Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Finchinator]

RANKINGS UPDATE

Rises

• 
  B+ to A-
• 
  B to B+
• 
  B to B+

Drops

• 
  B+ to B
• 
  B to B-
• 
  B to C+
• 
  C+ to C
• 
  C+ to C

Reasoning

• Hawlucha is one of the few Pokemon that rose this week, but it should be pretty self explanatory. Hawlucha is easily one of the scariest late game cleaners in the tier, and is finding more and more usage outside of Rain teams, especially with other Tapus than Koko. With Roost, it's able to set up on defensive Landorus-T and various other common Pokemon in the tier.
• Gliscor has slowly increased in popularity and overall viability ever since it got Defog in conjunction with Poison Heal. Fitting well onto balances and stallier teams, Gliscor is a great utility and has shown what it can do very well recently, thus earning a rise to B+.
• Mega Latios is pretty solid in the current metagame; Tyranitar and Heatran are everywhere, both of which are not switch-ins to Mega Latios due to it running Earthquake on almost every set. Combined this with the fact that Mega Latios pairs very well with Blacephalon and various other relevant Pokemon and it is safe to say that it's a very solid pick currently. One can say that it has become more than just a niche pick, which it started out as.
• Mew has not seen much usage at all and the phase where it skyrocketed in popularity is long gone. As of late, Mew only finds itself as a niche Defogger that is a product of role compression that simply is not necessary far more often than not. Moreover, its drop is probably overdue and is finally happening.
• Skarmory simply does not see anymore usage at all and with there being few consistent stalls at the moment, many of which not even including Skarmory itself, it should be no surprise that it is slowly falling down the rankings.
• Manaphy is a decent breaker with Tail Glow, but seeing how fast the tier is and how strong the tier is, it should be no surprise that everything is just overwhelming the little Water type win condition. Unless something changes, there really is not a ton of appeal to using Manaphy and this two-rank drop reflects that.
• Mega Camerupt, like Mew, had a phase months back where it saw decent usage and had a clear niche, but now it has had a swift fall from grace and there is not much appeal in using it right now, so it has dropped as well.
• Nihilego is always a weird Pokemon, but it finds itself walled by a lot of very common Pokemon and while it has a clear niche, that does not mean that there is much reason to use it and it often finds itself sitting on the shelf, which is reflected by this drop, too.

Here was the full voting slate from the council.

The following changes will be specifically focused on as discussion points for the next update:

• Kyurem-Black from A to A-
• Zapdos from B+ to A-
• Mega Venusaur from A- to B+

This thread is now open again -- post wisely.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Definitely gonna support Zapdos to A-. While it doesn't do overly well against trendy threats like Ttar or Heatran, Discharge makes it tricky for those mons to switch into it as neither appreciates being paralyzed. And that's the case for just about any Mon that the opponent would have to try and send in. Its three attack Roost set is super solid right now, especially with new sources of Defog and removal opening that opportunity up for Zapdos more. I've used Zapdos is many games and have had the thought of "wow he has no good switch-in right now" or "Zapdos eats this defensive core". Being able to roast Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex, while also blasting non-Crush Lando and Zygarde with HP Ice, is an awesome thing. That means the usual strategy of, bring in a Ground Mon on an Electric type, doesn't work because they can't just drop or force-out Zapdos. And that's without even mentioning all the things that we know Zapdos does defensively. Its Defog set is still very solid, but it's that three attack set that's really got me liking Zapdos in this meta.

Also #TeamInstinct

 

[NG Spencer]

Mega Venusaur should stay A-

Idk why venu would drop in the current meta when it appreciates many of the newer trends, if anything its more qualified to rise. I'd like to start with clearing up some misinformation in the post nomming it down, venu doesn't lose to magearna regardless of whether u choose hp fire or eq, av can sponge hp fire but does nothing back and loses 1v1, venu beats tapu koko even without sludge bomb, and ferrothorn is no answer to kartana who comes in and can defog away its hazards, set up sd or just attack unlike venu who ohkos it w hp fire while being able to effectively counter sd kart and doesn't mind its new toy in knock off unlike celesteela for example, also hp fire/eq/sludge/synth is a fine set on venu, as is leech>eq since rain is falling out of favor in the current meta with av bulu and ferro running more spdef not to mention toxapex.

Mvenu is a good mon since it can take on various threats in the meta including, but not limited to, magearna, tapu koko, ash gren (even if u forgo giga drain), kartana, tapu bulu, aoa mawile, keldeo, clefable, and can effectively counter ferrothorn and celesteela while preventing them from getting leech seed recovery. As for metagame trends that play into venus favor scarf magnezone trap steels so u can even forgo hp fire as it deals with sd kartana leaving u free to run quake to nail heatran for zone, while venu also appreciates it being a hard check to mpinsir. It has a great matchup vs offense right now, capable of walling 4-5 mons on the typical lando/av gear/ash gren or koko/kartana/mega/filler while the things that can kill it such as kyub or latios don't appreciate switching in as sludge bomb does a lot and poisons force them to heal much more often. Often times these teams just cannot break venu and u have 5 other slots to cover the few mons that can. It doesn't mind natures madness from av bulu as it just heals itself back to full with synthesis meaning its fine to switch repeatedly, so a teammate doesn't have to lose half its hp or u don't have to risk ur tran on a superpower. It still absorbs tspikes effectively and got better with the new defoggers usum brought us meaning its harder to keep hazards up so venu has an even easier time switching in.

