I don't even remember what the original argument was. That's a little sad. :/Oh my god we're still doing quote wars about crappy comparisons? MOVE ON.
I don't even remember what the original argument was. That's a little sad. :/Oh my god we're still doing quote wars about crappy comparisons? MOVE ON.
You cannot ignore the consistency of Earthquake being upwards of 19-20% to surfs approximately 8%. This metagame hasn't changed much from the earlier periods even without Raikou. In fact, Earthquake would be used more now with Donphan, Dugtrio, and Rhyperior, wouldn't you think?The last stats were taken almost a year ago, unless I'm missing something.
Timid HP Grass:Eo Ut Mortus said:That's a gross exaggeration. Among other things, Milotic, special defensive Arcanine, and Azumarill can switch in, survive, and force Moltres out regardless of the presence of Stealth Rock on the field.
Restalk Weezing can counter Toxicroak, Leafeon, Sceptile, and Venusaur while it's asleep.....and Restalk Arcanine can counter those same threats....etcEo Ut Mortus said:Defensive teams rely on their counters to be awake to cover certain threats; utilizing RestTalk forces a team to weaken itself to certain threats, plus these Pokemon are shoddy counters at best to particular threats whilst asleep.
This is personal opinion, not fact. It is 100% irrelevant if I think Moltres is better than Venusaur or worse. The only thing that matter is that one of them is being proclaimed broken for reasons x and y, yet the other is equal or superior at x and y.Eo Ut Mortus said:Assuming Venusaur is better, then saying "Moltres has most of Venusaur's proclaimed 'broken' characteristics" does not prove anything. Why? Because it's either worse or incomparable. Proving X not broken makes the definitively worse Pokemon Y not broken; however, proving X not broken does not make the better Pokemon Y not broken.
Of course you can compare the broken characteristics alone. That's what's pushing this Pokemon over the edge. I'm not saying you can ignore the other aspects of the Pokemon, however; you can absolutely compare two characteristics. In this case, I'm comparing the reasons for Venusaur being broken in nominations of Venusaur to the same aspects of Moltres, and frankly Moltres is definitely holding its own.Venusaur said:One cannot also just look at the so-called "broken characteristics" by themselves. A full-blown analysis of the Pokemon in question should not be incorporated into a Pokemon's nomination. Just because such characteristics were not mentioned doesn't mean they don't hold any weight, especially when comparing two Pokemon.
Eo Ut Mortus said:Re: Stats. Stats are a direct measure of power if two Pokemon can be directly compared. I obviously don't believe that Moltres can be compared with Venusaur; therefore, I obviously don't think the stats are a valid representation of Venusaur's and Moltres's respective power, either. However, Heysup is attempting to compare the two, so I assumed that he assumed they could be directly compared; thus, I was incorporating the stats in my argument. Moltres has to actually be considered better than Venusaur (so if you're not actually trying to prove this, then your comparison is still invalid).
Heysup said:When you're looking to see how common something is, stats do apply.
When you're looking to see how powerful something is, stats do not apply.
Honestly, I'm not sure why you posted only that part. I am sure you know very well that by doing so you change the entire meaning of my post.
Assuming Venusaur is better, then saying "Moltres has most of Venusaur's proclaimed 'broken' characteristics" does not prove anything. Why? Because it's either worse or incomparable. Proving X not broken makes the definitively worse Pokemon Y not broken; however, proving X not broken does not make the better Pokemon Y not broken.
I don't know what you are referring to, but I'd like to remind you that if either discussion currently going on bothers you, you are free to disregard the posts being made. I mean, it's not as if any rules are being broken, and insults are certainly not being exchanged (which could be resolved by simply taking either debate to PM anyway). If you really wish to stop the Moltres vs. Venusaur comparison (or my criticism of Eo's statement) from continuing to be discussed, then you could introduce a new topic here to rejuvenate normal discussion. Until then, I think it's fine if it continues as is (again I'm not sure which discussion is bothering you, or maybe both are).Stop.
