VGC 2017 Analysis Discussion Thread

This thread will be primarily for discussion of making a change to an uploaded analysis, making a case for a Pokemon to have an analysis, and possibly giving a Pokemon a revamp. You may also ask questions about an analysis here. This may include the following:
  • Possibly adding or updating a set
  • Changing or adding slashes to moves
  • Revamping an analysis to fit the metagame more
As long as what you're going to say entails something about the analysis themselves, you should probably post here!

When making a case for a Pokemon that's not listed in the reservations thread, make sure that it's: a) not horrible; b) isn't actually outclassed c) actually has a decent enough use. There will be times that we miss on a Pokemon in the reservations thread. If you think a Pokemon is worth it, post here! But make sure to have some backing to your claims.

Note: This is not the thread for reserving analyses! Go to this thread instead. Also, talks about analyses still being written up should go to their respective threads (If you're making a suggestion to Celesteela and it's still being written up, post in its thread)!

  • Alolan Ninetales' set was changed (24/01/2017)
  • Goodra's set was changed to utilise different EVs (03/03/2017)
  • Gigalith's set had eight missing EVs added (22/08/2017)
 
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Hey I'd like to make a case for Butterfree to have an analysis done. Though it's not something you see around on the ladder commonly, it has a niche as a Tailwind + Spore support Pokemon, which was good enough to reach Top 16 at San Jose. Excluding Smeargle, Butterfree is the only Pokemon with both Tailwind and a reliable sleep inducing move, while being faster than Spore users. It has other support options such as Rage Powder, Whirlwind, and String Shot to take control of the match. With good plays, good synergy, and good RNG, Butterfree can take games from people who least expect it.
 
If we take a spread from another player or website, how should credit be given, if at all?
As far as I'm aware, it's not required to give credit for EV spreads. If the spread is good enough that it's being included in the analysis, then it's likely that multiple sources will have reached the same conclusion independently. The only time I'd bring this up is if you're talking about that spread within the context of a broader metagame, to give more context to the reader. For example, "The spread of 170 X / 170 X / 170 X was popularized by Y at Z event, and should be considered should you decide to differ from the recommended spread for speed creep..." etc.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think this is the right place for this

I noticed the Nintales-Alola set was changed to:

-Blizzard
-Freeze-Dry
-Aurora Veil / Icy Wind
-Protect

In retrospect, slashing Icy Wind with Blizzard was probably not a good idea, but slashing it with Aurora Veil is definitely not a good idea simply because you'd be better off using Vanilluxe if you're not using Aurora Veil. If Icy Wind should be slashed anywhere, it should be slashed with Protect as that's definitely the most negotiable move on Ninetales, but if not there, a Moves or OO mention is fine, but the analysis shouldn't say Aurora Veil is optional.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
I think this is the right place for this

I noticed the Nintales-Alola set was changed to:

-Blizzard
-Freeze-Dry
-Aurora Veil / Icy Wind
-Protect

In retrospect, slashing Icy Wind with Blizzard was probably not a good idea, but slashing it with Aurora Veil is definitely not a good idea simply because you'd be better off using Vanilluxe if you're not using Aurora Veil. If Icy Wind should be slashed anywhere, it should be slashed with Protect as that's definitely the most negotiable move on Ninetales, but if not there, a Moves or OO mention is fine, but the analysis shouldn't say Aurora Veil is optional.
This was brought up on the vgc discord, blarajan asked for the set to be changed to what it is.

IMO aurora veil is optional for very bulky teams; vanilluxe's other issue is that it's slow and has to use a scarf. Ninetales is both naturally fast (and can outspeed things!) and use protect. You can icy wind things and then switch to blizzard to deal extra damage, as opposed to vanilluxe who has to switch out whenever it wants to change moves.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
This was brought up on the vgc discord, blarajan asked for the set to be changed to what it is.

IMO aurora veil is optional for very bulky teams; vanilluxe's other issue is that it's slow and has to use a scarf. Ninetales is both naturally fast (and can outspeed things!) and use protect. You can icy wind things and then switch to blizzard to deal extra damage, as opposed to vanilluxe who has to switch out whenever it wants to change moves.
I don't want to argue too much, but the reason I brought this up is because I personally have a very difficult time seeing Ninetales functioning without Aurora Veil. If I were in the VGC discord when this discussion was happening, I would have contributed these thoughts at the time, but while we're here talking about it, I think it's fair to at the very least slash Icy Wind with Protect as well because someone might need Icy Wind but can't drop Aurora Veil (and a Protect-less Ninetales has top cut at a major event so it's not like dropping Protect is putting a major dent in its viability).
 
I don't know if this is the correct place to ask or not, but when a Pokemon's dex page gets updated, is there a place to see the changes? For example, the other day Ninetales-Alola had a different moveset on the dex page than when I looked at it today.
 
I don't know if this is the correct place to ask or not, but when a Pokemon's dex page gets updated, is there a place to see the changes? For example, the other day Ninetales-Alola had a different moveset on the dex page than when I looked at it today.
As far as I can remember, the Alolan Ninetales analysis is the only one that's had a major set change made to it since upload. I'll make sure to keep this page better updated with that sort of information in future, though.

If you'd like to see the original analysis, the link is in the reservation thread.
 
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I believe that I have something to add to Nihilego's analysis. I ran a Grassy Seed Nihilego and it works wonders! I can confidently say that my set will work better than your standard Nihilego 99.8% of the time in practice... Just not on paper.
 