 

[Marigold]

I support Zapdos B+ -> A-

With a recent surge of usage in Hawlucha, Pinsir, and especially Kartana... Zapdos has found itself easier to fit onto teams now as a defensive defogger/attacker of balance and bulky offense teams, or even a pivot for heavily offensive teams. It should be noted that Zapdos is a flexible Pokémon that can deal with trends that hinder it, namely the high Heatran and Ttar usage. For example...

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Defog
- Roost

An option I’ve been loving on zapdos recently is volt switch. This set functions as a hybrid between classic defensive Zapdos and Rotom-W, and fits better on offensive teams that appreciate a bulky pivot that can defog very reliably, while luring key threats. Zapdos still walls whatever it needs to, but capitalizes on the opponent going hard into Heatran, Tyranitar, or Chansey by volt switching away (similarly to how Rotom-W capitalizes on its counterplay). Volt switch also lets Zapdos escape Magma Storm, giving you initiative against a well-played Heatran at the cost of 30-40% of your health if the situation is dire. Additionally, volt switch Zapdos is very annoying for cele/pex + grass type to deal with, because you pivot on the grass type to bring in a breaker.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-680964965 Here’s a replay utilizing Zapdos’ effectiveness (sorry Blax, still love you <3) on a slightly modified version of Sorry’s SD Garchomp team (people should not sleep on Garchomp, it’s still very effective but that’s for another day). Volt switch lets me repeatedly pivot on Heatran and scout for Z moves, all while easing prediction. Zapdos still checks Lopunny-M and and Lando-T as it should. This is an example of how Zapdos can adapt to negative metagame trends that hinder it, while still rise in effectiveness with favourable trends.

Overall, Zapdos should rise because the threats that it checks rose in viability/usage, and it is flexible around negative trends that are supposed to hurt it.

 

[Empo]

Gonna keep it pretty short but i feel like i should say something

Zapdos should definitely raise as it's a very unique pokemon being able to switch to some common mons such as defensive landorus or even offensive ones like lopunny if rocks aren't up. its speed isn't even half bad since it can outspeed zygarde and force him out thanks to hp ice, while zygarde cannot kill it with a thousand arrows; discharge para is very annoying as you most of the time won't be risking paralysis or stuff, so that restricts the field to what effectively can switch into zap without risking anything (for instance, one of them is chansey). being able to learn defog let zapdos keep the rocks or any form of hazards off the field so it's a very good thing especially paired with pressure, so that zapdos can easily beat passive stealth rock users, for example clef without cm, as well as defensive landorust, and so on. this pokemon definitely deserves the a- spot, also because it's able to actually break the celepex or celeferro core (or at least to annoy it) which are both very common and dominant nowadays.

I don't like mega venu at all at the moment honestly, dropping it is fine in my opinion; first off it has seen zero usage these past months (but i know this isn't even an appropriate explanation). though, indeed, this pokemon isn't quite the best choice if you're looking at a grasstype as it's pressured by stuff that it's very common and around nowadays, such as band tyranitar, which is actually a pain if you're running a mega venusaur as synthesis doesn't recover 50% of health anymore but less (as you know) or just tapu lele which has been pretty dominant the past few months. the s rank toxapex completely walls it too, and even if venu carries leech seeds, toxapex will be able to fish for a burn and then switch out, and so on.

honestly i dont have other things to add as i'm not the type who writes long posts, but if you guys want to add something refering to my post feel free

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Kyurem Black should stay in A. It is still one of the most annoying Pokémon to switch into and can tear apart defensive cores spammed on the ladder such as celepex. Av Tapu Bulu being spammed on the ladder only helps Kyurem-B. Zapdos is increasing in usage, which Kyurem B can easily take advantage of. Magnezone support is great right now, which can trap Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, which leaves more room to run earth power. While Kartana being meta defining is annoying, Kartana can also defog away rocks for Kyurem B. Scarf Magnezone being great atm, Kartana is a bit eaisier to deal with. Oh and Koko + Kyurem-B b is still one of the best offensive cores in the game. Kyurem b should absolutely not drop.

 

[Meliodafu7]

B+ to A- : Totally Agree

I think Zapdos should raise, is one of the best checks to M-Pinsir who is arguably the best mega in the USM OU metagame, and mainly Hawlucha, who a lot of teams are running it right now. Hawlucha needs Stone Edge in order to break defensive Zapdos, who can stall it out with Pressure or, if Hawlucha runs some shit like Drain Punch/Roost, Zapdos can fish for the Discharge/Static para-hax, making it a lot easier to handle for the rest of the team. Also, its Roost + 3 attacks set is very threatening, making use of its excellent defensive typing while boasting great coverage to hit a myriad of threats. Of course its nasty SR weakness hinders it back, but I feel it's in the same level as many other A- threats.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

People are making very good points for Zapdos increased viability(especially considering Hawlucha spam), but I am curious about one thing: Why aren't people mentioning the usefulness of Static Zapdos here so much? A lot of people mention Discharge Paralysis being annoying but somewhat ignore Static(xept PrideMustang), which is one of the best way to punish U-turn spam on a multitude on Pokemon. Furthermore, you can utilize Static as a emergency sack option against mons like Mega Lopunny which get destroyed by having its speed halved.

