paper, in practice it’ll be more managable similar to how we handle Walking Wake which has even scarier calcs (and i haven't even touch upon potential moveset and tera changes these pokemon can have to ruin darkrai like twave clef, knock gliscor, protect spam, tera poison, and an increase in scarf users.). Looking at some mons in the past, Mixed Iron Valiant in Home Meta looked super scary with its speed and attacks, with the right move and set its downright unwallable, but the meta managed, with changes like tera fire zamazenta, defensive gholdengo and colbur berry slowking-g, so why can't the meta adapt to darkrai? we have the tools to do it, and in fact it can even help vs some of the huge meta threats like Ogerpon and Manaphy on HO or Gholdengo Spikestack on balance. It can use many sets from nasty plot to taunt knock off to scarf, but theyre still checked by the same few pokemon like Ting-Lu, more niche ‘mons like Fezandipiti which i think is underrated, Etc. Not to mention, it really needs boots because if it runs a non boots set like choice, it will have a very hard time againts Spikestack/Bootspam balance team with Gliscor Dengo Pex. Choice item will be good too since it won’t die as quickly as Life Orb but being locked into 1 80BP dark stab i am not too worried about
Considering how:
-it struggles with hazard and status,
-can be played around with the tools available currently,
-can be out offensed with what we have currently
-can still be revenge killed relatively safely by common threats,
-can even help some Offense and Balance team play checking threats of this tier (gliscor with ice beam, manaphy with thunder, gholdengo) currently
and for those saying "What about tournaments?" We can suspect it on ladder but ban it from SPL/OST while it happens DLC2
Darkrai also has difficult time picking moveslots
Dark Pulse / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb - Most common but requires set-up as the coverage is weak unboosted. easily played around by SpDef Gliscor, Clodsire, Toxapex. Funny even Sneasler and Great Tusk naturally checks this
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Sludge Bomb - walled by Kingambit (which is big) Toxapex Tyranitar in DLC2 since sand should make comeback with Excadrill, also Tyranitar is already underrated with Knock Off now
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Psyshock - walled by WaterPon, Fairys - Clefable, Garganacl
For those looking to use a 4 attack set/Choice item, Darkrai simply isn’t strong enough to break through bulky teams, and can realistically only clean through offensive team that has been bludgeoned. Choice sets can be scary, but the hazard weakness + reliance on prediction is really bad for it.
Darkrai is weak without set-up, the common Pokemon it likes to set up on such as Zapdos Rotom-W Slowking-G Amoonguss can click a status move like Thunder Wave or Spore or strong move to get chip like Dondozo Body Press Garganacl Salt Cure or Moltres Tornadus-T slow U-turn into revenge killer/priority, Hell you can even switch in Zamazenta hard a few times since darkrai can’t even 2HKO it.
Even after set-up Darkrai can miss out on KO’s because the moves are either weak or do not have stab, for example Corviknight can live +2 Dark Pulse and finish off a weakened Darkrai with Body Press
This is also with set-up, I am not sure if all Darkrai will run Nasty Plot
Tera Blast-Fairy set Srn posted is most scary which is fair but it once again requires the initial set-up + burning your tera which is a lot to ask. Pokemon such as Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra were broken with Tera Blast because they were insanely fast (Eleki) or boosted speed such as Volcarona and Espathra meaning they would snowball out of control. Darkrai however cannot boost its speed and can still be checked outside of priority. I also believe there will be a Tera Blast ban in the future which is good for Darkrai’s balance
People are also scared of the Hypnosis set which I don’t get. The chance of hitting Hypnosis is 60% then 1st turn wake factored makes it around 40%. The Exotic64 team has Hypnosis Iron Valiant which is true but it really isn’t a good set in my opinion. I am sure he can attest to this and also how a lot of players have changed it for Encore or coverage when laddering. Also Iron Valiant in theory is way scarier if you hit Hypnosis because it has Booster Energy giving it 546 base speed. You can Hypnosis then possibly get 2 Calm Minds but clearly this isn’t a consistent strategy even on that Pokemon so not sure why people say it will be common on Darkrai outside of ladder cheese for the first week it is out
I have not played for a few months and I see that the council never talked about the tera issue according to the surveys. People have spoken about this mechanic for almost a year now so if the community feedback is important, why was this not tested again ? Will this ever be adressed before the end of the generation or will they keep banning Pokemon that would be fine without this dumb mechanic ?
