Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Vall]

No you're twisting it in such an ignorant way of thinking.

Tera does push several mons, majority of the bans were influenced by tera offensively and defensively, its even right fucking there in the iron bundle ban post that defensively speaking tera DID make it more difficult to check, it was part of the reason as well as tera water making it deal more free damage. Is it the only reason? No. Is it broken without it? We don't know we never seen that but it did make the tier unplayable at the time it was around with tera, we can only say 'probably'.

And guess what, a majority of those bans were also made more difficult to check due to choice items, also listed in the ban posts. Any pro-ban logic you can apply to Tera besides the 4 mons I listed, you can apply to choice items. Which falls into the exact reason why Smogon mainly bans Mons rather than mechanics

 

[RoyalDispenser]

And guess what, a majority of those bans were also made more difficult to check due to choice items. Any pro-ban logic you can apply to Tera besides the 4 mons I listed, you can apply to choice items. Which falls into the exact reason why Smogon mainly bans Mons rather than mechanics

You're comparing an item that locks you into 1 move, and boost one offensive stats to a mechanic with no restrictions that changes your defensive and offensive counterplay to a mon at any given turn, they are not 1:1 at all.

 

[Srn]

And guess what, a majority of those bans were also made more difficult to check due to choice items, also listed in the ban posts. Any pro-ban logic you can apply to Tera besides the 4 mons I listed, you can apply to choice items. Which falls into the exact reason why Smogon mainly bans Mons rather than mechanics

"MAINLY" bans mons rather than mechanics...so you acknowledge the hole in your argument yourself.
Why would we ban a mechanic/item/move/ability rather than a mon? When it is the main factor making multiple pokemon broken. Tera has reached this standard; it is without a doubt the main reason why espathra and regieleki were banned.

 

[Vall]

You're comparing an item that locks you into 1 move, and boost one offensive stats to a mechanic with no restrictions that changes your defensive and offensive counterplay to a mon at any given turn, they are not 1:1 at all.

What the mechanic actually does is irrelevant.

Choice items are a frequently attributed feature that makes specific pokemon too much for OU, but is not brkoen on all mons that use it, and therefore isn't broken.

Tera is a frequently attributed feature that makes specific pokemon too much for OU, but is not brkoen on all mons that use it, and therefore isn't broken.

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

People usually ban the move if it's broken on multiple Mons
ex: last repects

 

[Vall]

"MAINLY" bans mons rather than mechanics...so you acknowledge the hole in your argument yourself.
Why would we ban a mechanic/item/move/ability rather than a mon? When it is the main factor making multiple pokemon broken. Tera has reached this standard; it is without a doubt the main reason why espathra and regieleki were banned.

But then inarguably choice items have also reached that standard.

The Standard is that every pokemon, and multiple pokemon with access to the mechanic is fundamentally unhealthy.

Trapinch was used for trapping, for example
Basculin white stripe was considered being used for last respects.
Orthworm has no place in OU but was made unbearable due to shed tail.

THAT is the standard for banning mechanics rather than mons

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

I feel that some people are biased of keeping tera in the game. While I do completely understand why, there could be a breaking point for the ban sooner or later.

 

[Srn]

But then inarguably choice items have also reached that standard.

The Standard is that every pokemon, and multiple pokemon with access to the mechanic is fundamentally unhealthy.

Trapinch was used for trapping, for example

Sorry let me try to be more clear.
Tera is the MAIN reason regieleki and espathra were quickbanned
Choice specs is NOT THE MAIN reason why flutter mane/iron bundle were quickbanned

 

[RoyalDispenser]

What the mechanic actually does is irrelevant.

No lol that's pretty much what defines the mechanic at all.

Choice items are a frequently attributed feature that makes specific pokemon too much for OU, but is not brkoen on all mons that use it, and therefore isn't broken.

And whats your argument for tera then?