Now don't get me wrong, Pressure isn't a bad ability, but to be quite honest, against which moves does Zapdos buy you a "PP-Stall" win in the current OU meta? Especially on more offensive Movesets.

Finally, Para-Hax can buy you turns in a pinch.

Static to me is a like a nice bonus ability to spread paralysis which shouldn't be underestimated and valued in the ranking of it, especially considering most Pokemon it checks (Kartana, Hawlucha, M-Pinsir) really don't like Paralysis afflicted to them.


Kyurem shouldn't drop, whenever it drops it is always a gamble if you are forced to switch in something simply because unlike Hoopa-U this thing can outspeed a lot of important things and simply destroy you with a great mixed moveset, heck it can even carry LO HP Fire randomly/viably and destroy your Steel Types. Basically nothing important changed for Kyurem Black for it not to be viable.
(You could even argue to run Chople Berry to deal with Focus Blast, Keldeo, Hawlucha, Sacred Sword Kartana etc. in the current metagame)

 

[Finchinator]

While I'm at it, I would like to also make a few nominations -- Kyurem-Black from A to A-, Blacephalon from A- to B+, and Mimikyu from B- to C+.

from A to A-

Honestly, Kyurem-Black is by no means a "bad" or even necessarily much worse Pokemon in the current metagame than it was before, but it clearly has lost a lot of popularity and ability to fit onto teams over the past month or two. While the increase in viable Defog users is admittedly beneficial for the Stealth Rock weak breaker, the previously dominant core of Tapu Koko + Kyurem-Black has taken a significant hit over time. I feel like some of the main reasons as to why it is falling a bit in popularity are competition and metagame trends. The former mostly is the fact that there are so many other solid Z move users out there, with SD Kartana being all over the place, Z Heatran rising quite a bit in popularity, and conventional picks like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Volcarona, Magearna, etc. also still being relatively popular with a Z crystal equipped. The LO set is, of course, still viable, but I feel it has always been a bit less potent as it loses the nuke factor, relies a bit more upon Terrain support, and can be walled by a few more Pokemon (or forced to recover quicker). As for metagame trends, the metagame has gotten a bit quicker on the offensive front whereas the bulkier side has integrated some decent counterplay to Kyurem-Black over time, in terms of consistent hazard play (i.e: rocks almost always being up), more Tyranitar, Clefable and Heatran to situationally check it, and Toxapex running Toxic more often to directly whittle Kyurem-Black. Overall, Kyurem-Black is still solid, imo, but it has taken a bit of a hit and putting it in a sub-tier alongside prominent Pokemon such as Clefable and Tapu Bulu or devastating win conditions such as Volcarona simply does not add up -- it fits more in a solid, but not outstanding or remotely metagame defining sub-tier such as A- with dudes like Mega Pinsir, imo.

from A- to B+

The clown hype is absolutely absurd in this thread, to be honest. I really cannot believe that we had to vote for it to potentially go up to A because some people in this thread were so hellbent on it actually being good. In my opinion, Blacephalon is pretty hit-or-miss and the opportunity cost of using it as opposed to something that is more consistent with an actual defensive presence is pretty huge in a metagame with Tyranitar and Toxapex practically on every other team. People like to say "oh, it's so good in the other match-ups" to the extent that it makes up for it and I mean yea it is effective, but there is still decent checks to it here and there, most of them offensive in nature. I feel like the new toy factor behind it is fully warn-off and the true colors of Blacephalon as a fairly mediocre addition to the metagame that will be good enough to hang in OU by usage, but not all too much better are starting to set in. I do not consider Blacephalon remotely top tier to the extent that it can fit into A like many propose and I think even A- is a stretch just because it sorta is defined by a weird, niche role as opposed to a consistent spot on teams due to how hit-or-miss it really is, as I said before. Like shit man, if +0 Adamant Mimikyu can kill you from full with Shadow Sneak 90% of the time and you're not even 4x weak to it and you want to be taken seriously in this tier, you have to have an insane and consistent upside offensively -- like Kartana does to make up for horrendous special bulk -- and it simply does not have it all there for the aforementioned reasons. Overall, Blacephalon is just a really average Pokemon with a lot of downside that so many posters in this thread either understated or completely ignored and I think it stands out in A- as one of the most inconsistent Pokemon in that sub-tier and I feel that B+ fits it better overall.

from B- to honestly unrank this bitch C+

Mimikyu is awful -- this shit's too weak and it has a godsend ability yet it fails to cash in far more often than not. It is an excuse for a check-all that gets slapped onto poorly constructed teams or cheese in order to manipulate certain scenarios and really should not be used on any serious teams. Therefore, I would like it to not be remotely associated with the B rank/any of its sub-ranks! I could elaborate more, but I feel like enough people will get why Mimikyu is just bad and should never really have been this high.

 

[robofiend]

Nominating Buzzwole -> C / C+ from Unranked

This Mon can safely switch in on a number of common meta threats and proceed to rip open the opponent's team through the use of SubPunch. Mons included:

Buzzwole's most notable counters are

. Fortunately, however, Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir aren't difficult to wear down and Clefable's usage is comparatively low thanks to its competition with many other Fairy types for a team slot. Ice Punch is also an option, which makes most Landorus-T sets set up fodder, but in exchange, it opens Buzzwole up to a number of different checks

Here are two high ladder replays demonstrating Buzzwole's ability to use Mons commonly found on Bulky Offense builds to set up free Substitutes and dish out high damage, if not get outright free kills: First. Second - Have since edited a typo

Out of curiosity, could you link the set you run on Buzz? What about Poison Jab? It provides decent coverage on things that might think they have a free swap in and it has that nice 30% chance to poison Landorus-T, Pinsir, Zapdos, or Hawlucha on the switch. It also gives you an instant kill against all the fast revenge killers that might come in after you nuke a wall.

