What's broken in Doubles?

this is something i feel like we should discuss before gen 6 rolls around and we all nominate stuff like shuckle (or seem like shuckles later on). i know smogon's philosophy on banning revolves around a pokemon that over-centralizing the game and bringing too much luck into the game (unless im getting this wrong), but what does this mean for doubles exactly? in doubles, everything is much, much more manageable so it could easily and rightfully be argued that 'oh, pokemon x isn't broken because we can easily handle it with move y, which is easy to fit on every team'. this most of the reason i think we should be discussing this, and i would greatly appreciate some input from people who have participated in the suspect process for singles.

also, feel free to use thundurus-i as an example, because it's basically the only thing i'd consider broken at this point in gen 5 doubles. keep in mind though that there will be no suspect testing until x/y are released.
 
Well, lets start by going through the various definitions of "broken":

Broken = "too good to pass up" - the idea that any team without a certain Pokemon/other game element can be improved by adding it. I don't like this definition, as under it Protect is broken, and possibly Fake Out and Intimidate too. I doubt Thundurus is broken under this definition, as other teams may require different or more specialised forms of support.
Broken = "too easy to use" - this is a bit better: timing Protects and outwitting your opponent requires skill. I would also say that Thundurus is very easy to use, just spam Thunder Wave on opposing sweepers and Taunt on opposing supporters.
Broken = "impossible to stop doing what it is supposed to do" - the argument used to ban Froslass from UU recently, and before that Deo-D from OU. Also the main reason for the discussion of U-Turn in singles - you can't stop it from winning a prediction war and switching into a counter. Apart from natural paralysis immunity/Lum Berry, all the ways of preventing paralysis are blocked by Prankster+Taunt (Safeguard, Substitute, Taunting Thundurus). So yeah, Thundurus can definitely cripple your entire team, and is broken on this score.
Broken = "overcentralising" - the metagame revolves significantly around the broken object and its counters. Well, Stealth Rock is broken in singles on this score, having developed counter-measures (Rapid Spin), counter-counter measures (spinblocking), counter-counter-counter measures (Foresight, Pursuit), and even counter-counter-counter-counter-measures (double ghost cores). Maybe the metagame is too young but a spike in Magic Coat and Mamoswine usage might convince me that Thundurus is overcentralising, and thus broken. The degree to which the recent Ubers suspect ladder revolved around Darkrai convinces me that, without Sleep Clause, sleep is broken (sorry VGC-ers, but in doubles you're even LESS likely to ever get a sleeping mon awake again).
Broken = "relies solely on luck" - not too much of this about, i could take arguments about Teeter Dance being broken. Luck-based stuff is mostly banned anyway - please add Brightpowder to future versions of Evasion Clause.

So, it's difficult to say. Is a broken Pokemon a Pokemon that displays all of these traits, or one particular trait, or a certain number of these traits? It is difficult to say. But I will say that it is VERY hard to stop Thundurus crippling most of the opposition - most of the time, you need good prediction (as with many things in doubles), and, at the end of the day, that often ends up being a coin-flip.
 
Last edited:
Well, the first thing I will say, Thundurus is not broken. Mamoswine can completely obliterate it, Safeguard and Taunt will cancel out its overall utility, and additional Rock-type weakness won't do it any favors. While it is certainly a nuisance to deal with and a good choice for any team, saying it is broken is the equivalent of saying Cresselia is broken, which is (hopefully) something no one agrees on.

The only thing I am a bit annoyed by in the current Smogon Doubles metagame is the "noob" use of things like Shaymin-Sky and Jirachi. By "noob" use, I mean new players simply spam Air Slash and Iron Head, relying on flinches to score wins. They do not use them for respective strengths, but for hax abuse, which is really the only issue I see atm.