If you want to say choice items are a common denominator on banned mons just as much as tera, then fine, but in what way is tera healthy outside of those banned mons either? We're still showing the lack of defensive and offensive counterplay tera causes for certain mons that would be up for ban slate (see volc). Likewise gen 8 heavy duty boots was genuinely discussion for a ban because it did infact become a common theme for some mons becoming broken with 0 chip damage (volc, cinder, pivots in general, etc). You have to understand what seperates the two and typically choice items restrict the player in return of the damage output/speed boost, its why you don't just see choice scarf dragapult cause its not worth the cost of being locked in to outspeed fucking everything but tera is viable for anything in some capacity, either breaking them or enhancing them.

Tera is always a factor for why someone is banned, it is sometimes, so far more often than not the main reason and you can debate the individual cases on that but you even acknowledged it on some of them, and items are simply not in that situation at all rn.. unless you want to throw light clay under the bus for giving them screens or something.

 

[Vall]

Sorry let me try to be more clear.
Tera is the MAIN reason regieleki and espathra were quickbanned
Choice specs is NOT THE MAIN reason why flutter mane/iron bundle were quickbanned

The discussion wasn't about eleki and espathra. RoyalDispenser was arguing that it was evidence for being unhealthy on pretty much every other banned mon.

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

So.. are we talking about a problematic mechanic, or a problematic item(s)?

 

[Vall]

And whats your argument for tera then?

If you want to say choice items are a common denominator on banned mons just as much as tera, then fine, but in what way is tera healthy outside of those banned mons either? We're still showing the lack of defensive and offensive counterplay tera causes for certain mons that would be up for ban slate (see volc). Likewise gen 8 heavy duty boots was genuinely discussion for a ban because it did infact become a common theme for some mons becoming broken with 0 chip damage (volc, cinder, pivots in general, etc). You have to understand what seperates the two and typically choice items restrict the player in return of the damage output/speed boost, its why you don't just see choice scarf dragapult cause its not worth the cost of being locked in to outspeed fucking everything but tera is viable for anything in some capacity, either breaking them or enhancing them.

My perspective of "competitiveness" heavily depends on the adaptability of a player during a game, which is the kinds of gameplay tera promotes. I'm fine, and would even be willing to advocate for team preview because it refines this concept. To me, it is worth removing a few mons from the meta to promote what I, personally consider to be a more "competitive" environment.

 

[awyp]

People usually ban the move if it's broken on multiple Mons
ex: last repects

wait let him cook

 

[Magcargo]

All I know is that I'd rather restrict Tera first before moving onto a ban. Tons of cool new strategies are possible thanks to the mechanic, which I've enjoyed making use of like Tera Normal E-Speed D-Nite, various Tera Fairy mons like Garg to pivot into devasting Dragon moves (which are quite strong due to less Fairies), Tera Bug Ceruledge, Tera Fire Kingambit, Tera Dark Clodsire, etc, which I'd personally hate to lose. Tera Management is also another interesting layer added, which I am not particularly the best at, but I have found has led to some interesting outcomes in various games such as this one.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1878004509

Here, Tera'ing cost me the game. Sure, I got a stronger hit on Magearna, but I also lost a consistent switch in to Tusk, letting my opponent spam his powerful Headlong Rushes on most of my team. My opponent didn't even burn their Tera. There are multiple other situations like this which have popped up as well, where Tera'ing poses a genuine risk (i.e. Tera Water Urshifu when the opponent has a Gambit in their back pocket).

The two main things I don't like about Tera are Tera Blast (specifically from cheesy Stored Power users) and not knowing the opponent's Tera type on preview (specifically on setup sweepers), both of which can easily be circumvented with restrictions. Will it solve everything? Who knows, but I'd rather not lose access to these strategies, especially since an unban likely won't be in the discussion the same way it wasn't for Dynamax in most of gen 8. SV has been some of the most fun I've had since in a meta Gen 5 and the additional depth added by Tera is a big contributor towards that. I have no doubt SV will be a fine metagame even without Tera, but I'd personally prefer to keep it.

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

I have no doubt SV will be a fine metagame even without Tera, but I'd personally prefer to keep it.

See what I mean?

 

[Vall]

See what I mean?

I mean... Yeah?
But the meta would be fine if we banned practically anything....

Like say we randomly banned meowscarada. The meta would be fine without it, but people would prefer to keep it.

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

But the meta would be fine if we banned practically anything....