Calcs

184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 170-202 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
184+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

To add to this, I made a Buzzwole team too and I've been really pleased with it. The amount of synergy it has with other top pokemon is of note.
- You can use Bulu to lure Ferro/Scizor get double recovery or Magearna to protect you from Lele
- You can use Magearna or Koko to get free switch ins with Volt Switch/U-Turn and add a Flying resist to your team
- You can use Lele, HP Ground Volcarona, or Choice Specs Koko without fear that a balance team with Chansey will ruin your day
- You can use Zygarde chip Landorus-T and clear some of the things that Buzzwole hates like fast Heatran, Zapdos, Gren-Ash, M-Sableye, and pretty much anything else that Buzz can't handle

The downsides:
- Buzz dies to special attackers, particularly Lele, Latios, Megazam, Megazard, Encore Lopunny, Diancie, Koko, Volcarona, Zapdos, fast Heatran, and pretty much anything else under the sun when it doesn't have a sub up and can't swap. It's god awful SpDef is simply a liability. Subpunch comes with a caveat: it's not useful unless you've got your opponent cornered, and that's not a given in the current metagame. Psychic/Fairy/Fire/Flying types are all major offensive forces and Subpunch Buzz simply can't handle offense: it needs a lot of backup from teammates. That itself isn't crippling but it comes with the responsibility of having phasers and foggers available to keep enemies from getting out of hand.
- Buzz also dies to physical offense: Landorus-T, M/Gyara, (Mega) Tyranitar, Hawlucha, M-Pinsir, M-Medicham and host of other top tier physical attackers have the edge on it 1v1

TL;DR C rank is fine, C+ might be ok, but the fact that so many offensive pokes can stop Subpunch from dealing significant damage might keep it out of range

 

[BlueLobster]

Kyurem-B to A-: Pretty much neutral on this, as I haven't really used it recently, but I don't think too much has changed for it really to the point where it needs to drop, so I'd lean to keep it where it is, but idc really.
Zapdos to A-: This thing should definitely rise. It is one of the most annoying mons in the tier IMO, it walls the extremely popular Hawlucha and can be tailored to your needs so easily. It canparalysis better than any other mon with discharge + static, has great coverage due to access to heat wave which gives it a great 3 attacks + roost set, can defog. It also provides a ground immunity that can threaten the common ground types due to its fire + ice coverage and is an all round solid pick on balanced or bulky offensive teams that is gaining popularity due to some fortunate metagame trends for it.
MegaVenu to B+: Part of me thinks "yeah, drop this" due to the rise in mind that threaten it such as hawlucha, but then you realise that, unlike similar mons like tangrowth, it threatens them back with a reasonably powerful sludge bomb, which means it isn't safe for Hawlucha to set up on it, lele to switch in to it etc. It also still checks things like Koko and Kartana (if hp fire and even if not what can it do to you) which as still as popular as ever and show no signs of dropping, and has a free slot to lure in stuff like heatran with earthquake if you need it to, or it can just go for leech seed if that benefits you more. In general I still think it warrants it's rank, even if it is a little worse than it was before, as it is still above the stuff in B+.
Blacephalon to B+: I've said this was overhyped trash from the start. It's bad matchups are more frequent than its good ones, and even on a bad matchup is is very easy to wear down due to SR weakness and abysmal bulk so that it can't even switch in to most resisted hits when rocks are up. Ttar and Pex completely wall it, and the people who say "but specs hp ground 2hkos most ttar" don't seem to realise as the blace player you have to predict perfectly to avoid being killed by pursuit. I think I've lost due to this mon at most three times since the start of usum, with one of those being a misplay and the other being because it was a weird lure set with will-o-wisp which randomly screwed me over. It rarely pulls it's weight and certainly not often enough for it to deserve a place in the A ranks. Move this overhyped trash down ASAP please.
Mimikyu to C+: Agreed. I lose more because I'm using this than because my opponent is. It's just so pitifully weak than even hyper offense often can deal with its +2 shadow sneaks. It's screwed by lele if adamant, as it outspeed and makes sneak worthless. Shadow claw is weak and even it's Z-move struggles to break fatter checks. Honestly, this was made relevant due to spin blocking on webs relatively well and cheesing through crap that's set up that, as Finch pointed out, only sweeps the mimikyu users team because it's lazily built with mimikyu shoved on to patch up a major weakness to a sweeper. This thing doesn't have a place outside of webs IMO and it's not even that amazing on it, so yeah it really should drop.