The Smogon Doubles banlist could maybe use some revising too, though I can't really think of any specifics. Maybe unbanning Arceus-Poison (lol)? :p
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
The definition of a broken pokemon is simple. They over-centralize the metagame and if you don't carry a counter to this pokemon then you will lose. If the majority of the teams start running this diverse pokemon then it will need banning.
In doubles especially the last point is necessary. It must be able to support and hit like a truck in one pokemon to become broken, helping fellow sweepers sometimes and sweeping itself others. It can also be a defensive behemoth with very few ways to break it and a brilliant support movepool. For instance you can break Cresselia with something such as Escavalier, but you cannot if Cresselia could use eviolite etc. Changes in the metagame will cause Pokemon to be broken, likely movepool or ability changes, since nothing is broken in Doubles currently.
 
Last edited:
Thundurus is the closest thing we have to broken as far as individual mons are concerned, but it is easily beaten because if it opts for high speed, it is frail. Likewise, if it goes for bulk and relies on Prankster TWave to give it Pseudo Speed, it becomes bait for faster Pranksters to Taunt it into uselessness. It's also not Fake Out immune, Sleep immune, Follow Me immune, and it has an awful fear of TTar who usually doesn't give two shits about Paralysis except for Hax.

Overall, I see more things being broken in a Team or Partner setup than an individual Mon, like Weather abuse (TTar and Top, Excadrills best friend and worst nightmare at over 20% in 1850 stats says as much). Unfortunately, we can't give a definitive "broken" answer until the tier matures a bit more and the ladder stops being so piss poor.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Yeah, nothing seems to be too broken so far. Even the Ubers that were allowed down here suffer from having no spread moves (with the exception of Excadrill and Manaphy, who are heavily weather reliant) and are frail. Actually now that I look at it, what other Ubers look like they can fit down here?
 
Yeah, nothing seems to be too broken so far. Even the Ubers that were allowed down here suffer from having no spread moves (with the exception of Excadrill and Manaphy, who are heavily weather reliant) and are frail. Actually now that I look at it, what other Ubers look like they can fit down here?
Groudon would make Sun more dominant than it is and might actually be balanced.

Palkia is the same typing as Kindra, but without Swift Swim, it lacks the same offensive pressure.

Kyogre is a bit much for us with 2 very powerful Spreads.

Dialga is just a beast and I don't see it coming down. Same with Lugia, as it has speed, Multiscale and can paralyze an entire team almost as easily as Thundurus.

lol Arceus. Same with Giratina.

Ho-Oh might actually give us a better reason to run SR and spinners.
 
I think we should ban Slaking so no one will be able to use it In terms of banlists, everything is looking pretty good, there is absolutely nothing that should really be banned in terms of brokenness.

I don't see anything coming down either, Groudon would be overpowered due to massive bulk and base 150 attack with EQ and Rock Slide, the fact it spits in the faces of Rain teams makes it all the more scary. Sun is actually very underrated imo, it deserves more usage.
 
Last edited:
I suppose I should rephrase my question, then. What would constitute as broken in doubles? How would your definition of broken differ from singles?
 
I suppose I should rephrase my question, then. What would constitute as broken in doubles? How would your definition of broken differ from singles?
As noobcubed pointed out, there are a lot of different ways you could define "broken". From my experience, something is usually broken when it has too much power or consistency; Hitmontop, Cresselia, and Thundurus are S Rank in the viability rankings thread because they are incredibly consistent, always getting the job done. However, they are all clearly stoppable, which is the interesting thing about Doubles. Since two pokemon are always on the field, a lot of pokemon that would otherwise be OP can be stopped. From what the current Smogon Doubles metagame shows, only raw power can get something banned; the current banlist is composed entirely of BST giants like Groudon, Kyogre, Arceus, Dialga, and more, who just have too much bulk, power, and in Arceus's case, speed. I will be interested to see if Generation VI will introduce an exception to this, however.
 
