Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Heatranator]

If you have Zam counterplay, letting it in isn't that big a deal. Regarding Corv, like I said it's free boosting for Garg while Corv does nothing to it really. Corv can try ID back but you aren't winning a 1v1 generally and you burn a lot of roosts potentially. You don't want to stay in and try to attack it when you'll be forced to burn so much recovery into it.

Block Garg can be more match up heavy, but it also can still work vs non stall teams depending on structure (so yes match up). But typical block Garg are tera ghost+curse which trap almost anything and removes them with ghost curse+salt.

It was UUBL for so long because ladder tends to take way longer than it should to catch onto meta trends. Even before it rose Garg was going strong for quite a bit there. It's not autopilot and requires more care than it used to when building with and around it, but it's also not really difficult to "execute". The power of its chip and progress forcing is useful almost guaranteed most of the time. I'm not really sure what "passively swith between defensive mons" is supposed to be, considering that for slower teams there isn't much an option beyond trying to stall out Salt Cure, as they kinda struggle to scratch it. It's an A rank mon minimum right now, not A-. It's strong and to a point where people are starting to prep for it seriously again.

On the note of Garg, I love this set.

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Tera Type: Water
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SpD
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover
- Curse

This set, when certain checks are removed, can potentially solo endgames by itself without needing another attack due to the longevity of recover+protect and eventually, boosted Salt Cures are too much along with their added chip. This here is a fun game illustrating the power of curse Garg where after Tusk was KOd, Garg was able to come in at turn 19 and proceeds to never switch out again and slowly accumulate boosts to win by itself, beating a double regen core along with Meow. It also highlights why Curse+Salt is great as it abuses slow pivoting regen mons attempting to soak the hit for teammates and slow pivot out, allowing Garg to get lots of chip on everything.

Trust me, letting in Zama is not good. It is a really great mon, the id set destroys teams that have ghost types even a bit chipped. The counterplay to Zama is don't let it in for free or setup for free, Garg is a free entry and setup. The salt cure chip is annoying, but dealable with. Again, corv forces a recover, it will bp once, doing 30%, and then 15% with the next one. Garg has to recover off that damage, letting you reposition.
The block curse thing is definitely cool, I thought you were using normal moves but ghost curse is interesting. That definitely makes it a lot more threatening.
I also stated that it is OU material, but again, I can see why it was UUBL. It is difficult to use because it lets in a ton of massive threats. That means that it can't be self sustaining i.e. it NEEDS teammates. Even things it should beat, such as ghold, it has to be careful around due to it's power. Slower teams need to have firepower, unless they are stall in which case can use other methods to play around it. In this meta, you cannot be passive, that is something people do far too often. If you try to do that, you will get bowled over by many setup sweepers easily such as volc, gambit and gouging, compared to where you normally would have a chance against them. A common thing I use in team building is have one band/specs user, that decreases the teams passivity a lot. Garg again, takes advantage of passive teams. That's my whole point great mon, but it's a bit of a skill check. It can still work well, if supported well, but that's not a A rank mon to me. Maybe you disagree, but it's along the lines again of clefable and dondozo. Clefable can decimate teams that rely on passive damage, but can struggle with high power attacks. Dondozo prays on teams that rely on physical attackers, but any special attackers decimate it. With support, they can be amazing, but they can't do it solo. Compare that to A rank or A+ rank mons, who can more or less function separately, and Garg is more along the lines of A- rank.

 

[Moyashi]

Trust me, letting in Zama is not good. It is a really great mon, the id set destroys teams that have ghost types even a bit chipped. The counterplay to Zama is don't let it in for free or setup for free, Garg is a free entry and setup. The salt cure chip is annoying, but dealable with. Again, corv forces a recover, it will bp once, doing 30%, and then 15% with the next one. Garg has to recover off that damage, letting you reposition.
The block curse thing is definitely cool, I thought you were using normal moves but ghost curse is interesting. That definitely makes it a lot more threatening.

Zama is arguably a top 5 mon, but you're making it out to be more impossible to handle than it is. Earth Power LandoT, Galar Slowking, Pivot Dragapult, Dondozo, bulky Gholdengo, and more can all help check IDBP. And that's assuming the set is running crunch which not all do as roar, heavy slam and even ice fang (way less good but technically usable) are viable alternatives.

