Resource Ubers Old Gens Hub

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
shrang well i see how it has more merit in an arceus meta (note: just run scarf dbond sball focus icy wind for any scarf gar [or run another scarfer]) but I don't think we should really do farceus rankings just because this is a hub for the "official" tiers; although adv/dpp never were from my recollection? catch my drift though.

Hack yea, sd variants of rayquaza are much easier to handle since manaphy revenges but dd variants i sack sth to outrage para w jirachi and go from there. in fact, the mence + ray combo is quite difficult for the manaphy team to surmount, but i really like it despite that one thing
 
So just how good are Spikes/TSpikes in BW2? I mean they're obviously really fucking good, but are they at the level where they ought to be included on every team? That might be going a bit far, but holy fuck it feels that way to me
 
Tang/Vic gets it. Gengar will have to stay for a while, altho I'm leading on removing it.

Gliscor moves up to A-. It is a mon that progressively makes more and more sense to use. I also made some ordering changes as per my previous post.

Also Slurmz please write a description for your Gyarados team so I can add it.

So just how good are Spikes/TSpikes in BW2? I mean they're obviously really fucking good, but are they at the level where they ought to be included on every team? That might be going a bit far, but holy fuck it feels that way to me
A large majority of good teams have them, but mandatory is pushing it. Throughout the years there are some great teams not using them. I'll go through some styles below.

Donkey's Groudon/Arceus-Fighting/Giratina-O/Palkia/Genesect/Darkrai, or variants thereof. These teams focus on punishing spikes greed with powerful attackers and defends from spikes based teams through additional bulky mons.

"Magic sun", potent playstyle with a number of varations (examples include Espeon/Groudon/Ho-oh/Arceus/Palkia/Genesect or Espeon/Groudon/Darkrai/Ho-oh/Arceus/Giratina-O) does not include them mainly because there isn't any reason they are needed for wallbreaking (tends to rely on Ho-oh for this) but also because it is impossible to fit.

Sand balances like the popular Tyranitar/Fightceus/Excadrill/Rayquaza/Latias/Genesect that have seen a great deal of tournament play does not include them because fitting spikes means fitting a spinblocker, and doing such on sand would reduce the offensive power of this team, or if a suicide spiker was deployed, its ability to win weather wars.

Also Sash Tyranitar offenses (Tyranitar/Darkrai/Kyogre/Genesect/Fightceus/Lati@s) does not include them because these teams have the wallbreaking power in Kyogre/Genesect/Lati@s.

Spikes is mostly used on everything else, however, and to put it mildly they are so good that if a player always used different spikes suicide leads in this tier, this player would still be able to be absolutely top class without any risk of getting too predictable. And that's not even accounting for bulky spikers so yeah.
 
Adv ubers:
Nominating Ho-oh for A+.
There are 2 main sets for ho-oh in adv. the cb set and toxic recover. It hits like a truck and is next the the latis, snorlax and blissey one of the best spdef walls.
With cb shadow ball it 1hkos the latis, hp fly is a 2hko against a majority of the tier and not even steel types cant switch in save bc it has eq coverage and ofc Sacred Fire.

Groudon from S to A+ (or at least bottom of S)
I personally like sun teams a lot, but i doubt Groudon is really S rank worth. It losed every 1v1 to the centralizing Pokemon in this Tier, Kyogre and the Latis. Pdon is one of the strongest mons for sure, but i really dont see it on a level with the other S rank Pokemon

Edit:
After discussing with Hack i think Groudon should stay in S but behind Kyogre
Ho-oh should move up to A+. Behind Snorlax and Blissey and before Deo-A and M2
 
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eren

je suis d'ailleurs
lil nom:

Cloy down a rank to B-
not as effective as other b pokemon, and not even that consistent of a lead since darkrai sleeps it and it gets taunted by most other leads

here's a team that explores some of the stuff that's been talked about in this thread!:

awaken, my love

boogieman (Deoxys-Speed) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Superpower
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt

california (Cresselia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpA / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

riot (Dugtrio) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

zombies (Shiftry) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Explosion

stand tall (Dialga) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 16 SpA / 204 SpD / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

redbone (Groudon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 172 HP / 212 Atk / 32 SpD / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

this unorthodox team focuses on winning the weather war as swiftly as possible to open the path for a cresselia sweep. deo-s evs 100% non-lo rayquaza draco.

and here is a replay with the team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-611887183 - showcases how effective good double switching is with dugtrio, as it eliminates jirachi before it can even set up stealth rock
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Why do Lucario and Heracross have BW Ubers analyses on the site when the two are unviable in the current meta (haven't seen them on the viability rankings)? It might fool newcomers into thinking those are viable mons. Can those please be taken down or something?
 
sorry slurmz, team gets obliterated by stuff like skamy and really upper class ttars. or like tickle-me-wob team to lucario. or a cb scizor team when you ve sacrificed so much for weather, which includes using dialga for water, dragon stuffs; hell probably ttar stuff. then you can't let literally anything set up or have reasonable bulk. it is one of those teams that required everything to go perfectly to look menacing.