I'll take Nollan's definition of brokenness as it seems to be a good one. Nothing is unstoppable in doubles as the environment within which the game is played (ie weather, speed control) is so dynamic, and nothing is broken under ALL circumstances (except maybe Thundy, but even then in Trick Room spamming Thunder Wave will only work against you). And, of course, since you have two opponents, you can always beat off a troublesome opponent with clever Protect/Follow Me/Fake Out usage etc.

If we're talking about currently banned mons, I really don't think Lugia would be broken (did anyone use it in the recent Doubles Ubers tourney? What was it like?) Multiscale and all that bulk looks frightening, but T-tar's and Thundurus's dominance of the metagame are issues for it (especially with sand breaking Multiscale for free). Apart from that, its support options aren't great, nowhere near on a plane with other bulky psychics, and 90 base attack/sp atk is far from terrifying. Once Lugia is Taunted you should probably be okay. TL;DR: Cresselia is nearly as bulky and not broken, and Lugia hasn't got the movepool Cress has.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I know this would be deviating from this thread's purpose, but I am intrigued as to what other Ubers can fit here. Obviously things like Kyogre, Dialga, Arceus and Mewtwo should stay the hell away, but things like Giratina or Lugia would shake up the meta (in a good way???). They're bulky as f**k, but Lugia would still compete with Cress in terms of movepool, Giratina-A would likely be meh, while Giratina-O would be pretty competent seeing as Shadow Force breaks through Protect.

My more broken proposal is Zekrom, which is a physical Dragon, and they are pretty stunted in Doubles since Outrage is unreliable, so in terms of Dragon attacks Zekrom is equal to Kyurem-B's 120 base Special Attack. It still has that Bolt Strike though, so I may be pushing it a bit far there.
 
If we're talking about currently banned mons, I really don't think Lugia would be broken (did anyone use it in the recent Doubles Ubers tourney? What was it like?)
Nollan used it. I used it (He stole my ideas I swear).

It's got 110 base Speed, access to SubRoost/TWave Multiscale with 106/130/154 Bulk. Just running max HP/Speed is enough to really fuck up the enemies team and would really be a big part of making Stall viable (it is in Uber Dubs).

Lugia would still compete with Cress in terms of movepool
Lugia has access to more reliable recovery options than Cress who has better overall bulk (120/120/130 vs 106/130/154) but Lugia's Multiscale and SubRoost make it shrug off super effective hits easily while Paralyzing everything. It also has a fantastic typing for this role, and an excellent Speed tier.


Lugia might be a tad bit much for Doubles.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Lugia has access to more reliable recovery options than Cress who has better overall bulk (120/120/130 vs 106/130/154) but Lugia's Multiscale and SubRoost make it shrug off super effective hits easily while Paralyzing everything. It also has a fantastic typing for this role, and an excellent Speed tier.

Lugia might be a tad bit much for Doubles.
Hmmm...true, high speed and recovery that not only isn't affected by weather, but can aslso remove weaknesses may be a bit much to handle. What of Giratina though? It is checked by the numerous Draco Meteors and Tyranitar already present in the tier, but Altered Tina can spread burns (as if physical attackers didn't have enough trouble) while being infuriating to KO, while Origin Tina can use Shadow Force to smash through Protects.
 
Giratina? lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 282-332 (56.06 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 463-546 (92.04 - 108.54%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (That's after a Swords Dance boost)

No thanks. That's worst than Cress, and it can go on the offense too.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Only Giratina-O would go offensive, Tina-A is barely stronger than Cress. Neither have that much support potential anyway, the only standouts being Will-o-Wisp and Tailwind. I think Giratina-A would not be doing too much in Doubles (burning everything would probably be its niche, akin to how Thundurus-I paralyzes everything but Tina lacks Prankster, speed and accuracy in exchange for monster bulk), but Tina-O has Levitate and perfect coverage, the downsides being average speed and cannot wield any other items like Gems or resist-berries.
 