Remember how complained endlessly about Chi Yu/Ape during the first Tera suspect? DLC2 is coming in the very near future. Home and DLC1 metas are crazy short. Tera action would significantly hamper the ability to take tiering action on other things. It makes sense to stabilize the meta we have as much as possible (within the blind Tera status quo the player base chose) and wait to act on Tera again once we have the most complete information possible.
I fully expect its support to skyrocket now that Bax is gone, since Bax was the obvious elephant in the room, and I believe support for Hearthflame going is likely to be far higher considering how many are complaining about it being here
I would say if tera gets banned, I'd be completely cool with Darkrai dropping, as it has some pretty nasty 4mss and being mono dark with only slightly above average defense means that strong priority can pick it off. Offensively, tera probably makes its nasty plot sets too good though and that's why I am against testing it as it would simply tera out of its dark weakness to set up an NP and take over a game, which is the exact reason that Kingambit is broken. So, while I do want Darkrai tested I think it should wait like most people have said when we possibly have tera gone/restricted so Darkrai can be a kind of healthy presence potentiallyReal post time:
I think we should drop Darkrai for OU
Why drop darkrai?
For one, offensively, its not that much better than what pokemon we already have. Currently, all of the offensive pokemon are balanced, and the ones that are Super Strong like ogerpon-hearthflame can be managed with hazards, pivots, chip and out-offensing (For example, Gliscor + Pex is a very versatile combo right now that can be paired with a lot of defensive pokemon, and with gliscor's ability to stack hazard, ogerpon will have much less opportunity to get in). Darkrai fits perfectly in the middle of speed tier and power level of the current OU mons, Fast, but not as fast as scarfers, Zamazenta, Dragon Dancers and Dragapult, Strong but not as strong as the big breakers like Ogerpon and Kingambit, its basically just a special attacking Zamazenta but with much less bulk
These are great stats, but also not too overwhelming, you can realistically check it with already good spdef mons like pex with toxic, clefable, gliscor and faster threats like scarf enamorus and zamazenta, dragapult can revenge after chip
Now i've read the responses from Srn Eeveeto and ant4456 regarding why we shouldn't drop darkrai due to calcs, and to that i say "yeah, so what?" because pokemon is much deeper than just 1 turn calcs, and if you look at the most popular teams right now (from balance to offense) they all can handle darkrai well without even trying. Take a look at these teams:
Keep in mind these are just the balance teams, i didn't even put the popular offense that can easily overwhelm darkrai like Veil, and remember, this is BEFORE Darkrai is even out so these teams aren't even trying to beat darkrai but still can handle it well, Balance can pivot around it with mons like spdef gliscor, spdef pex, fezandipiti, ting-lu and chip it slowly (just like how they do with other threats like gambit, ogerpon, etc.) HO can trade mons and be on top. So while calcs like these
Looks scary on paper, in practice it’ll be more managable similar to how we handle Walking Wake which has even scarier calcs (and i haven't even touch upon potential moveset and tera changes these pokemon can have to ruin darkrai like twave clef, knock gliscor, protect spam, tera poison, and an increase in scarf users.). Looking at some mons in the past, Mixed Iron Valiant in Home Meta looked super scary with its speed and attacks, with the right move and set its downright unwallable, but the meta managed, with changes like tera fire zamazenta, defensive gholdengo and colbur berry slowking-g, so why can't the meta adapt to darkrai? we have the tools to do it, and in fact it can even help vs some of the huge meta threats like Ogerpon and Manaphy on HO or Gholdengo Spikestack on balance. It can use many sets from nasty plot to taunt knock off to scarf, but theyre still checked by the same few pokemon like Ting-Lu, more niche ‘mons like Fezandipiti which i think is underrated, Etc. Not to mention, it really needs boots because if it runs a non boots set like choice, it will have a very hard time againts Spikestack/Bootspam balance team with Gliscor Dengo Pex. Choice item will be good too since it won’t die as quickly as Life Orb but being locked into 1 80BP dark stab i am not too worried about
Considering how:
-it struggles with hazard and status,
-can be played around with the tools available currently,
-can be out offensed with what we have currently
-can still be revenge killed relatively safely by common threats,
-can even help some Offense and Balance team play checking threats of this tier (gliscor with ice beam, manaphy with thunder, gholdengo) currently
and for those saying "What about tournaments?" We can suspect it on ladder but ban it from SPL/OST while it happens DLC2
Darkrai also has difficult time picking moveslots
Dark Pulse / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb - Most common but requires set-up as the coverage is weak unboosted. easily played around by SpDef Gliscor, Clodsire, Toxapex. Funny even Sneasler and Great Tusk naturally checks this
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Sludge Bomb - walled by Kingambit (which is big) Toxapex Tyranitar in DLC2 since sand should make comeback with Excadrill, also Tyranitar is already underrated with Knock Off now
Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Psyshock - walled by WaterPon, Fairys - Clefable, Garganacl
For those looking to use a 4 attack set/Choice item, Darkrai simply isn’t strong enough to break through bulky teams, and can realistically only clean through offensive team that has been bludgeoned. Choice sets can be scary, but the hazard weakness + reliance on prediction is really bad for it.
