The Great Wall - A Lugia Discussion Thread

The Great Wall - A Lugia Discussion Thread


Welcome to my second discussion thread here on Ubers forum. Well the Pokémon of this thread is Lugia. So lets begin!

The BaseStats

HP: 106
Atk: 90
Def: 130
SpA: 90
SpD: 154
Spe: 110

First the 154 Base special defense are realy high. Only Shuckle, Regice and Deoxys-D have more Base special defense than Lugia. (Ho-oh has 154 base special defense like Lugia)
130 base defense are also good in the Ubers Metagame.
The defense and the special defense combined with the 106 based HP are the reasons which make Lugia the Great Wall.
More to the basestats will be added ASAP.

Moves which coukld be played competitive:
- Calm Mind
- Carge Beam (to boost the special attack)
- Dragon Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Light Screen
- Protect
- Psychic
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Reflect
- Roar
- Roost
- Safeguard
- Thunder
- Whirlwind


Movesets

Lugia @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
~ Roost
~ Reflect
~ Whirlwind
~ Light Screen / Ice Beam

This set is called "The Great Wall". Well this is a Dualscreen Lugia. Roost + Leftovers to have a good recovery. Ice Beam to make damage to hit Groudon and dragon types in Ubers Metagame. Whirlwind to stop boosters, like DDRayquaza, SDRayquaza... .

Lugia @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Ice Beam
~ Roost
~ Thunder / Whirlwind

Lugia can also be played as Calm Minder. Thunder on the last Slot is to have a move to hit Kyogre super effective.


Other sets will be added after some testing ^^

So that was my Lugia Discussion Thread. More wil be added ASAP!

Have fun here!
 
The Great Wall set can also be run with the Calm Minder's EV's. That way, SD Garchomp can't get the drop on you, and you also outspeed Palkia. Used in conjunction with Light Screen, you now have a very effective Palkia wall.
 

ΩDonut

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I recommend Icy Wind over Ice Beam as an option on the Calm Minder set. While not nearly as powerful, it can lower the speed of Taunting Mewtwo\Deoxys-s that would otherwise neutralize the set.
 
Both sets mentioned can be used very well,
with Spikes, Stealth rock, and maybe Toxic Spikes,
+ Whirlwind, is obviously a great combo.
Plus a recovery move, calm mind, Duel Screens, Calm mind, and great stats.

Like I said,
with good support, Lugia can be a star on any team.
 
As I and many others have spotted on irc, Lugia's great wall set is being placed randomly on offensive teams for no apparent reason besides checking/countering things like Rayquaza and Garchomp. Lugia's great wall set isn't even all that great at checking at Rayquaza (598 Atk vs 339 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 295 - 348 (70.91% - 83.65%), who ohkoes with +1 outrage 66.67% of the time, and +2 dragon claw will ko with stealth rock and any sort of previous damage (798 Atk vs 339 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 264 - 312 (63.46% - 75.00%).

Garchomp isn't countered by Lugia's great wall either, the swords dance variety does ohko 80% of the time with stone edge, (718 Atk vs 339 Def & 416 HP (100 Base Power): 304 - 358 (73.08% - 86.06%). Even Scarfchomp 2hkoes almost all the time with stone edge, inferring Lugia switches in on the stone edge, the banded always 2hkoes.

From experience, I'd say Impish Groudon is a much better counter to these pokes than Lugia's great wall set, as he can switch into the boost, and phaze the dragon, while still living after the boosted attack, he takes 61% from Garchomp, and 51% from +1 Jolly dd ray, 46% from +2 dragon claw from Jolly Sd ray. Timid Lugia also works, as it can outspeed Garchomp and Rayquaza, and deal huge amounts with ice beam, it will ko Rayquaza 100% of the time with stealth rock, but not kill Garchomp, who will live even with stealth rock, and ko with +2 stone edge.

The Great Wall Lugia set does not really fit on an offense based team, it lacks the attacking stats, and most people just stick the Great wall set on their team, thinking that they have the physical based dragons covered. Lugia's home is really a stall based team. Offense based teams really need the momentum going and stay with it, instead of lugging around essentially a useless member of their team. Stall teams have the support to aid Lugia in walling, such as cleric usage, and residual damage aid to keep Lugia doing it's best job, which is to phaze out threats. Stall teams can lay out entry hazards to make Lugia seem more significant, for example, phazing Rayquaza out means it loses 3 turns of potential attacking, which could mean the difference of victory and defeat. Laying out toxic spikes, and using Lugia means that Garchomp has limited turns to sweep, which is always good for a stall team. Phazing things like Rock polish Groudon also works wonders, because since toxic spikes will abrutply end it's sweep, along with reflect and life orb recoil.
 