I've seen you use the transitive property to justify your position once before, but I'm still not understanding something here: exactly what is the decidedly-not-broken Moltres doing better than Venusaur that makes Venusaur also UU? Two of the most important points covered by the BL supporters are that A) it's versatile, which Moltres most definitely isn't, and B) Sleep Powder can disable its checks/counters.This is personal opinion, not fact. It is 100% irrelevant if I think Moltres is better than Venusaur or worse. The only thing that matter is that one of them is being proclaimed broken for reasons x and y, yet the other is equal or superior at x and y.
Consistently also depends on your team. You can easily go sleep Registeel and your SD Absol still won't sweep, or you can sleep Weezing and your NP Missy still won't sweep. I'm also surprised that QC removed RestTalk Arcanine when people are crying foul over Venusaur, too, but whatever. Like I said in my final post in the horrible Salamence thread (located here), incapacitating or severely damaging one Pokemon (Which your opponent GETS TO CHOOSE), does not necessarily equate to "Consistently creating opportunities for your teammates to sweep". Let's break down Venusaur the same way I broke down MixMence:yeah i'd like to point out that venusaur's ability to have a limited amount of initial switch-ins is in some way related to the support characteristics. i mentioned it in my nomination that there are only two viable initial switch ins to doesn't risk being feigned to sludge bomb or power whip and can take a sleep powder as well - these two guys are weezing and registeel. venusaur can consistently sleep powder almost the same two pokemon, which can then create a much easier sweep to the likes of nasty plot mismagius, sd absol, to name a few. the support says that if a pokemon is capable of consistently supporting another pokemon that would make it easier for another pokemon to sweep, then it is considered to be in the support characteristic.
Fine. Don't underestimate Jumpluff, though, she will make you trip your balls (I've stalled out more teams with Jumpluff than I have "Support Characteristic"ed with Venusaur, though).pre-answered questions:
"but wait, so sleeping a pokemon is considered support? insert x pokemon here, so i guess it's in the support characteristics!"
sleep is a great supporting move, probably one of the best. if you missed the above post, then you are missing one key word: consistency. unlike some sleep powder users like jumpluff, it does not hold venusaur's ability to draw in nearly two of the same pokemon. jumpluff is not remotely threatening, which is anything can take a sleep and it won't hold enough consistency to guarantee a sleeping registeel or weezing for nasty plot mismagius to sweep. (nasty plot mismagius is my primary example because it is one of the best sweepers with registeel sleeping).
No, it isn't. The Support Characteristic, in its purest form (Which you're using, by the way) is not affected by tier. It doesn't say "If a Pokemon is OU, the Support Characteristic doesn't apply". It doesn't matter that they are two completely different Pokemon, it matters that they end up doing what the Support Characteristic states that they do, and if you look at it from THAT perspective, Venusaur and Breloom have A LOT IN COMMON."why is breloom not uber then?"
that's dumb but i know someone will bring up breloom. i'm just going to say we are in two different metagames and although they are similar in grass-typing, they are two completely different pokemon.
Again, irrelevant. If they both end up doing what the Support Characteristic states it does, it should be banned (or not banned). Venusaur (Breloom) can put an opponent to sleep. Venusaur (Breloom) can poke a huge hole into the opponent's team with Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm and other moves (Seed Bomb, Focus Punch and other moves). I really hate it when people just point out some of the most irrelevant differences and home in on them while ignoring the big picture. Hey, Venusaur fits the Support Characteristic because it can run a bunch of sets!! Tell that to Wobbuffet (Yeh, I'm joking, but you get my point).venusaur runs a vast amount of viable sets, breloom runs physical
Grass/Fighting is a much better attacking type combo than Grass/Poison, wtf are you smoking. Focus Punch isn't exactly unreliable on Breloom either, since it gets one off a lot of the time. If you play OU, you really shouldn't be trying to sell that message, heh (Just a quite note, Breloom also has Superpower, Brick Break and Mach Punch if you don't like Focus Punch, just like how Venusaur also has Energy Ball and Power Whip if you don't like Leaf Storm).grass + poison is a very good attacking combo because it gains neutral coverage. (sludge bomb + leaf storm are great attacking moves to bather from the get go). breloom only has seed bomb and the unreliable focus punch.