Nollan used it. I used it (He stole my ideas I swear).
LIES! You stole my ideas >:[
Plus, I beat you with Safeguard Arcerus, cuz I'm just that good. :>


As for Giratina, it is far too OP for standard Doubles at least. The issue is in its great typing and bulk. While you could certainly switch in the threats Blank mentioned, it can Will O' Wisp before they can move, as such halving their offensive power. Giratina furthermore has access to Icy Wind, can use ChestoRest for recovery, gets Telepathy from DW, and has a ton of other options like Sunny Day and Thunder Wave. With some additional Heal Pulse support, you will never be able to take Giratina down. Lugia is similarly far too much for standard Doubles.

Everything that is left in Ubers has stats that are far too massive to put it in standard Doubles, the banlist is probably never going to get smaller.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ok, this is a thread that I think is definitely important, so I'll probably make a post answering the question later, but for now, please stop with any posts relating to potential drops from Ubers. The point of this thread, as lucariojr said, is to work out a definition of a broken threat for the Doubles metagame. It is not for discussing any drops from the Ubers tier. Posts relating to this are derailing the thread and aren't leading to any productive discussion (and are also saying downright false things in some cases. For example, Palkia is clearly much more offensively threatening than Kingdra). So yeah, if you're thinking about trying to use this thread to argue your case as to why Ho-Oh should be legalized or something, don't. Doubles is a very different game from singles, and the point of this thread is to figure out how we will address these differences in tiering policy going forward.

I know this would be deviating from this thread's purpose...
If this is going through your mind before you start to post, simply don't post about it. Either ask a tier leader to approve a thread where this would be on-topic, or just talk about it in #doubles, which is much more condusive to and appropriate for these sorts of discussions. Please try to make any future posts answer the question that lucariojr posed, which is "What would constitute as broken in doubles? How would your definition of broken differ from singles?". Thanks :)
 
Broken in a Metagame that plays by very different rules by comparison to the already established Singles Tiers is going to mean vastly different things. You can already see this by Tornadus-T, the once King of Rain, being stuck down into D Rank because its Speed doesn't matter as much here, or the unbanning and subsequent drop to C rank that Blaziken pulled.

While I agree that Overcentralization is a big deal, it is very difficult to make it occur in Doubles due to the sheer amount of strategies available that WORK. Not gimmicks either. There are a ton of legitimate Doubles strategies that work, even beyond what VGC vets have discovered already since '09 (they don't have to think about where KyuB or Viciniti fit on their teams) so naturally, our definitions of good, bad, and broken are going to shift towards our own needs.

Thankfully, we have a couple more months to flesh things out and get ready for Gen 6 in a more official capacity, but for now, we need to decide on what Broken means, not what exactly is broken.

That conversation can happen in October.
 

Mizuhime

Did I mistake you for a sign from God?
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
all ubers are uber for a reason, from high stats, to game changing abilities, letting any uber down would be a bad idea. Mewtwo has amazing speed and an extremely highe special attack. Ho-oh has god awful typing, but a move that can burn 50% of the time and a 154 spdef. Kyogre and Groundon both make their respected weathers insane. Arceus has base 120 across the board. Lugia would be damn near impossible to kill if you didn't double target. Diagla is the best tirkcroom setter par non. Palkia hits like a truck (also boosted by rain). Giratina has amazing defensive stats and is also extremely hard to kill. The list goes on and on. Letting any ubers down would be a very bad idea that would be very unhealthy for the metagam.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That conversation can happen in October.
Ok actually did you read what I just posted? The time for this conversation is now, not October. By that time, when we need to tier threats, if we don't have a roadmap of where this tier is going in regards to tiering it will end very poorly. Trying to put these sorts of discussions off until later is by no means an option, especially given how little time we have until Gen 6. There is literally no reason why this should be put off either, so I'm not sure what prompted this statement. This tier has been around for 8 months, and there are plenty of experienced players involved, so reaching some sort of consensus on this can definitely be achieved. As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure how those points are relevant. For example, you say that overcentralization is very difficult to achieve in Doubles, but that in no way answers the question. In fact, if it is hard to achieve, that would only serve to better indicate a broken threat if it's overcentralizing. So yeah, please try and keep all posts relevant to the question. Gen 6 is only two months away, plus this will be the first time a Smogon supported Doubles metagame will be officialized, so it's even more important to make a good showing and get this right.
 

