Alright this is becoming the OU Room. Let’s shift back focus to Tera and disregard novelty narratives such as inapplicable votes and infeasible solutions. Also, be nice to each other. We all just want to have fun
yes.also have people considered the benefits of defensive terastalization
It is your job to defend your points if you want them to be seen as legitimate. Otherwise, what good reason would there be to even bother posting in the first place?it's not my job to be the CEO of Pro-Tera, pointing out that said posts exists and that you can look at them is enough
my job is not to sit here as you essentially vent about how tera is killing your babies (pokemon with crazy stats and abilities) while half of the anti-tera arguments start with "Terastilization is really fun"
While this isnt necessarily true, this logic can be applied to almost every problematic thing there once was. If you pass a second placer on a race, you now become the second place. If we get rid of certain Pokemon for being too overpowered under tera, new stuff will become broken. This logic does not even address the actual issue and is just a lazy response.Most of the issues ppl complain are more about on the radar mons.
What tera does is far beyond forcing 50/50's, as that term is normally used for a situation with 2 outcomes (A coinflip). Tera's many type changes allows crapload more than that, and WHILE I ACKNOWLEDGE WE NOW HAVE DECIDED SOME KNOWN GOOD TERA TYPES FOR CERTAIN POKEMON THAT ARE ALSO VERY MUCH SO PREDICTABLE, we havent fully explored the lesser good options. An example would help I hope. You have a water type pokemon and you wanna pick a tera type, your natural weaknesses are Electric and Grass. Obviously Dragon/Steel seems like the BEST possible outcomes. Or rather, you may opt to one of Bug, Fire, Flying, Grass, and Poison for Grass attacks and use either Electric / Grass to mitigate Electric weakness. Please stop pretending like tera is easy to predict because people are automatically using the best/most logical tera type because its more convenient.50/50s are not new to Pokemon, move usage and sets for example can easily become 50/50 and nobody thinks its uncompetitive.
Dynamax could win or lose you games. Didnt change the fact that it was a broken mechanic.Tera can and WILL win u games, but it can also lose them.
The fact that you think Dondozo is a contender for ban is curious. (Seriously, use Electric-types people. Rotom-W is quite underrated)Ppl still need to adapt, learn, many mons to be released, some bans might eventually happen (ChiYu, Annihilape, Dondozo).
This may be the single most stupid comment I've read so far on this thread. Are you actually saying you get proud when you get outplayed?When my opponent terastilizes and surprises me and maybe even wins the game, i dont feel cheated like i do when i miss the hydropump or get crited, i feel proud of my opponent for catching me offguard with such a nice Tech.
Currently im playing at around 1600-1700 Elo testing stuff, not high but def shows that i know what i talk about.
The pro-tera crowd will dismiss all examples as just bad play. I don't like having to guess as to whether or not I can hit my opponent's pokemon with this attack. And yeah, that might be an uncommon example but it's something you have to have in the back of your mind every single game.there's this really funny fallacy I always see all over these threads and it's the idea that "competitiveness is not subjective"
just saying that something is uncompetitive because an interaction is possible in the game is not an objective statement
it's also not indicative of any deeper meaning.
nobody to my knowledge on either side of the argument has claimed everything is good playsThe pro-tera crowd will dismiss all examples as just bad play. I don't like having to guess as to whether or not I can hit my opponent's pokemon with this attack. And yeah, that might be an uncommon example but it's something you have to have in the back of your mind every single game.
That's not what I call a fun or skillful interaction.
I can use a level 1 Rattata and surprise someone who has never seen that strategy before. It doesn't make me or the strategy good.
I just wanna say, I know having two OU tiers for one generation is unheard of, particularly from a tournament planning perspective if we’re trying to treat them equally, but I think Tera and No Tera OU would be vastly different, but equally interesting and fun metas. I understand the logistical complaints council has with the idea, but is there really no world where this can happen?Query… why not just get objective data on whether it’s worth keeping Tera and non Tera by running an OU with and an OU without. This way people choose what they want, and you get to run Tera for a longer period of time to get a better understanding of how strategy changes
It might tell us what we don’t want to see , and that is that the Tera meta is likely to be wildly more popular. Although it does give an option for a non-Tera meta which can be the default option for competitive situations like tournaments.