I believe that I have something to add to Nihilego's analysis. I ran a Grassy Seed Nihilego and it works wonders! I can confidently say that my set will work better than your standard Nihilego 99.8% of the time in practice... Just not on paper.
Sorry, not going to happen. Nihilego's base stats don't lend themselves to the use of Grassy Seed, and Focus Sash already allows it to survive any single attack. Even if you can cite an example of where +1 Nihilego can take multiple important physical attacks to justify Grassy Seed's use over Focus Sash, you'd then still have to do so without detracting EVs from Special Attack and Speed, as offense is Nihilego's primary function.
 
Can I request for someone to go ahead and clean up the Dhelmise analysis? I know that it's definitely not important, but its existence as incomplete just bugs me, and since it's near done, it wouldn't take much work at all (I assume, excluding the copy editing).
 
Can I request for someone to go ahead and clean up the Dhelmise analysis? I know that it's definitely not important, but its existence as incomplete just bugs me, and since it's near done, it wouldn't take much work at all (I assume, excluding the copy editing).
It's your individual responsibility to contact members of the QC Team if checks are happening more slowly than you'd like. Send one of them a polite PM here, or contact an online member on Showdown or Discord.
 
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Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Would it be ok to change goodra's EV spread to 252 HP / 164 Def / 52 SpA / 36 SpD / 4 Spe?
It:
- survives garchomp's tectonic rage
- survives two smart strikes from 252 kartana
- survives two moonblasts from modest lele
- has enough SpA to OHKO 4/0 gyarados
- still gets the 2HKOs it did before, minus the lele calc
- did well in a regional
 
Carbonific said:
It's your individual responsibility to contact members of the QC Team if checks are happening more slowly than you'd like. Send one of them a polite PM here, or contact an online member on Showdown or Discord.
Noted. I'll definitely do that later next week. Sorry for not knowing this beforehand >.>
 
Would it be ok to change goodra's EV spread to 252 HP / 164 Def / 52 SpA / 36 SpD / 4 Spe?
It:
- survives garchomp's tectonic rage
- survives two smart strikes from 252 kartana
- survives two moonblasts from modest lele
- has enough SpA to OHKO 4/0 gyarados
- still gets the 2HKOs it did before, minus the lele calc
- did well in a regional
Somewhat late response, but this change has now been made.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
iirc this is the right place to post this

Anyway, I think Talonflame should be added to the reservation list. Gale Wings did get hit badly in this generation, but it's one of the few Tailwind setters in this format, and one of just three to get priority Tailwind (the other two being Whimsicott and Murkrow). However, unlike the other two, Talonflame has an actual offensive presence, making it a niche pick for a team that wants a priority or very fast Tailwind setter that also doesn't suck when going on the offensive and can check Celesteela and Kartana. Talonflame also has a priority Z-Move in its arsenal, the only Pokemon in the whole game to get priority on a Z-Move, which gives it some pretty nice revenge killing capabilities; If Talonflame is coming in for the revenge kill as opposed to Gyarados coming in to get the Intimidate off, Supersonic Skystrike has a chance to OHKO Gyarados (depending on its EVs), while also just plain nuking weather abusers like Golduck and Lilligant.

A lot of things I mentioned about Talonflame are probably pushing it a bit and it definitely has some huge problems (Psychic Terrain for one is not something Talonflame wants to be in), but it definitely has a more notable niche than a few of the Pokemon that are on the reservation list.
 

Sondero

Don't you dare say you'd rather lose!
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Hello, I noticed that some VGC2017 sets are missing some EV, someone on discord kindly redirected me here.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/oranguru/ is missing 4 EV
http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/gigalith/vgc17/ is missing 4 EV in the first set, and 8 EV in the 2nd set

I don't really know if it's a mistake or we are suposed to dump the remaining EV elsewhere.
They're missing the 4 EVs, because no matter where you'd put them, it wouldn't make a difference (edit: that affects it positively), due to how stats are distributed at level 50. It may be possible that you could change around the EVs of the +nature stat, but that could change what scenes it lives and what it dies to.
Long Story short: it's not a simple as just putting +4EVs in HP, Def or Sp.def (or Atk in Gigalith's case/Sp.A in Oranguru's case)
 
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Merritt

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They're missing the 4 EVs, because no matter where you'd put them, it wouldn't make a difference (edit: that affects it positively), due to how stats are distributed at level 50. It may be possible that you could change around the EVs of the +nature stat, but that could change what scenes it lives and what it dies to.
Long Story short: it's not a simple as just putting +4EVs in HP, Def or Sp.def (or Atk in Gigalith's case/Sp.A in Oranguru's case)
This is correct but that being said, the Assault Vest Gigalith set actually is missing 8 EVs that could be put literally anywhere to be a flat +1 to any stat.
 
They're missing the 4 EVs, because no matter where you'd put them, it wouldn't make a difference (edit: that affects it positively), due to how stats are distributed at level 50. It may be possible that you could change around the EVs of the +nature stat, but that could change what scenes it lives and what it dies to.
Long Story short: it's not a simple as just putting +4EVs in HP, Def or Sp.def (or Atk in Gigalith's case/Sp.A in Oranguru's case)
Alright, I'm glad this is not a mistake.

Thank you.

This is correct but that being said, the Assault Vest Gigalith set actually is missing 8 EVs that could be put literally anywhere to be a flat +1 to any stat.
I check in the calculator, it doesnt matter for the sets missing 4 ev. But you do gain 1 stat point for the Assault Vest Gigalith. Now, is this extra point impactful or not? I don't know.
 
Thanks for your diligence! Sondero is correct that the four extra EVs wouldn't contribute any useful stat points to Oranguru or Gigalith's first set (this will almost always happen when investing in four stats instead of three or five, assuming perfect IVs). I've added the missing eight EVs to Gigalith's second set now.
 

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