I also stated that it is OU material, but again, I can see why it was UUBL. It is difficult to use because it lets in a ton of massive threats. That means that it can't be self sustaining i.e. it NEEDS teammates. Even things it should beat, such as ghold, it has to be careful around due to it's power. Slower teams need to have firepower, unless they are stall in which case can use other methods to play around it. In this meta, you cannot be passive, that is something people do far too often.

Every mon needs teammates to some degree. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here. Also Ghold, unless running Covert Cloak, can't really beat Garg factoring common teras. It doesn't really easily let in a ton of stuff like you think. Like what big threats is it letting in?

If you try to do that, you will get bowled over by many setup sweepers easily such as volc, gambit and gouging, compared to where you normally would have a chance against them. A common thing I use in team building is have one band/specs user, that decreases the teams passivity a lot. Garg again, takes advantage of passive teams. That's my whole point great mon, but it's a bit of a skill check. It can still work well, if supported well, but that's not a A rank mon to me. Maybe you disagree, but it's along the lines again of clefable and dondozo. Clefable can decimate teams that rely on passive damage, but can struggle with high power attacks. Dondozo prays on teams that rely on physical attackers, but any special attackers decimate it. With support, they can be amazing, but they can't do it solo. Compare that to A rank or A+ rank mons, who can more or less function separately, and Garg is more along the lines of A- rank.

Garg is good into multiple kinds of teams not just passive ones, that's something I feel like is being lost for some reason. Rankings aren't that simple either. It's not just about support, but also effectiveness. Something like Kyurem needs a fair amount of support for its best sets (specs for example) but that doesn't keep it from being a centralizing and defining mon as an A+ rank threat. Garg has its flaws, and isn't as insta slap on like early gen, but it's much better than it was a couple months ago. There's a reason it's been doing well in SPL when it shows up. It's a strong mon in the meta and its salt cure is a very commanding move.

 

[Heatranator]

Zama is arguably a top 5 mon, but you're making it out to be more impossible to handle than it is. Earth Power LandoT, Galar Slowking, Pivot Dragapult, Dondozo, bulky Gholdengo, and more can all help check IDBP. And that's assuming the set is running crunch which not all do as roar, heavy slam and even ice fang (way less good but technically usable) are viable alternatives.



Every mon needs teammates to some degree. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here. Also Ghold, unless running Covert Cloak, can't really beat Garg factoring common teras. It doesn't really easily let in a ton of stuff like you think. Like what big threats is it letting in?



Garg is good into multiple kinds of teams not just passive ones, that's something I feel like is being lost for some reason. Rankings aren't that simple either. It's not just about support, but also effectiveness. Something like Kyurem needs a fair amount of support for its best sets (specs for example) but that doesn't keep it from being a centralizing and defining mon as an A+ rank threat. Garg has its flaws, and isn't as insta slap on like early gen, but it's much better than it was a couple months ago. There's a reason it's been doing well in SPL when it shows up. It's a strong mon in the meta and its salt cure is a very commanding move.

Yeah, trust me, it an't as simple as using a special attacker. I think the id + 3 attacks set is the best set by far. The combo of bp, heavy slam and crunch can destroy most things. Combine that with tera steel, and it's really hard to stop. Earth power lando-t is a 4hit ko, while +3 bp is a 3hit ko. And again, it will be coming into something that it can wall, and get one id up. Glowking isn't bad, until they tera, then its doing nothing. At best, it can t-wave. Crunch is a 3hit ko, so it isn't really safe. Pivot dragapult is a ghost type, which I said needs to be dealt with a bit beforehand. Even still, crunch does 60% minimum, so it only has to take reasonable damage to be in range. Dondozo does counter it, so that's one. Bulky ghold can be 4hit ko'd, and bulky ghold isn't as good as it used to be, and has to watch out for crunch defense drops. Offensive ghold is potentially 2hit ko'd.