Like if dude how has never used that team in his life spotted a weak cress from momentum lost from sacrficing deoxys for spikes, he could've startight lucario'd you down. or if we want to take the start route, you get decimated by blissey gira. only optionis pray to crit the blissey's wish protect in 15-16 tries. less with proetct. hack can do teh math, im wasted. and that kind of groudon isn't helping shiftry at all. still lose to ww lugia + pp stall ending, toxic, trick, or the rare perish. '

like replay was cool but i gave that guy all my teams so this is like his first time using it. didn't even try to sub, taunted uselessly, etc. had a free bp, etc. you can't rely on cress to beat ray either. ice beam is too weak and air lock blocks the 100%. groudon's evs blow when it comes to livin outrages, so you pray to whatever god or deity or yourself that he gets a confusion or a bad dclaw role.

one of rare teams spD gliscor takes on its own p much.

plus, one replay doesn't sway me. i have also double predicted with garbage and gotten rewarded. and shiftry's moveset is p obvious after one move. you could say i i chose hp fire, and then the other guy goes: "thats weak as hell" i didt it just last weak against a DEF gliscor vs special chomp.

and then you have to think about goudon. what are you targeting? skarms, zongs, etc that dialga shuffles around? what about SE so shiftry doesn't have to deal with lugias or ho hos outside of explosion? and then psychic as the last option doesn't help much. Unless you need that chip on lucario cause we all saw your back up lucario plan...

as a side note: your'e slower than kingdra, maybe kabutops. l

and is the rash draco living really worth it? you could 252, keep the evs and item, spike, take hit, super, dugtrio. deoxys are coming back to taunt and shadow ball is weak as hell. food fo thought.

cm latias / latios are the worst. you gotta hit a sucker and switch on a cm, or you gotta sac a mon. and like, aren't you even slow than 110's now? if you put like toxic on cress over psychic, you could do infinitely better stalling and adding a 2nd win condition on a win condition. thats like calculus for pokemon. like the derivative of cress must be bonkers. good thing hyw writes all my math essays
 
Adv ubers:
Nominating Ho-oh for A+.
There are 2 main sets for ho-oh in adv. the cb set and toxic recover. It hits like a truck and is next the the latis, snorlax and blissey one of the best spdef walls.
With cb shadow ball it 1hkos the latis, hp fly is a 2hko against a majority of the tier and not even steel types cant switch in save bc it has eq coverage and ofc Sacred Fire.

Groudon from S to A+ (or at least bottom of S)
I personally like sun teams a lot, but i doubt Groudon is really S rank worth. It losed every 1v1 to the centralizing Pokemon in this Tier, Kyogre and the Latis. Pdon is one of the strongest mons for sure, but i really dont see it on a level with the other S rank Pokemon

Edit:
After discussing with Hack i think Groudon should stay in S but behind Kyogre
Ho-oh should move up to A+. Behind Snorlax and Blissey and before Deo-A and M2
I think I agree on Ho-oh being Deo-A and probably M2, but if that warrants A+ is questionable. Maybe I'd rather move the two others down. I mean sure it does a number on most teams but it limits itself heavily by choosing either of its viable sets. CB has no recovery which is easily exploited in the long run. Wish Blissey/Jirachi are great partners but again, that just goes to show the extra support you have to provide it. Sub Tox is stalled by Rest Kyogre and Blissey, two very common things in the tier. And Sacred Fire only having 8 pp doesn't help much.

Why do Lucario and Heracross have BW Ubers analyses on the site when the two are unviable in the current meta (haven't seen them on the viability rankings)? It might fool newcomers into thinking those are viable mons. Can those please be taken down or something?
Similar story to the Registeel case Iris provided background for a few posts back, probably. Vestige sets/mons tend to happen a lot in generational transitions. Lucario and Heracross are clear cases of good (well at least the former) DPP mons and probably got early BW analyses before people realized Terrakion outclasses Lucario to a ridiculous degree. These things happen and I'm not sure what we usually do about it but well spotted.

Also, in other words, I have provided a GSC Ubers viability rankings list, as well as some mechanical differences. No samples as of yet as the tier is super underexplored. Credits to Isa and Mr.378 for the work. Happy discussing.
 

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
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quick fix zapdos should be in A rank on gsc

here are two teams that i quickly remade from memory. one stall one HO. movesets may be incorrect from when i originally used them and hp fire forretress might be more worthwhile now than it used to be so that could be a possible change to the current metagame. anyway here goes

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Toxic

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
- Curse
- Whirlwind
- Aeroblast
- Recover

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
- Rest
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Double-Edge

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
- Soft-Boiled
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
- Recover
- Heal Bell

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
- Curse
- Roar
- Iron Tail
- Explosion


---

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Submission
- Psychic

Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
IVs: 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Growth
- Baton Pass
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Water]

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
- Swords Dance
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Submission

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
- Lovely Kiss
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Rest

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
- Roar
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide

Cloyster @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Surf
- Icy Wind


team credentials: both went 2-0 in upl when gsc was in

edit: found the import for the HO, same mons but different moves on mewtwo and snorlax, so updated
 
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shrang

General Kenobi
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Why do Lucario and Heracross have BW Ubers analyses on the site when the two are unviable in the current meta (haven't seen them on the viability rankings)? It might fool newcomers into thinking those are viable mons. Can those please be taken down or something?
Old gen analyses tend to end up getting ignored after new gens come out. They might have gotten analyses early in the metagame and just got left there and no-one has bothered to maintain that database simply because there is no interest.
 
i also looked hard and long and long and hard and vigorous for like 2 minutes for iconic's old deoxys s (revamp) analysis to show that it is still outdated. things change so i mean taunt sr spikes just isn't that great anymore. neither is the LO sweeper that used to be on the analysis (still might be on the main smogondex thingy). point is, things change so fast (in less than a year sash tentacruel went from lum to needing special bulk for random psycho boosts and psychics [ari stella way so far above the curve, unknowingly, for beating tentacruel with psychic mewtwo]).

I'm not sure what is to be done. on one hand, we get 1 real smogon verified dpp ubers tournament a year, on the other, people play that and say they have fun and want to pursue it (check my pm on showdown yesterday by a pink paint or someone like that). room tours don't count due to convenience and laziness. competitive discussion tours rarely count because it takes dedicated people (pohjis, as much as he is 'in' the smogon circle now) to try for those. In the farceus tour, i played my own teams for three rounds, one round of konzern 460 arceus es, and one round of Lord Outrage (innovator of all things besides omfuga i think) haxing me with my own mew team. so even adding random changes, tweaks, and twanks into the equation barely helps, if at all.

An entire overhaul takes a lot of work for no pay, no glory, one badge and a big workforce that we simply don't have. if someone brought snorlax to it, i mean, we would have to decline it immediately, and that is a slot taken, work taken, effort taken from a legitimate pokemon people will more identify with–same with dugtrio, typhlosion, infernape, and even my beloved flygon.

and then there is uml where only a few people try and the rest snicker because they think they are above it, and that to be a part of smogon and its many facets is some esoteric, higher learning, jim jones, kinda thing that seemingly happens overnight. last uml, pohjis asked me to prep, he then learns more metagames and intertwines himself with smogon's esoteric jokeforce that believe omfuga is a prophet, shake a god, etc. Next year, I actually play, make finals, ask him to return the favor, he says no and openly says UML is a waste of time despite asking for help last year. See how things change once smogon gets a hand on it? Once people envelop themselves into higher learning and take the oath of the cult? even if lower player tiers branch out, people see it only as a joke. it is disrespectful to competitors for once, and stunts the growth of any tier seeking play: in this case dpp ubers. You may be reading and saying this is a disrespect to pohjis, whom i still love. But no, it just so happens that our session of building for tomahawk and uml finals brought revelations still used in dpp ubers today: Those being Lum tentacruel (now standard) and Fire Fang Swords Dance Garchomp (less used, but also a viable way to get rid of skarm and zong without relying on a subpar zone. every competition brings about revelations like upl, which is the same as uml but with a smogon label. UPL has brought gliscor, and torment skarm, etc. which are now used commonly or seen by others than more than a fantasy idea. So, in essence, we need to try to have more competitions as they peak interest and thought, or 2 try to change mindsets that other sites aren't inferior, but another place for competition. smogon prides itself on diversity (we have a world cup of pokemon), but corrupts itself in bigotry at even the lowest levels.

Even a ladder tournament wouldn't hurt. man im sick of people using samples and saying "i don't play much" as an excuse, as, obviously, they've never tried (as can be proved by pms to one player i forget the name of). I guess I don't care if anything is done, I'll play my own teams, sample teams, hack teams, random absdaddy teams, some slurmz teams, and be content i'm playing something I enjoy, but it bothers me when people say they enjoy it and refuse to build themselves out of paralyzing fear of failing, which is the cornerstone of getting better. Do you think I was good when I started? DO you think I was plateauing thinking i can beat everyone (in dpp UU in this case) until I met stall master eo on the ladder? no but i tried, and watched, and built and repeated till i became top 1 on ladder, respected (like oh so many want to be, respected equals accepted in this ridiculous smogon community). I'm not a tier leader, barely an RO, but man, the chat is so divisive over how to be helpful and friendly, and how to be downright disgusting.
 
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Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
There is another site that is hosting a Gen 3 Ubers tournament that is focused on development (they are trying to encoperate it into their tier roster but they want to make sure they do it right instead of a simple smogon rules c/p). The tournament setup is that every round you get a new opponent (or two), but no one ever gets eliminated. Each player can enter and leave as they please and the OP only keeps record of the total won games each player has. Each round is a week long and Bo3. If I was TO, I would require posted replays too for development's sake.