If we banned anything and everything, there wouldn't really be a "meta" anymore. It's why we have lower tiers like UU and such. Each tier has it's own meta and banning things that "people would be fine without," or "prefer to keep" would shake up the meta so much that it could or would affect lower tiers. We can't just ban anything, that just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

 

[Vall]

If we banned anything and everything, there wouldn't really be a "meta" anymore. It's why we have lower tiers like UU and such. Each tier has it's own meta and banning things that "people would be fine without," or "prefer to keep" would shake up the meta so much that it could or would affect lower tiers. We can't just ban anything, that just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

I mean yeah. That's exactly my point. OU would work without Tera, no-one is arguing about that. But for people who don't see it as problematic, they are (and should be) biased towards keeping it.

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

I mean yeah. That's exactly my point. OU would work without Tera, no-one is arguing about that. But for people who don't see it as problematic, they are (and should be) biased towards keeping it.

I think it truly comes down to if people really want a gen without tera (a mechanic) who knows?

 

[yomaalt]

You know this already: Eleki was banned cause it gained coverage, espathra was banned cause of tera fighting to not get stone walled by darks / tera fiery to muscle through some like kingambit with gleam after several boost, ape tera water definitely pushed it to quick ban, volc we have yet to see but is controversal cause volc pretty much *is* the epitome of tera, the mon in itself is what tera is.

Looking at other bans;

Both times, chien-pao was banned for tera reasons. Before it barely got banned mainly due to tera fighting to muscle some would be checks and tera dark to push its STAB crunch even further, now its definitely because tera stab crunch is way too difficult to deal with, without proper dark checks i.e. fairies.

Iron bundle was wall-able, check-able, until it tera'd then the calcs show it muscled past everything when factoring in its quark drive and revenge killing was a liability since even though it's glass it still could resist the hit with a tera if not nuking everything with it.

Palafin may have had more checks without tera water (cant touch dondozo but nowadays if there was more discussion i'm sure tera grass knot may have seen play), the fact it nuked anything that can't sponge a hit is part of why it went.

Flutter mane its hard to say, its physically fraily and would be easy to revenge kill with priority if it didn't do so much damage with tera + possibly defensive tera to avoid revenge killing, its basically a special kartana with piss weak defense and high SpD, only extremespeed doesn't hit it.

Out of all the currently banned uber pokemon that have been in OU,

5/9 were definite bans due to tera or had their bans happen sooner as a result of it

- Annihilape
- Chien-pao
- Regi
- Espathra
- Iron Bundle

3/9 Are debatable bans due to tera

- Chi-yu (might've been same reasoning as chien-pao, must;'ve just been too strong in general)
- Palafin (strong hard hitter, tera might've made it more potent than it really was but more likely it was just that strong)
- Flutter Mane (^)

1/9 isn't debatable it just didn't belong in the tier

- Zama

If you add volc to the mix there's an even higher percentage of mons overtuned by tera, and there's still large debate being overlooked with kingambit, dragonite, and roaring moon that could also be related to their teras.

Other than zama, tera is always part of the discussion on the pokemon we've banned so far, not including anything that flat out never touched the tier at all such as lando-i, spectrier, etc.

What? Bundle was banned cause water + ice and freeze dry coverage hit everything, and it had stab on all of it's moves. Tera just made it that we didn't have a chi-yu moment and let it roam the tier

Palafin was banned simply cause taunt + BU let it bulk on anything not named bozo, and win by spammingjet/drain pucnh to victory

Flutter mane is flutter mane the moment we started using booster CM it was already ban worth

Chi-yu: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake in Sun: 210-247 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is a 99/83 quad resist, it simply forced a kill on nearly anything that didn't have a crap ton of investment into bulk to live it's hits, or is called "sp.def moon"

Chien-Pao is physical chi-yu even without tera if you aren't a resist/bozo a CB icicle crasb/crunch is doing 15 quadrillion, and unlike fish, it has dual prio and is in no means slow

Eleki and pathra are 100% tera's fault i agree, ape is debateable, but these 4 are simply monsters who need not ever graze this tier for the sanity of all players

 

[artificialdeath]