Sure, every mon wants teammates, but its whether it relies on them/needs them. If a mon is A rank or higher, I ask myself "can it function well in a vacuum". For example, gliscor is a similarish mon to garg in that it can shut down teams. However, while it likes to have supporting teammates, it is not reliant on them to do its job. Garg meanwhile, as a defensive mon, has to rely on teammates. It cannot try to take them on on its own. Gliscor can take on offensive mons, even something like weavile it can take on with tera. Garg also has to tera, but it can't reliably handle offensive mons.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, ghold can win. It can nasty plot up, recover off the damage, and then annihilate garg.
A list of mons garg lets in for (mostly) free:
Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Landorus-T
Meowscarada
Ogerpon Wellspring (it takes 25% from salt cure, but threatens garg out and can land a hit on something)
Rillaboom
Seperior
Zamazenta
That's quite a few mons its letting in for free, and I didn't even include some mons that does good chip against, but is still destroyed by them, such as darkrai, Kingambit, Kyurem and Primarina. I consider those switch ins because while they may take big damage from salt cure, they still threaten it out. I feel like you are focusing too much on the salt cure chip, 25% is a lot, but in most cases those mons threaten it back and that damage is less than letting lots of other mons take 12% (or however much the damage is).

Garg does well into other teams, I stated with support it can definetely it can work, but passive teams are where it thrives. Sure, rankings aren't just about support, but support is something that comes into play. The Kyurem example I'll look at. Yes, it wants support, but it can still do its job of blasting through things if it doesn't have support. Standalone, it still works at blasting teams, even if you don't remove rocks, it can usually take a hit and fire back hard. Compare that again to garg, who cannot do its job of walling things and chipping things without support, and that's the big difference. It cannot be self sustaining in a battle, if its teammates die its 100% screwed. Garg is a strong mon, but it's not A or A+ material, its A- material, that's still a really good placement. I consider Dondozo and Clefable great mons, but they also are A- mons. It's moreso that they need support to function.

 

[Moyashi]

Yeah, trust me, it an't as simple as using a special attacker. I think the id + 3 attacks set is the best set by far. The combo of bp, heavy slam and crunch can destroy most things. Combine that with tera steel, and it's really hard to stop. Earth power lando-t is a 4hit ko, while +3 bp is a 3hit ko. And again, it will be coming into something that it can wall, and get one id up. Glowking isn't bad, until they tera, then its doing nothing. At best, it can t-wave. Crunch is a 3hit ko, so it isn't really safe. Pivot dragapult is a ghost type, which I said needs to be dealt with a bit beforehand. Even still, crunch does 60% minimum, so it only has to take reasonable damage to be in range. Dondozo does counter it, so that's one. Bulky ghold can be 4hit ko'd, and bulky ghold isn't as good as it used to be, and has to watch out for crunch defense drops. Offensive ghold is potentially 2hit ko'd.

3A sets face the problem of being very vulnerable to counterattacks from special attackers, as unboosted BP and nonstab coverage is not solving its problems instantly. And 3A isn't even the most common set and I wouldn't agree it's the best, let alone by far. Giving up sub also leaves you weak to status which isn't super desirable when Glowking can toxic/twave. It also has soft checks in Primarina too. It's a top mon, but again let's not sell it beyond what it is.

Sure, every mon wants teammates, but its whether it relies on them/needs them. If a mon is A rank or higher, I ask myself "can it function well in a vacuum". For example, gliscor is a similarish mon to garg in that it can shut down teams. However, while it likes to have supporting teammates, it is not reliant on them to do its job. Garg meanwhile, as a defensive mon, has to rely on teammates. It cannot try to take them on on its own. Gliscor can take on offensive mons, even something like weavile it can take on with tera. Garg also has to tera, but it can't reliably handle offensive mons.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, ghold can win. It can nasty plot up, recover off the damage, and then annihilate garg.

Gliscor still needs teammates to fall back on for support vs certain threats in the same way Garg does. And they also function quite differently in one often being utility (knock, uturn, toxic, spikes), Garg is typically a progress forcer that can either sweep or act as a stealth rocker (bonus points for being one of the better rockers in the tier). That Ghold calc assumes no tera, along with no curse+EQ (common set) which beats Ghold.

Also not sure why you say "gliscor can take on offensive mons" and then suggest tera. Garg can and does do this too. Plus Gliscor tends to not want to use it as often because it enjoys being spikes immune.

Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Landorus-T
Meowscarada
Ogerpon Wellspring (it takes 25% from salt cure, but threatens garg out and can land a hit on something)
Rillaboom
Seperior
Zamazenta
That's quite a few mons its letting in for free, and I didn't even include some mons that does good chip against, but is still destroyed by them, such as darkrai, Kingambit, Kyurem and Primarina. I consider those switch ins because while they may take big damage from salt cure, they still threaten it out. I feel like you are focusing too much on the salt cure chip, 25% is a lot, but in most cases those mons threaten it back and that damage is less than letting lots of other mons take 12% (or however much the damage is).