oh yeah, one pokemon is in the uu tier, the other is in the ou tier. trying to justify a point by proving another pokemon in the ou tier is not going to get you anywhere imo
No, it isn't. The Support Characteristic, in its purest form (Which you're using, by the way) is not affected by tier. It doesn't say "If a Pokemon is OU, the Support Characteristic doesn't apply". It doesn't matter that they are two completely different Pokemon, it matters that they end up doing what the Support Characteristic states that they do, and if you look at it from THAT perspective, Venusaur and Breloom have A LOT IN COMMON.
are we forgetting the term sufficiently easier? these two pokemon i mention because they really only have a few amount of counters. mismagius is my primary example - she is only countered by registeel and spiritomb and if we want to get technical we can go to the lower ranks; drapion and skuntank counters her as well but they are lesser used. with registeel placed in a deep slumber, you would think that mismagius will sweep your team sufficiently easier with one of its best counters removed from the match.Consistently also depends on your team. You can easily go sleep Registeel and your SD Absol still won't sweep, or you can sleep Weezing and your NP Missy still won't sweep.
considering i wrote the set, i know how effective the set is. with the current metagame trend leaning towards the popularity of special venusaur, the effectiveness of that set has died. the resttalk set was used in the metagame where sd + power whip venusaur was extremely potent.I'm also surprised that QC removed RestTalk Arcanine when people are crying foul over Venusaur, too, but whatever. Like I said in my final post in the horrible Salamence thread (located here), incapacitating or severely damaging one Pokemon (Which your opponent GETS TO CHOOSE), does not necessarily equate to "Consistently creating opportunities for your teammates to sweep".
this is one of long post but i'll keep my response short and concise. you are overthinking this too much. you are stripping the definition of consistency to its flesh. we have no set stone percentage to what consistency is but experience speaks louder than percentages. if my venusaur is always sleeping the same two pokemon nearly every game i play, then i consider that consistent. the characteristics did not guarantee a scot free sweep, nor did i mention this once; however, it did say it will provide a sufficiently easier sweep for insert pokemon. in this case, one of very few of mismagius' hard counters are removed from the match and you really cannot ignore the fact that it will sweep easier now whether you have swellow in the wings or not. the very fact is, registeel is still asleep and swellow can easily be switched out on. with swellow dead, mismagius is still alive! and can still sweep sufficiently easier with registeel sleeping. thanks to venusaur's consistency to place nearly the same two pokemon every game, it will help me other pokemon sweep. we may view things differently, but i still think this is support.scenario
nah i don't underestimate it. it's potent for sure, just not my cup of tea pokemon and i win most games that have jumpluff on my opponent's side. its very very predictable.Fine. Don't underestimate Jumpluff, though, she will make you trip your balls (I've stalled out more teams with Jumpluff than I have "Support Characteristic"ed with Venusaur, though).
it is affected by the tier. we cannot compare two different tiers because the metagame trends are completely different. one has more steel-types, the other doesn't; one has more dragon-types, the other one doesn't. it's simple as that. while i will agree on the fact they can be similar in what they do, they are just not comparable due to different metagame trends.No, it isn't. The Support Characteristic, in its purest form (Which you're using, by the way) is not affected by tier. It doesn't say "If a Pokemon is OU, the Support Characteristic doesn't apply". It doesn't matter that they are two completely different Pokemon, it matters that they end up doing what the Support Characteristic states that they do, and if you look at it from THAT perspective, Venusaur and Breloom have A LOT IN COMMON.
it is relevant. it makes venusaur a better illustration of the support characteristics. it shows that he is more potent and definitely not one sided and can do plenty things outside of simply sleep powdering + leaf storming stuff. but i straw away from stiff comparisons between uu and ou pokemon, i just can't do it because the pokemon switching in are different.Again, irrelevant. If they both end up doing what the Support Characteristic states it does, it should be banned (or not banned). Venusaur (Breloom) can put an opponent to sleep.