We could build on this format in quite a few ways in order to make get it as close to ideal as possible, but I do think it is a strong foundation for getting people to play a little more. For instance, we could have scoreboard resets (and rule changes / improvements) at regular intervals (2-4 a year I think). There are many other improvements to be thought of, we just need people to run it. I would be happy to operate this style of tournament for gen 4 (still my favorite) once my Ubers Open tournament life ends (likely soon). I would also be playing in it for as many rounds as possible.
 
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shrang

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An entire overhaul takes a lot of work for no pay, no glory, one badge and a big workforce that we simply don't have. if someone brought snorlax to it, i mean, we would have to decline it immediately, and that is a slot taken, work taken, effort taken from a legitimate pokemon people will more identify with–same with dugtrio, typhlosion, infernape, and even my beloved flygon.
Definitely this. I wanted to start like an ADV revamp of analyses in C&C, but one look at the workload and the amount of activity for old gen C&C showed me that it was not happening ever. There just isn't enough interest for that much effort. That's kind of why I tried to do mini-analyses for ADV, and even then we got around B rank and progress much further. We probably just need a thread probably similar to the ADV mini-analyses (but even less effort to do) which cover the salient threats and their sets as concisely as possible (thus reducing workload).
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
All I can really offer is what not to use and why, but I figured even that would be helpful to those who are just beginning to learn about how team structure works in gen 4. I also took Hack's callout to contributors a little more personally than I should have (I realize I have little to give, but I might as well), so here is what my hand in Gen 4 Ubers looks like at this moment in time:



The Deoxys is very flexible here, but it should be Speed in neutral, unspecific situations. I favored Attack when I used this team because I adapted it to TTG who didn't use Toxic Spikes or random Dragon Dance Rayquaza leads at the time, but never changed it back afterwards. The overall structure works but could be better... I'm just stubborn. In this state, defensive Kyogre of any kind is a pain to deal with and so are quad water teams, but they aren't unbeatable in most cases. It is worth noting that the way I build usually starts from a concept that is considered bad, but pushing it as far as possible in the hopes of making something playable when I consider it done. This concept was sun and Scizor and a Darkrai (who was added out of spite I have for the Pokemon even thought it left the team weak to it in ways I don't like). You really have to nail Skarmory with Groudon which is why I have been reluctant to post this, but there are ways to gain leverage vs it with Giratina, Groudon, and Darkrai in a few cases. Offensive Dialga are also very real problems if you let Groudon take more than one Fire Blast or Draco Meteor. All of these issues stem from Scizor, but like I said, Groudon + Scizor was the bad concept I aimed to explore. I have explored Superpower give Scizor a damage option that mitigates the Dialga problem somewhat, but U-turn did lots of the same thing when combined with Darkrai, Groudon, or even the dragons under the right circumstances. The team must keep a Spikes advantage versus midgame Spikes users despite how hard it is with a Choice Scarf Palkia, Scizor, and a Darkrai who is usually blind in my experience, otherwise Groudon, Darkrai, and Scizor will crumble and the dragons will follow soon after. Scizor's EVs are a result of several failed attempts to give it interesting tech items and moves, but I never changed them because was used to what damage against and dealt by it looked like at that point and didn't really want that to change. Anyways, if you a solid offensive sun team, use Heatran or Jirachi (Jirachi allows Palkia to ditch its choice item or give its slot to an eon twin). This one does ok for itself given what it is, but Scizor makes things difficult in too many cases.


Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Superpower
- Shadow Ball
- Spikes
- Taunt

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Dark Void
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Outrage

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 Atk / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Shadow Sneak
- Outrage

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 236 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 236 HP / 128 Atk / 136 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Swords Dance

I have other ideas that won't turn out so badly, but my focus is elsewhere at this point in time. My hope is that this will give the other gen 4 contributors something to chew on and make better while also breaking the day long silence this thread has experienced. No one has pointed out that Sturdy doesn't act like a built-in Focus Sash or that there is no Team Preview yet. I have an archive of teams in the ORAS subforum I could dig up I suppose, but those teams were built because of my desire to look into things that suck / how to have the most fun with the teamstyle I like playing with most rather than trying to stay ahead of the meta and playing the current meta as optimally as possible (all of them are awful, but most are a functional kind of awful like team one above). That's all I have other than VR opinions to answer one of the VR questions Hack brought forward regarding Palkia:

I am leaning toward Palkia staying S because I believe what it can offer is more useful than the A+ Pokemon while it is only less useful, threatening, etc than the S rank Pokemon by a smaller subjective margin. I believe it belongs somewhere between S and A+ personally, but creating an S- or A++ rank for just one Pokemon is a little absurd unless there is lots of debate whether it should be A+ or S. Seeing how there isn't a large call for it to move down and it is easily one of the most useful threats in the tier by means of checking most Kyogre, forcing out many Pokemon when its item is unrevealed, and its ability to use the switches it forces/psuedo-forced to break open games quickly (even damage on support Dialga is very worthwhile). There are very good arguments for it to drop also, but I do think it does enough to stay S. I expect Palkia's rank to shift between the two in the longterm.
 
i also looked hard and long and long and hard and vigorous for like 2 minutes for iconic's old deoxys s (revamp) analysis to show that it is still outdated. things change so i mean taunt sr spikes just isn't that great anymore. neither is the LO sweeper that used to be on the analysis (still might be on the main smogondex thingy). point is, things change so fast (in less than a year sash tentacruel went from lum to needing special bulk for random psycho boosts and psychics [ari stella way so far above the curve, unknowingly, for beating tentacruel with psychic mewtwo]).