No offense but this is a rather uncharitable and somewhat misrepresentative listing. Serp, Wellspring, Meow (who is pretty mid anyways but), Landorus-T hate switching in to salt cure. Even Rillaboom and Zama don't enjoy it (the former especially with hazards up). Here is a game where Garg exerts constant pressure after Darkrai tricked its scarf and was able to Curse up and essentially win despite the presence of Wellspring.

That's quite a few mons its letting in for free, and I didn't even include some mons that does good chip against, but is still destroyed by them, such as darkrai, Kingambit, Kyurem and Primarina. I consider those switch ins because while they may take big damage from salt cure, they still threaten it out. I feel like you are focusing too much on the salt cure chip, 25% is a lot, but in most cases those mons threaten it back and that damage is less than letting lots of other mons take 12% (or however much the damage is).

Especially for offense taking that chip, 25% is a LOT and those mons are tasked with either threatening stuff (darkrai, kingambit) or checking stuff over a game (gambit, kyurem, primarina). None of them having recovery makes the chip much more substantial especially with hazards. I feel like your underselling or underestimating just how easily a well played Garg can stick around and fire off salt cure over and over.

 

[Finchinator]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

 

[Heatranator]

3A sets face the problem of being very vulnerable to counterattacks from special attackers, as unboosted BP and nonstab coverage is not solving its problems instantly. And 3A isn't even the most common set and I wouldn't agree it's the best, let alone by far. Giving up sub also leaves you weak to status which isn't super desirable when Glowking can toxic/twave. It also has soft checks in Primarina too. It's a top mon, but again let's not sell it beyond what it is.

Sub means it has limited coverage, and I find that most mons that can status it are killed before they can actually use the move. I've used sub zama, and while it is good, it has coverage issues. Also, tera steel heavy slam destroys primarina, I know because I am using it right now. It does need a bit of careful positioning, but that's all it needs.

Gliscor still needs teammates to fall back on for support vs certain threats in the same way Garg does. And they also function quite differently in one often being utility (knock, uturn, toxic, spikes), Garg is typically a progress forcer that can either sweep or act as a stealth rocker (bonus points for being one of the better rockers in the tier). That Ghold calc assumes no tera, along with no curse+EQ (common set) which beats Ghold.

Also not sure why you say "gliscor can take on offensive mons" and then suggest tera. Garg can and does do this too. Plus Gliscor tends to not want to use it as often because it enjoys being spikes immune.

The 'threats' that it needs to fall back on for support are weavile, kyurem, meow, walking wake and waterpon, and even then wellspring is not ko'ing it from full and is getting toxiced. Everything else is walled. I know that they function very differently, but the similarity is that they are primarily defensive mons. Gliscor can act as utility, but it can also be a progress maker that can sweep (sd mainly, but there are a few agility sets as well). Garg is one of the best stealth rockers is a fine opinion to have, I think lando-t is the best but oh well.
+1 0 Atk Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 226-266 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope, garg is not beating ghold. Reminder, that curse is a status move so it won't affect ghold (from what I remember). Plus, ghold usually has air balloon, so it will be able to come in on e-quake. Sure, if it tera's then it can beat it but it has to be tera water, tera fairy is just as weak to it and tera ghost (which is the set you are proposing more) is ko'd with chip by +2 ghold make it rain.
The reason why I'm saying that gliscor can take on offensive mons and have tera was specifically in relation to weavile, a mon which should hard counter it. Compare that to garg, who was to tera against many more common mons that threaten it. Gliscor doesn't have to tera against the vast majority of offensive mons, whereas garg, while being good against a lot of offensive mons, has to tera in order to wall a large variety of offensive mons. It's been called a tera sink, and while I think that's a bit harsh, there is some truth to it. It commonly has to tera, and that is an issue.

No offense but this is a rather uncharitable and somewhat misrepresentative listing. Serp, Wellspring, Meow (who is pretty mid anyways but), Landorus-T hate switching in to salt cure. Even Rillaboom and Zama don't enjoy it (the former especially with hazards up). Here is a game where Garg exerts constant pressure after Darkrai tricked its scarf and was able to Curse up and essentially win despite the presence of Wellspring.