Darkrai is weak without set-up, the common Pokemon it likes to set up on such as Zapdos Rotom-W Slowking-G Amoonguss can click a status move like Thunder Wave or Spore or strong move to get chip like Dondozo Body Press Garganacl Salt Cure or Moltres Tornadus-T slow U-turn into revenge killer/priority, Hell you can even switch in Zamazenta hard a few times since darkrai can’t even 2HKO it.
Even after set-up Darkrai can miss out on KO’s because the moves are either weak or do not have stab, for example Corviknight can live +2 Dark Pulse and finish off a weakened Darkrai with Body Press
This is also with set-up, I am not sure if all Darkrai will run Nasty Plot
Tera Blast-Fairy set Srn posted is most scary which is fair but it once again requires the initial set-up + burning your tera which is a lot to ask. Pokemon such as Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra were broken with Tera Blast because they were insanely fast (Eleki) or boosted speed such as Volcarona and Espathra meaning they would snowball out of control. Darkrai however cannot boost its speed and can still be checked outside of priority. I also believe there will be a Tera Blast ban in the future which is good for Darkrai’s balance
People are also scared of the Hypnosis set which I don’t get. The chance of hitting Hypnosis is 60% then 1st turn wake factored makes it around 40%. The Exotic64 team has Hypnosis Iron Valiant which is true but it really isn’t a good set in my opinion. I am sure he can attest to this and also how a lot of players have changed it for Encore or coverage when laddering. Also Iron Valiant in theory is way scarier if you hit Hypnosis because it has Booster Energy giving it 546 base speed. You can Hypnosis then possibly get 2 Calm Minds but clearly this isn’t a consistent strategy even on that Pokemon so not sure why people say it will be common on Darkrai outside of ladder cheese for the first week it is out
Last edited:
You not seeing something doesn’t mean we never talked about it, RKOtaku.
There was a survey in it, there were multiple threads on it where council members posted (including one pinned in this subforum), and there was a concrete plan made to circle back to the topic once the DLC metagame settled.
This has all been made publicly accessible and you should take a look for these things before blindly complaining and requesting more work/communication from overworked volunteers. We have had more posts and discussion of Tera over the last 3 months than on virtually any other topic and there was no window to retest it yet, so we promised to circle back. The time to circle back obviously isn’t within a week of a major release.
I’m making my own rn this is so funny
Zamazenta's fine, Mon gets walled by stuff like galarian slowking and absolutely hates Zapdos and Moltres being everywhere. Not anywhere near broken.
Sneasler's annoying due to dire claw, but not really broken as its offensive typing isn't the best and it needs a good amount of support to really take over games.
Hogerpon is the only one of the ogerpons that is problematic, and that's due to the attack boost being that absurd with its type combo + mold breaker
What did Zamazenta do off goat he's keeping our nation together.
Also I just wanna chip in on Darkrai again. Please don't. Gen 9 already has its hands full with threats out the ass, we don't need to add another threat just for kicks. What value does Darkrai provide other than being another big and fast threat with a potential big rng factor (dark pulse flinch, sub/hypnosis). Even if it isn't broken (which I kinda doubt) I still don't really want it around. I see it similar to black kyurem in gen 5 OU not being broken but introduced at a bad time (because what did gen 5 OU need in 2012 more than another big dumb strong dragon). I generally prefer to be proactive but I think any Darkrai tests should be saved for when DLC 2 rolls around.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Bro, Zamazenta is fine. Moltres, Glowking, and Zapdos are common checks. IDBP is only doing ok rn due to the HO meta we are in. The second the meta settles down again Zama will be running that less. It’s not even a top 10 mon in this meta. If anything, it’s pretty nice to have rn. A gambit check that does good into HO is a nice addition to the meta.