Mizuhime

Did I mistake you for a sign from God?
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
and for the original question, there is nothing "broken" in Doubles. The one thing i would even consider broken is swagger liepard brings to much luck to the game. The definition of Broken in doubles is going to be far different from singles. Standard singles play, Broken is defined as something that is un manageable and the Pokemon can handle teams by its self. In Doubles that will never be true. Even something like Thundurus, who can slow swift swim users down, isn't broken in doubles. In high level play it's very centralizing but it's weak to very common attacking types in rock and ice. Which is why it doesn't find a spot on every team. Broken in Doubles, would be a Pokemon that can support its team with very little effort ( less than Cresselia ) something like Lugia or Girtina, amazing bulk and good movesets make them broken. Or being a giant offensive threat, Pokemon like Mewtwo and Kyogre comes to mind. Mewtwo has amazing speed, a great move pool and a high special attack. Well Kyogre has possibly one of the most powerful moves in all of Pokemon, good bulk, and a ability that supports its teammate without even trying. Really you would be a fool not to use these Pokemon on every team. I think that is the definition of broken
 
Last edited:

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Probably the only thing broken that comes to mind is Dark Void, but since that is banned, the playstyles we currently have seem to balance each other well. There's Tailwind, balance, Trick Room, Dual Screens, weather...all can potentially gain the edge over the other through various means. No playstyle seems to dominate, much less pokemon.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Not going to go in-depth here, since I am still undecided as to how we're going to tier doubles. Joim, others, and I would have to make up time for this discussion. I wanted to simply state this, though:

Doubles is a brand new format for Smogon. It's not simply a sub-branch of Singles, such as NU or LC - it's an entirely different beast of its own. When people are coming to play XY Doubles for the first time, they not only have to deal with the new XY additions, but they also must learn to play on a drastically different playing field. Unlike XY OU, I would personally recommend holding off on banning threats left and right at the very beginning, and allow some time for the playerbase and the metagame to grow and mature. Give people time to familiarize with Doubles and learn how to circumvent dangerous threats in this format. Unlike Singles, Doubles is very flexible in this regard, allowing you to cover up certain weaknesses of your team with tactical plays much more easily. This is why I didn't hesitate to free Ubers of BW OU, such as Shaymin-S, Manaphy, and Excadrill into BW Doubles, because I knew about Doubles's inherent ease in accommodating diverse tactics and threats beforehand.

Of course if there's an egregious threat that in everyone's mind deemed as highly problematic for the tier, we shouldn't hesitate to have an emergency suspect test and evaluate this suspect. However, I'd rather not we start off XY Doubles with the mindset of "we need to clean up this mess of a tier / eliminate anything that's remotely troublesome." Rather than disposing all the stuff into the dumpster, I'd rather we take time in sorting through XY Doubles, and learn to adapt to not only XY, but Doubles itself. There has not been anything like Doubles in the history of Smogon until now. Our community certainly needs to learn how to adapt to this format before we can figure out what we truly want from the metagame, and not end up removing powerful threats that could have been dealt with if we had given the metagame time to develop. Basically I dont want our new doubles community to be trigger-happy and end up banning Pokemon like Cresselia, a Pokemon that would surely cause many headaches for newcomers, but a threat that Doubles players have learned to accommodate in their teambuilding and strategy.

Of course nothing is set in stone, so ideas are welcome. As Audiosurfer said, as the first ever Official Doubles metagame in Smogon, we want to get this right. These are purely my thoughts - I haven't discussed this with Joim or anybody else yet (I only came up with this point a few hours ago) - so take this post with a grain of salt.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top