Yes, no mons like to switch into salt cure, but they can aggresively threaten it out. That is what I am saying, especially with the secondary list. They don't like switching in, but its not the end of the world, they can still threaten the opposing team a lot. Even offensive mons switch into moves that do 20% commonly, even though they resist it. Serp has lefties most of the time, that offsets some of the damage. Wellspring is more problematic for it, but tera water sets (which are used the most) are threatened by power whip. Similar situation with meow (yes, its mid, but it is OU so it is worth mentioning) except it doesn't take 25%. Lando-T I have mentioned before, and the common earth power ignores the defense boosts. The game in question, while showing good garg execution, doesn't raise the bar for me. Garg was easily the win condition, and darkrai could chip it down with dark pulses to let wellspring ko it. Them switching out darkrai is exactly what I'm talking about, garg punishes passivity and that darkrai switch was being passive. They should have taken the damage and chipped the threat. It wasn't going to do much in that match anyways, valiant threatens dragapult and glowking is threatened by ceruledge. That was a misplay by the opponent.

Especially for offense taking that chip, 25% is a LOT and those mons are tasked with either threatening stuff (darkrai, kingambit) or checking stuff over a game (gambit, kyurem, primarina). None of them having recovery makes the chip much more substantial especially with hazards. I feel like your underselling or underestimating just how easily a well played Garg can stick around and fire off salt cure over and over.

Offense can take that chip because they are playing at a faster pace. Slower teams? Yes, 25% is a lot. However, stuff like darkrai is used more on offense. Kingambit while wanting to stay at high health, doesn't have to be in tip-top condition in order to sweep. Kyurem doesn't check much, it blasts things itself. Maybe it's because you consider it an offensive check, but as a defensive one its not doing as much. Primarina has draining kiss for recovery, and it can recover a lot of hp with it after a boost.
Maybe I'm underselling it a bit, but my main point was that garg is overrated, it's not a top tier mon, it's a great mon, but not close to being broken. I think you are also overselling the salt cure damage, it's decent damage, but as I have stated before, you take the chip, and threaten it back offensively. Can you make a team that supports garg and do well with it? Yes, yes you can. But, the support it needs, which is not insignificant because it can't perform its job well enough alone, is enough in my eyes to bring it down. Stuff like the tera ghost curse set is interesting, and I may try it out for myself, but that's not enough for me.

 

[MegaScizor32]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

Funny you say that just as I just finished sweeping some guy with my tera blast dragon Volcarona lol

 

[Heatranator]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

I will be voting no ban if volc is being suspected because I want Heatran to have more things it can counter. /Jk

 

[Bold School]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

Thanks for the update. We already knew about Wellspring, more or less. It's kinda cool knowing that Volcorona and Tera Blast were on the radar after I said something about it, coincidental or not. Either way, I am looking forward to coming developments.

Funny you say that just as I just finished sweeping some guy with my tera blast dragon Volcarona lol

I will say that I have begun to hate facing Tera Dragon Volc, though this is purely a separate matter from anything I said about it before. It just seems to do well into a lot of my teams.

 

[Avira]

Heatran loses to Volcarona more often than not 'cause Tera Ground (murders it) and Tera Dragon (can stall it out of Magma Storm PP by using Morning Sun whenever Taunt is not active) both beat it. Just chip the Heatran beforehand with Spikes. Some Volcarona counter Heatran is.

 

[Heatranator]

Thanks for the update. We already knew about Wellspring, more or less. It's kinda cool knowing that Volcorona and Tera Blast were on the radar after I said something about it, coincidental or not. Either way, I am looking forward to coming developments.



I will say that I have begun to hate facing Tera Dragon Volc, though this is purely a separate matter from anything I said about it before. It just seems to do well into a lot of my teams.

Use tera fairy blast Heatran, goated set that destroys a lot of teams.
In other news, has anybody else been making their mons reach 220 speed? I've done that for said tera fairy blast Heatran, and it really is amazing. I have also done it for specific mons (primarina comes to mind).

Heatran loses to Volcarona more often than not 'cause Tera Ground (murders it) and Tera Dragon (can stall it out of Magma Storm PP by using Morning Sun whenever Taunt is not active) both beat it. Some Volcarona check Heatran is.

Tera ground does murder it, but volc would love to run anything else, but has to specifically for Heatran. That means Heatran's mere presence is encouraging it's usage, meaning more mons can beat it. Also, tera dragon sets are beaten by tera fairy Heatran.
So yeah, Heatran is definitely a volc check (I would say counter, but oh well).