Sneasler isn't that overwhelming, at least that's what I think. If it's the pivot set with fake out poison touch and stuff, it risks either getting para or burn from zapdos or moltres if it doesn't run protective pads but if it does then it's vulnerable to spikes chip over time. Sneasler also gets ohko'd by a light breeze and a lot of strong priority moves will do a lot of damage to it because of it's whopping 60 def. Sneasler isn't even a top 10 mon.
I asked because I didn't see it and wanted to know if there was any "official" smogon update on it other than the last survey post talking about it back in July 8.
I saw the discussion thread about it but at the end of the day it's just a discussion that has happened since the beggining of the gen. I have already seen the arguments for/against it countless times so I was only interested in knowing if something came out of the " Of 136 qualified players who responded, 88 supported action on Terastallization while 48 opposed action -- this is approximately 65% support " which seemed like a big enough number to act on it. It was also a long time before the dlc came out.
Feel free to think I'm "blindly" complaining but I wouldn't have posted if I saw an announcement thread about it. I just felt like dealing with it before the dlc were out was the smarter thing to do since the meta isn't going to be stable for a while especially with dlc2 on the horizon.
Anyway, thanks for your answer. I'm out.
I think it's more a situation that Tera is so controversial and the meta is going to be going through so many shifts that it would be a lot better to wait until DLC2 drops to finalize the Tera stuff. At least that's what my take away was seeing as at the time, Teal Mask was just right around the corner and rn, Indigo Disk is also right around the corner.
Methinks the process is not so simple as people here think it is.
Eh, not fully. We have eliminated a lot of half measures and found a better lane for discussion. The understanding of Tera and opinions on it are more developed than ever. Also, in that discussion thread, it was laid out that there will be another survey to get into the specifics of the support after DLC, so I would just stay tuned for that.
This is something I have responded to many times, but there wasn’t a timeframe to fit a suspect between this stretch and DLC1 drop that made sense. Think about it: a suspect takes 3 weeks normally and for a core mechanic likely closer to a month. This isn’t including the added time for discussing the format of the suspect, which we actually made a lot of progress on already, so at least this won’t be a repeat in the future.
For those interested in Tera discussion, more will come once things settle. I cannot promise anything specific, but we are listening and nobody is being ignored.
Stop comparing Darkrai to other Special Attackers in the tier with "similar stats" because there is one crucial tool that Darkrai has that they basically don't.
Nasty Plot.
One of the most broken moves in the game, and I am not kidding. The reason Nasty Plot has shit distribution (you can go check), is because it is a very broken setup move, and most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance like Physical Attackers.
With Physical Attackers you have things like the moves giving you recoil, lowering your stats, Intimidate!!!!, Flame Body / Static and more.
The Physical Attacker is almost always balanced around two things: The fact that it can setup easier with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance etc., and that it can then be checked by other means.
Special Attacks are inherently harder to check with the moves rarely having downsides beyond "low BP" which are usually made up for by their secondary effects with promote spamming. Shadow Ball defense drops, Scald burns, Discharge paralysis. While there are some Physical Attacks with hax (ie. Rock Slide), usually they aren't a big problem.
Essentially, most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost twice in the same turn. Calm Mind for a lot of Pokemon is boosting a useless stat, even at +1 SpDef Iron Valiant is dying to most Special Attacks, so it's like fucking SWSH Zamazenta-C boosting with *Howl*. Enamorus as well, though the SpDef is a bit more useful it'd much more rather to get 2 boosts in one turn and just destroy the tier.
Walking Wake with Nasty Plot would have been a Quickban and that shouldn't even be a controversial statement. Protosynthesis speed -> giving it +2 -> now it can spam? Absurd.
Nasty Plot is unironically one of the most broken moves in the game solely because of how Special Attackers are designed. Does this mean I'm saying getting Nasty Plot makes a Pokemon broken? God fucking no lol. But if I took any OU Special Attacker in most tiers and gave it Nasty Plot it'd probably get banned like, within the month.
It's a very, very, very, very, very big jump in power to boost twice in one turn rather than one boost.
People keep saying "Pokemon is more complicated than calcs, look at how much easier it will be to check it in practice!"
I'm gonna level with you: Shit is almost always more broken than the calcs say. Almost always. You can go through most Ubers that not literally Groudon and say "this is managable in the tier", because guess what?
They are technically. Fuck, the way Ubers deal with Zacian-C is literally Skeledirge, which is a fine Pokemon in OU. Ting-Lu is one of the best Pokemon in Ubers and checks basically everything, and does the same shit.