I'm not sure what is to be done. on one hand, we get 1 real smogon verified dpp ubers tournament a year, on the other, people play that and say they have fun and want to pursue it (check my pm on showdown yesterday by a pink paint or someone like that). room tours don't count due to convenience and laziness. competitive discussion tours rarely count because it takes dedicated people (pohjis, as much as he is 'in' the smogon circle now) to try for those. In the farceus tour, i played my own teams for three rounds, one round of konzern 460 arceus es, and one round of Lord Outrage (innovator of all things besides omfuga i think) haxing me with my own mew team. so even adding random changes, tweaks, and twanks into the equation barely helps, if at all.

An entire overhaul takes a lot of work for no pay, no glory, one badge and a big workforce that we simply don't have. if someone brought snorlax to it, i mean, we would have to decline it immediately, and that is a slot taken, work taken, effort taken from a legitimate pokemon people will more identify with–same with dugtrio, typhlosion, infernape, and even my beloved flygon.

and then there is uml where only a few people try and the rest snicker because they think they are above it, and that to be a part of smogon and its many facets is some esoteric, higher learning, jim jones, kinda thing that seemingly happens overnight. last uml, pohjis asked me to prep, he then learns more metagames and intertwines himself with smogon's esoteric jokeforce that believe omfuga is a prophet, shake a god, etc. Next year, I actually play, make finals, ask him to return the favor, he says no and openly says UML is a waste of time despite asking for help last year. See how things change once smogon gets a hand on it? Once people envelop themselves into higher learning and take the oath of the cult? even if lower player tiers branch out, people see it only as a joke. it is disrespectful to competitors for once, and stunts the growth of any tier seeking play: in this case dpp ubers. You may be reading and saying this is a disrespect to pohjis, whom i still love. But no, it just so happens that our session of building for tomahawk and uml finals brought revelations still used in dpp ubers today: Those being Lum tentacruel (now standard) and Fire Fang Swords Dance Garchomp (less used, but also a viable way to get rid of skarm and zong without relying on a subpar zone. every competition brings about revelations like upl, which is the same as uml but with a smogon label. UPL has brought gliscor, and torment skarm, etc. which are now used commonly or seen by others than more than a fantasy idea. So, in essence, we need to try to have more competitions as they peak interest and thought, or 2 try to change mindsets that other sites aren't inferior, but another place for competition. smogon prides itself on diversity (we have a world cup of pokemon), but corrupts itself in bigotry at even the lowest levels.

Even a ladder tournament wouldn't hurt. man im sick of people using samples and saying "i don't play much" as an excuse, as, obviously, they've never tried (as can be proved by pms to one player i forget the name of). I guess I don't care if anything is done, I'll play my own teams, sample teams, hack teams, random absdaddy teams, some slurmz teams, and be content i'm playing something I enjoy, but it bothers me when people say they enjoy it and refuse to build themselves out of paralyzing fear of failing, which is the cornerstone of getting better. Do you think I was good when I started? DO you think I was plateauing thinking i can beat everyone (in dpp UU in this case) until I met stall master eo on the ladder? no but i tried, and watched, and built and repeated till i became top 1 on ladder, respected (like oh so many want to be, respected equals accepted in this ridiculous smogon community). I'm not a tier leader, barely an RO, but man, the chat is so divisive over how to be helpful and friendly, and how to be downright disgusting.
i don't really get what this post is seeking to accomplish? there are far too many tiers nowadays for many players to bother putting any effort into a dead tier that is 3 generations removed. the only thing really esoteric abt anything is knowing dpp ubers in and of itself.

like, i get it. i've always been a huge fan of bw ubers as its where i started my tenure in the tier and have always felt the most confident playing it. i think it was a really fun metagame to work with and i miss its absence. but like, i moved on.

a lot of people pride themselves abt winning upl and a lot of dudes think its fun. like, i still do and i like participating as a manager. if pohjis has been absorbed by tour so-called Smogon Esoteric Jokeforce, like, oh well. not everyone has to be invested in a tier as much as they were before. the plural of anecdote isn't evidence. this is one dude. and i wouldn't call pohjis the Epitome of Smogon Culture.

tournaments like seasonal aren't Official Smogon Tournaments which are trophy-invested, but a small showing of who is a fierce competitor. people try in these. at the end of the day, the modern gen tiers are always gonna take precedent and that's cool. if you wanna be invested in pushing forward an old gen, that's your prerogative obviously, but i think lamenting about how people don't bother putting effort into it is masturbatory at best and it clogs up space for productivity in old gens, too. & if you want to have legitimate innovation and motivation for a tier, rear up the sm ubers campaign & have at it.
 