 

[RainWaiv]

Heatran loses to Volcarona more often than not 'cause Tera Ground (murders it) and Tera Dragon (can stall it out of Magma Storm PP by using Morning Sun whenever Taunt is not active) both beat it. Some Volcarona check Heatran is.

Still, being able to force a tera still has some value as Volc's common tera types are just as riddled with weaknesses as base volc is. If you've got something in the back that can kill Volc consistently under tera, Heatran will still be a good tool against volc.

 

[Moyashi]

+1 0 Atk Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 226-266 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope, garg is not beating ghold. Reminder, that curse is a status move so it won't affect ghold (from what I remember). Plus, ghold usually has air balloon, so it will be able to come in on e-quake. Sure, if it tera's then it can beat it but it has to be tera water, tera fairy is just as weak to it and tera ghost (which is the set you are proposing more) is ko'd with chip by +2 ghold make it rain.

Curse+EQ Garg is typically water, which dominates Ghold.

Them switching out darkrai is exactly what I'm talking about, garg punishes passivity and that darkrai switch was being passive. They should have taken the damage and chipped the threat. It wasn't going to do much in that match anyways, valiant threatens dragapult and glowking is threatened by ceruledge. That was a misplay by the opponent.

That's not what passivity means. They're trying to get around Salt Cure with pivoting and predicting, which is typically how teams want to dance around it. And Darkrai struggles to put pressure on spdef Garg (the set in the replay) as dark pulse is rather weak. I'm not sure what you're critiquing about things that didn't get used that game. Pult came in once to eat the trick and Glowking wasn't even sent out. Garg set up and won once the main threat (trick darkrai) was used up.

Offense can take that chip because they are playing at a faster pace. Slower teams? Yes, 25% is a lot. However, stuff like darkrai is used more on offense. Kingambit while wanting to stay at high health, doesn't have to be in tip-top condition in order to sweep. Kyurem doesn't check much, it blasts things itself. Maybe it's because you consider it an offensive check, but as a defensive one its not doing as much. Primarina has draining kiss for recovery, and it can recover a lot of hp with it after a boost.
Maybe I'm underselling it a bit, but my main point was that garg is overrated, it's not a top tier mon, it's a great mon, but not close to being broken. I think you are also overselling the salt cure damage, it's decent damage, but as I have stated before, you take the chip, and threaten it back offensively. Can you make a team that supports garg and do well with it? Yes, yes you can. But, the support it needs, which is not insignificant because it can't perform its job well enough alone, is enough in my eyes to bring it down. Stuff like the tera ghost curse set is interesting, and I may try it out for myself, but that's not enough for me.

Kyurem is used to offensively check offensive waters and grasses. Unboosted draining kiss is not offsetting Salt Cure especially vs protect versions of Garg, and it can easily pivot to teammates to draw out more salt cure chip on mons that try to damage it. That's what makes Garg strong in particular in such cases. Again, almost no man can do its job well enough on its own. That's part of teambuilding and Garg forms great cores with a number of mons to accentuate its strengths. It's not one of the best mons in the tier atm, but it very much is a relevant and strong threat that has been rightly making some waves as of late.

i'll just end it here so we don't keep going back and forth (nice friendly discussion btw).

 

[Avira]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

Thanks for being transparent, Finch.

I'm guessing if there is a suspect coming it'll be a Volcarona suspect as not even half of the qualified playerbase wants action on Tera, which makes suspecting or quickbanning Tera Blast untenable. Ogerpon-Wellspring having plenty of offensive counterplay probably means there's no chance of it getting banned when no ban this generation has gone ahead without the backing of offense players, so I do believe Volcarona is a better suspect target than Ogerpon-Wellspring since testing Ogerpon-Wellspring would mean another 40-46% Ban (DNB verdict) margin, whereas a Volcarona suspect would be more uncertain even if that also might not meet the ban threshold.

 

[SittinGamer]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

You guys have the chance to do the funniest thing ever, electric boogaloo edition.


This is not a real suggestion.

 

[Heatranator]

You guys have the chance to do the funniest thing ever, electric boogaloo edition.


This is not a real suggestion.

Nope, do it.
Though if you want a real suggestion, there is a song called "We fucked up", which would be really funny for a title song.