sigh, this is why i don't compare two pokemon from two different tiers. which is why i am not responding to this. i don't care about breloom, i care about venusaur's performance in the uu tier, and the uu tier only. breloom being placed in comparison is completely arbitrary because the metagame trends are entirely different. i hate repeating myself. if you want to compare something, make it in the same tier so my arguments will actually have some substance.Venusaur (Breloom) can poke a huge hole into the opponent's team with Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm and other moves (Seed Bomb, Focus Punch and other moves). I really hate it when people just point out some of the most irrelevant differences and home in on them while ignoring the big picture. Hey, Venusaur fits the Support Characteristic because it can run a bunch of sets!! Tell that to Wobbuffet (Yeh, I'm joking, but you get my point).
the comparisons here are very broad. if you want a comparison, do exeggutor and venusaur - they both poke holes and sleep stuff. if you're going to respond with a breloom + venusaur comparison, i'd end it here right now. i'll be glad to justify the difference between exeggutor and venusaur however because they are in the same tier!Venusaur (Breloom) can poke a huge hole into the opponent's team with Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm and other moves (Seed Bomb, Focus Punch and other moves). I really hate it when people just point out some of the most irrelevant differences and home in on them while ignoring the big picture. Hey, Venusaur fits the Support Characteristic because it can run a bunch of sets!! Tell that to Wobbuffet (Yeh, I'm joking, but you get my point).
lol. do you see why i don't compare two pokemon in the tier? grass/fighting is a much better attacking combo but THERE IS NO GRASS/FIGHTING pokemon in the uu tier, which makes the point irrelevant. grass/poison is pathetic in the ou tier, but it is surprisingly amazing in the uu tier. focus punch is an unreliable move to use from the get-go, so its secondary stab move is pretty weak (80 bp).Grass/Fighting is a much better attacking type combo than Grass/Poison, wtf are you smoking. Focus Punch isn't exactly unreliable on Breloom either, since it gets one off a lot of the time. If you play OU, you really shouldn't be trying to sell that message, heh (Just a quite note, Breloom also has Superpower, Brick Break and Mach Punch if you don't like Focus Punch, just like how Venusaur also has Energy Ball and Power Whip if you don't like Leaf Storm).
SpD Weezing is a "catch-all" for Venusaur. It handles both Mixed LO and SD sets reasonably well. Drapion obviously lacks the ability to reliably handle SD versions. It removes the problem of predicting Venusaur's set incorrectly and giving it a turn to set up or hit you with a +2 Earthquake.Why do people even use Weezing when ResTalk Drapion is specially bulkier (70/75 vs 65/70), only slightly less physically bulky (110 vs 120), absorbs Toxic Spikes, can phaze, isn't set up bait for 100 different sweepers, and can take on other threatening special sweepers (Alakazam, Mismagius) so that its special defensive investment isn't wasted?
That's a rhetorical question, I know Weezing's pros as well - being immune to Spikes, being able to take on other physical sweepers such as Hitmonlee and Torterra, not being trapped by Dugtrio, and being a decent user of Will-o-Wisp. However, I've always found Drapion to be so much more useful for both taking on Venusaur and general team utility - the only Venusaur variant that troubles him is SD with Earthquake, and that set is walled by half the tier as it is. Whenever I've felt that I've needed to run a Weezing/Spiritomb combination to wall certain threats, I've just slapped on Drapion over their place and ended up with a free slot. Just felt I should point this out, as I've seen far fewer Drapion used in this fashion than I really feel I should, because it is an excellent Pokemon.
I'm not sure what HP Grass is intended to hit besides Regirock, which you aren't breaking lol, but HP Water can hit Aggron harder than your other attacks (even with Fire Blast).I don't know why you'd use HP Water when HP Grass gives you better SE coverage with Flamethrower, Sludge bomb, and Thunderbolt. I was considering using a Weezing like that (used one with HP Water, Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split and Sludge Bomb before to break Subperior), but an all out offensive set does look viable with that astounding coverage.