Talking of webs, my own nom:
Shuckle from C+ --> C/C-

This is worse than Araquanid as a webs setter. It's easy to take advantage of if you out predict the encore, has no offensive utility and it is far easier to keep its hazards up than araquanids, as you can just defog on it with anything, while Araquanid threatens stuff with a decently powerful liquidation. I don't think I'd ever choose to use Shuckle now we have webs setters that aren't pure trash, as it's just bad at its role. Sure it has SR over it, hence why I'm not saying completely unranked Shuckle, but its not hard to dump SR on something like SD lando on a webs team and even then Shuckle only ever gets the free turns it needs to do both if your opponent wants it to stay alive to defog on it. It isn't on the level of Araquanid so doesn't deserve to share it's rank IMO.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Blacephalon to B+: I've said this was overhyped trash from the start. It's bad matchups are more frequent than its good ones, and even on a bad matchup is is very easy to wear down due to SR weakness and abysmal bulk so that it can't even switch in to most resisted hits when rocks are up. Ttar and Pex completely wall it,
Friendly reminder that choice specs shadow ball can 2HKO Toxapex with rocks.
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I actually do think that Blacephalon should drop, but I think that people are posting the wrong reasons why it should. I think Blacephalon should drop because it needs more support such as ttar lures and hazard control than the mons in A- without significantly higher reward than them. Just because Latios loses to Tyranitar doesn’t mean its bad. In fact, Latios has a lot more problems than just tyranitar, unlike Blacephalon which has 2 counters in the tier. Latios has to deal with the Omnipresent steel type and Fairy types as well as Tyranitar, yet nobody is nomming it down to B+ and calling it trash.
Edit: Unlike Blacephalon, Mimikyu deserves all the hate it gets. The only time you ever see outside of the absolute bottom of the ladder is in HO teams as a cleaner. Mimikyu is not a very consistent cleaner however because of how weak it is. There are plenty of Pokémon who can take a admant +2 Shadow Sneak coming off of 90 base attack. I have yet to see a good team that Mimikyu actually poses a threat to.
Mimikyu to C+: Agree. I could honestly see it in C with the arguments that I and others put up.

 

[BlueLobster]

Blacephalon to B+: I've said this was overhyped trash from the start. It's bad matchups are more frequent than its good ones, and even on a bad matchup is is very easy to wear down due to SR weakness and abysmal bulk so that it can't even switch in to most resisted hits when rocks are up. Ttar and Pex completely wall it,
Friendly reminder that choice specs shadow ball can 2HKO Toxapex with rocks.
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I actually do think that Blacephalon should drop, but I think that people are posting the wrong reasons why it should. I think Blacephalon should drop because it needs more support such as ttar lures and hazard control than the mons in A- without significantly higher reward than them. Just because Latios loses to Tyranitar doesn’t mean its bad. In fact, Latios has a lot more problems than just tyranitar, unlike Blacephalon which has 2 counters in the tier. Latios has to deal with the Omnipresent steel type and Fairy types as well as Tyranitar, yet nobody is nomming it down to B+ and calling it trash.

I apologize for the Pex mishap, I was thinking of the scarf set at the time, although it can still pose a problem for specs as it can switch in to scout the move and then switch out again to regen off the damage. While it may be true that latios does have more checks than Blace does, it also has far more utility, having defog as well as a ground immunity (I am aware Blace also has immunities, but they are far less useful as ground is a far more common offensive type than fighting/normal), and the rising popularity of mega latios makes ttar far more scared to switch in than against Blace, which has to lock itself into hp ground to touch it. Blace, meanwhile, has very little defensive utility and is certainly not used because of it, as latios is. It's a bit silly to compare them really as ones sole purpose is to break through fatter teams or if scarf just be a fast offensive presence while the other is mostly used for hazard control or as a lure and has a reasonable offensive presence on top of that. The issue with Blace is that it needs defog support and even with that still has ttar as a major issue and then, dependent on its set, still has other smaller issues like ashgren or pex for scarf or almost anything faster than it due to its trash bulk. It's not bad, it's just not deserving of A- IMO.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

I apologize for the Pex mishap, I was thinking of the scarf set at the time, although it can still pose a problem for specs as it can switch in to scout the move and then switch out again to regen off the damage. While it may be true that latios does have more checks than Blace does, it also has far more utility, having defog as well as a ground immunity (I am aware Blace also has immunities, but they are far less useful as ground is a far more common offensive type than fighting/normal), and the rising popularity of mega latios makes ttar far more scared to switch in than against Blace, which has to lock itself into hp ground to touch it. Blace, meanwhile, has very little defensive utility and is certainly not used because of it, as latios is. It's a bit silly to compare them really as ones sole purpose is to break through fatter teams or if scarf just be a fast offensive presence while the other is mostly used for hazard control or as a lure and has a reasonable offensive presence on top of that. The issue with Blace is that it needs defog support and even with that still has ttar as a major issue and then, dependent on its set, still has other smaller issues like ashgren or pex for scarf or almost anything faster than it due to its trash bulk. It's not bad, it's just not deserving of A- IMO.

You are absolutely right that Latios and Blacephalon aren’t really comparable; I was just trying to say that just because something loses to tyranitar doesn’t mean it’s bad. What I was saying in my post was that I don’t think Blacephalon losing to ttar is a good argument for it to drop, rather, it should drop because it requires more support than the rest of A- without a substantially higher reward.
Edit: Going to echo this nomination.