OU is not a playground we have monsters. If you threw down Urshifu Dark into the tier, it'd make it demonstrably worse but it wouldn't be "uncheckable". Swords Dance? Lol Iron Valiant outspeeds and kills with Moonblast / Encores the last move. It even quad resists Wicked Blow. Max PhysDef Clefable can take a hit from Band and see what it's doing. We have several good Regenerator Pokemon which made up of Balance cores trying to PP Stall Wicked Blow in Gen 8, now they just have to pivot into their Super-Effective faster Pokemon when it Swords Dances or Dondozo.
Offense teams? Should already be ready for powerful Sucker Punches, Kingambit is technically more powerful in that regard.
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Things are not usually "less broken in practice" they are usually more broken in practice. And the only argument seems to be "calcs don't matter just close your eyes" + "4MSS" which honestly isn't even an upside, it would just make the tier less consistent.
Power creep makes the game worse by making less and less Pokemon viable creating a less diverse metagame, and the way to fight power creep is to reverse it, not unban more Pokemon in the guise of "the power creep has made it fine".
Anywho, doesn't really matter what I say at this point. I'm ready for people to go AV Pex on the Nasty Plot and get flinched down before being able to do anything.
All in Pokémon Scarlet & Violet DLC Expansion Pack 2 :tm:
Nasty Plot.
One of the most broken moves in the game, and I am not kidding. The reason Nasty Plot has shit distribution (you can go check), is because it is a very broken setup move, and most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance like Physical Attackers.
With Physical Attackers you have things like the moves giving you recoil, lowering your stats, Intimidate!!!!, Flame Body / Static and more.
The Physical Attacker is almost always balanced around two things: The fact that it can setup easier with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance etc., and that it can then be checked by other means.
Special Attacks are inherently harder to check with the moves rarely having downsides beyond "low BP" which are usually made up for by their secondary effects with promote spamming. Shadow Ball defense drops, Scald burns, Discharge paralysis. While there are some Physical Attacks with hax (ie. Rock Slide), usually they aren't a big problem.
Essentially, most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost twice in the same turn. Calm Mind for a lot of Pokemon is boosting a useless stat, even at +1 SpDef Iron Valiant is dying to most Special Attacks, so it's like fucking SWSH Zamazenta-C boosting with *Howl*. Enamorus as well, though the SpDef is a bit more useful it'd much more rather to get 2 boosts in one turn and just destroy the tier.
Walking Wake with Nasty Plot would have been a Quickban and that shouldn't even be a controversial statement. Protosynthesis speed -> giving it +2 -> now it can spam? Absurd.
Nasty Plot is unironically one of the most broken moves in the game solely because of how Special Attackers are designed. Does this mean I'm saying getting Nasty Plot makes a Pokemon broken? God fucking no lol. But if I took any OU Special Attacker in most tiers and gave it Nasty Plot it'd probably get banned like, within the month.
It's a very, very, very, very, very big jump in power to boost twice in one turn rather than one boost.
People keep saying "Pokemon is more complicated than calcs, look at how much easier it will be to check it in practice!"
I'm gonna level with you: Shit is almost always more broken than the calcs say. Almost always. You can go through most Ubers that not literally Groudon and say "this is managable in the tier", because guess what?
They are technically. Fuck, the way Ubers deal with Zacian-C is literally Skeledirge, which is a fine Pokemon in OU. Ting-Lu is one of the best Pokemon in Ubers and checks basically everything, and does the same shit.
OU is not a playground we have monsters. If you threw down Urshifu Dark into the tier, it'd make it demonstrably worse but it wouldn't be "uncheckable". Swords Dance? Lol Iron Valiant outspeeds and kills with Moonblast / Encores the last move. It even quad resists Wicked Blow. Max PhysDef Clefable can take a hit from Band and see what it's doing. We have several good Regenerator Pokemon which made up of Balance cores trying to PP Stall Wicked Blow in Gen 8, now they just have to pivot into their Super-Effective faster Pokemon when it Swords Dances or Dondozo.
Offense teams? Should already be ready for powerful Sucker Punches, Kingambit is technically more powerful in that regard.
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Things are not usually "less broken in practice" they are usually more broken in practice. And the only argument seems to be "calcs don't matter just close your eyes" + "4MSS" which honestly isn't even an upside, it would just make the tier less consistent.
Power creep makes the game worse by making less and less Pokemon viable creating a less diverse metagame, and the way to fight power creep is to reverse it, not unban more Pokemon in the guise of "the power creep has made it fine".
Anywho, doesn't really matter what I say at this point. I'm ready for people to go AV Pex on the Nasty Plot and get flinched down before being able to do anything.