ginganinja

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I used the CM Lugia (timid) on my offensive team and it worked really well. Alas with Taunt + CM Mewtwo and Wobuffet Lugia was not peforming its duties as well and i had to swap it out. I still think Lugia can work in offensive teams authough I agree that it should not be used as ther only check for the physical dragons. Personally i think that the CM can serve as a decent chesck for Palkia (with rocks not up)as with Roost and CM, Palkia will have trouble getting through. Btw I look at the main sprite at the top of the page and think
"Man Lugia has huge hands intead of wings"
 
Has anyone tried an offensively-minded Cro-set? Maybe something like

Lugia @ Leftovers
252 HP/ 200 Def/ 52 Sp. Atk
Bold
Calm Mind/ Rest/ Sleep Talk/ Ice Beam

I'm not sure about its viability, but i would think that if kyogre has a viable Cro set, then lugia would be able to pull it off too. I also don't know what EVs would be optimal, but the ones i posted seem senisble.

I also agree with tripe that groudon is a much better check to the two physical dragons than lugia.
 
Lugia gets Recover/Roost. If being used on a stall team, you hopefully have aromatherapy, so you don't need to worry (that much) about status. Plus, Cro makes Lugia into Taunt fodder. Kyogre has no recovery outside of Rest, and has 150 base SpAttk from the get-go, not to mention double STAB for Surf. Also, it can't stay in on Darkrai, as it's hit super-effective by Dark Pulse. Lugia has better things to do, like set up screens and phaze, or even PP stall.
 
I'm inclined to agree with tripe for the most part. Too many people are just thinking "lol, Lugia is teh shizzle, I'm gonna use it" when in fact the opposite needs to happen. Think long and hard about Lugia, because it has considerable drawbacks. On an offensive team, Lugia totally kills your momentum and makes you setup fodder against a litany of threats, such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Latios, etc.

On a stall team, Lugia typically goes in the filler slot, but it is utter deadweight against other stall teams, not to mention that it only furthers a stall team's already horrific Darkrai weakness. Deep Thought explained that stall v. stall revolves around which side has the better 'wild card', or Pokemon outside the core of Groudon/Forretress/Blissey/Giratina-A or Giratina-O/Latias or Palkia. Imagine that one side is using Lugia, who is utter setup fodder for Forretress and easily killed off by Blissey with Toxic. And the other side is using Ho-oh, who can run through most stall teams given one turn of setup. My money's on the side with Ho-oh.

So am I arguing that you shouldn't use Lugia? No. The Calm Mind set avoids being setup fodder by setting up itself. Its just that you should think long and hard about whether Lugia is the right Pokemon for your team. Stall-based balance teams can probably make the most use of Lugia, but Lugia doesn't work too well on pure stall for the simple reason of Darkrai.
 
I hardly think that much can set up on lugia when it has access to whirlwind.
Mewtwo and Darkrai both have Taunt, and Latios hits like a truck with a Soul Dew-boosted Thunder. Forretress has entry hazardsm and Wobbuffet has Encore, which goes before Whirlwind.
 

bojangles

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Wobbuffet maybe can set up, but can darkrai?
You do not want to be staying in on Darkrai. It will pummel Lugia with STAB super effective Dark Pulses. It can also incapacitate Lugia with Dark Void if need be; it can also use Nasty Plot if Lugia switches out, giving it a chance to sweep your team.

It'll most likely Taunt you so you can't Recover, status it, or Whirlwind it. Then it can start setting up Calm Minds while you do little damage with Ice Beam. It can also then try and sweep your team, like Darkrai.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

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Just some nitpicks, I don't think a lot of these moves can / should be used competitively.

Moves which could be played competitive:

- Calm Mind
- Charge Beam - Calm Mind, Ice Beam, Thunder, Recover is much better. Charge Beam is not damaging anything bar Kyogre, which it will be doing pittance to.
- Dragon Pulse Non stab Dragon Pulse is really only there for Palkia, which Ice Beam hits for neutral.
- Hydro Pump 8 PP in Ubers is not a good idea, even on an offensive Lugia. Ice Beam is hitting Groudon for SE, and HP will really not be of much use against anything but Scizor. Again, Thunder + Ice Beam is much better.
- Ice Beam
- Light Screen
- Protect I can't think of any justification behind using Protect. It only scouts for Choice Banded Attacks on Tyranitar, and you can just reflect on him... It regins HP but that's a moot point; you can put this slot to better use.
- Psychic Psychic is the worst attacking type in Ubers. Again, Ice Beam + Thunder is better.
- Rain Dance - Kyogre?!?
- Recover
- Reflect

Please mention Toxic, Thunder Wave and Substitute. The latter of which can help you set up Calm Minds without fear of Status, and have bulky 101 subs to hide behind.