Charizard Y to C
Yes, I know it has dropped 4 subranks, But C+ honestly oversells this mon. It loses to pretty much every viable play style right now. Balance and Stall have toxapex, chansey, and Mantine, Zard Y is complete Pelipper bait against rain, HO and regular offense have all the tools to offensively pressure charizard. and BO often has Toxapex too. They can also offensively pressure Zard Y too. Zard Y only fits onto one play style, which just so happens to be one of the worst playstyles atm. In what world is this thing as good as Mega Camel and Volcanion, two sitouantional But deadly balance breakers, and basically the rest of C+ too. To sum it up, Zard Y should drop as it’s pretty much deadweight against every viable play style right now, and it should not be ranked with Araquanid and Volcanion, it’s more on par with mons like Mega altaria.
I will also support snorlax getting ranked.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

Nominating Buzzwole -> C / C+ from Unranked

This Mon can safely switch in on a number of common meta threats and proceed to rip open the opponent's team through the use of SubPunch. Mons included:

Buzzwole's most notable counters are

. Fortunately, however, Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir aren't difficult to wear down and Clefable's usage is comparatively low thanks to its competition with many other Fairy types for a team slot. Ice Punch is also an option, which makes most Landorus-T sets set up fodder, but in exchange, it opens Buzzwole up to a number of different checks

Here are two high ladder replays demonstrating Buzzwole's ability to use Mons commonly found on Bulky Offense builds to set up free Substitutes and dish out high damage, if not get outright free kills: First. Second - Have since edited a typo

I agree with this. Buzzwole may not like all of the fairies and flying types in the meta ( Hawluncha, the Tapus or the counters you listed ), but that move pool is extremely vast and as you said before, it can run a good amount of sets. Beast Boost is also a good ability on it, it can become even more of a tank or stronger if it gets a kill. When using it, it should never be swapped in a fast Pokemon that it is weak to.
+1 252+ Atk Buzzwole Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 195+ Def Ferrothorn: 354-416 (100.5 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 326-386 (77.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 330-390 (78.9 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I'm at it, I would like to also make a few nominations -- Kyurem-Black from A to A-, Blacephalon from A- to B+, and Mimikyu from B- to C+.

from A to A-

Honestly, Kyurem-Black is by no means a "bad" or even necessarily much worse Pokemon in the current metagame than it was before, but it clearly has lost a lot of popularity and ability to fit onto teams over the past month or two. While the increase in viable Defog users is admittedly beneficial for the Stealth Rock weak breaker, the previously dominant core of Tapu Koko + Kyurem-Black has taken a significant hit over time. I feel like some of the main reasons as to why it is falling a bit in popularity are competition and metagame trends. The former mostly is the fact that there are so many other solid Z move users out there, with SD Kartana being all over the place, Z Heatran rising quite a bit in popularity, and conventional picks like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Volcarona, Magearna, etc. also still being relatively popular with a Z crystal equipped. The LO set is, of course, still viable, but I feel it has always been a bit less potent as it loses the nuke factor, relies a bit more upon Terrain support, and can be walled by a few more Pokemon (or forced to recover quicker). As for metagame trends, the metagame has gotten a bit quicker on the offensive front whereas the bulkier side has integrated some decent counterplay to Kyurem-Black over time, in terms of consistent hazard play (i.e: rocks almost always being up), more Tyranitar, Clefable and Heatran to situationally check it, and Toxapex running Toxic more often to directly whittle Kyurem-Black. Overall, Kyurem-Black is still solid, imo, but it has taken a bit of a hit and putting it in a sub-tier alongside prominent Pokemon such as Clefable and Tapu Bulu or devastating win conditions such as Volcarona simply does not add up -- it fits more in a solid, but not outstanding or remotely metagame defining sub-tier such as A- with dudes like Mega Pinsir, imo.

from A- to B+

The clown hype is absolutely absurd in this thread, to be honest. I really cannot believe that we had to vote for it to potentially go up to A because some people in this thread were so hellbent on it actually being good. In my opinion, Blacephalon is pretty hit-or-miss and the opportunity cost of using it as opposed to something that is more consistent with an actual defensive presence is pretty huge in a metagame with Tyranitar and Toxapex practically on every other team. People like to say "oh, it's so good in the other match-ups" to the extent that it makes up for it and I mean yea it is effective, but there is still decent checks to it here and there, most of them offensive in nature. I feel like the new toy factor behind it is fully warn-off and the true colors of Blacephalon as a fairly mediocre addition to the metagame that will be good enough to hang in OU by usage, but not all too much better are starting to set in. I do not consider Blacephalon remotely top tier to the extent that it can fit into A like many propose and I think even A- is a stretch just because it sorta is defined by a weird, niche role as opposed to a consistent spot on teams due to how hit-or-miss it really is, as I said before. Like shit man, if +0 Adamant Mimikyu can kill you from full with Shadow Sneak 90% of the time and you're not even 4x weak to it and you want to be taken seriously in this tier, you have to have an insane and consistent upside offensively -- like Kartana does to make up for horrendous special bulk -- and it simply does not have it all there for the aforementioned reasons. Overall, Blacephalon is just a really average Pokemon with a lot of downside that so many posters in this thread either understated or completely ignored and I think it stands out in A- as one of the most inconsistent Pokemon in that sub-tier and I feel that B+ fits it better overall.

from B- to honestly unrank this bitch C+

Mimikyu is awful -- this shit's too weak and it has a godsend ability yet it fails to cash in far more often than not. It is an excuse for a check-all that gets slapped onto poorly constructed teams or cheese in order to manipulate certain scenarios and really should not be used on any serious teams. Therefore, I would like it to not be remotely associated with the B rank/any of its sub-ranks! I could elaborate more, but I feel like enough people will get why Mimikyu is just bad and should never really have been this high.