PROBLEMS

AHEAD OF HIS TIME
Going to dump some of the personal favourites here that I've used over the years, these teams are more or so recent variations to how the recent metagame is currently in BW2 seeing as the tiers played completely different to how it was years and years ago where balance was the norm and everything was not just spikes lead and actual structured teams :~)

Personally BW2 was as good as it was due the metagame being smaller to that of recent days, all the numerous modern day releases in pokemon have made tiers impossible to play by certain values of theres way too many threatening pokemon obviously this was always going to happen but lets rejoice on the values and not let something die out completely and show it respect where its due. A certain aspect I realized from over 5 years of playing the tier have made each and every game enjoyable to certain mind games like 'winning weather wars' - Being that you're pretty much forced to pick a Kyorge or Groudon you try and compliment certain styles of play weather you have the uper advantage over your opponent in certain scenarios from weather its having use of coverage moves to actual weather abusers in swift swim and other abilities. These stubborn wars between users which take games up to 20+ turns involve deep long term thought on how games progress over turns which was the weather war, being that this addition was removed in later generations to a limited amount of turns or nulled by primals nowa days we can express out interest to a time were things once were pretty much perfect in the use of a balanced metagame where nothings too powerful or over centralising, so weather wars are used as added perk to increase probability of having 'a good match up'. Anyway, lets just appreciate the way things used to be in peoples save haven that is BW2.. Whilst exploring a few different styles of teams, another thing to note is before the trend of fast paced suicide lead offensive spike stacking teams a playstyle such as pressuring with entry hazards should be used on a more diverse spectrum which isnt based around sacking a member of your team.

idk how to do the pictures so fuk wit me

Hazard Stacking Sun Balance (Sweet Heart and Problems)
Groudon/Heatran/Arceus-Ghost/Latias/Forretress/Zekrom

Sweet Heart team which was edited by myself to fit a modern day era. Pretty easy to get up hazards and hard wall certain builds if you're careful with coverage moves on wall breakers. Heatran fills a nice roll on this team complimenting the Latias/Forretress/Ghostceus core which is not easily broken down, only really need to be careful around non-choiced Ho-Oh to and extent. The build compliments Zekrom well as gives a nicer cushion to winning those weather wars as it matches up well vs rain teams and dances on balance.

Groudon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Spikes
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Lava Plume
- Roar

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 160 HP / 148 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost

Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Sleep Talk
- Volt Switch
- Bolt Strike

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Focus Blast / Fire Blast
- Recover


You can change this team around by having Arceus Ghost > Arceus Normal / Zekrom > Giratina - O which gives it a slighty different feel but can be just as effective in the ability of being able to stack hazards on a well built team such as this.

Groudon/Heatran/Giratina-O/Latias/Forretress/Arceus-Normal
Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 176 Atk / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Shadow Sneak

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Force
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Roar

Groudon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 160 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Lava Plume
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 136 HP / 172 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder / Psyshock


Been encouraged to share this team so decided to say a few things might get around to addressing other teams at a later date in more depth but yeh will see.

Hazard Stacking Rain Balance (Kingdra)
Skarmory/Kyorge/Arceus-Ghost/Kingdra/Excadrill/Latias

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 232 HP / 220 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Toxic
- Spikes

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 124 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Recover

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse

Excadrill @ Chople Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 244 HP / 72 Atk / 192 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Tomb / Toxic

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf / Thunder
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Roost


These two teams I feel are two of the best examples of how to introduce a balanced approach on weather war hazards stacking

Offensively Balanced Rain (Double Scarf)
Dialga/Kyorge/Kabutops/Arceus-Ghost/Rayquaza/Genesect

Dialga @ Shuca Berry / Chople Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roar

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Explosion
- Ice Beam
- Iron Head

Rayquaza @ Focus Sash
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- V-create
- Extreme Speed

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Def / 136 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Recover

Kabutops (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Low Kick
- Rapid Spin

Offensively Balanced Sand (Mence and TR Dialga)
Tyranitar/Excadrill/Salamence/Arceus-Fighting/Latias/Dialga

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 152 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Thunder Wave

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 60 HP / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish
- Draco Meteor
- Grass Knot
- Psyshock

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Sleep Talk

Arceus-Fighting @ Fist Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 132 HP / 164 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Dialga @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Trick Room
- Outrage
- Aura Sphere

Hyper Offensive Sun (Espeon Dragons Spam)
Espeon/Rayquaza/Groudon/Darkari/Arceus-Ghost/Salamence

Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Yawn
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Groudon @ Earth Plate
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Tomb
- Dragon Claw

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 164 HP / 4 Def / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Fire Blast
- Judgment
- Recover

Darkrai @ Chilan Berry
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Dark Void

Rayquaza @ Focus Sash
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- V-create
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Sleep Talk


Just thought I'd share these after the a recent participation in UPL which rekindled my love for the tier itself which most of us have forgotten about, all the testing and team ideas in preparation for the tournament IMO was the most fun part I had in years with user Hack. My own performance not being as stellar as it probably should have been but in general everyone played pretty well so big ups, also decided to try these on the pretty much dead ladder so thats that i guess