 

[RS25802580]

To add to the Garg discussion…

Alomomola + offensive grass type (Grasspon, Serp, Rillaboom, etc) forms a great anti Garg core. Wish support offsets Salt Cure chip and allows the offensive mon to consistently switch into Garg over the course of the match.

 

[Dhrabb]

Use tera fairy blast Heatran, goated set that destroys a lot of teams.
In other news, has anybody else been making their mons reach 220 speed? I've done that for said tera fairy blast Heatran, and it really is amazing. I have also done it for specific mons (primarina comes to mind).

I tend to use Heatran and Rotom Wash a lot and I almost exclusively run 220 speed on them. It's too good to give up imo, the biggest factor being getting the jump on Jolly Kingambit and random stuff trying to creep it. Even on Ttar which I also use a lot I almost alway go max speed (221) and it comes up so often.

 

[Tio Chico]

Although they are technically a move and a mechanic, Tera Blast and Terastal have a working coalition that makes it very difficult not to consider a possible ban of Tera Blast as a partial nerf in Terastal, defining a mischaracterization of the mechanic itself. If we never had support before (swallowing the tears about the 59%), I don't see the time now to take a partial approach.
Between Volcarona (and any other mon) vs Tera Blast, keep move and suspect the abuser. Probably get a bunch of DNB (not me) for "my fav mon" reasons.
I don't even know if I'm interested in looking for requirements in a metagame that I don't like (I still care and hope for improvements to the point of making posts), just being transparent about my vision.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Not every Pokémon dominates the meta even with Tera Blast. The existence of "Tera Hogs" means that Tera Blast isn't the issue and it's just Volcarona. I'd support a Volcarona test but not Tera Blast

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

it's important to note that, although there are many mons that run tera blast a notable amount and i've gone over that before, only a few mons run it the majority of the time. in ou proper, there are exactly two mons that run tera blast over 50% of the time (according to the march 1695 stats): volcarona and serperior. now, there are a lot of differences between those two mons, the chief one being that serperior is extremely mid (despite how terrified we all were of it with tera stellar, myself included). so if there's a mon in ou leaning that heavily on tera blast and it isn't even close to broken, isn't that just a living, breathing example of why tera blast isn't a universally broken move? i suggest we ban volc if anything

 

[EpicGuy321]

Hey chat! Weather’s funny out right now. I just got a bunch of snow! Anyway, I’m back with a cool new set, after giving up on Grass Knot Kingambit and just running SD instead.



Puff (Dragonite) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Outrage

Tera Fire grants you a burn immunity, allowing you to avoid punishment from Volcarona or the occasional Moltres. It also powers up Fire Punch, good for that STUPID metal bird (). Tera Fire also resists Ice, flipping the Kyurem matchup and allowing you to OHKO with Outrage. Speaking of Outrage, at +1 it comfortably 2HKO’s Garganacl even after Lefties Protect, and it 3HKOs Dondozo after Stealth Rocks, beating the sleeping giant.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 144-171 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Tera Fire Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Kyurem: 452-534 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Fire Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 288-342 (72.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Feel free to use this set and tell me how it goes.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

The council has been discussing Volcarona and Tera Blast a bit internally. We also discussed Wellspring somewhat recently. Not committing to any formal action on anything right now, but just trying to be transparent. I expect the wheels to start turning again at some point in the near future.

I do feel like Tera Blast is what makes most tera abusers so good. Such comes with a move that provides a coverage move for every type in the game. Like yea most of the tera abusers don't actually abuse Tera Blast alongside the coverage, but seeing as tera itself isn't getting banned, maybe banning Tera Blast could sliiiiightly hinder some sets and make some mons manageable after the matter (cough cough Regieleki)

 

[Cheryl.]

And so the cycle begins anew. New suspect with a fair bit of support but once that thread begins, it’ll happen. The lack of tournament wins, the “evolving counterplay” and the feeling that it can be dealt with slowly growing over the week, and then it happens again. Another suspect where the offensive mon doesn’t reach ban requirements. If you want something that’ll be close pick Wogerpon

 

[Avira]

I don't even know if I'm interested in looking for requirements in a metagame that I don't like (I still care and hope for improvements to the point of making posts), just being transparent about my vision.

Don't get discouraged. It's qualified players like yourself that can allow for change to happen. You should definitely get reqs for the next suspect test.