I know this is too simple: but I agree with all of these nominations. I am glad someone said these.

 

[wheitron]

Blacephalon to B+ -> agreed

This Mon sounds great in paper, high spa, decent speed, decent atack, good dual stab and 3 diferent sets ( scarf, ghostium, specs), i legit thought this mon was complete jackshit, but i decided to test it out in the last week to see how it did, and honestly, its garbage. The point about it is : it cant really break, becuz its so frail to the point it cant switchin to any atacks at all, as even resisted hits will do a load of damage, and i aways feel like that in order for this mons scarf set to sweep/revenge kill, its gotta either have a load of suport from hazards and get the opp worn down, or lock himself into fire blast, which if ur not so lucky of a man isnt quite optimal, what i wanted to say with this is : with scarf it cant quite OHKO mons, even at +1 u can still find checks for it depending on the move he locks into cuz shadow ball is not the greatest stab of em all and he is still oustped by common scarfer kartana. Ghostium Z is imo a great set vs stall, but thats all, and its still gotta be well played to win vs it.

Well, these were my thoughts after using this mon, and in conclusion, its totally not deserving of a A- rank at all, and was only putted there due to new toy syndrome. Get this man down to B+

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Kyurem A to A-: Agree
Contrary to most opinions rn, i believe Kyurem B should drop. It gets destroyed by Kartana, who has seen much more usage and viability lately, and things like Bisharp resist both of it's stabs. Imo it should definitely drop but idk what everyone else thinks.

 

[thesecondbest]

Kyurem A to A-: Agree
Contrary to most opinions rn, i believe Kyurem B should drop. It gets destroyed by Kartana, who has seen much more usage and viability lately, and things like Bisharp resist both of it's stabs. Imo it should definitely drop but idk what everyone else thinks.

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 252-298 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 273-322 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It actually beats most Kart 1v1 as they run defog over smart strike nowadays
Plus KB can check scarf locked leaf blade karts. Also Bisharp dies to life orb earth power from even 0 spa versions:
0 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 263-309 (97 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't drop it, or at least don't drop it for your reasons

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Kyurem A to A-: Agree
Contrary to most opinions rn, i believe Kyurem B should drop. It gets destroyed by Kartana, who has seen much more usage and viability lately, and things like Bisharp resist both of it's stabs. Imo it should definitely drop but idk what everyone else thinks.

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 252-298 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 334-394 (128.9 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(kyub calc doesn't matter, just want to show all Kartana die)

The point i want to make is that Kartana can't even OHKO Kyurem Black while it always dies if latter is at full health. That's what is so scary about it, I honestly think Kyurem Black can simply trade with literally anything in OU with the exception of Lele

For me an A Mon always needs a good amount of preperation and "respect" while playing, and Kyurem definitely doesn't feel like a Mon that should be A-, after all: It deals with both S rank mons by itself AND it is very strong. That sounds like a A mon to me personally.

Edit: Greninja'd

 

[Dreadfury]

I'm gonna refrain from talking about Blacephalon much. I'll admit I kinda overhyped it a lot but I still don't think it's quite bad enough to be considered B+ since it still happens to be quite versatile and it still poses a massive threat to teams that don't run Tyranitar. A lot of teams that can deal with a Specs or Scarf (don't use Scarf btw) variant of Blacephalon generally aren't fully prepared for the threat of a Sub+CM+Ghostium variant. It absolutely requires a bit more support to function really effectively but it's still something that you need to be a bit wary of even during the teambuilding process. I don't feel like it's on the level of the majority of the things in A-, but I'd also argue it's a lot more immediately threatening than most of the stuff in B+ since its checks and counters are extremely limited.

As for Kyurem-B? I also don't think metagame trends have turned against it to the point where it should drop from A. Despite Kartana's surge in popularity negatively affecting it to an extent, Kartana also makes for a great partner since it can run Defog to keep Kyurem-B healthy. Magnezone becoming a bit better also helps Kyurem-B since Zone traps and eliminates a lot of the Steels that threaten it. Tapu Bulu is seeing a surge of usage and it gets demolished by Kyurem-B, which is another recent metagame trend in its favor. And with Zapdos being excellent in this current metagame (I also fully echo all the nominations for Zapdos to rise to A-) due to its ability to wall a large number of threats in the tier it stands to reason that Kyurem-B, as one of the few things Zapdos has absolutely no business trying to wall as Hawlucha and Mega Pinsir are being spammed on the ladder, can be used to effectively force it out or break it. This thing is still a huge pain in the ass to switch in on and that isn't about to change.

 

[Scuba Diver]

I’ll just comment on Mimikyu to C+, I strongly agree (and would be happy dropping it lower). It’s pitifully weak (would have been better if Let’s Snuggle Forever was a Ghost move) and really has no place in a meta filled with Landorus and Scizor. It’s just a lazy 6th mon for a team weak to sweepers. What playstyle is this thing excelling against? Even on Webs, why not run something stronger or faster? I think this drop has been a long time in the making, I’m glad it’s finally being discussed because Mimikyu has just flown under the radar as trash for months now. I’ve never built a team that was threatened by this mon and if I’m being honest I think it’s by far the worst mon in OU (that’s actually in the tier by useage). I think stuff that’s probably going to fall out of the tier like Stakataka and Lycaroc-D are miles better than this, as is much of BL.