Thanks all,

Oli xo
 
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So there's been a bit of drama over on PP and in the midst of this, Illusions (idk if that's their name here) mentioned Quagsire and Claydol in relation to adv ubers. I've had little experience with them, but at a glance Claydol seems like it'd have a niche, I have reservations about Quag tho. Anyway I noticed they weren't listed in the VR, idk if that was intentional or not
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I've worked Claydol and Quagsire pretty extensively with players like Melee Mewtwo in testing. It should be pretty obvious to most that play ADV Ubers by this point that neither of these are very good Pokemon, and it comes down to the fact that they're both defensive Pokemon with very limited utility. Claydol can spin and boom, but its defensive stats are mediocre and it lacks the ability to really take advantage of its Ground and Electric immunities. Quagsire is better at taking advantage of its Water Absorb and Electric immunity combo, but it has relatively low utility outside this and is reminiscent of another defensive Water with pseudo Water + Electric immunity - Lanturn.

In short, I think its fair to list Claydol and Quagsire in C rank for ADV VR, but no higher. These Pokemon are sorta justifiable on like one or two teams at best.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I've used Quagsire before, its niche is on rain stall teams to help deal with CM Hydro TWave Kyogre and CM Jirachi, and it can somewhat handle MixQuaza as long as it doesnt switch in on Ice Beam. Amnesia/Toxic/Rest/EQ was the set.

Claydol sucks. Checks nothing defensively except HP Ghostless Groudon and can't deter any of the main Spikers (Forry/Skarm/Omastar). Pretty much useless except for Explosion. I wouldn't rank Claydol at all.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
rank quag, dont rank claydol (the only niche it would have is not being trapped by mag and can ohko gengar but not good enough for a rank), move heracross up a little(iirc we already brought this up but i dont think it moved up), move shed down more.. I think anyone who's decent at building for adv will agree that shed is pretty much deadweight vs any solid team. The increase usage of mag makes it harder for shed teams to spin. Omastar the most common swift swimmer switch into forre and guarantee a spike will be set. Also if a team lacks spikes it's not exactly hard for the builder to throw on some moves that will catch shed off guard. The amount of team support you would need to have is just way too much and even then a weird set can basically ruin your whole build since you will rely on shed to actually wall stuff. I just feel like shed was ok in the past due to the tier being super underdeveloped and now that it developed a lil bit it kinda sucks.
 
I feel like Omastar is ranked too high in the Adv rankings. I mean yeah, it sets spikes. But it cant hit that hard, has enough switch ins and is pretty fragile. B or B- is where i see it
 
Well since I'm out of BW cup I've decided to drop The Greatest BW team of 2k17, showcasing my fresh out of the box, Ice Gem Kyogre:

Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Rock Polish

Kyogre @ Ice Gem
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind

TyraniTANK (Tyranitar) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Crunch
- Low Kick
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
- Sleep Talk

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 136 HP / 176 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roar
- Recover

Arceus-Fighting @ Fist Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

The main idea behind the set is to get rid of every common Kyogre switch-in bar Palkia. Latis, Arceus-Grass, Sp.Def Giratina-A, you name it, in order for Rock Polish Groudon to sweep. I decided to go with Ice Beam Arceus-Fighting as opposed to Stone Edge in order to damage Giratina-O a lot better. Roar on Latias allows me to phaze out potential threats like CM Ghost and Ho-Oh switch-ins when Latias is at -2, I consider HP Fire necessary because Ferro is a bit annoying since rain is almost always gonna be up (This team is extremely weak to Tentacruel squads but then again Tenta squads are absolutely decimated by this Kyogre set). I hate Darkrai so I decided to run the infamous Sleep Talk Genesect to take some pressure off of Arceus-Fighting. I honestly couldn't fit a spin blocker here, if I use Arceus-Ghost I would be very weak to both E-killer and CM Arceus and if I ran Gira-O+Palkia I would just have to sac something against any pokemon with a Dragon-type move. Groudon item can always be swapped but I feel like the lack of Spikes demands Life Orb. Dragon Claw can be used over Fire Punch if you think Giratina-O is more annoying than bulky Skarm. And yeah, I guess that's it.

+1 252+ SpA Ice Gem Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Arceus-Grass: 430-506 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Ice Gem Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 350-412 (115.8 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Ice Gem Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 302-356 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Ice Gem Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 360-424 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ubers-321231 Best replay on earth

Enjoy!
 
going to drop some suff I built for ADV CUP, sadly I got haxed in r4 vs Level 56 but he deserves the win, im not rly good playing.

ADV TEAMS

Aerodactyl Rain BO ft. Metagross


Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 240 HP / 244 Def / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Ice Beam

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Earthquake
- Body Slam

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion

Main idea was build around typical rain core (Latios + Kyogre) including Metagross as Deoxys-Attack check, running pursuit to KO it, decided to add Spikes and Snorlax as switch in of Lati twins, the team needed offensive pressure and after testing a lot, Aerodactyl was perfect thanks to high speed and Ground Inmunity, also its a check of Ho-Oh / Lugia, the team is solid and its my favorite team by far, won a lot of games with this team, including Stall match ups using Curselax + Rest and Metagross,Kyogre Defensive stops Groudon SD.