My position used to be that Tera would break otherwise okay Pokemon, and that the pro-tera crowd would regret it once Annihilape/Cyclizar/Chi-Yu were gone. I've kinda changed my views, as stuff like Garganacl and arguably Gambit turned out to be manageable, and Eleki is the only real example so far of Tera breaking something that would otherwise be low-tier OU/mid-tier UU. Espathra maybe, but I think that even without Tera it would end up like Volc as an incredibly matchup fishy mon that struggles with Steels and some Darks but wins against most other stuff once it snowballs a bit. As much as I like Volcarona's design and how it plays it's always been questionably healthy for the meta in every gen except maybe 8 (sure HDB got rid of its main weakness but it can't do Hidden Power shenanigans and Knock Off spam is everywhere in SS). Tera just makes that problem so much worse though. Maybe the DLCs will bring other things that are unquestionably broken with Tera; only people at GF know.

That being said, I still think Tera is worth a ban because it's inherently uncompetitive. People at Smogon have made their position on variance quite clear: Too little variance is quite bad (no one likes slotting a Mandibuzz or SpDef Tar on every team because of Spectrier) but too much variance can be just as unhealthy (see Kyurem for another example from SS). Giving every mon the ability to freely change their type to potentially invalidate counterplay is absolutely not healthy for the meta, even if most of the broken mons highlighted would be broken with or without Tera.

 

[Cuddly]

I think an angle that many people are missing is Tera Blast.
That seems to be the issue with many Pokemon. Well I do miss Hidden Power, making it effectively 120 BP is a bit much. Prime examples being Espathra getting 120 BP fighting move, Regieleki getting a 120 BP Ice or Water move, and now Volcarona getting a 120 BP Water or Ground move.
I think testing Tera Blast would be the best call. Another Tera suspect would likely just have the same results and people would complain about it like last time. With banning Tera Blast, it’s a smaller part of Tera and a part more people would willingly conceed in banning.

 

[Vall]

That being said, I still think Tera is worth a ban because it's inherently uncompetitive. People at Smogon have made their position on variance quite clear: Too little variance is quite bad (no one likes slotting a Mandibuzz or SpDef Tar on every team because of Spectrier) but too much variance can be just as unhealthy (see Kyurem for another example from SS). Giving every mon the ability to freely change their type to potentially invalidate counterplay is absolutely not healthy for the meta, even if most of the broken mons highlighted would be broken with or without Tera.

Fair Enough. My definition of what is competitive probably differs to yours, and neither is inherently right. IG we'll see what happens at the suspect, whenver that may be

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I really think we should entertain light clay. Every other team on the ladder right now is a screens spam HO cheese team and it brings a ridiculous amount of Pokémon to unacceptable levels

"It's a symptom of all the broken Pokémon in the tier" such as Zamazenta, Urshifu, Sneasler, Ursaluna, Articuno-G, Mew, Uxie, Braviary-H, Volcarona, Moltres-G, Dragonite, Azumarill, Basculegion, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Cresselia, Iron Valiant, the former Chien-Pao and Magearna... anything with boosting moves gets lifted to absurd power levels with screens in the mix and this degenerate playstyle will continue to pollute the ladder

"Tera is the real problem" you can Tera one Pokémon, five Pokémon can engage in this crap if need be. Furthermore Light Clay can banned to fix this game right now and Tera has a post-WCOP timeline at minimum.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I think an angle that many people are missing is Tera Blast.
That seems to be the issue with many Pokemon. Well I do miss Hidden Power, making it effectively 120 BP is a bit much. Prime examples being Espathra getting 120 BP fighting move, Regieleki getting a 120 BP Ice or Water move, and now Volcarona getting a 120 BP Water or Ground move.
I think testing Tera Blast would be the best call. Another Tera suspect would likely just have the same results and people would complain about it like last time. With banning Tera Blast, it’s a smaller part of Tera and a part more people would willingly conceed in banning.

Problem is not all tera users are broken from tera blast.

Tera blast itself is fine, and removing it doesn't stop the defensive uses.

For example; espathra would still be broken without tera blast because tera fairy boosted dazzling gleam would muscle would be checks due to the free boost in it while those same checks wouldn't be able to kill it with a dark move.

Removing tera blast would nerf some mons (volc, eleki) but not really affect others (chien, annihilape)