From experience, I'd say Impish Groudon is a much better counter to these pokes than Lugia's great wall set, as he can switch into the boost, and phaze the dragon, while still living after the boosted attack, he takes 61% from Garchomp, and 51% from +1 Jolly dd ray, 46% from +2 dragon claw from Jolly Sd ray. Timid Lugia also works, as it can outspeed Garchomp and Rayquaza, and deal huge amounts with ice beam, it will ko Rayquaza 100% of the time with stealth rock, but not kill Garchomp, who will live even with stealth rock, and ko with +2 stone edge.

The Great Wall Lugia set does not really fit on an offense based team, it lacks the attacking stats, and most people just stick the Great wall set on their team, thinking that they have the physical based dragons covered. Lugia's home is really a stall based team.
I question your experience with Lugia then. Lugia can outspeed and Reflect making all of those attacks hit for half the damage (Bar +1, but if you switch in on the DD, Reflect then roost you win anyway). Then he can roost and proceed to Ice Beam, or if you're feeling randy set up a Calm Mind then do so. Phazing a threat isn't getting rid of it, it's moving it along so you can deal with it later on. If you have to rely on Groudon roar then there's something wrong. Lugia can set up on Special threats and wall a lot of them - something Groudon can't do, and then the only thing threatening it is being phazed or statused.

Mind's most successful team was full offense, and yet it had one, all purpose wall: Lugia. It countered threats, set up on threats and was pretty much the glue of his team. It definetley was not a weak link. This proves that it's not Lugia that doesn't work, but the person using it.
 

Theorymon

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Ace Matador, its not a good idea for Lugia to Reflect against Dragon Dance Rayquaza. Even a Bold Lugia with max HP and max Defense takes 61.3% - 72.12% from a Jolly 1+ Outrage. Thus, in combination with Stealth Rock, if Lugia Reflects, it will still die to the next Outrage. Its thus better to Ice Beam in case your Lugia survives.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

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I am going by the move Tripe said did 51% damage (D claw probably). However now you've edited Tripes post. Either way, you should just go ahead and Ice Beam so you actually kill DD Ray (Unless you know it only has D Claw, in which case you should Roost).
 
I am going by the move Tripe said did 51% damage (D claw probably). However now you've edited Tripes post. Either way, you should just go ahead and Ice Beam so you actually kill DD Ray (Unless you know it only has D Claw, in which case you should Roost).
The 51% calculation was against Groudon, running 252 hp/192 def Impish. My post was ranting about idiots using randomly using Lugia's great wall set on their offensive based teams, for no apparent reason besides checking those dragons. I am aware that Lugia can be used on offense teams, via calm minding sets, but I'm not convinced for the great wall set, from the way that I've faced on the ladder.
 
Lugia @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
~ Roost
~ Reflect
~ Whirlwind
~ Light Screen / Ice Beam
Why does the Great Wall have such a piss poor EV spread?

252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe, Timid please. Outspeed Chomp and SD Rayquaza so you can nuke em with Ice Beam. Or wouldn't it be nice to roost on CB Garchomp's Stone Edge? Wait nvm that makes too much sense...
 

bojangles

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Not when Roost makes lugia lose his flying type for a turn.
The power of a super effective Stone Edge against a Lugia with Flying-type is 2 x 100 = 200

The power of a STAB Earthquake against Lugia without Flying-type is 1.5 x 100 = 150

It's actually better to use Roost. This is, however, assuming Groudon. Tyranitar, who would really be the only other user of Stone Edge, would most likely use Crunch anyway.
 
Well Bug attacks(however uncommon, see Heracross/Scizor though) will be able to hit for super effective while Roosting, but ice and electric attacks are so common in Ubers that it is completely point to run Recover.
 
Why does the Great Wall have such a piss poor EV spread?

252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe, Timid please. Outspeed Chomp and SD Rayquaza so you can nuke em with Ice Beam. Or wouldn't it be nice to roost on CB Garchomp's Stone Edge? Wait nvm that makes too much sense...
Actually Garchomp will survive Lugia's ice beam with that current spread even with sr factored in, 216 Atk vs 206 Def & 358 HP (95 Base Power): 288 - 340 (80.45% - 94.97%). Garchomp is now guaranteed to kill with stealth rock, 718 Atk vs 312 Def & 416 HP (100 Base Power): 330 - 390 (79.33% - 93.75%). I suggest adding the 64 def into SpA instead to ensure the death of Garchomp. DD rayquaza is going to beat you either way, and Sd ray has no chance.
 

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