Raikou ft DD Latios Offense.

Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Fire Punch
- Taunt
- Ice Beam

Gengar @ Magnet
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunder
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Explosion

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Surf

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 SpA / 156 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Shadow Ball
- Thunder

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

I tried to use Raikou and pressure a lot opponents, used this vs Level 56 and lost due to the big weakness to CM Kyogre and a sad Ice Beam crit to Latios, tested the team and main function is set Spikes with Deoxys, Taunt threats like CM Kyogre (Taunt fix the issue) and spam Thunder under Rain with Raikou, to help the team keep spikes in the field, added Gengar as a Rapid Spin inmune user and Snorlax check, I used to run Metagross but that wasn't working so I tried Blissey CM and it does a great job, Kyogre Defensive to stop Groudon and Ho-Oh and Dragon Dance Latios as late game sweeper and its not walled by Blissey or common switchs in.

------------------------------------------------------------------
And going to add a Sun Team, but its not really solid because Deo-A threaten a lot.


Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Double-Edge

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 188 HP / 68 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Aromatherapy

Regirock @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 116 Atk / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Rash Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Solar Beam
- Explosion

Rayquaza @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt

The idea of this build was use a solid sun core compossed of Groudon + Ho-Oh and Regirock, Regirock its a nice check to Snorlax and Ho-Oh and Choice Banded really hurts, Im using Exegguttor to use Sun and Spam fast Solar Beams or Self Destruct, Blissey gives me good match up vs Latios and Latias and paired with Ho-Oh its much better, Groudon is para dancer set and finally Rayquaza as switch in of Groudon (yes lol) with NeverMeltIce searching the KO from Modest Ice Beam, Extreme Speed to hit Deoxys-Attack.

Sprites from here: https://archives.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Category:Colosseum_menu_sprites&fileuntil=Menu Colo 201B.png#mw-category-media
 
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All of those teams are lacking brother eg comrade jhonx. Thank you for trying though to help progress the meta. The first team is by far the best team but still has some issues. I think the two biggest problems that come to mind is latios is the only true ogre check since your own ogre lacks thunder. We all know latios can get overwhelmed a lot and the usage of both ogre and groudon on the same team has been getting more usage. The second reason I dislike the team is forretress is super hard to break. It's nice you have your own forretress to make sure it can't spike stack but aero, metagross, lax all dislike it and unless you wanna sit there and let it spike stack while you chip it or setup with it (curselax) then it's gonna be around a long time. Having rest on ogre to make sure it can come in and pressure forretress out is nice but then again that set is passive and you really want thunder for opposing ogres. The second team has plenty of things that concern me. I thought blissey on deo s offense was forgotten about but I guess not. Even with cm it's just passive and a weird fit on offensive teams. Most people wont want to switch in stuff like skarmory since they can predict that it might be cm because of the team structure anyways. On to the more alarming stuff is the team has a raikou and somewhat blissey that will welcome groudon to come in and potentially sweep your whole team with ease. It really only needs to chip ogre once for sub salac to sweep (assuming its hp ghost which is by far the most common coverage on salac). It doesn't exactly help that your latios lacks icebeam since you chose shadowball over it. It also doesnt help that if you switch gengar in (can kinda check it since it has wow) on a sub then you are forced to boom since not even sball can break a sub. The team is also shredded by a band deo a or spell tag deo a or sub petaya deo a. Like I don't understand what you even do vs it.. maybe throw quick att on raikou fam. The third team lacks a lati. Lets all let that sink in. Basically if kyogre has sub then you are forced to hard groudon from your only actual kyogre switchin bliss to get sun up so you don't autolose which opens up plenty of oppurtunities for the opposing team to damage groudon and ultimately win the weather war which makes exeggutor and hooh a lot less viable. Since you lack a lati not only is kyogre a threat but opposing groudon can easily beat up your team no matter the set if they play smart. Exeggutor hates twave or hp ghost, hooh hates rockslide,twave and takes a ton by +2 hp ghost, rayquaza same as hooh, groudon is spd not def so not the best check either. You aren't that weak to deo a like you say you are since you have espeed, ghost immunity, fighting resist, regirock loves all attacks except superpower, groudon is a tank 2. Of course if its the sub petaya set you can set sun and win. It really is similar to the other sun balances but what makes this version anywhere close to on par with the other ones. Ray over a latias and exeggutor over a forretress don't make sense. You lose a ton of defensive synergy and utility and open yourself up to way more threats for some niche offensive mons? Lastly, the deo s team lacks a solid rock resist which allows for strong offensive rock types like banded sudo to tear a hole thru your team and get at least a couple kills which you can see in this replay (also Hack can you place sudo on the vr?). Nice to see somebody participating in adv stuff though keep up the good work.
 

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