I apologize if I’m not citing any meta trends beyond the general decline of webs but I genuinely think this mon is the most egregiously misplaced thing on the rankings.

 

[robofiend]

Kyurem-Black -> A to A-
Holy shit does this thing struggle, way too much for its A-Rank. Physical Z variants have to pick whether they want coverage or Ice Beam, since Freeze Shock is god awful outside of nuking something and Special variants have to pick between a relatively weak Fusion Bolt (a must-have) or coverage moves that never do enough damage. All of its attacks seem kinda useless and underpowered until you don't have them, which is one of the worst qualities a Pokemon can have. HP Fire doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn, Earth Power (without investment + LO) doesn't OHKO Heatran, Fusion Bolt doesn't OHKO Toxapex. And with Rocks being a near guarantee in the current meta and its insanely bad typing it's able to switch in against almost nothing, which gives you another reason to not use it. Sure, it looks cool and has some good sets, but with M-Venusaur becoming less common, revenge killers running amok, and Celepex becoming less dominant, it's just not as good as it once was.

Zapdos B+ -> A-
This thing rocks, I said it earlier, I'll say it again. It's an OK fogger (being weak to rocks sucks) but it really stands out as a defensive mon with solid offensive capabilities, being able to chip or kill nearly everything in the tier with HP Ice, Discharge, and Heat Wave. With M-Pinsir and Hawlucha becoming more common and Kartana everywhere, it can singlehandedly patch some holes that the rest of the metagame struggles with, and it works well on a wide range of teams. Oh and Static is a crazy good ability on this thing, sometimes you don't even have to clap that physical attacker back to render it irrelevant for the rest of the game.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Kyurem-Black -> A to A-
All of its attacks seem kinda useless and underpowered until you don't have them, which is one of the worst qualities a Pokemon can have. HP Fire doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn, HP Ground (without investment + LO) doesn't OHKO Heatran, Fusion Bolt doesn't .

Kyurem Black gets Earth Power, I would suggest chagingi it otherwise it is way to confusing

Also I don't get the Freeze Shock obsession on Kyurem Black, yes it gives you a viable Physical Ice Type Move but I rather run the classic Special 4Atk Kyurem Black: HP Fire/Earth Power/Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt
Vs. Toxapex
4 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fine enough against Toxapex as 2HKO one of the most resilient walls in OU is very good.
Vs Heatran
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (89 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
You said which run no investment for your proposal, but honestly what does Heatran do in return to it?

Kyurem Black can afford to switch into some mons like Tapu Bulu but I admit that it isn't easy to bring into a match due to a lack of immunities and resists

 

[robofiend]

Kyurem Black gets Earth Power, I would suggest chagingi it otherwise it is way to confusing

Also I don't get the Freeze Shock obsession on Kyurem Black, yes it gives you a viable Physical Ice Type Move but I rather run the classic Special 4Atk Kyurem Black: HP Fire/Earth Power/Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt
Vs. Toxapex
4 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fine enough against Toxapex as 2HKO one of the most resilient walls in OU is very good.
Vs Heatran
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (89 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
You said which run no investment for your proposal, but honestly what does Heatran do in return to it?

Kyurem Black can afford to switch into some mons like Tapu Bulu but I admit that it isn't easy to bring into a match due to a lack of immunities and resists

Apparently no one runs physically defensive Toxapex anymore, so the calculator can be a bit misleading. I feel like I see one once in a blue moon but it's not standard by any means. Fusion Bolt is way better against Toxapex when it's maxed on SpDef to take on Greninja, Blace, etc.

The Freeze Shock set is pretty cool, you get to blow a lot of stuff up for free and the synergy with Tapu Koko is nice for busting up Ferrothorn-centric teams. But again, it's got that 3MSS with one move being functionally useless after one use and the other 3 slots having 4 different coverage moves to pick from.

The point I was making about Heatran was that you have to run LO + max investment to beat it, the Physical set won't KO. Heatran can't really do much in return without Flash Cannon (I've seen that once or twice) but that Magma Storm when you've already taken Rocks damage can be annoying. And Life Orb itself isn't horrible, it's just damage that Kyurem hates to take and it encourages your opponent to swap around a lot to whittle away HP.

I'm not saying Kyurem's awful, it's just not on the same level as other A-Ranks. It used to be a great wallbreaker and now it's a little more "meh".

 

[Dakress]

The only reason Mimikyu has stayed in the B ranks for so long is because the poke's all about conserving momentum. That's a massive boon to hyper offense teams because those can usually lose quicky due to specific defensive threats and/or faster pokes, which Mimikyu can deal with a SD + Z-Move/LO unresisted STAB attack.

That being said, I agree that Mimikyu should be C+/C but for completly different reasons. For one, it only gets to shine in HO because of the huge support it provides to it (mostly rocks + webs), and in any other playstyle another poke could do it's job better (which also happens to describe the situation of every C ranked mon). Second, despite the new web setters, the sheer abundance of defog users is not making any favors to the little guy, essentially making it's job harder. The argument "Mimikyu is weak and frail so it should drop ASAP" is super lousy because the thing has always been walled by defensive Lando-T and M-Scissors, so bringing it now of all times feels hypocritical to me.