Interestingly, we might find both meta games diverse in their own way. For example a Tera meta might make otherwise mediocre Pokémon viable. Whilst a non Tera meta might allow extreme threats that can take advantage of the mechanic able to be used
ok... but lets say their tera that you think "ah they are gonna tera since they are gonna use it to counter me" doesnt... and its just using as a stab boost and now they haven't tera since no point to and you just lost a mon on a 50/50. But then if ur an offense team and u have to bring in for ex. scizor vs iron valiant and u switch out assuming tera.... lets say they do but sd instead due to expecting a BP and being able to take advantage of it so now an offense team.... on the backfoot because scizor had to switch out assuming a def tera that was going to own it and now the team is in pretty deep shit... Just cuz u can predict the tera doesn't mean the opponent can't alsoIt's fairly easy to read when someone is going to Tera, and what they're going to Tera into already. The issues people have with the mechanic almost exclusively stem from a lack of familiarity with it or from a couple mons that abuse it.
see, the thing about saying "point 2 is false" is that there isn't any evidence that these pokemon are not broken on their own. at best, this point is unprovable for the pro ban argument, at worst it's provable that these pokemon would be broken anyways unless tera was banned franklyWhere is your evidence that any of these takes are true?
Gonna edit in some evidence of my own, but I didn’t want to let a post as toxic as this one just sit and fester.
edit is now in
Point 1 is unprovable as of right now so it can be discarded.
Point 2 is provably wrong. Just because no tiering action has been taken on mons like Dragonite, Roaring Moon, and Chi-Yu yet doesn’t make them balanced.
And we have usage stats out, so idk where you’re going with Point 3. Roaring Moon at #8? You think that would’ve happened in a no-Tera meta? How about Dragonite at #27, higher than mons like Dondozo and Ting-Lu? How about literally every argument about running specific defensive Tera types in order to answer offensive Tera mons? Arguing about how ‘centralizing’ it is can be difficult, but I can at least say with absolute certainty that it has had a MASSIVE impact on the meta.
Also y’all know where you can put this argument. To whoever said this first and put it in people’s minds as a legitimate point in pro-Tera’s favor, I hope the next time you try to microwave something it freezes.
Echoing this because I don’t want it getting lost in the weeds of a pretty long (and pretty good, not trying to diss you here lol) post. Once we start getting serious high-level play (particularly tournaments), surprising opponents with niche Tera types is sure to be an integral part of the metagame. This is also my main argument against Tera Preview, because I think the Tera guessing game is actually a good point of the mechanic.Please stop pretending like tera is easy to predict because people are automatically using the best/most logical tera type because its more convenient.
8 generations of OU or lower Dragonite beg to differsee, the thing about saying "point 2 is false" is that there isn't any evidence that these pokemon are not broken on their own.
Alright, fallacy man. Riddle me this. What, per say, is the definition of the phrase “argumentum ab auctoritate”?i'd again emphasize that we have things we can point to as evidence, because it's provable within this thread: the arguments and opinions of people who are highly experienced players
tiers with almost every defensive Pokemon in good stature that we no longer have or where dragonite didn't have its best ability8 generations of OU or lower Dragonite beg to differ
It’s arguably shed tail that makes Dragonite an insane threat right now, not Tera.8 generations of OU or lower Dragonite beg to differ
It’s both. Dragonite will be banned unless both of them are.It’s arguably shed tail that makes Dragonite an insane threat right now, not Tera.
Personally I think she’s tail is the biggest offender there. Multi scale + substitute is crazy strong, and once you get 2-3 dragon dances the game is probably over. Tera definitely makes that set even better, but I think dnite would still be one of the best sweepers in the game without itIt’s both. Dragonite will be banned unless both of them are.
Heaven forbid actually having to think about the game state, the potential Tera your opponent's wincon might be to stop being checked, and weigh the risk/reward of taking particular actions during a match.The pro-tera crowd will dismiss all examples as just bad play. I don't like having to guess as to whether or not I can hit my opponent's pokemon with this attack.
This is a stellar post, and I agree strongly with a lot of the points made. However, while your proposed solution is indeed a catch-all for most of the problematic Tera mons, I personally believe that it’s just a bit too complex for something that doesn’t solve the entire Tera problem in one fell swoop. Mons like Chi-Yu and Iron Valiant, like you yourself mentioned, are still problematic with Tera regardless, and because of that I just don’t see this being enough on its own. This is definitely a better solution than a lot of the ones proposed on this thread, but overall I still wouldn‘t prefer it over either extreme.What a trainwreck.
Pokemon Showdown and Smogon are different, albeit closely related entities. SV OU is not required to keep things legal if they are unhealthy. Please refer to this postSmogon has always been a Pokémon simulator that has aimed to ACCURATELY simulate Pokémon online battles.
How can we call Tera unhealthy when the game isn't even a month old? We're not talking about banning a Pokémon, we're talking about banning an entire mechanic that defines S/V as a whole. I think bans like these are genuinely toxic and restrict experimentation and creativity. We're literally just banning anything that could be seen as strong, instead of letting players and the game evolve.Pokemon Showdown and Smogon are different, albeit closely related entities. SV OU is not required to keep things legal if they are unhealthy. Please refer to this post
Keyword ”if”, man. Tera’s still right here. Calm down.How can we call Tera unhealthy when the game isn't even a month old?