All in Pokémon Scarlet & Violet DLC Expansion Pack 2 :tm:
I think Darkrai should be tested when DLC 2 drops but probably not at first so it wont be unbanned while the meta is chaotic. I think we will only know for certain if its broken or not after we test. People had similar views on Zamazenta but it turned out to be fine, now I do think Darkrai is better than Zam but not by much. TLDR test it once the DLC 2 meta settles down so we can have a concrete answer to this debate. It is not comparable to a boxart legendary so stop making that comparison. The only thing I could see be annoying is losing games to dark pulse flinches.
The fact that Tailwind basically acts as a pseudo-Shift-Gear for Shiftry now and it can just blank Zapdos is actually a really cool interaction. I hope more stuff comes along with the Tailwind/Wind Rider combo.
You talk rubbish here, Thundy-T has 145 special, nasty plot and thanks to tera this gen boltbeam coverage yet it's stuck in UU and not broken. Whilst it's significantly slower than Darkrai in UU it's only outsped by 7 (uu by usage) mons, many of those mons don't hit Thundy-T particularly hard and defensively UU is a LOT weaker than OU so the 145 is more significant.
If nasty plot on (relatively) fast special attackers was such a problem Thundy-T would be super broken this gen with 145 special + nasty plot + bolt beam. Likewise other nasty plot mons like Gengar, H-Zoroark, Hydreigon, Azelf and Tornadus wouldn't be stuck in UU or lower.
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This is why I am saying to people to wait until tera gets looked into before we let Darkrai in here, as if we don't have to deal with tera, I could see Darkrai struggling to get a nasty plot up in the first place and actually struggling with its coverage. Base 90 bulk isn't really that good, and Darkrai's base 70 HP doesn't do it any favors either. Tera lets it plot for free and as we know with Kingambit that is not okay
For one, it requires Tera to not be forced onto Electric STAB, one of the most checkable STABs in the game. Two, it is significantly slower. Three, it has a Flying-Type that makes it Rocks weak and nothing to use it with. Its only Flying moves are still Acrobatics and Fly.
If you read what I said you'd see where I said "Does this mean I'm saying getting Nasty Plot makes a Pokemon broken? God fucking no lol."
But if you gave say, Iron Valiant Nasty Plot, it'd be Ubers with literally no question. A Pokemon like Thundurus-T isn't broken with Nasty Plot because everything else is holding it down. Needing Tera to reliably hit one of the most commonly used competitive types ever is a massive downside.
Meanwhile Darkrai is way faster, Dark is a fine STAB and it has all the coverage it needs. Thundurus-T is a way more flawed Pokemon at its core which is why it gets Nasty Plot, it'd be pretty bad without it.
Darkrai’s not just significantly faster but also has better bulk and coverage without even needing to Tera. A special attacker with the right attributes (like Darkrai) that allow it to abuse the shit out of Nasty Plot is pretty broken.
Iron Valiant would have been banned by now if it had Nasty Plot since Fighting/Fairy is an amazing typing overall, it has 120 SpA, it has insane coverage (with Psyshock allowing it to break Blissey and Clodsire), Booster Energy makes it faster than every unboosted mon in the tier, it has decent physical bulk and also how Tera makes it that much more powerful.
Did I mention it can also run other sets that destroy anything that checks the hypothetical Nasty Plot set too? AND it has powerful utility options like Trick, Encore and even Hypnosis for coinflip bullshit? Similar to how Darkrai can run Scarf and Specs if it just wants to simply kill something right as it switches in and also has the option to run Hypnosis for a 60/40 coinflip chance of chipping shit down with Bad Dreams and getting a free turn or two to use Nasty Plot.
Like I said before, I’d just prefer Game Freak make Dark Void 80% Accuracy again just so people shut up about dropping Darkrai. Right now it’s hard OUBL, but a Dark Void nerf-reversion would make it an outright staple in Ubers that nobody would really discuss bringing to OU again (aside from April Fools’ like they did with Gen 8 Zam-C).
I mean don’t get me wrong, I love all the chaos and having fun with broken shit too. But realistically aside from me liking the idea of steamrolling the meta with the funny eldritch nightmare monster, Darkrai is still too much for OU and getting distracted with dropping it rather than focusing on the broken shit already in OU that shouldn’t be is kind of a bad idea. It’s like how broken weather Pokémon were ravaging BW OU and the council’s first thought was dropping Kyurem-B (which turned out to be fine, but there could have been way better timing for that kind of thing).
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